2009 Formula One Season

[wackysleet]

Kimi for sure will demand and get the same service than Lewis.

There are some who might contest that. There are some who would say if Alonso couldn't demand it, how will Kimi?

I'm not one of those. I believe that initially Alonso was given completely equal treatment. It was only after it became obvious that Alonso would be changing teams that the team swung behind Lewis.

So i agree with you that Kimi will be treated equally if he does go to McClaren.

Will he be fast? Well Kimi has shown that he is doing a great job in qualifying by completely outpacing both Badoer and Fisi. Badoer not such a surprise but i think more was expected of Fisi.

In the race though, as we saw in Singapore, Kimi remains an inconsistent driver. When the chips are down and when he's not running up front he just lacks motivation to push.

He's also a driver in the twilight of his career.

For these reasons, it's not a great signing for McClaren in my opinion. They should be going for up and coming talent. Why not make a swoop for Vettel? He's surely proven himself as the thing of the future. People talk about him being a future Ferrari driver, but why not McClaren? He might actually be someone who can give Lewis a run for his money.

I think with the promise Vettel has shown since he came into F1 he's certainly capable of giving anyone a run for his money and it would be nice to see him with a really competative car for next season whatever the team he's with.

[rixalex]

I think with the promise Vettel has shown since he came into F1 he's certainly capable of giving anyone a run for his money and it would be nice to see him with a really competative car for next season whatever the team he's with.

Agreed.

Although as far as competitive cars go, lets not forget he's not done too badly this season.

Obviously a few races remaining, but i feel confident that when the season is over and when we look at which cars were strongest on average throughout, the Red Bulls are right up there and if not for a bit more luck combined with a bit more reliability and a touch more savy from both the team and the drivers, they really could have taken the ultimate prize this year. They might not ever have had a better chance. It's not often that both Ferrari and McClaren produce such terrible cars for the first half of a season.

[wackysleet]

I think with the promise Vettel has shown since he came into F1 he's certainly capable of giving anyone a run for his money and it would be nice to see him with a really competative car for next season whatever the team he's with.

Agreed.

Although as far as competitive cars go, lets not forget he's not done too badly this season.

Obviously a few races remaining, but i feel confident that when the season is over and when we look at which cars were strongest on average throughout, the Red Bulls are right up there and if not for a bit more luck combined with a bit more reliability and a touch more savy from both the team and the drivers, they really could have taken the ultimate prize this year. They might not ever have had a better chance. It's not often that both Ferrari and McClaren produce such terrible cars for the first half of a season.

I have been a fan of Vettel since he started, he conducts himself very well and in the past having made a mistake admits it, as for Maclaren and Ferrari what can you say, started off badly and since have been on and off the pace not at all consistant.

Red Bull have certainly improved this season but what has happened with Torro Rosso apart from there crap engines, perhaps 2010 will see a change of engine supplier and share developement with Red Bull again.

Cannot see Jenson leaving Brawn as I'm not sure that he would be offered as competative ride as he now has from another team and anyway they all look to be ready to announce their drivers and as much as I like him really don't think he would be on many teams must have list, world champion or not.

[rixalex]

Alonso wants to emulate Schumacher.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8284248.stm

"It is the most famous, most popular team in the world and you become a legend when you drive that car whatever the performance is."

Badoer is a legend?!!!

"Ferrari is more important than any driver in that car."

Does he really believe that?! I don't think Schumacher did.

[rixalex]

Another interesting article here, most of which i agree with:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/20...uld_herald.html

[F1fanatic]

rixalex, I actually stand by my original comment that he must have known, if in fact he was innocent then he unfairly had the seasons points disallowed.

OK. So Brundle was punished. I thought what you were saying is that Brundle was previously involved in cheating (do we need to add allegedly?), but wasn't punished - and therefore for him to level a similar accusation at Alonso as he did by using the term Teflonso, was hypocritical.

even the secret witness made no reference to him,

Maybe because, as you yourself have previously speculated, he himself was the secret witness.

if there are skeletons in Alonso's cupboard then for sure they will come out.

