Protecting Yourself

[ernest1966]

in 6 months or so I am going to buying a property. Now, I can either buy a condo and have it in my name or buying a house and putting it in her name.

Ok, I've read all the horror stories about the wife selling the house or borrowing from loan sharks against it. Is there ANY way to protect yourself.

I know that you could get an agreement drawn up that if she sells the house she has to pay you x amount i.e you loan her the money. But if she secretly sells the place or takes out a loan , that agreement doesn't seem to cut it...

Apart from going the condo route do I have any other choices ?

Ernest.

[chiangmaibruce]

Apart from going the condo route do I have any other choices ?

You have multiple choices of varying complexity, but none of which provide total protection for all people in all circumstances. The closest thing would be a 30 year lease. All the different options and their respective advantages/disadvantages are discussed in earlier threads in this forum - you now need to spend some time going through these. There is no short/easy answer to your question. Also look in some other good web sites like www.samuiforsale.com and www.thailawonline.com

[trogers]

Ok, I've read all the horror stories about the wife selling the house or borrowing from loan sharks against it. Is there ANY way to protect yourself.

Change the wife! Get a girl from a family that you can trust and do not see you as an ATM machine.

[loong]

I know that you could get an agreement drawn up that if she sells the house she has to pay you x amount i.e you loan her the money. But if she secretly sells the place or takes out a loan , that agreement doesn't seem to cut it...

If you are married you will have to sign a statement that you have no financial interest in the property and that the money iused to purchase is you wife's. So any agreement to the contrary will not stand up. I know that some lawyers will write up these agreements, but they are effectively worthless.

[johnson36]

Apart from going the condo route do I have any other choices ?

You have multiple choices of varying complexity, but none of which provide total protection for all people in all circumstances. The closest thing would be a 30 year lease. All the different options and their respective advantages/disadvantages are discussed in earlier threads in this forum - you now need to spend some time going through these. There is no short/easy answer to your question. Also look in some other good web sites like www.samuiforsale.com and www.thailawonline.com

Is it possible to buy Land or a house in you wifes name and have a 30 year lease drawn up from your wife to yourself ?

If you wanted to move house could you and your wife cancel the lease to enable a sale and then buy another house and do another 30 year lease ?

If you were to seperate neither party would be able to sell the house and walk away with 100% of the money, you would have to agree to allow the lease to be cancelled to enable a sale, at which time you could agree to split the money maybe 50/50, 60/40 etc depending on how many you have been together ? is this correct ? can it be done ?

[chiangmaibruce]

Is it possible to buy Land or a house in you wifes name and have a 30 year lease drawn up from your wife to yourself ?

yes you can do it but it won't stand up in court if challenged.

There have been instances where Lands Dept staff have refused to note such as arrangement (any lease longer than 3 years needs to be certified), presumably because husband and wife in thailand are considered a single legal entity (ie. you are making a contract with yourself).

Now google on section 1469 Thailand Civil and Commercial Code - any contract betweem husband and wife can be later set aside. So maybe if the lease was signed before you got married ... and on it goes getting ever more involved.

[aussiebebe]

in 6 months or so I am going to buying a property. Now, I can either buy a condo and have it in my name or buying a house and putting it in her name.

Ok, I've read all the horror stories about the wife selling the house or borrowing from loan sharks against it. Is there ANY way to protect yourself.

Hi, I can sympathize with the way you feel - most Westerners like us have an innate desire to own property. If you are married to someone you don't trust, the solution is to rent: it requires a big shift in your way of thinking; this simply isn't our country. Please consider that these 'stories' you've read aren't just stories; this really happens and causes a lot of pain and hardship to real people. Buying a condo isn't a solution if you're with someone you don't trust – you could come home one day to find the locks have been changed! Before bemoaning Thailand, consider how such a scenario would play out in any Western country; your legal rights to reclaim any property from a shared dwelling would be close to zero.

