2009 Formula One Season

[MJo]

I'm sure there's an element of truth to what you are saying but i don't believe it is as black and white as you suggest.

Fully agree what you said here, there is more to it than just the contracts. I guess they are just starting point in the beginning of the season and if the no 1 wont deliver or no 2 is doing better for any other reason the team will shift the focus based on that.

Past two years Ferrari has been good at that, two years ago Massa annouced that he will fully support Kimi in his championship bid after he did not have a fair shot himself anymore. And Kimi did the same for him last year.

For Alonso i also believe it was struggle to find out, as double champion, that the team shifted behind a rookie as he was performing better and was closer to win championship. As you said earlier these guys have huge ego's. I remember one of the top drivers saying, can't remember who it was, but he said something along the lines of "if you do not absolutely believe that you are the best, fastest driver in the world able to beat anyone in the grid there's no point driving at all as you are not gonna make it ever". I guess this applies to any individual sport when you are at the very top.

[rixalex]

Fully agree what you said here, there is more to it than just the contracts. I guess they are just starting point in the beginning of the season and if the no 1 wont deliver or no 2 is doing better for any other reason the team will shift the focus based on that.

Agreed. And i think ultimately, despite what might be written in the contracts, the team still has the final say so in making important decisions (Schumacher might have been the exception to that!). The recent suggestion on this thread that McLaren effectively require Lewis's nod of approval before signing a driver is i think nonsense. Of course Lewis's team will want to compare the contract they negotiated for him with the one given to the new driver, and if they feel Lewis is at a disadvantage, whether that be in terms of pay, perks or his placing in the team, it's their job to fight for the best conditions they can get for him. But that doesn't mean it is within their power to stop a driver from coming to the team. If McLaren want Kimi then i'm sure they'll sign him. What is probably giving them pause for thought is the massive pay demands that Kimi's team is no doubt making.

I remember one of the top drivers saying, can't remember who it was, but he said something along the lines of "if you do not absolutely believe that you are the best, fastest driver in the world able to beat anyone in the grid there's no point driving at all as you are not gonna make it ever". I guess this applies to any individual sport when you are at the very top.

I think it might have been Coultard and he is of course absolutely correct. I wonder if Badoer believed himself the best?! LOL Well his mum probably did, even if he didn't!

[rixalex]

I just want to say. This has got to be one of the best topics I've read on Thai Visa. We'll have to have one for 2010.

Gonna miss all this when the season ends.

Am i alone in feeling that the winter break is too long? I know that in the age of cut-backs and cost trimming, extending the season might be bucking the trend, but for me the wait for the start of the new season is painfully long!

[MJo]

I think it might have been Coultard and he is of course absolutely correct. I wonder if Badoer believed himself the best?! LOL Well his mum probably did, even if he didn't!

Maybe that was his problem, knew he was too slow but did it for the mom...

I'm more surprised to see Fisi doing so badly. Maybe for him it's the case coming from smaller team. Ferrari must be like flying 747 after a ultralight to him.

[ignis]

Gonna miss all this when the season ends.

WHY ? As from the 25th this month A1 starts. so you have racing all winter

[rixalex]

I'm more surprised to see Fisi doing so badly. Maybe for him it's the case coming from smaller team. Ferrari must be like flying 747 after a ultralight to him.

I haven't been that surprised myself. Fisi isn't the driver he was at the start of his career and a few good races for Force India didn't suddenly change that.

I undertstand why as an Italian he couldn't turn the offer down, but i think ultimately it will prove to be a bad decision to have left his old team which is on the up. Signing for Ferrari he was effectively retiring from the sport, as next year he'll just be a forgotten about test driver. Was he ready to make that decision? I suspect not. He made the decision in haste.

Oh well, I'm sure having been a Ferrari driver will earn him a few beers on the house at any bar in Italy for the rest of his life!

[rixalex]

Gonna miss all this when the season ends.

WHY ? As from the 25th this month A1 starts. so you have racing all winter

Doesn't do it for me.

[Mosha]

ESPN are showing classic races I believe, so that could be good. I don't know I far back they will go, but I wouldn't mind watching some of the races from the early 60's.

A1 no thanks. A1 is what Bernie would have F1 turning into if we aren't careful. Same spec cars, same engines.....

I wish they would show saloon car racing from Europe more, that is nip and tuck racing. 1 step down from Stock car racing.

[rixalex]

A1 no thanks. A1 is what Bernie would have F1 turning into if we aren't careful. Same spec cars, same engines.....