Unless the skeletons (should they exist), come out fairly soon, it'll probably means he gets away with anything he might have done wrong.

If for example, in six or seven years time when Alonso's career is winding down / over, new evidence comes to light that shows his involvement, it'll be too late to give any sort of meaningful punishment. Punishment has to come whilst a driver still has a career in the sport for it to hurt them.

Like when Schumacher robbed Hill of the title (sorry for returning to my hobby-horse!), the time to punish him was right then. Doing anything about it now might give Hill, myself and a few others some satisfaction, but he probably wouldn't be too bothered.

At the time it happened, Schumacher was too big and powerful to be acted against. Nobody could stand up to him. He was protected. Maybe now Alonso also enjoys a degree of protection - not to the extent of Schumacher i would say, but there could be an element of that going on.

When Schumi took out Hill he was not anywhere close to being big and powerful! That came years later when he became a multiple world champion.

Let's not forget that when Schumi took out Hill a) even Hill didn't complain at the time and it was not unheard of - remember when Senna took out Prost and Prost took out Senna? It only became unacceptable as time went on.

I've got nothing against Alonso as I think he's the best driver on the grid at the moment. BUT I'm sure he's a bad match for Ferrari. He's not a 'team' player and will expect the sort of support Schumi received. Somehow I think it will not be forthcoming (at engineer level) as they love Massa. Luca may do his best to ensure no 1 status, but will the rest of the team?

My crystal ball tells me Alonso will throw a wobbly at some point against the team.

[F1fanatic]

Using my crystal ball again , although its accepted wisdom that Kimi's going to Mclaren, I have to wonder.

He hated it there last time and its got to be even worse this time bearing in mind they love Hamilton. (I'm assuming they've finally forgiven Hamilton for 'liargate' and the sacking of Ryan? (sorry, awful I know, but I've forgotten his name!).

Luca brought Kimi into Ferrari at an incredible salary and was proven a fool. (Yes, I know Kimi won the WDC, but it was luck - not due to his incredible performance which was not good at best).

Which brings me back to Alonso , Luca must be desperately trying to prove himself a good judge of drivers after the Kimi fiasco. (Paid a fortune, Massa was either close or beat him - unlike the Schumi days). But will Alonso get the support of the team?

[MJo]

There are some who might contest that. There are some who would say if Alonso couldn't demand it, how will Kimi?

I'm not one of those. I believe that initially Alonso was given completely equal treatment. It was only after it became obvious that Alonso would be changing teams that the team swung behind Lewis.

So i agree with you that Kimi will be treated equally if he does go to McClaren.

Will he be fast? Well Kimi has shown that he is doing a great job in qualifying by completely outpacing both Badoer and Fisi. Badoer not such a surprise but i think more was expected of Fisi.

In the race though, as we saw in Singapore, Kimi remains an inconsistent driver. When the chips are down and when he's not running up front he just lacks motivation to push.

He's also a driver in the twilight of his career.

For these reasons, it's not a great signing for McClaren in my opinion. They should be going for up and coming talent. Why not make a swoop for Vettel? He's surely proven himself as the thing of the future. People talk about him being a future Ferrari driver, but why not McClaren? He might actually be someone who can give Lewis a run for his money.

Your propably right with Alonso in McLaren and i think the main issue was in the end between him and Ron Dennis after he was about to leave. There has been rumors that Dennis was one of the reasons why Kimi left the team. He wanted to shape Kimi to same format as he did with Hakkinen.

Kimi indeed has limited number of years left but still if you look the results of last 5 races he's the man who has scored most points. More than Lewis, Red bull and Brawn guys and he has done that with far slower car compared to the others. Early in the season he might have not been there motivation wise but that has changed long ago. UK media though likes to pick on him still not willing to recognize the good races lately. Maybe as they are not able to get interviews from him. But he's just being a finn

For youger guys Vettel would be my first choice together with Rosberg who reportedly was close to get a deal from McLaren but most likely will go to Brawn now if Kimi takes McLaren seat. In any case i belive both are future champions sooner of later given the reliable car to win races.

In any case interesting times, i have really enjoyed this season and hope that it will not be the usual McLaren - Ferrari show next year.