[johnson36]

Now google on section 1469 Thailand Civil and Commercial Code - any contract betweem husband and wife can be later set aside. So maybe if the lease was signed before you got married ... and on it goes getting ever more involved.

Ive read that and understand it so thats not an option.

What about the foreigner buying the land or house in the wifes name and getting a lease made up to his mother, father, brother or sister, would that be allowed.

I know this all sounds a bit negative but who knows when things will go wrong, I bet theres plenty of people on here that have had there fingers burnt and wish they had thought about it more before spending several million baht in the wifes name. Nobody enters into a marriage on there wedding day thinking they will get divorced in the future but things do go wrong.

[scotsman]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Usufruct-Lon...rs-t232656.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Usufruct-Iss...ur-t252694.html

Have A look in the 2 treads above you will find ways to protect yourself that are perfectly legal.

Regards

Scotsman

[chiangmaibruce]

What about the foreigner buying the land or house in the wifes name and getting a lease made up to his mother, father, brother or sister, would that be allowed.

Ok, maybe that could work. You would need to nominate (in the lease) someone to whom the lease would be assigned to in the event that the lessee died. Maybe you would even write in the right to re-assign the lease and then they could sub-lease it to you. But when your wife bought the land you would probably have to sign a statement saying that you had no interest in the land. Would the proposed lease/sub-lease arrangement constitute an 'interest'?

These 'solutions' are all essentially ways of circumventing the law (some more transparently so than others) hence you tend to start any legal fight behind the eight-ball. An important variable (as in any legal wrangle) is how cashed-up and determined is the aggrieved party.

Scotsman has suggested another good approach - the usufruct (presumably a lifetime usufruct to a third party).

Again though, with any approach bringing in a third party ... how much do you trust that person? More than your wife? about the same? and if you have a conflict with them in the future ... how about then?

Edited March 29, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[ernest1966]

This is all about possibilities. I am not saying my wife is BAD. But at the end of the day you do not know what is going to happen, 5, 10 years down the line. I've read the horror stories and I just want to protect myself thats all.

Re: Locks being changed on a property legally in your name... Wouldn't that land her in jail ?

Are post-nups legal in Thailand , to quote: if you are married you will have to sign a statement that you have no financial interest in the property and that the money used to purchase is you wife's... now thats effectively a post-nup.... so you must be able to do the same if you want to buy a condo , so she has utterly no claim to it.

[trogers]

If you have such distrust, I suggest you acquire the landed property and then place it on a 25-year bank mortgage. And use the money from the mortgage to acquire a condo in your name for leasing.

I am sure 25 years is long enough to test the relationship.

[johnson36]

If you have such distrust, I suggest you acquire the landed property and then place it on a 25-year bank mortgage. And use the money from the mortgage to acquire a condo in your name for leasing.

I am sure 25 years is long enough to test the relationship.

I personally don't have any distrust but I bet all the guys who have lost houses, land and money to ex thai wives didn't have any distrust either. Ask anybody if they trust there wife and 99% will say yes.

[chiangmaibruce]

Re: Locks being changed on a property legally in your name... Wouldn't that land her in jail ?

My GUESS here is 'maybe not in the first instance'. If the property was acquired after marriage then it would be a marital asset and subject to splitting 50/50, therefore the police may not get involved as they would see her as an equal owner and the disagreement as a civil matter.

Are post-nups legal in Thailand , to quote: if you are married you will have to sign a statement that you have no financial interest in the property and that the money used to purchase is you wife's... now thats effectively a post-nup.... so you must be able to do the same if you want to buy a condo , so she has utterly no claim to it.

I think you are starting to confuse two lots of laws here - laws relating to ownership of land and laws relating to divorce and the splitting of marital assets.

I have read two lots of lawyers state that post-nups are legal in thailand, although I have only seen reference to pre-nups (referred to as ante-nuptial agreements) in the Civil and Commercial Code (S 1465).

