2009 Formula One Season

[rixalex]

  b19bry said:

Piquet jnr was quite happy to deliberately crash to order

How do you know he was happy? I would imagine sacrificing yourself to allow your team mate to bask in glory must be a terribly low moment.

  b19bry said:

I'm sorry I just don't buy the line 'but he was ordered to do it'.

Don't you? I do. Flav is a powerful man and he was holding Piquet's future in his hands. Yes he should have defied his boss, but i understand as a 20 odd year old man how difficult it would have been for him. And as far as his father is concerned, we don't know if Piquet Jnr consulted with him when this situation arose.

  b19bry said:

Having been willing participants to this act, both Piquet's kept their mouths shut so long as it suited them. They only revealed the truth once they felt it was to their advantage. If Jnr had not been sacked they would still be maintaining their silence.

I hardly see this as 'doing the right thing' !

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and we'll have to wait to see who's right about Jnr's future in F1.

Irregardless of the motives, you have to give some reward to people who come forward and confess. If you treat them exactly the same as people who continue to lie, cover-up and deny any wrong-doing, what incentive is there for people to come clean? None. So you are basically saying that anyone who has done wrong is best off keeping their mouth shut.

Of course they shouldn't have done wrong in the first place but the world is not a perfect place and Formula One is no exception. If we want the sport cleaned up that has to start with people speaking. Your idea does nothing to encourage that.

[wackysleet]

  rixalex said:

  b19bry said:

Piquet jnr was quite happy to deliberately crash to order

How do you know he was happy? I would imagine sacrificing yourself to allow your team mate to bask in glory must be a terribly low moment.

  b19bry said:

I'm sorry I just don't buy the line 'but he was ordered to do it'.

Don't you? I do. Flav is a powerful man and he was holding Piquet's future in his hands. Yes he should have defied his boss, but i understand as a 20 odd year old man how difficult it would have been for him. And as far as his father is concerned, we don't know if Piquet Jnr consulted with him when this situation arose.

  b19bry said:

Having been willing participants to this act, both Piquet's kept their mouths shut so long as it suited them. They only revealed the truth once they felt it was to their advantage. If Jnr had not been sacked they would still be maintaining their silence.

I hardly see this as 'doing the right thing' !

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and we'll have to wait to see who's right about Jnr's future in F1.

Irregardless of the motives, you have to give some reward to people who come forward and confess. If you treat them exactly the same as people who continue to lie, cover-up and deny any wrong-doing, what incentive is their for people to come clean? None. So you are basically saying that anyone who has done wrong is best off keeping their mouth shut.

Of course they shouldn't have done wrong in the first place but the world is not a perfect place and Formula One is no exception. If we want the sport cleaned up that has to start with people speaking. Your idea does nothing to encourage that.

rixalex, having read your post it has caused me to rethink my views on the subject and yes your right there has to be mitigating circumstances in a case like this but with regards to Shumachers tactics in the past then I think he was blatently cheating and should have been dealt severely with and banned, Senna also.

[rixalex]

  wackysleet said:

with regards to Shumachers tactics in the past then I think he was blatently cheating and should have been dealt severely with and banned, Senna also.

Schumacher in my opinion should have been punished on a number of occasions. Banned, i'm not so sure. Are you talking about a life-time ban?

His biggest misdemeanor i think was taking out Hill to win the Driver's title. It was complete madness that he was allowed to do this. Makes my blood boil to this day. He should have been scratched from that season and banned for the next. Instead he gets no punishment, and lo and behold tries the same stunt on Villeneuve. In fact if i had my way, all these years on, i would take that title from him and hand it to its rightful owner.

What in your opinion Wacky was Senna's biggest crime that deserved a ban?

[wackysleet]

  rixalex said:

  wackysleet said:

with regards to Shumachers tactics in the past then I think he was blatently cheating and should have been dealt severely with and banned, Senna also.

Schumacher in my opinion should have been punished on a number of occasions. Banned, i'm not so sure. Are you talking about a life-time ban?

His biggest misdemeanor i think was taking out Hill to win the Driver's title. It was complete madness that he was allowed to do this. Makes my blood boil to this day. He should have been scratched from that season and banned for the next. Instead he gets no punishment, and lo and behold tries the same stunt on Villeneuve. In fact if i had my way, all these years on, i would take that title from him and hand it to its rightful owner.

What in your opinion Wacky was Senna's biggest crime that deserved a ban?

Actually rixalex I think Prost was almost as bad as Senna but lacked his arrogance and possibly his skill.