[MJo]

Using my crystal ball again , although its accepted wisdom that Kimi's going to Mclaren, I have to wonder.

He hated it there last time and its got to be even worse this time bearing in mind they love Hamilton. (I'm assuming they've finally forgiven Hamilton for 'liargate' and the sacking of Ryan? (sorry, awful I know, but I've forgotten his name!).

Luca brought Kimi into Ferrari at an incredible salary and was proven a fool. (Yes, I know Kimi won the WDC, but it was luck - not due to his incredible performance which was not good at best).

Which brings me back to Alonso , Luca must be desperately trying to prove himself a good judge of drivers after the Kimi fiasco. (Paid a fortune, Massa was either close or beat him - unlike the Schumi days). But will Alonso get the support of the team?

Your ball seems to be bit foggy

In my opinion after being written off by everyone and then coming behind like that to take championship requires more than luck. I can't now remember anyone who has done it in past 10 or so years. Tru Hamiltons rookie mistakes helped Kimi but it also required some fantastic driving and cool head from his side. That's why he's called the Iceman

Also i believe Hamilton's position in the team is not the same anymore after Ron Dennis left. Now he's in same line with everyone else and just a driver among others. I mean he was Ron's find and good find indeed but the honeymoon period is now over especially when they are not in championship race anymore.

[rixalex]

Let's not forget that when Schumi took out Hill 1) even Hill didn't complain at the time and 2) it was not unheard of - remember when Senna took out Prost and Prost took out Senna? It only became unacceptable as time went on.

1)F1fanatic, did you actually see this race, and if so, did you see the interviews with Damon after it?

He was livid and when asked what his opinion of the incident was, he told people to look at the footage and see for themselves. Beyond that there wasn't much he could do. It was up to the FIA to take action, and they failed to do so.

2) Although i agree those incidents should have been looked at and dealt with in some way, in my opinion they were somewhat less outrageous and blatant. In the case when Schumi took out Hill his car had been damaged and he knew it was impossible for him to finish the race and score any points. Therefore his only way to win the title was to take out Hill. When Senna and Prost did their colliding, although in most people's eyes it probably was deliberate, it was less clear-cut as they still could have won by remaining on the track.

[F1fanatic]

Let's not forget that when Schumi took out Hill 1) even Hill didn't complain at the time and 2) it was not unheard of - remember when Senna took out Prost and Prost took out Senna? It only became unacceptable as time went on.

1)F1fanatic, did you actually see this race, and if so, did you see the interviews with Damon after it?

He was livid and when asked what his opinion of the incident was, he told people to look at the footage and see for themselves. Beyond that there wasn't much he could do. It was up to the FIA to take action, and they failed to do so.

2) Although i agree those incidents should have been looked at and dealt with in some way, in my opinion they were somewhat less outrageous and blatant. In the case when Schumi took out Hill his car had been damaged and he knew it was impossible for him to finish the race and score any points. Therefore his only way to win the title was to take out Hill. When Senna and Prost did their colliding, although in most people's eyes it probably was deliberate, it was less clear-cut as they still could have won by remaining on the track.

Senna admitted to taking Prost out! In fact he said he was going to do so (more or less) before the race!!

Not sure whether Prost admitted it but there's even less doubt than the Schumi/Hill fiasco!

Neither incident was denied as in those days (as I've said before) it was considered part of racing.

Times change and by the time of Schumi/Villneuve, they had changed enough to make it completely unacceptable.

[F1fanatic]

Using my crystal ball again , although its accepted wisdom that Kimi's going to Mclaren, I have to wonder.

He hated it there last time and its got to be even worse this time bearing in mind they love Hamilton. (I'm assuming they've finally forgiven Hamilton for 'liargate' and the sacking of Ryan? (sorry, awful I know, but I've forgotten his name!).

Luca brought Kimi into Ferrari at an incredible salary and was proven a fool. (Yes, I know Kimi won the WDC, but it was luck - not due to his incredible performance which was not good at best).