Have a look at www.thailawonline.com

You could conceivably protect your condo with a pre-nup or post-nup, but I wouldn't count on the statement to the land office standing up as something to be used in this capacity. Assets owned by spouses can be separately owned, but that in itself doesn't mean they are excluded from possible later claim by the other spouse in a divorce situation.

[chiangmaibruce]

If you have such distrust, I suggest you acquire the landed property and then place it on a 25-year bank mortgage. And use the money from the mortgage to acquire a condo in your name for leasing.

I am sure 25 years is long enough to test the relationship.

I'm no whiz with mortgages but I don't think a bank would accept this arrangement. They would be lending money to buy an asset in one person's name using (as security) an asset in another person's name. Further, the husband would have earlier signed a statement saying he had no interest in the house/land. Maybe they would go for it if the condo was in joint names (?) but that would defeat the purpose of the exercise. Plus as per my other post, the wife could still potentially later make a claim for half of the condo anyway

[Orac]

Now google on section 1469 Thailand Civil and Commercial Code - any contract betweem husband and wife can be later set aside. So maybe if the lease was signed before you got married ... and on it goes getting ever more involved.

Ive read that and understand it so thats not an option.

What about the foreigner buying the land or house in the wifes name and getting a lease made up to his mother, father, brother or sister, would that be allowed.

I know this all sounds a bit negative but who knows when things will go wrong, I bet theres plenty of people on here that have had there fingers burnt and wish they had thought about it more before spending several million baht in the wifes name. Nobody enters into a marriage on there wedding day thinking they will get divorced in the future but things do go wrong.

Just a thought but, since the OP has recently had a child as per another thread, could the land be put in his childs name and then leased back to him - would this get round the husband/wife problem (and probably be easier to get the wife to accept as well as it provides for their child in the longer term)

[trogers]

If you have such distrust, I suggest you acquire the landed property and then place it on a 25-year bank mortgage. And use the money from the mortgage to acquire a condo in your name for leasing.

I am sure 25 years is long enough to test the relationship.

I'm no whiz with mortgages but I don't think a bank would accept this arrangement. They would be lending money to buy an asset in one person's name using (as security) an asset in another person's name. Further, the husband would have earlier signed a statement saying he had no interest in the house/land. Maybe they would go for it if the condo was in joint names (?) but that would defeat the purpose of the exercise. Plus as per my other post, the wife could still potentially later make a claim for half of the condo anyway

Last Sept, I sent in Bt2.55m from overseas to acquire a condo, complete with money transfer papers (TT3) and exchange rates statement. I bought the condo using only my Thai wife's name, and paid cash of it. Then I got her to mortgage it to Kasikorn bank for Bt1.2m (10 years) and used the cash credited to her bank account to acquire a smaller condo in my name. I used the money transfer papers from the first condo to acquire the 2nd condo. The bank do not check to see what you will do with the money from the mortgage.

The mortgaged property will only acquire positive value after 60% of the loan period. The rental income (after maintenance fees) from the 2nd condo is 1.2 times the monthly payment to the bank. If all goes well, you will have 2 properties, instead of one when the mortgage is paid up. And the 1st property cannot be released from the mortgage during negative value without discharging the outstanding principal and accurred interest.

[chiangmaibruce]

Just a thought but, since the OP has recently had a child as per another thread, could the land be put in his childs name and then leased back to him - would this get round the husband/wife problem (and probably be easier to get the wife to accept as well as it provides for their child in the longer term)

Yes they could. Yes it would. But it raises other issues in their place. In your example (for example) a minor child can't sign a contract hence I don't think he/she could legally enter into a lease.

[chiangmaibruce]

Last Sept, I sent in Bt2.55m from overseas to acquire a condo, complete with money transfer papers (TT3) and exchange rates statement. I bought the condo using only my Thai wife's name, and paid cash of it. Then I got her to mortgage it to Kasikorn bank for Bt1.2m (10 years) and used the cash credited to her bank account to acquire a smaller condo in my name. I used the money transfer papers from the first condo to acquire the 2nd condo. The bank do not check to see what you will do with the money from the mortgage.