Actually i think the concept of A1 is potentially interesting. Imagine if this season every F1 driver had been given an identical Brawn to drive. How fascinating it would be to see which driver could drive it the fastest. We would for once, catagorically know who was the best. Of course providing identical equipment is never easy, but technically not an impossibility.

If A1 stuck strictly to this idea of making it a motoring sport that pitted the wits of the drivers against each other, rather than the engineers against each other, i think they really would be onto something. F1 would still be the pinnacle, but A1 would have something different to offer. Something more to do with pure racing.

This isn't the case however, as they allow each team to set up their car within certain parameters. It means that once again we are back to which team has the best engineers. Of course not to the same degree as F1, but still it plays a part and means we are back to wondering whether the winner won because he is the fastest driver or because he has the best set-up car.

A1 missed the oppurtunity to do something really exciting in my opinion. All it is, is an inferior version of F1 that not many people care about. I know i don't. I'll be amazed if it survives many more years.

[Mosha]

Planet F1 is saying Kubica to Renault is confirmed.

If, and I say if Kimi's agent scares McLaren off, who do you guys see at McLaren? Rumour says Red Bull are chasing Kimi. I think Mark might be a good fit at McLaren

[TBWG]

Planet F1 is saying Kubica to Renault is confirmed.

If, and I say if Kimi's agent scares McLaren off, who do you guys see at McLaren? Rumour says Red Bull are chasing Kimi. I think Mark might be a good fit at McLaren

A week ago I would have put money on Kimi going to McLaren ~~~~ now I am not so sure. He might be a bit quiet but he is also a tad greedy, allied to the fact that the Hamilton's appear to be a bit wary of him maybe it won't happen, especially after all the dosh McLaren have poured into their protege Lewis. Think there is a good chance of Heikki staying!

Red Bull ... ah I happen to think that they are going to be the team to beat next year, (engine permitting!) mainly because Adrian Newey seldom designs a duff car. He is obviously on top of his game with this years car and thats half the battle. Kimi might be thinking along the same lines. On the other hand he could just push off and spend all that loot he has extracted from Ferrari!

As for Ferrari, everyone seems to agree that Alonso is going to be a disruptive influence allied to the fact that the team is becoming more Italian which must mean more decisions from the heart rather than the head and irrespective of how much money you throw at it, (which seems to be their answer to everything) I can't help thinking that their past success was due to non Italian influence. Jackie Stewart's old pit stop comment about a lot of spaghettis performing a Chinese fire drill springs to mind.

I wait to see how far wide of the mark all the above turns out to be!

TBWG

[F1fanatic]

I think it might have been Coultard and he is of course absolutely correct. I wonder if Badoer believed himself the best?! LOL Well his mum probably did, even if he didn't!

Maybe that was his problem, knew he was too slow but did it for the mom...

I'm more surprised to see Fisi doing so badly. Maybe for him it's the case coming from smaller team. Ferrari must be like flying 747 after a ultralight to him.

One has to suspect that the Ferrari is a nightmare to drive this year! That would explain why Kimi and Massa did so badly at the beginning of the season and why Badoer and Fisi were/are right at the back of the field. With the limited testing time it would be hard for even Badoer to get to grips with the current car. Evidence indicates that Fisi would have been better off staying at Force India rather than trying to get used to the Ferrari! Still, as others have said - the prestige of driving for Ferrari made the switch worthwhile for him.

With Massa away its hard to judge, but it looks as if the Ferrari is still FAR from a race winning car. Ferrari have pretty much given up on this season and are concentrating on next year, and who can blame them?!

I too would like to see Kimi at McLaren. I'm not convinced that he ever really got to grips with the Ferrari as he was so much better in his McLaren days. He's still young, so he can't be naturally reaching the end of his career in F1! If he got on with the Ferrari why would he be unmotivated?

If he goes to McLaren things could be difficult (and VERY interesting)! Whilst Alonso is known for 'throwing his toys out of his pram', Hamilton has been known to do the same. Go back to the race in 2007 when the whole fiasco blew up between Alonso and Hamilton - Hamilton started it by refusing to give Alonso the advantage in qualifying that they had been swapping between them.

Personally I can't wait and would love to see Kimi/Hamilton at McLaren and Massa/Alonso at Ferrari - even though (or more accurately, because) I think the team mate wars will be stupendous and incredibly entertaining!

[MJo]

Saw today in the new pages that Kimi's manager confirmed that they are not negotiating with Red Bull. Said "they have two drivers selected already".

I do agree Red Bull will probably do well next season, Newey is the man what comes of designing fast cars.

Kimi to McLaren, might have some truth about the money he's asking but in F1 you never know. Might be just nego tactics to leak these into the press. I guess we will see how it pans out before the season ends.