Which brings me back to Alonso , Luca must be desperately trying to prove himself a good judge of drivers after the Kimi fiasco. (Paid a fortune, Massa was either close or beat him - unlike the Schumi days). But will Alonso get the support of the team?

Your ball seems to be bit foggy

In my opinion after being written off by everyone and then coming behind like that to take championship requires more than luck. I can't now remember anyone who has done it in past 10 or so years. Tru Hamiltons rookie mistakes helped Kimi but it also required some fantastic driving and cool head from his side. That's why he's called the Iceman

Also i believe Hamilton's position in the team is not the same anymore after Ron Dennis left. Now he's in same line with everyone else and just a driver among others. I mean he was Ron's find and good find indeed but the honeymoon period is now over especially when they are not in championship race anymore.

Can't agree. He was paid one hel_l of a lot of money and barely outperformed Massa - in fact Massa had to help him at the end of the season.

Not entirely his fault, as I'm sure it was a difficult car to drive.

Even so, I can't recall any 'fantastic' driving from him that year (and certainly not enough to deserve WDC).

I'm sure there are v few people who don't (at the back of their minds) believe that Schumi would have taken that WDC races ago! Not because Ferrari had the best car, they didn't - but McLaren threw the championship away with the Alonso/Hamilton debacle.

[b19bry]

Let's not forget that when Schumi took out Hill a) even Hill didn't complain at the time and it was not unheard of - remember when Senna took out Prost and Prost took out Senna? It only became unacceptable as time went on.

Not sure how long you've been an F1fanatic but as I (and others) have pointed out to you earlier, you are quite wrong on these points.

Hill was fuming (and rightly so) at the time Shumi took him out but was counselled by others to maintain a dignified silence.

When Senna took Prost out in Japan most people could not believe an F1 driver would do such a dangerous thing on purpose which only a few years earlier would have had serious or fatal consequences. Such a tactic was completely unacceptable then as it is now.

To state that these things were previously acceptable displays an ignorance of F1 in earlier times and the respect that drivers previously had for each other.

I've got nothing against Alonso as I think he's the best driver on the grid at the moment. BUT I'm sure he's a bad match for Ferrari. He's not a 'team' player and will expect the sort of support Schumi received. Somehow I think it will not be forthcoming (at engineer level) as they love Massa. Luca may do his best to ensure no 1 status, but will the rest of the team?

My crystal ball tells me Alonso will throw a wobbly at some point against the team.

Alonso is not just one of the most complete and fastest drivers on the grid, he's in a similar mould to Schumi when it comes to building the team around him. Ultimately Mclaren didn't provide him that opportunity but Ferrari may well be different (they provided such a platform for years for Schumi let's not forget). I expect he will consistently outperform Massa over time.

Edited October 1, 2009 by b19bry

[F1fanatic]

Let's not forget that when Schumi took out Hill a) even Hill didn't complain at the time and it was not unheard of - remember when Senna took out Prost and Prost took out Senna? It only became unacceptable as time went on.

Not sure how long you've been an F1fanatic but as I (and others) have pointed out to you earlier, you are quite wrong on these points.

Hill was fuming (and rightly so) at the time Shumi took him out but was counselled by others to maintain a dignified silence.

When Senna took Prost out in Japan most people could not believe an F1 driver would do such a dangerous thing on purpose which only a few years earlier would have had serious or fatal consequences. Such a tactic was completely unacceptable then as it is now.

To state that these things were previously acceptable displays an ignorance of F1 in earlier times and the respect that drivers previously had for each other.

I've got nothing against Alonso as I think he's the best driver on the grid at the moment. BUT I'm sure he's a bad match for Ferrari. He's not a 'team' player and will expect the sort of support Schumi received. Somehow I think it will not be forthcoming (at engineer level) as they love Massa. Luca may do his best to ensure no 1 status, but will the rest of the team?

My crystal ball tells me Alonso will throw a wobbly at some point against the team.

Alonso is not just one of the most complete and fastest drivers on the grid, he's in a similar mould to Schumi when it comes to building the team around him. Ultimately Mclaren didn't provide him that opportunity but Ferrari may well be different (they provided such a platform for years for Schumi let's not forget). I expect he will consistently outperform Massa over time.