That's interesting to hear TR. My only personal experience with mortgages has been in Australia (and well before this current global credit/recession thingy) ... and the banks there were a lot tighter with the process than what you experienced ... they would have asked for mortgages over BOTH properties.

[ernest1966]

trogers

It is not a matter of trust. unless your wife is a SAINT then she would be STUPID not to take advantage of the way the thai laws are stacked in her favour.

Everything is hers, so in effect it would be her decision to give you back any money.

That is the problem, because her decision would also be made by her mum, dad, aunts, uncles, cousins, girlfriends etc. And they would be saying "are you stupid, you want to give him back money..."

Ernest

Edited March 30, 2009 by ernest1966

[trogers]

<br />trogers<br /><br />It is not a matter of trust. unless your wife is a SAINT then she would be STUPID not to take advantage of the way the thai laws are stacked in her favour. <br /><br />Everything is hers, so in effect it would be her decision to give you back any money. <br /><br />That is the problem, because her decision would also be made by her mum, dad, aunts, uncles, cousins, girlfriends etc. And they would be saying "are you stupid, you want to give him back money..."<br /><br /><br />Ernest<br />

Even my method to mortgage the landed property and used the money to buy a condo requires the co-operation of your wife. If you think she (and her family) will not do so, I suggest you send in money to buy a condo instead.

I used my method purely from an investment point of view as I have known my wife for 20 years and we have been married for 14 years. But putting a property on mortgage will stop it from being easily resold or used as a collectral to a loan shark.

Edited March 30, 2009 by trogers

[hhgz]

"If you are married to someone you don't trust, the solution is to rent..."

No, the solution is to get a divorce. I find it utterly amazing the number of farang men who marry women they don't trust, and then wonder why the marriage just didn't work out, dang it.

[johnson36]

trogers

It is not a matter of trust. unless your wife is a SAINT then she would be STUPID not to take advantage of the way the thai laws are stacked in her favour.

Everything is hers, so in effect it would be her decision to give you back any money.

That is the problem, because her decision would also be made by her mum, dad, aunts, uncles, cousins, girlfriends etc. And they would be saying "are you stupid, you want to give him back money..."

Ernest

I agree Ernest

A relationship could seem to you to be perfect, you could trust your wife 100%. Then you spend 4 or 5 million baht on a house / land in her name, she now owns this, its hers 100%. Now the relationship could start to change. The fact that she is now worth 4 or 5 million baht and came from a family that had almost nothing could make things worse. Those arguments that you used to have with her that blew over after a few hours could get worse. At any period of time now she can tell you to pack your bags a &lt;deleted&gt; off. She will know this. Would you put 4 million in her bank and tell her its hers to to do with what she wants ? because its the same. I am like 99.9% of other members here and trust my wife 100% and also her family, but I am just going to careful when I invest (maybe 2010). I dont believe in the saying only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose, who wants to loose ? and who feels ok about loosing ? There are many people who are not millionares that can not afford to loose but would like to live in Thailand with there thai wives, they should be able to do this without the risk of loosing all there money. I will find away for myself. Land in wifes name, 30 year lease to my sister sounds good to me.

Edited March 30, 2009 by johnson36

[loong]

"If you are married to someone you don't trust, the solution is to rent..."

No, the solution is to get a divorce. I find it utterly amazing the number of farang men who marry women they don't trust, and then wonder why the marriage just didn't work out, dang it.

And I'm amazed at the number of Farang who marry women they DO trust and lose everything.

[chiangmaibruce]

And I'm amazed at the number of Farang who marry women they DO trust and lose everything.

I'll pay that

So very true

[473geo]

trogers

It is not a matter of trust. unless your wife is a SAINT then she would be STUPID not to take advantage of the way the thai laws are stacked in her favour.

Everything is hers, so in effect it would be her decision to give you back any money.

