Emergency Laws In Pattaya Lifted

[norwayeagle]

Well, this is getting tedious as several of you say very little constructive but think that debating and discussion is about dissecting the content of others' ideas instead.

For the record, I am a trained psychologist with a classical education and yes, I went to Cambridge. No big deal for me so don't even bother to comment on that but I tell you only to point out I have spent many years in that field and related subjects like anthropology and sociology. If you don't like proper argument which comes from proper education, no problem but then do not engage me. Thesis, antithesis and then synthesis each time and I do not ramble, you do...

It is fact that certain races, cultures and even genders are different. Smarter, more imaginative or even more malevolent at certain ages. Fact. Look it up and stop being so PC dim. All the girls are taller at 11 than the boys and smarter... In certain South American countries they have a third sex... The male sex is the prominent one at embryonic stage but by death is out-numbered by the female 2:1... Middle Eastern people have lower spacial awareness skills... Do I Need to go on... This is all in 'general'. I knew very smart PhD students from Thailand too. But general makes the population and if you look at the normal distribution, steroetypes are rarely wrong...

So, Thais are gentle. Score highly for EQ but not for IQ... Generally.. And have a low IQ Generally.... fact...

I do not look down on them. I feel sorry for them as this is a result of centuruies of deprivation and abuse by the ruling families from BKK but rather than support the casue of their repression, I want them to get them emancipation and have a working brain to think for themselves. That's so bad....?

My wife is Thai and I love here dearly as she knows her strengths and weaknesses. She is not the smartest tool in the box and she does not try to be but she has other very admirable and worthy traits and is a wonderful mother.

My son is already showing signs of being very bright even at 7 months so I am glad he has a good brain and good looks. A banana as the HK say - yellow on the outside but white on the inside. Yes, shock, horror, that's what they say in HK as they are plainly far more liberated and tolerant and not to be so PC to be stuck up their arse as in going-noand I will ensure he understands morals.

I love many aspects of Thailand but certainly not the inane stupidity of the farang who think they are soooo Thai but are just really unabel to think for themselves.

Grow up some of you and stop getting personal and if you have the guts explain your own beliefs to this level of detail, please do! Otherwise, stop being cynical and petty. We are all here to debate and we all have different views but there is no point being here if you cannot respect others and be honest to your own beliefs.

If you spend your time picking through others' posts looking for weakness, that makes you very, very weak indeed...

Did anyone else's jaw drop lower and lower as they read through that, or was it just me?

"...there were you, the belated seedling of an effete aristocracy!" T. Hardy.

Except you are far from aristocracy in LOS!

Eeeeeeeee Out of words ,,,

[way2muchcoffee]

OK, I will try again. Here's my new advice to you - assuming you are still in power as I write this, and assuming of course, that you are now ready to start listening to me

1. Kasit must go (you now have another opportunity to do it, in the interests of reconciliation)

2. You must agree to liaise with the opposition regarding the amnesty bill

(basically the 111 banned politicians to have their political rights reinstated, draw a line in the sand and give blanket amnesty to all protest leaders except any who can be directly implicated in any criminal activity, and also to the pending LM & Computer crime cases)

3. Initiate a complete round of political reform, including using the 1997 constitution as the starting point, but also including amendments to the LM and Computer Crime laws, looking at and concisely defining the role of the privy council, implementing a strict permit system for future protests (to put some rules in place as so that the never ending supply of gullible and bloody minded protesters can be kept in check otherwise no government will ever be able to do anything) - surely there are enough great unbiased minds in Thailand that can come up with something appropriate, but if there are still contentious items then they will need to go to a referendum

4. Set a strict, but realistic timetable for the above political reform process, including a date for the next election to be held as soon as the new rules are in place.

5. Request that all parties/sides/colors take a step back from protesting, and invite them to instead get involved in the political reform process.

6. Strictly implement rule of law without fear or favour

7. Thaksin???? - I'm thinking that he is a special case and a negotiated settlement needs to be reached with him, but who does the negotiating? Off the top of my head, the best solution I can come up with is a special act of parliament requiring say 75% approval.

(it will mainly need to be a financial settlement, however the amount might depend on whether he enters binding commitments relating to the extent of his future political involvement).

As usual, its just general rambling to get it off my chest, and the real experts would need to work out ways to facilitate the legalities.

Actually LevelHead, we finally agree on something. Most of what you have posted on these various threads I disagree with. However, with this one post you have articulately stated a solution that I generally agree with. It is rather similar to something I posted yesterday. Here were my suggestions:

Thoughts on Possible Solutions (Listed in Order)

1) The current government agrees to step down after necessary 'bipartisan' business is completed.

2) All members and leaders of protest groups are exonerated.