I really don't want to argue - but you can't honestly believe that Senna didn't take Prost out deliberately! He pretty much said he was going to do so before the race. I enjoy discussing F1 contentious issues - but this is not a contentious issue! Come to that, neither is Prost taking Senna out.

Personally, I'm not arguing that Schumi took Hill out - I'm just saying that it happened before and wasn't such a heinous crime at the time that it is now.

As for Alonso, I agree with you to a certain extent. As I've said before, I too think he's the best driver on the grid at the moment. HOWEVER, he's not in the same mould as Schumi cos he's not a team player. If he was he wouldn't have left Renault for Mclaren in 2007. Forget that, he's done nothing that would indicate to anyone that he's a team player. He's always blamed the team when things weren't going his way.

Good racer? Yes. Team player? No.

I suspect that even now, Ferrari support team players.

[b19bry]

I really don't want to argue - but you can't honestly believe that Senna didn't take Prost out deliberately! He pretty much said he was going to do so before the race. I enjoy discussing F1 contentious issues - but this is not a contentious issue! Come to that, neither is Prost taking Senna out.

Personally, I'm not arguing that Schumi took Hill out - I'm just saying that it happened before and wasn't such a heinous crime at the time that it is now.

I can understand you not wanting to argue .

You misunderstand me, Senna deliberately and dangerously took out Prost, that was unbelievable to most F1 people at the time. Senna later admitted it but by that point an admission was superfluous.

The point is both this and the Hill/Schumacher incident were not at all viewed as acceptable at the time as you claim, far from it.

As for Alonso, I agree with you to a certain extent. As I've said before, I too think he's the best driver on the grid at the moment. HOWEVER, he's not in the same mould as Schumi cos he's not a team player. If he was he wouldn't have left Renault for Mclaren in 2007. Forget that, he's done nothing that would indicate to anyone that he's a team player. He's always blamed the team when things weren't going his way.

Good racer? Yes. Team player? No.

I suspect that even now, Ferrari support team players.

I don't understand all this drivel about Schumi being a 'team-player'. The only team Schumi was ever a full member of was 'Team Schumacher'.

I believe there are more similariities between Schumacher and Alonso than you think or care to admit and there's good reasons why Alonso may well prove very succcessful at Ferrari

[F1fanatic]

I really don't want to argue - but you can't honestly believe that Senna didn't take Prost out deliberately! He pretty much said he was going to do so before the race. I enjoy discussing F1 contentious issues - but this is not a contentious issue! Come to that, neither is Prost taking Senna out.

Personally, I'm not arguing that Schumi took Hill out - I'm just saying that it happened before and wasn't such a heinous crime at the time that it is now.

I can understand you not wanting to argue .

You misunderstand me, Senna deliberately and dangerously took out Prost, that was unbelievable to most F1 people at the time. Senna later admitted it but by that point an admission was superfluous.

The point is both this and the Hill/Schumacher incident were not at all viewed as acceptable at the time as you claim, far from it.

As for Alonso, I agree with you to a certain extent. As I've said before, I too think he's the best driver on the grid at the moment. HOWEVER, he's not in the same mould as Schumi cos he's not a team player. If he was he wouldn't have left Renault for Mclaren in 2007. Forget that, he's done nothing that would indicate to anyone that he's a team player. He's always blamed the team when things weren't going his way.

Good racer? Yes. Team player? No.

I suspect that even now, Ferrari support team players.

I don't understand all this drivel about Schumi being a 'team-player'. The only team Schumi was ever a full member of was 'Team Schumacher'.

I believe there are more similariities between Schumacher and Alonso than you think or care to admit and there's good reasons why Alonso may well prove very succcessful at Ferrari

Actually I agree, there are a lot of similarities between Alonso and Schumi inso far as much that they are both determined to win at any cost.

Schumi was a 'team player' in so far as he moved to Ferrari when they were nowhere, and pulled the team around him (along of course, with Brawn and Todt). Together they went thru the 'bad' years - and eventually came out on top.