That is the problem, because her decision would also be made by her mum, dad, aunts, uncles, cousins, girlfriends etc. And they would be saying "are you stupid, you want to give him back money..."

Ernest

I agree Ernest

A relationship could seem to you to be perfect, you could trust your wife 100%. Then you spend 4 or 5 million baht on a house / land in her name, she now owns this, its hers 100%. Now the relationship could start to change. The fact that she is now worth 4 or 5 million baht and came from a family that had almost nothing could make things worse. Those arguments that you used to have with her that blew over after a few hours could get worse. At any period of time now she can tell you to pack your bags a &lt;deleted&gt; off. She will know this. Would you put 4 million in her bank and tell her its hers to to do with what she wants ? because its the same. I am like 99.9% of other members here and trust my wife 100% and also her family, but I am just going to careful when I invest (maybe 2010). I dont believe in the saying only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose, who wants to loose ? and who feels ok about loosing ? There are many people who are not millionares that can not afford to loose but would like to live in Thailand with there thai wives, they should be able to do this without the risk of loosing all there money. I will find away for myself. Land in wifes name, 30 year lease to my sister sounds good to me.

I really hope all goes well for you.........I know of one example where it would appear the 'lease' is no protection. If the Thai partner borrows from a loan shark against the property.....cannot repay.....what good is the lease to you? You are living in a property you no longer own.....the loan shark owns it.........and as per Heng on another thread.......may offer to rent it back to you. What are you going to do.....say wait......I have a lease??........the loan shark will say fine....pay off the loan thank you!!!!

Listen to what people are saying here....you are about to make a very important decision.

[ernest1966]

umm from all I have read I think my money is safer overseas

I might as well stay in her small house for the forseeable future.

Ernest

[loong]

I really hope all goes well for you.........I know of one example where it would appear the 'lease' is no protection. If the Thai partner borrows from a loan shark against the property.....cannot repay.....what good is the lease to you? You are living in a property you no longer own.....the loan shark owns it.........and as per Heng on another thread.......may offer to rent it back to you. What are you going to do.....say wait......I have a lease??........the loan shark will say fine....pay off the loan thank you!!!!

Listen to what people are saying here....you are about to make a very important decision.

If you are a leaseholder, you have never owned the property, the freeholder does. If the freehold is sold, the lease will stay intact. The leaseholder does not have to pay again.

[ernest1966]

I went onto the Isaan Lawyers website and read the bit up on usufructs of their pdf.

Two important things they do state:

In the section myths and facts usufructs point 6 about cancelling it. If you are married to the owner of the property Thai lawyers disagree on this subject. It states you need a second agreement or lease.

Point 7. Will I be fully protected ? Legal protection will not protect you in the face of reality.

Sorry to isaan lawyers if I have stolen any copyright.

Ernest

Edited March 30, 2009 by ernest1966

[473geo]

I really hope all goes well for you.........I know of one example where it would appear the 'lease' is no protection. If the Thai partner borrows from a loan shark against the property.....cannot repay.....what good is the lease to you? You are living in a property you no longer own.....the loan shark owns it.........and as per Heng on another thread.......may offer to rent it back to you. What are you going to do.....say wait......I have a lease??........the loan shark will say fine....pay off the loan thank you!!!!

Listen to what people are saying here....you are about to make a very important decision.

If you are a leaseholder, you have never owned the property, the freeholder does. If the freehold is sold, the lease will stay intact. The leaseholder does not have to pay again.

I think we are talking about payment to build a house

Then trying to protect that investment with a lease

The house is in the hands of a moneylender courtesy of whoever

You have by way of the lease tranferred that investment into a 30 year rent.... no house at the end of it

You are correct you never owned the house........so why not rent initially why build.....the lease is no protection for your original outlay.....may benefit you...... if..... you are allowed to stay in the house......or if as someone said to me......you want to hang around in the GF village after she has sold your house out under you!!!