3) The constitution is rewritten to abolish the party dissolution clauses, with all sides taking part in the process.

4) Both sides agree to not pardon politicians previously found guilty of electoral fraud, but the ban is rescinded for leaders of banned parties who were not directly involved in the activities which led to party dissolution.

5) Laws are enacted to ensure that any politician found guilty of vote buying in the next elections is jailed.

6) Laws are put in place to severely criminalize public takeover of government facilities during protest movements.

7) Thaksin's money is returned minus the tax that would have been withheld had the tax laws not been changed just prior to the sale of ShinCorp.

8) Both sides agree to accept the victor or coalition party that wins.

9) Both sides agree to not exonerate Thaksin for his criminal behavior.

10) All agree that the Privy Council is an institution that is above politics as it functions directly for the monarchy.

11) The military agrees not to meddle.

12) Elections are held.

Edited April 12, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[jayboy]

Oh dear. I think someone is digging a large hole to jump into.

PAD cannot be brought to justice due to the long delays, months, years, in the legal procedure in Thailand excuse...............

Reds can be processed in a couple of days no problem.

This is a real problem, a feeling that the PAD is untouchable and protected while the Reds are immediately branded as "public enemies".Abhisit makes all the right noises about bringing the PAD criminals to book but nothing happens, confirming the perception that the PAD leadership will wriggle out of charges in the end.Clearly leaders of both colours need to be charged.What happened at Pattaya was unacceptable but no worse than what happened when the Yellows seized the international airport, particularly since the latter was the inspiration for the former.It remains of course ridiculous that Kasit is in the government.Let's hope he falls metaphorically on his sword very soon.

Incidentally I think you are a bit hard on OMR who is normally quite sensible and does recognise shade and nuance, although I agree he has completely lost it in his last few posts - no doubt the result of the frustration most of us feel.He makes the fair point incidentally that the Reds are not just a rural mass but I wonder if he grasps the implications of their increasing urban support.I have always known that the opponents of PAD (not the same thing as the Reds of course) contained a very large middle class and educated element.

A

[norwayeagle]

No PM of Thailand can ever win with some of you armchair farang commentators.

The sad?!?!?!? truth is, that "armchairfarangs" are ruling the world

[h90]

OK, I will try again. Here's my new advice to you - assuming you are still in power as I write this, and assuming of course, that you are now ready to start listening to me

1. Kasit must go (you now have another opportunity to do it, in the interests of reconciliation)

2. You must agree to liaise with the opposition regarding the amnesty bill

(basically the 111 banned politicians to have their political rights reinstated, draw a line in the sand and give blanket amnesty to all protest leaders except any who can be directly implicated in any criminal activity, and also to the pending LM & Computer crime cases)

3. Initiate a complete round of political reform, including using the 1997 constitution as the starting point, but also including amendments to the LM and Computer Crime laws, looking at and concisely defining the role of the privy council, implementing a strict permit system for future protests (to put some rules in place as so that the never ending supply of gullible and bloody minded protesters can be kept in check otherwise no government will ever be able to do anything) - surely there are enough great unbiased minds in Thailand that can come up with something appropriate, but if there are still contentious items then they will need to go to a referendum

4. Set a strict, but realistic timetable for the above political reform process, including a date for the next election to be held as soon as the new rules are in place.

5. Request that all parties/sides/colors take a step back from protesting, and invite them to instead get involved in the political reform process.

6. Strictly implement rule of law without fear or favour

7. Thaksin???? - I'm thinking that he is a special case and a negotiated settlement needs to be reached with him, but who does the negotiating? Off the top of my head, the best solution I can come up with is a special act of parliament requiring say 75% approval.

(it will mainly need to be a financial settlement, however the amount might depend on whether he enters binding commitments relating to the extent of his future political involvement).

As usual, its just general rambling to get it off my chest, and the real experts would need to work out ways to facilitate the legalities.

Actually LevelHead, we finally agree on something. Most of what you have posted on these various threads I disagree with. However, with this one post you have articulately stated a solution that I generally agree with. It is rather similar to something I posted yesterday. Here were my suggestions:

Thoughts on Possible Solutions (Listed in Order)

1) The current government agrees to step down after necessary 'bipartisan' business is completed.

2) All members and leaders of protest groups are exonerated.

3) The constitution is rewritten to abolish the party dissolution clauses, with all sides taking part in the process.

4) Both sides agree to not pardon politicians previously found guilty of electoral fraud, but the ban is rescinded for leaders of banned parties who were not directly involved in the activities which led to party dissolution.

5) Laws are enacted to ensure that any politician found guilty of vote buying in the next elections is jailed.

6) Laws are put in place to severely criminalize public takeover of government facilities during protest movements.