There's nothing in Alonso's history to support the theory that he's a team player in the same way. He's (so far) always complained when things weren't going his way and moved teams.

p.s. just noticed your comment about the Senna/Prost incident - for some reason its not being shown as a post. As I've said before (sigh), Senna said he was going to do it. It's not a contentious issue, it was the way it was at the time and no-one cared. (Even heavier sigh).

Edited October 1, 2009 by F1fanatic

[rixalex]

The point is both this and the Hill/Schumacher incident were not at all viewed as acceptable at the time as you claim, far from it.

I don't understand all this drivel about Schumi being a 'team-player'. The only team Schumi was ever a full member of was 'Team Schumacher'.

I believe there are more similariities between Schumacher and Alonso than you think or care to admit and there's good reasons why Alonso may well prove very succcessful at Ferrari

Are you intentionally taking words out of my mouth b19bry? Please stop it, it's annoying.

My money is also on Alonso doing well at Ferrari, and picking up at least one Driver's Title (much as it pains me to say!). He'll out-perform Massa whatever, who i personally don't think will last much more than one season, two at the most. Vettel or some young up and coming talent will come in to understudy and play second fiddle to Alonso.

[wackysleet]

f1fanatic

Let's not forget that when Schumi took out Hill a) even Hill didn't complain at the time and it was not unheard of - remember when Senna took out Prost and Prost took out Senna? It only became unacceptable as time went on.

I've got nothing against Alonso as I think he's the best driver on the grid at the moment. BUT I'm sure he's a bad match for Ferrari. He's not a 'team' player and will expect the sort of support Schumi received. Somehow I think it will not be forthcoming (at engineer level) as they love Massa. Luca may do his best to ensure no 1 status, but will the rest of the team?

My crystal ball tells me Alonso will throw a wobbly at some point against the team.

Actually the first incident between these two came in 1989 when they collided with Prost immediately retiring, Senna restarted the race and won, he was then disqualified thus giving the title to Prost

The second incident actually came the following year when without doubt Senna took Prost out, we know because he later admitted it, what most people don't know is that in 1983 while Senna and Brundle were contesting The British Formula 3 championship they collided twice with Senna being fined 200 pounds and his licence endorsed by presumably the FIA, was this the start of a campaign to win at any cost? I mention this in response to your view that it wasn't deemed to serious at the time but in actual fact the FIA? thought it serious enough to hand down some punishment to Senna.

You made a point of saying it is viewed far more seriously now to take another driver out of the equation than previously but I maybe wrong and am prepared to accept anyone that knows differently, when, since Senna took Prost out and of course with Shumacher/Hill/Villeneuve 1994, 1997, has any other driver attempted to take another competitor out of a race, of course the similarities are that in all instances the title was at stake and even the Senna/Brundle battle final outcome being decided in the very last race at Thruxton. .

[rixalex]

1)F1fanatic, did you actually see this race, and if so, did you see the interviews with Damon after it?

Neither incident was denied as in those days (as I've said before) it was considered part of racing.

1) Can you answer my question in bold above?

2) I think you are completely wrong about deliberately crashing into another opponent ever being considered a part of racing. It never has been. Just that in the past it was difficult for anyone to go about proving it. It's still difficult now of course, but i think the regulations have changed in a way that allow the FIA to take action simply on the basis of a driver gaining an advantage, irregardless of whether it was intentional or not.

[F1fanatic]

1)F1fanatic, did you actually see this race, and if so, did you see the interviews with Damon after it?

Neither incident was denied as in those days (as I've said before) it was considered part of racing.

1) Can you answer my question in bold above?

2) I think you are completely wrong about deliberately crashing into another opponent ever being considered a part of racing. It never has been. Just that in the past it was difficult for anyone to go about proving it. It's still difficult now of course, but i think the regulations have changed in a way that allow the FIA to take action simply on the basis of a driver gaining an advantage, irregardless of whether it was intentional or not.

1) At the time - no. Only saw it a couple of years later. I saw the interviews with Damon around the same time.

2) I hate to keep endlessly repeating this, Senna not only admitted after the race that he'd taken Prost out, he said he was going to before-hand.

