Organic livestock

[Lickey]

My chicken tractor, well, its a moveable run with chickens and a small house for the egg layers, it will be built from bamboo and shade netting, covering 2 10 mtr salad beds at a time, now these beds were oversprayed with herbicides last November and nothing grows there anymore, although weve had a few hours rain in the last day or so, perhaps something will,

No problem with kitchen waste, 4 work in mrs salon so ok there, but what other things do they like?or do i rough up the ground and let them get on with it, plenty of ants ect,

Thanks for any views on this, Lickey..

[Lickey]

Sorry posters, i shou;d explain a little more, the fact that the beds were overspayed has prevented me from planting anything in the last cooler months, hence all chemicals have removed and banned from the farm, the idea of the chicken tractor is to re-vitalise the soil by natural means, and get eggs into the bargain, other than kitchen waste, what else would keep them going till fresh shoots appear?

Thanks, Lickey.

[IsaanAussie]

Sorry posters, i shou;d explain a little more, the fact that the beds were overspayed has prevented me from planting anything in the last cooler months, hence all chemicals have removed and banned from the farm, the idea of the chicken tractor is to re-vitalise the soil by natural means, and get eggs into the bargain, other than kitchen waste, what else would keep them going till fresh shoots appear?

Thanks, Lickey.

Chickens make great lawn mowers and insect controllers. Pick up the handles and drive the tractor over to the house garden, the excrement will not hurt with a bit of rain to wash it in.

[jandtaa]

Hi Lickey

here's a link to a PDF on small-scale chicken/egg production in the tropics Jandtaas docs - chickens in the tropics 

hope it's useful 

J

[Allgeier]

Is There a market for organic or freerange pig and pork in Thailand or not?

Google gives me not so many answers.

To feed pigs in a organic way i can see a way. But who will buy the pigs.

And the pigs will/must have more then 120 kg.

[CLW]

I was asking me the same question. The only thing I know is that at Tops Supermarket you can buy herb (I guess that means grass) fed pork meat.

But that's all what I know.

Maybe you can contact that company.

Here is the link

http://www.tops.co.th/en/market/NaturalMeat.html

[Allgeier]

But from gras no ham grow.

The ham grow with protein. And where to get organic protein?

Or maybe this way of organic thinking from our homecountry is wrong inrefering to livestock.

Maybe more in this way: appropriate for the species

Or the first 80 kg is normal commercial feeding and after is some another feed. If possible with organic ingredients.Because after 80 kg the pigs are easyer to feed.

But this what Tops write on the webpage is nothing.

Me pigs get also gras and cassave leaf and straw. And antibiotika i used the last time 1 1/2 year ago. But i have only a couple of pigs.

But i not like to let them run outsite. Only get a sunburn. And the pig poo is also not easy to collect.

Its also a question of time. With straw the cleaning takes more time. But give's also more fertiliser.

But one is sure. Its nice to watch the small piglet when there enjoy with the straw and run around like crazy.

[CLW]

Yes, Tops doesn't declare it as certified organic. So you just can rely what they write on the packaging and their website. And what you wrote, it's indeed very difficult to get organic feed here. But what I appreciate about the organic guidelines are the conditions how you keep your animals. For example with straw or not caged and less animal per area. That's a good start.

[Allgeier]

But nobody will buy after when the hear the pork cost 50% more then the Macroprice.

Who will buy a chickenegg when 1 egg cost 6 Bath?

Normaly nobody care about how the animal live. The only importend think is the price.

For this it is importend the freerange meat/pork/egg should not cost more then the macropork/egg.

And this is the question how to manage and organice this.

[CLW]

I think or believe there is a market but surely not at Makro or the countryside.

If you can sell in special organic stores or to high-end restaurants it will work.

By the way, 6 Baht is cheap for organic eggs. I see them here between 70 and 90 Baht per 10 package

[CLW]

In the recent issue of the Technology Chao Ban Agricultural Magazine is an article about "happy egg" farming.

http://www.technologychaoban.com/webmobile/default.html

[Allgeier]

By the way, 6 Baht is cheap for organic eggs. I see them here between 70 and 90 Baht per 10 package

But where to get the organic feed? Or what there eat?

