Non immigrant b

[JT65]

Hi All

I wanted to post this on the "Ruling out the Foreigner" list but it seems to have been given the chop.

I know there was a long thread on this in the past but I did miss it.  I am a little confused on a few areas , especially with the new rules. In the past many people have stated that a Non Immigrant B visa is for the specific purpose of obtaining a work permit and nothing more. Many seem to have confirmed this point.  My question is that if this is the case, what type of visa do people who come to Thailand obtain if they are coming here for a specific business purpose such as exporting furniture etc.  I imagine that they do not get a tourist visa as this is for tourist purposes only?

I need to know as I export a lot of homewares out of Thailand and have been staying here due to the amount we export. I obviously need to check or make orders every week. Many say that I am working in Thailand but my Company is in my home country.  We sell the product there and my weekly wage comes from there, I also pay tax in my home country.  I have had a multiple entry Non B for the last 3 years as the business has grown. Many times within the 3 month stays I have left for Vietnam or Laos or other parts of Asia on business and at busy periods in Thailand have just done the normal Visa Run.  Well with the new rules it seems from what I have read that my embassy will be told not to issue anymore multiple entry visas.  This means that I will just be given 3 month B Visas?  Is this what others feel will happen?

Furthermore if anyone knows what type of visa I should be applying for please advise me. The home embassy knew my full story and after checking how many containers a year I did always gave me a multiple entry B. They never asked anything about setting up a Thai Company or why I dont have a work permit.  Any further info on this would be appreciated.

Cheers

So Confused

[dr_Pat_Pong]

In my view you are ok as you are. However, it is a vexed question. One ' expert ' said some time back that a tourist visa was all one needed to do what you are doing. That just is not right. Talk to a real expert like Sunbelt

[JT65]

Appreciate the reply Dr Pat Pong.

I will endeavor to continue as per normal. Is it the general consensus that the multiple entry version of the non immigrant B will be scraped and people will be only issued a 3 month non b at a time.  If this happens I will still be okay as I usually go out within any three month period anyway.  I do worry if they start saying you have to go out for 3 or 6 months before you can return. That would make business impossible for me and force me to export from China or Vietnam which is not what we want to do.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Hi JT,

I asked a very similar question awhile back. It wasn't quite as popular as this 'ruling out the foreigner' thread, but it did turn into a pretty big debate.

My question was basically, ' If my company is in the US and I wish to come to Thailand to design a product line, but and export, what kind of visa do I need? No payments are made to me here in Thailand. All invoices are written from the US.

Some people insisted that this could only be done with a work permit. The only way you'd get one apart from working for a thai company (which of course wouldn't allow you to do your exporting) would be to register a company with 2 million baht capital and issue yourself a work permit.

Then others insisted that exporting could be done on a tourist visa.

The middle ground seemed to be Dr. PP who said that a Non-im B should do. However, to be sure, there were people who disagreed with that and said that a non-im b is only for applying for a work permit and nothing else.

So at the end of the day I came out of the thread not really knowing what to think. But when you apply for the non-im b, you indicate that your purpose is exporting and they grant you the visa, then i believe you are safe.

There was also the issue of the export license, which I believe Sunbelt insisted you need to export legally. The only way to obtain the license is to produce your work permit.

Perhaps this export license requirement is technically true. however, I know people who have been exporting for over a decade and have no idea what it is. Additionally, my local UPS assured me I didn't need the license as did my shipper I use for sea freight. So at the end of the day, its hard to know what to conclude! All the best.

[JT65]

Hi Chiangmai Thai

Thanks for your opinion again. I know Ive asked before about this but I followed closely Ruling out The Foreigner and it has really put me on a big down slope which is not good for business.  My business back home is a family one and my brother is very concerned about info I have told him.  I guess I am trying to make sure we can keep coming here to do business with the suppliers we have worked with for the last 3 years.  The problem with these new government regs is that they dont seem to be finalised in a detailed format. There is a lot up in the air, so to say. This makes people like me and everyone else on the board nervous.  They seem to want to attract big money which is fine but for people like me it is starting to do the opposite.

[opalhort]

Hi JT,

in general an export license is required for all kinds of exports, but you can get one only if you have a registered company and, as a foreigner, a workpermit, but it is easy for anybody to export goods, regardless of your visa status, by going through a local (Thai) company/shipping agent.