And you think it wasn't considered acceptable at the time. How long have you been watching F1? If you'd been watching or reading up on the 'old' races, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Unless of course, you're purely a Schumi hater, who is not prepared to discuss anything sensibly.

Edited October 1, 2009 by F1fanatic

[rixalex]

1) At the time - no. Only saw it a couple of years later.

Do you mean that a relative bought you a Schumi's Greatest Moment's compilation video for Christmas and saw some snippits from the race?

I saw the interviews with Damon around the same time.

OK then. Tell me about his mood during those interviews and tell me what he had to say. Your repeated comments that he didn't complain suggest to me that either you haven't seen those track side interviews or if you have, you were too busy celebrating Schumi's ill-gotten victory to see all the steam pouring from Hill's ears!

How long have you been watching F1?

22 years. You?

Unless of course, you're purely a Schumi hater, who is not prepared to discuss anything sensibly.

I'd say it's more like you are a Schumi lover who will say anything to justify his cheating ways.

[wackysleet]

I have to admit to being an avid subscriber to the WE HATE SHUMACHER BRIGADE purely on the basis that he is a proven cheat, not once but on several occassions, where is the mans self respect? how can someone delude himself with a win achieved by cheating, what does he think when he looks in the mirror in the mornings.

Being of this disposition of the GREAT man I am more than willing to discuss sensibly anything about him, unfortunately his, shall we say indiscretions, mean that the great wins that he did have fairly are overshadowed by the other events surrounding him ie; at least 4 cheating moments.

My post No 678 points out the similarities between Shumacher and Senna and the fact that contrary to your view concerning this the FIA actually hold a different view. .

[Mosha]

Alonso facing censure?

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.p...&sid=120692

[Donnyboy]

Rain in Suzuka atm for the practice session (2) and no one wants to go out on the risk of crashing out, plenty of puddles about on track

hopefully a drier day for qual tomorrow

looking forward to a great race~ McLarens ones to beat?

oops posted too soon, alonso just left the garage

Edited October 2, 2009 by Donnyboy

[rixalex]

1)F1fanatic, did you actually see this race, and if so, did you see the interviews with Damon after it?

1) At the time - no. Only saw it a couple of years later. I saw the interviews with Damon around the same time.

Actually the reason why i asked the question was because i think it makes a big difference to the way people feel about it.

I remember when i first came to Thailand i met some young lads who were just getting into F1. I asked them who they supported and had to wince when they announced that Schumacher was their hero. This was at the time when Schumacher was completely dominating the sport at Ferrari. I asked them how they felt about Schumacher's move in Australia that robbed Hill of the title. They knew of it but at that time they weren't into F1 and hadn't watched it all unfold live. I explained it to them in detail, not particularly trying to turn them against Schumacher, but just so they could understand my feelings towards him. They listened with interest but at the end of it kind of shrugged their shoulders and i could see that for them this was something they couldn't really relate to or feel strongly about. For them it was just something that happened in the past. Their love and admiration of Schumacher remained undiminished. For them all they saw was that right then he was at the pinicle of the sport - the best there was - and that's all that really mattered to them. They wanted to support the best, and there's no question that Schumacher was that.

For those of us who had been passionately following the sport throughout that infamous season... for those of us who set our alarms and got up in the middle of the night to watch that epic climax... watched all the exciting build up, hearts pounding as the lights went green, glued to the screen for every lap of the race, witnessed the late drama of Schumacher's car suddenly slowing to the side of the track and realising that his race was over, for him then to suddenly swerve into Hill's path.... we understand it and feel the injustice of it in a way that someone who simply watches a highlights video years later, or who reads a few history books, never fully will. They just can't get it.

I'm guilty of it myself. When i fell in love with F1, Senna was already at the height of his career. I was a young teenager and was completely in awe of this mysterious superstar who had that supreme confidence and ability that is so alluring. Even if someone had told me the bad side to the man i wouldn't have listened back then. He was my hero. In some ways he still is. But i do listen now. I listen to the likes of Wacky who lived through and followed Senna's career from start to finish. He knows the injustice and the unfairness of Senna, and he feels it in way i can't, no matter how i try. Senna for me will always be the best, most naturally quick and talented driver i have ever seen. But i know if i were a bit older and had i been aware of all the other stuff going on and witnessed it all first hand, i'd feel exactly as Wacky does. Just the way it is i guess.