Prost actually took Senna out of the Japanese GP in 1989 by contentiously side swiping Senna while both drivers were under contract to Maclaren, at the end of the season Prost moved to Ferrari and again at the Japanese GP Senna deliberately did the same thing to Prost and said it was accidental but 12 months later he admitted that he had lied, now from my point of view any driver that engages in acts that could deliberately cause an accident and possibly death has no place in the sport but as we have seen, the big crowd drawing names appear to write their own rules. .

[b19bry]

  rixalex said:

How do you know he was happy? I would imagine sacrificing yourself to allow your team mate to bask in glory must be a terribly low moment.

OK maybe 'happy' was the wrong word to use here, what I mean't was he agreed to go along with the plan which by default means he was complicit to it.

  rixalex said:

Don't you? I do. Flav is a powerful man and he was holding Piquet's future in his hands. Yes he should have defied his boss, but i understand as a 20 odd year old man how difficult it would have been for him. And as far as his father is concerned, we don't know if Piquet Jnr consulted with him when this situation arose.

I'm not saying I don't believe he was ordered, I'm saying merely the fact he was ordered does not absolve him totally of responsibility for what he did as you appear to suggest.

As far as his father is concerned my understanding is he was consulted by Jnr at an early stage.

  rixalex said:

Irregardless of the motives, you have to give some reward to people who come forward and confess. If you treat them exactly the same as people who continue to lie, cover-up and deny any wrong-doing, what incentive is there for people to come clean? None. So you are basically saying that anyone who has done wrong is best off keeping their mouth shut.

Of course they shouldn't have done wrong in the first place but the world is not a perfect place and Formula One is no exception. If we want the sport cleaned up that has to start with people speaking. Your idea does nothing to encourage that.

If we want the sport cleaned up we should start by not formulating and carrying out such plans in the first place.

I think it was wrong for anybody to go along with the idea for whatever reasons, I also think it was wrong to have kept it hidden for so long. The point is the Piquet's would have kept their mouths shut to this day if it had suited them, I don't see much merit in the way they have conducted themselves. They only revealed the truth as part of a personal vendetta.

As I said we'll have to agree to disagree.

[b19bry]

  rixalex said:

  wackysleet said:

with regards to Shumachers tactics in the past then I think he was blatently cheating and should have been dealt severely with and banned, Senna also.

Schumacher in my opinion should have been punished on a number of occasions. Banned, i'm not so sure. Are you talking about a life-time ban?

His biggest misdemeanor i think was taking out Hill to win the Driver's title. It was complete madness that he was allowed to do this. Makes my blood boil to this day. He should have been scratched from that season and banned for the next. Instead he gets no punishment, and lo and behold tries the same stunt on Villeneuve. In fact if i had my way, all these years on, i would take that title from him and hand it to its rightful owner.

What in your opinion Wacky was Senna's biggest crime that deserved a ban?

Maybe deliberately launching his car into Prost off the grid at Suzuka in 90 ?

Both Senna and Schumacher have a lot to answer for for the current state cheating/subterfuge in F1.

[wackysleet]

  b19bry said:

  rixalex said:

  wackysleet said:

with regards to Shumachers tactics in the past then I think he was blatently cheating and should have been dealt severely with and banned, Senna also.

Schumacher in my opinion should have been punished on a number of occasions. Banned, i'm not so sure. Are you talking about a life-time ban?

His biggest misdemeanor i think was taking out Hill to win the Driver's title. It was complete madness that he was allowed to do this. Makes my blood boil to this day. He should have been scratched from that season and banned for the next. Instead he gets no punishment, and lo and behold tries the same stunt on Villeneuve. In fact if i had my way, all these years on, i would take that title from him and hand it to its rightful owner.

What in your opinion Wacky was Senna's biggest crime that deserved a ban?

Maybe deliberately launching his car into Prost off the grid at Suzuka in 90 ?

Both Senna and Schumacher have a lot to answer for for the current state cheating/subterfuge in F1.

See my post 544, wacky.

[b19bry]

  wackysleet said:

  b19bry said:

  rixalex said:

  wackysleet said:

with regards to Shumachers tactics in the past then I think he was blatently cheating and should have been dealt severely with and banned, Senna also.

Schumacher in my opinion should have been punished on a number of occasions. Banned, i'm not so sure. Are you talking about a life-time ban?

His biggest misdemeanor i think was taking out Hill to win the Driver's title. It was complete madness that he was allowed to do this. Makes my blood boil to this day. He should have been scratched from that season and banned for the next. Instead he gets no punishment, and lo and behold tries the same stunt on Villeneuve. In fact if i had my way, all these years on, i would take that title from him and hand it to its rightful owner.

What in your opinion Wacky was Senna's biggest crime that deserved a ban?