7) Thaksin's money is returned minus the tax that would have been withheld had the tax laws not been changed just prior to the sale of ShinCorp.

8) Both sides agree to accept the victor or coalition party that wins.

9) Both sides agree to not exonerate Thaksin for his criminal behavior.

10) All agree that the Privy Council is an institution that is above politics as it functions directly for the monarchy.

11) The military agrees not to meddle.

12) Elections are held.

13) We change nothing and continue like now.

[tim73]

Maybe you Brits should worry more about UK than Thailand, whether that foggy island will turn into mere Mad Max or even worse, "28 days later" barren wasteland, thanks to this global crisis. All those beautiful minds "with high IQ and low EQ or was it just high AQ" in London really screwed up this time...

[Heng]

There's nothing to be concerned about, this is an internal East Asian sphere of influence: Chinese/Japanese matter.

It's like fretting about tornadoes in Nebraska.

[h90]

Oh dear. I think someone is digging a large hole to jump into.

PAD cannot be brought to justice due to the long delays, months, years, in the legal procedure in Thailand excuse...............

Reds can be processed in a couple of days no problem.

This is a real problem, a feeling that the PAD is untouchable and protected while the Reds are immediately branded as "public enemies".Abhisit makes all the right noises about bringing the PAD criminals to book but nothing happens, confirming the perception that the PAD leadership will wriggle out of charges in the end.Clearly leaders of both colours need to be charged.What happened at Pattaya was unacceptable but no worse than what happened when the Yellows seized the international airport, particularly since the latter was the inspiration for the former.It remains of course ridiculous that Kasit is in the government.Let's hope he falls metaphorically on his sword very soon.

Incidentally I think you are a bit hard on OMR who is normally quite sensible and does recognise shade and nuance, although I agree he has completely lost it in his last few posts - no doubt the result of the frustration most of us feel.He makes the fair point incidentally that the Reds are not just a rural mass but I wonder if he grasps the implications of their increasing urban support.I have always known that the opponents of PAD (not the same thing as the Reds of course) contained a very large middle class and educated element.

A

The problem is that the red interrupted the summit. While the airport closed on itself while the yellows protested peaceful OUTSIDE. They went in later. No matter if it is true or not, it is what the official documents are telling.

[madi]

OK, I will try again. Here's my new advice to you - assuming you are still in power as I write this, and assuming of course, that you are now ready to start listening to me

1. Kasit must go (you now have another opportunity to do it, in the interests of reconciliation)

2. You must agree to liaise with the opposition regarding the amnesty bill

(basically the 111 banned politicians to have their political rights reinstated, draw a line in the sand and give blanket amnesty to all protest leaders except any who can be directly implicated in any criminal activity, and also to the pending LM & Computer crime cases)

3. Initiate a complete round of political reform, including using the 1997 constitution as the starting point, but also including amendments to the LM and Computer Crime laws, looking at and concisely defining the role of the privy council, implementing a strict permit system for future protests (to put some rules in place as so that the never ending supply of gullible and bloody minded protesters can be kept in check otherwise no government will ever be able to do anything) - surely there are enough great unbiased minds in Thailand that can come up with something appropriate, but if there are still contentious items then they will need to go to a referendum

4. Set a strict, but realistic timetable for the above political reform process, including a date for the next election to be held as soon as the new rules are in place.

5. Request that all parties/sides/colors take a step back from protesting, and invite them to instead get involved in the political reform process.

6. Strictly implement rule of law without fear or favour

7. Thaksin???? - I'm thinking that he is a special case and a negotiated settlement needs to be reached with him, but who does the negotiating? Off the top of my head, the best solution I can come up with is a special act of parliament requiring say 75% approval.

(it will mainly need to be a financial settlement, however the amount might depend on whether he enters binding commitments relating to the extent of his future political involvement).

As usual, its just general rambling to get it off my chest, and the real experts would need to work out ways to facilitate the legalities.

Actually LevelHead, we finally agree on something. Most of what you have posted on these various threads I disagree with. However, with this one post you have articulately stated a solution that I generally agree with. It is rather similar to something I posted yesterday. Here were my suggestions:

Thoughts on Possible Solutions (Listed in Order)

1) The current government agrees to step down after necessary 'bipartisan' business is completed.

2) All members and leaders of protest groups are exonerated.

3) The constitution is rewritten to abolish the party dissolution clauses, with all sides taking part in the process.

4) Both sides agree to not pardon politicians previously found guilty of electoral fraud, but the ban is rescinded for leaders of banned parties who were not directly involved in the activities which led to party dissolution.

5) Laws are enacted to ensure that any politician found guilty of vote buying in the next elections is jailed.

6) Laws are put in place to severely criminalize public takeover of government facilities during protest movements.