Because only from gras picking there will not have so many egg. Or this is the reasion why there are so expensive. There make only every 4 days one egg.

[CLW]

I'm not sure they are certified organic, I just know they're from free range chicken. What you mentioned about "real" organic feed. That's a real problem here, especially for protein unless you can grow some feed crops by yourself.

[Allgeier]

Here is a Link for a organic Shrimpfarm

http://www.sureerathprawns.com/display/organicsystem.htm

Natural Feed

Upon the good ecology as in Sureerath farm, we produce natural feed which becomes feed since release the shrimp to the grow-out pond. Such as:

Seaweed Polychaete

Duckweed, Flymaggots. But its possible to produce it in houndrets of ton's?

But in my eys are the best Resources are meatmeal. In my eys its a sin to feed them to gras eater, but it's good to feed it to chicken or pig.

Better meatmeal than GMO soja.

Everythink else push the price up and nobody after like to buy it.

[CLW]

There are some alternative sources of protein

but mostly only small scale or grow by yourself.

Like you mentioned the Duckweed, Insects or Algae.

So what is meatmeal exactly?

Is it from chicken carcass and leftover from slaughtering?

[Allgeier]

So what is meatmeal exactly?

Is it from chicken carcass and leftover from slaughtering?

Yes.

Meat and Bone Meal from Chicken and/or Pork.

The Protein must come from somewhere. No Protein = no egg or ham.

Meatmeal is a byprodukt from the Meatindustrie. If its feed to pork or chicken i can see nothing bad on it. On some study's there talking only good to feed it to chicken and pork.

[CLW]

Okay, that's what I thought. Also known short as MBM

[Allgeier]

Today i got organic broken rice and sometimes also rice bran.

But from where i get a organic Protein source ?

Or maybe our western thinking is wrong and we should more go to the direktion

species-appropriate

This what i call "half way organic" is to feed organic rice bran, organic cassava but for the protein source normal meat meal and sojameal if its not GMO.

And the price will be the some like for normal pork from the supermarket.

[CLW]

Today i got organic broken rice and sometimes also rice bran.

But from where i get a organic Protein source ?

Or maybe our western thinking is wrong and we should more go to the direktion

species-appropriate

This what i call "half way organic" is to feed organic rice bran, organic cassava but for the protein source normal meat meal and sojameal if its not GMO.

And the price will be the some like for normal pork from the supermarket.

Doing the organic-like or natural way is better than conventional in my opinion.

For real organic meat from any animal Thailand is still not ready.

It might take a couple of years.

But also keep in mind that almost every organic certification costs a lot of money, especially for international labels for exporting.

That money you need to make first with your products!

[Allgeier]

CLW

i know a organic ricefarm and there start very small a couple of years ago. And today? There exporting outside Thailand.

Real Organic is not easy. The key for this should more in species-appropriate Farming.

And this will not cost more than commercial Farming or a little bit more but for sure not 2 or 3 times more than commercial meat. Also the pure people have the right for clean food.

[CLW]

Also some kind of misunderstanding and misinformation around here.

Today at Kasetsart Fair I saw a both with the Company Name "Organic Quail Farm".

But they keep the birds in the net cages which is, to western standards, certainly not organic or even animal welfare friendly.

It's only the company name appear on their products, no label or certification.

But one who doesn't know could understand their products are raised according to organic standards.

Kind of misleading the customer

[CLW]

I saw and bought your eggs at my local Big C. Good product.

[beammeup]

I would not want to eat pork fed with any soy. I would buy organic pork if I could get it. But not if it is fed soy. I would pay extra.

[Allgeier]

I would not want to eat pork fed with any soy. I would buy organic pork if I could get it. But not if it is fed soy. I would pay extra.

And what can be the reason for this?

Sojameal is a byprodukt from the foodindustrie. Why not feed to animal?

What you like a organic pork eat?