Maybe deliberately launching his car into Prost off the grid at Suzuka in 90 ?

Both Senna and Schumacher have a lot to answer for for the current state cheating/subterfuge in F1.

See my post 544, wacky.

I remember clearly and saw both incidents as they happened on live TV and many times since.

The earlier incident was just that and no more, i.e. a 'racing incident'. The latter was clearly, and later admitted to be, a pre-meditated act (i.e. cheating).

[rixalex]

  b19bry said:

I'm saying merely the fact he was ordered does not absolve him totally of responsibility for what he did as you appear to suggest.

I've never supported him being absolved of all responsibility. Just take into consideration the fact that he was a young employee who was acting under orders. Should he have defied them? Yes. Would any other young struggling driver have done the same? Probably yes. Alex Yoong certainly would have done.

He had the weight of the team, the weight of Flav and the weight of a demanding World Champion on his shoulders. And unlike that lot, the plan involved putting himself at risk of injury - others too of course, but not Flav who was safely sat behind his monitor in the pits.

  b19bry said:

As far as his father is concerned my understanding is he was consulted by Jnr at an early stage.

Whether it was early or not makes little difference. The crucial part here is was is before or after the race? If it was before then it is indeed a terrible shame that he didn't stand up to Flav. If it was after, i guess there was little he could do. Come on, how many parents would rat on their son? Be realistic.

  b19bry said:

If we want the sport cleaned up we should start by not formulating and carrying out such plans in the first place.

That's fine for the future of the sport. But that's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about things that have already occured. For those to come to light we need the veil of secrecy to be lifted. How do we do that if we are saying that anyone who blows the whistle will be history.

And speaking of people being history, your comment about seeing in the future who was right about Piquet being unemployable is a moot point, because if he never drives in F1 again, how will we know the reasons why. Alonso tried to blackmail his team and that didn't stop him finding a new drive. Lewis lied and cheated after the Aus GP, but if he left McClaren tomorrow, do you think he would have trouble finding a new drive? I don't think so.

If Piquet's career is over i think it will have much more to do with the fact that he isn't fast or consistent enough - sure this episode doesn't help, but you can bet, if he is considered a good driver and if the FIA doesn't ban him, he will find a seat. I however have my doubts on both those issues.

I myself would like to see him given another chance though. That's just me.

[wackysleet]

I almost forgot about Senna's attempt at squeezing Prost into the wall at Estoril in 1988. .

[b19bry]

  rixalex said:

the plan involved putting himself at risk of injury - others too of course,

Which he agreed to......

  rixalex said:

Whether it was early or not makes little difference. The crucial part here is was is before or after the race?

It makes all the difference and maybe the parent should have provided better guidance in the first place ?

  rixalex said:

That's fine for the future of the sport. But that's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about things that have already occured. For those to come to light we need the veil of secrecy to be lifted. How do we do that if we are saying that anyone who blows the whistle will be history.

And speaking of people being history, your comment about seeing in the future who was right about Piquet being unemployable is a moot point, because if he never drives in F1 again, how will we know the reasons why. Alonso tried to blackmail his team and that didn't stop him finding a new drive. Lewis lied and cheated after the Aus GP, but if he left McClaren tomorrow, do you think he would have trouble finding a new drive? I don't think so.

If Piquet's career is over i think it will have much more to do with the fact that he isn't fast or consistent enough - sure this episode doesn't help, but you can bet, if he is considered a good driver and if the FIA doesn't ban him, he will find a seat. I however have my doubts on both those issues.

I myself would like to see him given another chance though. That's just me.

And I myself think he's blown any chance he had. That's just me.

[b19bry]

  wackysleet said:

I almost forgot about Senna's attempt at squeezing Prost into the wall at Estoril in 1988. .

I don't think Prost has forgotten it to this day !

[rixalex]

  b19bry said:

And I myself think he's blown any chance he had. That's just me.

As i said, i'm inclined to agree - just for different reasons.

[wackysleet]

  b19bry said:

  wackysleet said:

I almost forgot about Senna's attempt at squeezing Prost into the wall at Estoril in 1988. .

I don't think Prost has forgotten it to this day !

This debate about The Flav, Symonds and of course the Piquets reminds us that cheating in the sport even in the way of ungentlemanly conduct is nothing new but retribution other than the slap on the wrist that Michael got eludes me .

[b19bry]

  wackysleet said:

  b19bry said:

  wackysleet said:

I almost forgot about Senna's attempt at squeezing Prost into the wall at Estoril in 1988. .

I don't think Prost has forgotten it to this day !