One option for Kimi is as per his own comments to go and drive WRC rally, but he has said that even in rally he's not going to and just drive around. He wants a car and team that has potential to win races. Who knows, maybe it's motocross or ice hockey, he's quite good at both. Maybe not at the top level but might do it just for fun as he has the money for it from Ferrari.

[TBWG]

Looks like Donnington is for the chop! ...............

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79368

TBWG

[MJo]

Reliable sources meaning spanish "sport" magazime runs a story that Hamilton has said he will leave McLaren if they hire Kimi.

Not sure what to think, maybe the spanish still hold it against Lewis that Alonso was forced out from McLaren or is the egos clashing afterall... No reports in UK media though, they have chosen to pass this one.

They also claim that Kimi has deal already and that it will be published after the last race, now this i don't believe until it is reported from bit more reliable souces than this "sport" magazine outfit.

[wackysleet]

Reliable sources meaning spanish "sport" magazime runs a story that Hamilton has said he will leave McLaren if they hire Kimi.

Not sure what to think, maybe the spanish still hold it against Lewis that Alonso was forced out from McLaren or is the egos clashing afterall... No reports in UK media though, they have chosen to pass this one.

They also claim that Kimi has deal already and that it will be published after the last race, now this i don't believe until it is reported from bit more reliable souces than this "sport" magazine outfit.

Mjo, I cannot believe that good ol boy Lewis would throw his toys out just because of Kimi, or is he as {apparently from what posters keep telling us} childish as Alonso.

[MJo]

Mjo, I cannot believe that good ol boy Lewis would throw his toys out just because of Kimi, or is he as {apparently from what posters keep telling us} childish as Alonso.

Neither do i, maybe more to do with spanish media still holding something against him thus reporting these "facts"

But i do hope they both drive in McLaren next year, would make them a team to beat providing the car is as good as it has been lately.

[wackysleet]

Mjo, I cannot believe that good ol boy Lewis would throw his toys out just because of Kimi, or is he as {apparently from what posters keep telling us} childish as Alonso.

Neither do i, maybe more to do with spanish media still holding something against him thus reporting these "facts"

But i do hope they both drive in McLaren next year, would make them a team to beat providing the car is as good as it has been lately.

Mjo, My feelings are that if they do team up for next season and the Maclaren is NOT the very best and not the fastest then they will not shine through, saying that, if it performs like it has this season as a whole with other drivers and cars like the Brawn coming through then they will not get the results, unlike Shumacher neither of them will consistantly score points in an inferior car.

Remember when Maclaren were unbeatable Prost/Senna era then they went off the boil, Williams also had their turn at the top along with Renault and Ferrari since when they have at sometime or another gone off the boil, perhaps there will be a change at the top although I doubt very much that it will come from the new crop of cars.

[MJo]

Mjo, My feelings are that if they do team up for next season and the Maclaren is NOT the very best and not the fastest then they will not shine through, saying that, if it performs like it has this season as a whole with other drivers and cars like the Brawn coming through then they will not get the results, unlike Shumacher neither of them will consistantly score points in an inferior car.

Remember when Maclaren were unbeatable Prost/Senna era then they went off the boil, Williams also had their turn at the top along with Renault and Ferrari since when they have at sometime or another gone off the boil, perhaps there will be a change at the top although I doubt very much that it will come from the new crop of cars.

I think they both can do good job even with inferior car. Just take a look on stats and who is the driver that has scored the most points in last 5 or 6 races. Yep, it's Kimi and with a car that has not been developed since Hungary !

[MJo]

Points from last 6 races...

1. Kimi 35

2. Lewis 34

3. Rubens 27

4. Vettel 22

5. Kovalainen 17 & Button 17

I would say Button has been underperforming lately or then just playing it too safe for comfort what comes to championships. McLaren has been getting faster for Lewis and Vettel had some bad luck as well and Kimi has been doing ok in my opinion with car that is propably the slowest one listed here.

[wackysleet]

Points from last 6 races...

1. Kimi 35

2. Lewis 34

3. Rubens 27

4. Vettel 22

5. Kovalainen 17 & Button 17

I would say Button has been underperforming lately or then just playing it too safe for comfort what comes to championships. McLaren has been getting faster for Lewis and Vettel had some bad luck as well and Kimi has been doing ok in my opinion with car that is propably the slowest one listed here.