As I understand it from your posts, you hire a local company or shipping agent to handle your exports (they do have their export licenses) and you are only here to check the goods and supervise loading etc.....but do not receive any payment inside Thailand...is this correct?

We also have many times customers who come here to inspect the goods they ordered (water lilies) and they stayed here on tourist visas / visa on arrival.

If you need to stay longer, for example to supervise the production of the goods your Co ordered, have a PO (Purchase Order) from your company and an order confirmation (matching the PO) from your supplier ready when you apply for a Non-O or Non-B visa. A letter from your Thai supplier asking you to come to Thailand to inspect and supervise the production of the goods is also VERY helpful.

There should not be any problem obtaining as many Non-O/B visas as you need (without blackout period). The only problem could be to obtain multiple entry visas.

Regards

Rainer

[Richard Hall]

Hi JT,

I asked a very similar question awhile back. It wasn't quite as popular as this 'ruling out the foreigner' thread, but it did turn into a pretty big debate.

My question was basically, ' If my company is in the US and I wish to come to Thailand to design a product line, but and export, what kind of visa do I need? No payments are made to me here in Thailand. All invoices are written from the US.

Some people insisted that this could only be done with a work permit. The only way you'd get one apart from working for a thai company (which of course wouldn't allow you to do your exporting) would be to register a company with 2 million baht capital and issue yourself a work permit.

Then others insisted that exporting could be done on a tourist visa.

The middle ground seemed to be Dr. PP who said that a Non-im B should do. However, to be sure, there were people who disagreed with that and said that a non-im b is only for applying for a work permit and nothing else.

So at the end of the day I came out of the thread not really knowing what to think. But when you apply for the non-im b, you indicate that your purpose is exporting and they grant you the visa, then i believe you are safe.

There was also the issue of the export license, which I believe Sunbelt insisted you need to export legally. The only way to obtain the license is to produce your work permit.

Perhaps this export license requirement is technically true. however, I know people who have been exporting for over a decade and have no idea what it is. Additionally, my local UPS assured me I didn't need the license as did my shipper I use for sea freight. So at the end of the day, its hard to know what to conclude! All the best.

Well, officially a trading company dealing in import/export business  requiring a permit issued by The Customs Department.

It has now the size of a credit card, even bears the photo of the owner and is valid for three years. Although issued to an individual the card provides also name of the company and tax number in print and includes additional data by means of storage media such as magnetic strip and a storage chip. Quite an accomplishment considering that the previous version was just a simple cardborad card similar to the Thai driver's license. Usually the forwarder refers to this card not as "import/export license" but rather "Batt Kaeng" (= hard card).  

My forwarding company asked me to present this card, whenever,  doing an import or export transaction and to ease things I have got two cards issued. One staying with the forwarding company and  the other with me in the office.

This card entitles you to import and export products but is not a general license allowing you to trade with ALL kinds of products. Certain products such as for example food and beverages and countless others require special licenses.  

To apply for the import/export card the company registration and since I am a foreigner also  the work permit needs to be presented at The Customs Department. My work permit spells out that my company is active in import and export and guess that's why the cards were issued without any problems. When running an export company and extending the work permit proof such as bill of ladings and/or airway bills must be provided to show that the company is actually active in this business.

It is quite amazing that one can export (import?) container loads without holding this card but otherwise it shows again that every obstacle can be overcome with the right "paperwork" and/or contacts. On the other hand with holding this card I never needed to pay up in the coffee box to get my goods cleared.

As far as the future is concerned one can anticipate that the Government is applying stronger rules to Customs surely being aware of the present situation. With the tread by terrorist in mind, US Government has urged the Thai authorities to implement stricter controls on out-going containers and switch  from random manual checks to x-ray procedure. With the US being Thailand's strongest trading partner one can surely anticipate that stricter rules will surely come although it may still take a while until the necessary equipment has been acquired and installed.

[Butterfly]

The official answer I got from the Thai embassy on this issue was : don't bother with a business visa or non-immigrant O, a simple tourist visa will do, you are not really working there. However if you need to stay longer, we will issue you a non-immigrant visa as long as you have some papers to prove your claim that you are in Thailand for doing quality check on your goods. A simple letter from your "exporter" or the company you are buying from should be enough.