This debate about The Flav, Symonds and of course the Piquets reminds us that cheating in the sport even in the way of ungentlemanly conduct is nothing new but retribution other than the slap on the wrist that Michael got eludes me .

Sadly I believe the FIA's complete lack of action on blatant cheaters/cheating from the late 80's early 90's brought us to the current situation in F1

[b19bry]

  rixalex said:

  b19bry said:

And I myself think he's blown any chance he had. That's just me.

As i said, i'm inclined to agree - just for different reasons.

Well at least we can almost agree on something !

[rixalex]

  b19bry said:

  rixalex said:

  b19bry said:

And I myself think he's blown any chance he had. That's just me.

As i said, i'm inclined to agree - just for different reasons.

Well at least we can almost agree on something !

Hey mate, i get enough rolling eyes from the women in my life thanks.

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8260479.stm

Mr Irvine confirms exactly what you guys have been saying - except for him it's just part of the sport.

[wackysleet]

  rixalex said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8260479.stm

Mr Irvine confirms exactly what you guys have been saying - except for him it's just part of the sport.

[/quote

You know, the sad thing about all this is surely the magnitude of it all, we know from recent experiences that there are people, ie drivers that cheat but if Irvine is right it would appear almost to be endemic within the sport and encompasses all team members.

I said in a previous post that I thought Renault will be dealt with in a fairly lenient way because of the possibility of them leaving F1 and the engine supply that would go with them and even though we are told who will be on the grid next season in the way of newcomers I still think they need the big names to pull in the sponsorship and the audiences.

rixalex you said in an earlier post that a lot of people in the business complained about the Piquets spilling the beans, if Irvine is right we now know why, they were upto their necks in it.

[rixalex]

  wackysleet said:

rixalex you said in an earlier post that a lot of people in the business complained about the Piquets spilling the beans, if Irvine is right we now know why, they were upto their necks in it.

Absolutely. What shocked me was the outrage i was hearing had more to do with the way Piquet had ratted his team out than the offence him and his team had commited.

[b19bry]

  rixalex said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8260479.stm

Mr Irvine confirms exactly what you guys have been saying - except for him it's just part of the sport.

Unfortunately he's mostly right.

The on track cheating has risen since the late 80's which coincided with cars becoming much safer. Prior to that accidents were much more unpredictable/dangerous.

[TBWG]

  b19bry said:

  rixalex said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8260479.stm

Mr Irvine confirms exactly what you guys have been saying - except for him it's just part of the sport.

Unfortunately he's mostly right.

The on track cheating has risen since the late 80's which coincided with cars becoming much safer. Prior to that accidents were much more unpredictable/dangerous.

I have just read the Eddie Irvine article and have to agree that the FIA are likely to treat Renault leniently... the sport will be worse off without a championship winning team not to mention an alternative engine supplier. Somehow a Campos or Manor team is a poor substitute.

However it will be interesting to see what mitigating circumstances Spanker gives as an explanation as to why Mclaren should warrant a $100 million fine for one of its employees possessing competitors papers compared with a downright race fix endangering lives and getting a lesser penalty.

As for Flav resigning for the good of the company? does he really think we will believe he was not kicked out on his a**e! Got to give him an A* for gall!

TBWG

[wackysleet]

  TBWG said:

  b19bry said:

  rixalex said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8260479.stm

Mr Irvine confirms exactly what you guys have been saying - except for him it's just part of the sport.

Unfortunately he's mostly right.

The on track cheating has risen since the late 80's which coincided with cars becoming much safer. Prior to that accidents were much more unpredictable/dangerous.

I have just read the Eddie Irvine article and have to agree that the FIA are likely to treat Renault leniently... the sport will be worse off without a championship winning team not to mention an alternative engine supplier. Somehow a Campos or Manor team is a poor substitute.

However it will be interesting to see what mitigating circumstances Spanker gives as an explanation as to why Mclaren should warrant a $100 million fine for one of its employees possessing competitors papers compared with a downright race fix endangering lives and getting a lesser penalty.

As for Flav resigning for the good of the company? does he really think we will believe he was not kicked out on his a**e! Got to give him an A* for gall!

TBWG

I found it interesting to read that Renault had been found to have plans of Maclarens car?? Briatore supposedly sacked those responsible I now find that an unlikely scenario with the latest revelations.

[rixalex]

  TBWG said:

Got to give him an A* for gall!

With his penchant for thongs, perhaps an A+ for balls might have been a more appropriate way of putting it!

Regarding your serious point about inevitable comparisons with McClaren's punishment last year, that's a very good point. Renault team's crime is surely much graver, and therefore the punishment should reflect that. $300 million perhaps?