Mjo, I agree that in the last 5/6 races Lewis and Kimi have done better but I'm inclined to think thats more of an improvement in their cars, just look at their points scored in the first 6 races when they both definitely had shit cars, as for old Jenson, as much as I like him he is not unfortunately the class act of the field and you maybe right in thinking he is quite content to plod away and keep scoring points, personally I believe the other cars are improving to the point where they are almost/as competitive as the Brawns and driver quality is perhaps beginning to show through, I do think that Vettel has been an exceptional driver this year and could be higher up but for some bad luck although mostly of his own making.

One other thing I have to say and thats about Luka Badoer, people were knocking his couple of races in the Ferrari, admittedly he did not perform as well as expected but he has not raced comptitively for a very long time and testing is not the same as the cut and thrust of a real race, like a boxer who may well have sparred for 6 months but put him in a ring and see for yourself just how ring rusty he is, having said that, what is Fisi excuse.

[Mosha]

Probably the car is still a pig to drive and it's taken Kimi most of the season to get used to it.

[MJo]

Ferrari has not developed this year car for months now. Last upgrade package / new parts was for Hungary so it's not due to his car getting faster. And i don't think the others have gone backwards either.

McLaren has done some improvements but i don't believe they have been on it 100% as they have also started with next year car months ago. It's been enough to be faster than Ferrari but not to be the faster than Brawn and Red Bull in every track.

In the beginning of the season both Ferrari and McLaren were really slow compared to Brawn and the likes. Mainly as they did not have the double diffusor. If your car is just too slow no driver, including Schumi, can perform and do well.

For Fisi, he's good driver if his car is good. He did well in Spa with Force India and Kimi had real trouble to keep him behind in his slower Ferrari. Was saved by the KERS. Now in Ferrari he's driving ok but the difference that parts good and exceptional drivers is shown between his and Kimi's lap times.

Same you could say for Hamilton and Kovalainen although Kovi is much closer now when he's been getting the same parts as Lewis and has adjusted his driving style to fit the car better. Early in the season Lewis had priority over new parts often available only for one car as they rush to catch up the brawns and Kovi has been spending lot of time in simulator at Woking. He still says he can not drive it as he prefers but is getting more confortable with it. Regardless it shows that Lewis is faster at the moment with present McLaren car.

[Mosha]

At Planet F1 is a topic and a link to an article. In it Kimi claims Alonso bought is seat at Ferrari.

[wackysleet]

At Planet F1 is a topic and a link to an article. In it Kimi claims Alonso bought is seat at Ferrari.

I would find that very hard to believe, for one thing all drivers want to race a competitive car and that includes Alonso, Ferrari didn't set out last season to produce such a crap car as they are running this season and there are certainly no guarantees that next years one will be any better, manufacturers do not always get it right, I suspect the Renault is as good as the Ferrari now.

On the other hand it could be true but more likely Kimi knew he was about to get the boot for non performance except when it comes to being first in line for his money and may well be a case of "sour grapes".

From this reply you may well assume I don't have a lot of time for Mr. Raikonen and you would be right, oh I forgot, he did win the WDC. once and sod all since. He is over rated and over paid, there are a lot of up and coming good young drivers who would give him a run for his money "not only Vettel" Rosberg, Kubica and others. Check out the stats, most multiple world champions tend to win their titles over a short number of years with very little gap between them, Raikonen has had his day, time to retire and go rallying.

[rixalex]

From this reply you may well assume I don't have a lot of time for Mr. Raikonen and you would be right, oh I forgot, he did win the WDC. once and sod all since. He is over rated and over paid, there are a lot of up and coming good young drivers who would give him a run for his money "not only Vettel" Rosberg, Kubica and others. Check out the stats, most multiple world champions tend to win their titles over a short number of years with very little gap between them, Raikonen has had his day, time to retire and go rallying.

Whilst i agree with what you are saying, my feeling towards how Kimi has managed his career is one more of admiration than annoyance.

He has got the most out of the sport for himself that he could have done. Some might call that selfish, but i'd say that as with all sports people, they have to make the most of their short careers, and basically, if someone is willing to throw silly money at you, as Ferrari have done, more fool them i say.

Anyway, it's not all bad. There was a period of time when Kimi was at McClaren when i do believe he was the fastest driver on a flying lap. At that time i thought he'd go on to achieve great things. Didn't happen. Partly due to the car he has been given. He did of course win a WDC, but that was very much virtue of McClaren and Lewis doing some really daft things. It was a gift to Kimi, but one i felt in some ways he deserved. I find it sad when great drivers finish their careers without winning anything, as happened to Stirling Moss (not that i rank Kimi quite that high!). Doesn't seem fair when other more ordinary drivers win stuff thanks to being in the right car at the right time, rather than because of skill. This year will be a good example of that.