Allgeier

[drtreelove]

Allgeier; I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with soy products for animal feed, but the problem is that soy is big corporate business and most soybean crops now are GMO and harsh chemical farming, and as far from organic as you can get. So for some people who feel strongly about this issue, avoiding soy products is a personal preference and statement with environmental/political implications for promoting the sustainable farming movement.

Organic pork feed would ideally come from non GMO, organically grown grains and produce.

And even more ideally in my opinion, would come from high nutrient density (High Brix) mineralized, biologically active soil building.

http://www.pasturepromise.tv/the-new-agriculture.html

https://www.amazon.com/Fertility-Animal-Health-Albrecht-Papers/dp/0911311076

http://soilminerals.com/AgricolaI.htm

[Jotham79]

Also some kind of misunderstanding and misinformation around here.

Today at Kasetsart Fair I saw a both with the Company Name "Organic Quail Farm".

But they keep the birds in the net cages which is, to western standards, certainly not organic or even animal welfare friendly.

It's only the company name appear on their products, no label or certification.

But one who doesn't know could understand their products are raised according to organic standards.

Kind of misleading the customer

There is definitely some confusion. All quail are raised in cages or nets or they would fly away. This is the same in Australia, the UK and the US They only ones raised on the ground are for sale to hunting clubs that need good flying birds.. Allowing birds on to ground (not the same as floor raised) subjects them to a host of parasites and diseases that I would worry about more than their diet. This would also make keeping the eggs clean a problem. Quail will be healthier and cleaner in cages and I feel the welfare issue to be more about how much space and quail are often crowded. I raise my quail with more than double the space recommended. I do not vaccinate or medicate and feed my layers an un-medicated quail layer feed and make my own grower ration for the chicks. I give other natural supplements depending on what is available.

Animal welfare is a whole separate political and moral issue. but I think you have to consider health as a major component. The notion that there are "Happy" chickens or quail is ridiculous. They exist in different stages of stress. If they have room to move around, ample feed and clean environment safe from predators and disturbances, that is about as happy as they can get.

Organic has more to do with what the bird consumes and everyone has a different definition. At the least it usually means the animal is fed non-medicated feed and is given no growth hormones, un-natural chemicals, or antibiotics. Some say they shouldn't be vaccinated. And others think that they should only eat organic feed (again with lots of different standards).

Free range or floor raised has more to do with housing and again their are a lot of different standards floating around. An animal allowed access to the outside but fed with hormones and antibiotics would not be considered organic. I can tell you from a dozen trails that my chickens lay better when confined to a coop than when I let them free range and the eat slightly more. This is because they have full access to feed at all times and spend a lot of time running around that burns energy. I also have more health issues when the chickens free range, probably because of the exposure to parasites and disease. Even knowing this, I let mine run from time to time.

In Thailand if you don't grow it yourself you take you chances, which I don't have a problem with personally.

As for GMO goes, there are tons of articles but few real studies. The articles reference studies, but the original studies are very difficult to track down and often poorly done to support a particular political or moral position. I have a bit of a science background so I tend to need the original data to take something seriously. What I haven't seen explained is how a GMO seed can be fed to an animal, digested, and then the animal is cooked and eaten passing through another digestive track and harms the animal eating it.

I fully support everyone's right to an opinion, I just wished people were better informed.

Cheers

[Allgeier]

Allgeier; I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with soy products for animal feed, but the problem is that soy is big corporate business and most soybean crops now are GMO and harsh chemical farming, and as far from organic as you can get.

The TVO Product in Thailand should be non GMO. There are also Sojameal on the Market from outside Thailand and cheaper.

But the question is from where to get the Protein if not feed Byproduct from Soja or some Meatmeal, Fishmeal? But i have no problem to feed this byproduct from the foodindustrie if there come from a clean source.

BUT. When i feed my pig with the pelletfeed from the feedcompany. The pig poo stink so mutch and black like the night. I would like to know what there put inside the pigfeed.

The sow get the own mix and the poo smell normal.

This is one part of organic farming to know what the animal eat.

How to keep them is a differant story.

Joel Salatin, a US Farmer show a way between organic and conventionell.