[TBWG]

  rixalex said:

  TBWG said:

Got to give him an A* for gall!

With his penchant for thongs, perhaps an A+ for balls might have been a more appropriate way of putting it!

Regarding your serious point about inevitable comparisons with McClaren's punishment last year, that's a very good point. Renault team's crime is surely much graver, and therefore the punishment should reflect that. $300 million perhaps?

:D

Somehow I think Renault are going to get off likely.

Apparently Dave Richards has been spotted recently at the Brackley Renault factory! Hmm Thats not the actions of a team expecting to be thrown out of the World Championship!

TBWG

[F1fanatic]

  rixalex said:

  b19bry said:

Piquet jnr was quite happy to deliberately crash to order

How do you know he was happy? I would imagine sacrificing yourself to allow your team mate to bask in glory must be a terribly low moment.

  b19bry said:

I'm sorry I just don't buy the line 'but he was ordered to do it'.

Don't you? I do. Flav is a powerful man and he was holding Piquet's future in his hands. Yes he should have defied his boss, but i understand as a 20 odd year old man how difficult it would have been for him. And as far as his father is concerned, we don't know if Piquet Jnr consulted with him when this situation arose.

  b19bry said:

Having been willing participants to this act, both Piquet's kept their mouths shut so long as it suited them. They only revealed the truth once they felt it was to their advantage. If Jnr had not been sacked they would still be maintaining their silence.

I hardly see this as 'doing the right thing' !

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and we'll have to wait to see who's right about Jnr's future in F1.

Irregardless of the motives, you have to give some reward to people who come forward and confess. If you treat them exactly the same as people who continue to lie, cover-up and deny any wrong-doing, what incentive is there for people to come clean? None. So you are basically saying that anyone who has done wrong is best off keeping their mouth shut.

Of course they shouldn't have done wrong in the first place but the world is not a perfect place and Formula One is no exception. If we want the sport cleaned up that has to start with people speaking. Your idea does nothing to encourage that.

Agree with Rivalex here. Whistle blowers must be protected as far as possible as an incentive. Piquet was in a v awkward situation - if he didn't do as asked, he would lose his seat. It sounds petty in the 'real world', but an F1 seat is not something to be given up lightly!

Obviously what he did was wrong - but he will be punished as I find it hard to believe an F1 team will employ him again (largely because he was a rubbish driver!). If he was a good driver, I prefer to think he would be able to find another drive.

As for Senna/Schumacher tactics in the past, we have to remember that back in those days it was not considered the way it is now. When Senna took Prost out, nobody had a problem with it. When Schumi took Hill out in 94(?) - at the time even Hill didn't say anything detrimental about the incident. It was only after the Villneuve incident Hill started saying he was taken out in the race.It was gradually becoming more unacceptable, and when Schumi tried to take Villneuve out it was finally decided that this was no longer acceptable in F1. ALL teams (and drivers) push the limits until they're finally declared unacceptable!

[TBWG]

Now this is an interesting article! .... http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php

Just hope they don't wish to part Flav from his tackle!

TBWG

[Mosha]

Perhaps they should consider a move into stock car racing.

[rixalex]

  F1fanatic said:

Whistle blowers must be protected as far as possible as an incentive. Piquet was in a v awkward situation - if he didn't do as asked, he would lose his seat. It sounds petty in the 'real world', but an F1 seat is not something to be given up lightly!

Obviously what he did was wrong - but he will be punished as I find it hard to believe an F1 team will employ him again (largely because he was a rubbish driver!). If he was a good driver, I prefer to think he would be able to find another drive.

Agree with all of that.

  F1fanatic said:

When Schumi took Hill out in 94(?) - at the time even Hill didn't say anything detrimental about the incident. It was only after the Villneuve incident Hill started saying he was taken out in the race.

Not true. Hill is a true old-school British gentleman and as such he didn't get hysterical after getting taken out in Australia by Schumi - nor did he rush to confront him wagging fingers or shaking fists - that's just not his style. He's a quietly spoken and thoughtful individual. When asked his opinion at the time about what happened he refused to throw about any accusations but simply told people to watch the replay and decide for themselves. It was obvious exactly what Hill thought, but he was trying to be gracious. It was this side of his personality that stopped him from being a more successful driver.

  F1fanatic said:

and when Schumi tried to take Villneuve out it was finally decided that this was no longer acceptable in F1.

If that were true, why did Schumi not get punished for it? Because his cheating this time was unsuccessful?

[Mosha]

It looks like William's will need a new sponsor next season.

http://malaysianinsider.com/index.php/mala...nto-formula-one

Noticed also a link on that page FB is laying the blame on Symonds. Well he would wouldn't he.