[wackysleet]

1)F1fanatic, did you actually see this race, and if so, did you see the interviews with Damon after it?

1) At the time - no. Only saw it a couple of years later. I saw the interviews with Damon around the same time.

Actually the reason why i asked the question was because i think it makes a big difference to the way people feel about it.

I remember when i first came to Thailand i met some young lads who were just getting into F1. I asked them who they supported and had to wince when they announced that Schumacher was their hero. This was at the time when Schumacher was completely dominating the sport at Ferrari. I asked them how they felt about Schumacher's move in Australia that robbed Hill of the title. They knew of it but at that time they weren't into F1 and hadn't watched it all unfold live. I explained it to them in detail, not particularly trying to turn them against Schumacher, but just so they could understand my feelings towards him. They listened with interest but at the end of it kind of shrugged their shoulders and i could see that for them this was something they couldn't really relate to or feel strongly about. For them it was just something that happened in the past. Their love and admiration of Schumacher remained undiminished. For them all they saw was that right then he was at the pinicle of the sport - the best there was - and that's all that really mattered to them. They wanted to support the best, and there's no question that Schumacher was that.

For those of us who had been passionately following the sport throughout that infamous season... for those of us who set our alarms and got up in the middle of the night to watch that epic climax... watched all the exciting build up, hearts pounding as the lights went green, glued to the screen for every lap of the race, witnessed the late drama of Schumacher's car suddenly slowing to the side of the track and realising that his race was over, for him then to suddenly swerve into Hill's path.... we understand it and feel the injustice of it in a way that someone who simply watches a highlights video years later, or who reads a few history books, never fully will. They just can't get it.

I'm guilty of it myself. When i fell in love with F1, Senna was already at the height of his career. I was a young teenager and was completely in awe of this mysterious superstar who had that supreme confidence and ability that is so alluring. Even if someone had told me the bad side to the man i wouldn't have listened back then. He was my hero. In some ways he still is. But i do listen now. I listen to the likes of Wacky who lived through and followed Senna's career from start to finish. He knows the injustice and the unfairness of Senna, and he feels it in way i can't, no matter how i try. Senna for me will always be the best, most naturally quick and talented driver i have ever seen. But i know if i were a bit older and had i been aware of all the other stuff going on and witnessed it all first hand, i'd feel exactly as Wacky does. Just the way it is i guess.

Very eloquently put rixalex and exactly to the point. .

[rixalex]

he's (Kimi) just being a finn

That's being a bit harsh on Finnish people.

[Mosha]

Rain in Suzuka atm for the practice session (2) and no one wants to go out on the risk of crashing out, plenty of puddles about on track

hopefully a drier day for qual tomorrow

looking forward to a great race~ McLarens ones to beat?

oops posted too soon, alonso just left the garage

I think the weather is supposed to improve as the w/end progresses, but you know what weather forcasters are like.

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8286418.stm

"All of what happened was robbery. Regarding the race nothing has happened, the result stays the same. That's not right," said Massa.

I agree. That the results of this race are left as they are is bizarre. I appreciate that short of re-running the enitre race, it's difficult to undo the wrong, but a start would be taking back the Winner's Trophy and scratching the points that Renault scored that weekend. I would have thought that would go without saying.

"It changed the championship. I lost by one point."

I agree. It did change the championship. Whether or not it caused Massa to lose the title however is something we'll never know until the day of time travel.

Anyway, i think for Alonso's first day at work he should pencil in an after-hours drink with Massa so he can buy the lad a beer and apologise for wittingly/unwittingly (you chose) being at the centre of it all!

[MJo]

he's (Kimi) just being a finn

That's being a bit harsh on Finnish people.

Not really, we have two three million of them. Some are even better drivers than him but never made it to F1. I personally know one retired taxi driver from Helsinki that drove his merc almost 3 million clicks and never blew an engine. Kimi had a habit of destroying several of them in one season...