[wackysleet]

From this reply you may well assume I don't have a lot of time for Mr. Raikonen and you would be right, oh I forgot, he did win the WDC. once and sod all since. He is over rated and over paid, there are a lot of up and coming good young drivers who would give him a run for his money "not only Vettel" Rosberg, Kubica and others. Check out the stats, most multiple world champions tend to win their titles over a short number of years with very little gap between them, Raikonen has had his day, time to retire and go rallying.

Whilst i agree with what you are saying, my feeling towards how Kimi has managed his career is one more of admiration than annoyance.

He has got the most out of the sport for himself that he could have done. Some might call that selfish, but i'd say that as with all sports people, they have to make the most of their short careers, and basically, if someone is willing to throw silly money at you, as Ferrari have done, more fool them i say.

Anyway, it's not all bad. There was a period of time when Kimi was at McClaren when i do believe he was the fastest driver on a flying lap. At that time i thought he'd go on to achieve great things. Didn't happen. Partly due to the car he has been given. He did of course win a WDC, but that was very much virtue of McClaren and Lewis doing some really daft things. It was a gift to Kimi, but one i felt in some ways he deserved. I find it sad when great drivers finish their careers without winning anything, as happened to Stirling Moss (not that i rank Kimi quite that high!). Doesn't seem fair when other more ordinary drivers win stuff thanks to being in the right car at the right time, rather than because of skill. This year will be a good example of that.

I've never had a problem with what a driver earns and good luck to them, mind you even with a relatively short carrer how many years do you need with that kind of money on the table, yes he has had periods where he's been fast and I agree that he really won the title by default, my words not yours, I just feel he is completely devoid of any personality and really you just get what you see, my view is he has never deserved the elevated position he's been put in, a case of too little too late but heh this is a forum for debating ones views. All F1 drivers are good it's just that some are better than others and it really should be about the drivers skill and car that determines the outcome and this year it will be based solely on who had the best car overall.

[rixalex]

mind you even with a relatively short carrer how many years do you need with that kind of money on the table,

Good point. Of course Kimi is the tip of the iceberg. Vast majority of people in motor sport earn a fraction of what he does. But F1 does create a lot of revenue and it has to go to someone. Why not one of the guys who puts his neck on the line?

yes he has had periods where he's been fast and I agree that he really won the title by default, my words not yours,

Actually i can't take the credit for those specific words, but do agree with them.

I just feel he is completely devoid of any personality

In fairness i think a big part of that is to do with cultural differences. Most Finnish people tend to have that stoic unemotional way about them. I'm sure once you get to know them however, you understand them better, and discover their personalities lurking beneath the outer-exterior!

Mjo can explain better than me i'm sure.

[rixalex]

yes he has had periods where he's been fast and I agree that he really won the title by default, my words not yours,

Actually i can't take the credit for those specific words, but do agree with them.

Sorry, i read "my words not yours" back to front for some strange reason.

[MJo]

In fairness i think a big part of that is to do with cultural differences. Most Finnish people tend to have that stoic unemotional way about them. I'm sure once you get to know them however, you understand them better, and discover their personalities lurking beneath the outer-exterior!

Mjo can explain better than me i'm sure.

You got it right there. Kimi himself keeps saying in several occasions that "he's been paid for driving his car as fast as he can" and that's all.

So he's not there to entertain people, what drives him is to be the fastest man in the track. Not to be most popular driver or not to be a celeb his face in the mags and being able to hang out with beatiful women in the top clubs all over europe. That's also why he don't have pussy doll GF or wife but ex-miss Finland finalist but hardly a celeb even in Finland. Only known as his wife in Finnish media.

Good example of this was the reports in Finland last weekend. Obviously Kimi needed to relax a bit so he headed to see his mate Matti Nykanen, who is the most successful ski jumper (yes i know) still. Won olympics, world championships and 4 hills tournaments in the 80's often jumping drunk or in hangover. Anyways he's a legend of screwing up and boozing his money away after he quit jumping. So Kimi went to see him to his house with couple of mates (childhood friends) and car full of booze. They heat up the sauna and continued the evening in small town bar singing karaoke. Reportedly he ordered 100 white russians and 50 rum cokes at one go Although he could have took the plane down to london and visited some of the clubs for sure without paying for a single drink. If you look back, most of the finnish rally champions are the same. Maybe Ari Vatanen was the only exception.

And for performance i still stand behind the facts. Kimi has collected most points from last 6 races with a slow car that has not been developed since Hungary. Maybe Alonso didn't buy his seat, maybe Santander bought it for him? Might also be that part of the deal was Kimi's transfer to McLaren as Santander sponsors both teams next season?