If you apply for a work visa you personally become liable to taxation from income generated in Thailand AND abroad. Not good.

[kwiz117]

In my opinion, you should not disclose what you do in Thailand to any person. What other replies have mentioned here about Import/export License are correct and that is the correct procedure.

As soon as you do that, the advantage you will have is, you will not face any export problems, no need to pay any additional payments for using a name of some other company etc. basically you will be doing things in 100% legal way.

But you will end up with incurring below expenses. You will have to maintain an office to register a Company. Then you will have to do all documentary work. You will need to prepare all accounts and you will have to pay Personal Income Taxes for your Income as a Director and Company Taxes etc. May be this will make your profitable business other way around.

All you do ni Thailand is, checking the products, selecting suppliers and consolidating your shipments. You are not basically working in Thailand [No Employment Contract] and earning any Salary from any Company.  

For example, a tourist come to Thailand can even go to any Company or retail shop and purchase any item to bring back to his own personal use. I do not see you are different from that category of people.

[ If this is not true, then Government will not have a procedure for VAT refund for Tourist inside the Airpoirt.]

You are better than them. You do not buy any item direct or carry by your self.

If you are already doing 3 month Visa runs, then I can not understand any problem here. All you have to do is, legally stay in Thailand.

Just make sure that you do not disclose what you do to any one else. This is my personal opinion.

Good Luck

[Indo-Siam]

It sounds to me like it is probably time for you to open a Representative Office for your overseas firm - this would be pretty easy to do, and would make you totally legal.  Cost:  Head Office must remit 2 million baht to Thailand first year, and one million baht each of next three years.   Pay yourself from these funds.   Plus pay a company like mine about 100,000 baht (including Alien Business License of 42,000 baht) for registration, work permit, and extended entry permit.  That's the fully legal and proper way.

Now - let's address a couple of points.

Class B visa vs. Work Permit.  -  This is an utterly  RIDICULOUS discussion.   The visa is a permit to enter the country.  It is issued by a consular office of the Foreign Ministry - outside Thailand.

The work permit is a permission to work inside Thailand.  It is issued by the Labor Ministry.

Gents - you are totally out of your mind to equate a visa issued outside Thailand by a Foreign Ministry - that allows ONE THING ONLY - that being entry into Thailand - with being a document that allows you to work without meeting the separate and unrelated requirements of the Labor Ministry.

Understand?  The LABOR MINISTRY regulates employment inside Thailand.  The Foreign Ministry does not regulate employment inside Thailand.   Period.  Think about it.

With all that said, I have a question:  In three years of exporting goods from Thailand, holding a passport with an entry permit issued against a Class B visa - in how many instances were you required to show or use your passport with non-immigrant entry permit to accomplish something - something that would otherwise not have been possible if you were instead holding an entry permit granted against a six-month toursit visa, with a 90 day tourist class entry permit?   Or even a 30 day entry permit upon arrival?

The answer to this question should be a pretty good guide as to the necessity of having a Class B visa.  

In eight years of coming and going, the last three living here,  I have NEVER been asked to show my passport except:

1.  To register my marriage in Thailand.

2.  To get my Thai driver's license.

3.  To register my company.

4.  To get my work permit.

5.  To pick up personal packages at Thai Customs (airport and downtown Bangkok) and two Thai post offices.

6.  To obtain an import/export license.

7.  To enter or depart Thailand.

8.  To check into most hotels in Thailand.

9.  During police spot checks on buses near Laotian border - but they never even touched my passport - just looked at me holding it.

10.  To accomplish tasks at my embassy (US Embassy).

11.  To register birth of my son at Bumrungrad Hospital.

12.  To open a bank account here.

For all of these items except 3, 4, and 6, it would not have been a problem if my passport had only a 30 day entry on arrival.

So - you probably can get along fine here with just a passport with valid entry permit - of any type.

My two satang.

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

[JT65]

To All who Posted

I just returned home from dinner with the Mrs and its a bit late. I have tried to read everything that is in reply to the requested info. I must admit I need to re read in the morning to take it all in.

Many thanks to all who posted with advice and information. It is much appreciated.

Regards

JT