7) Thaksin's money is returned minus the tax that would have been withheld had the tax laws not been changed just prior to the sale of ShinCorp.

8) Both sides agree to accept the victor or coalition party that wins.

9) Both sides agree to not exonerate Thaksin for his criminal behavior.

10) All agree that the Privy Council is an institution that is above politics as it functions directly for the monarchy.

11) The military agrees not to meddle.

12) Elections are held.

HAAAA HAAAA

You are in fantasy land. No chance.

I noticed you left out the main power broker in your words.

Hardly any hope of any peaceful compromise exists in a nation where an elite has ruled for so long.

[way2muchcoffee]

I think when sides are as deeply entrenched as they are now there are only two general solutions.

1) They come together, make compromises and sacrifices, and move forward.

2) They remain entrenched and foment discord until widespread violence ensues.

[LevelHead]

Oh dear. I think someone is digging a large hole to jump into.

PAD cannot be brought to justice due to the long delays, months, years, in the legal procedure in Thailand excuse...............

Reds can be processed in a couple of days no problem.

This is a real problem, a feeling that the PAD is untouchable and protected while the Reds are immediately branded as "public enemies".Abhisit makes all the right noises about bringing the PAD criminals to book but nothing happens, confirming the perception that the PAD leadership will wriggle out of charges in the end.Clearly leaders of both colours need to be charged.What happened at Pattaya was unacceptable but no worse than what happened when the Yellows seized the international airport, particularly since the latter was the inspiration for the former.It remains of course ridiculous that Kasit is in the government.Let's hope he falls metaphorically on his sword very soon.

Incidentally I think you are a bit hard on OMR who is normally quite sensible and does recognise shade and nuance, although I agree he has completely lost it in his last few posts - no doubt the result of the frustration most of us feel.He makes the fair point incidentally that the Reds are not just a rural mass but I wonder if he grasps the implications of their increasing urban support.I have always known that the opponents of PAD (not the same thing as the Reds of course) contained a very large middle class and educated element.

A

The problem is that the red interrupted the summit. While the airport closed on itself while the yellows protested peaceful OUTSIDE. They went in later. No matter if it is true or not, it is what the official documents are telling.

Is there any law against stopping an ASEAN summit?

I seem to remember that there was no law against blocking an airport so thats why the action against the PAD is so slooooooow.

And now, the same excuse can be used by the Reds as there is no specific law pertaining to "ASEAN Summit prevention".......

[norwayeagle]

Maybe you Brits should worry more about UK than Thailand, whether that foggy island will turn into mere Mad Max or even worse, "28 days later" barren wasteland, thanks to this global crisis. All those beautiful minds "with high IQ and low EQ or was it just high AQ" in London really screwed up this time...

A beginning of a war always start with words`\

[madi]

Maybe you Brits should worry more about UK than Thailand, whether that foggy island will turn into mere Mad Max or even worse, "28 days later" barren wasteland, thanks to this global crisis. All those beautiful minds "with high IQ and low EQ or was it just high AQ" in London really screwed up this time...

A beginning of a war always start with words`\

I am no Brit but I find it funny that anyone would defend the wreck in Thailand by attacking the UK.

The UK is a functioning democracy and Thailand is not.

End of story

[Chaimai]

Maybe you Brits should worry more about UK than Thailand, whether that foggy island will turn into mere Mad Max or even worse, "28 days later" barren wasteland, thanks to this global crisis. All those beautiful minds "with high IQ and low EQ or was it just high AQ" in London really screwed up this time...

Sure you are posting in the right topic

Relevance factor 0/10 !

[PawyiLee]

I AM SITTING HERE INENGLAND THINKING TO MYSELF WHAT DO THESE THUGS CALLED RED SHIRTS WANT AND I HAVE DECIDED THAT THE DO NOT WANT DEMOCRACY ONLY WAR.MR THASKIN IS ONLY NAFTER ONE THING COMPLETE CONTROL OF THAILAN.WHY ISNT THE ARMY OR POLICE STOPPING THESE THUGS AND I SALUTE THE LOCAL PEOPLE IN PATTAYA IN THEIR BRAVE STANCE.

I HAVE INVESTED A FAIR BIT OF MONEY INTO THAILAND BUT NO MORE.I LOVE THAILAND BUT I AM AFRAID THAILAND IS HEADING INTO CIVIL WAR.

DAVID BOULDING

Good points - Abhisit is a very well educated guy. Although Thai, he was born and educated in the Uk. His degrees are genuine not bought or forged. I think he is well able to outsmart the criminal mob!

I am a big Abhisit supporter, but his intelligence won't help now. Other than the Blue shirts, there was really no other security at the hotel. Clearly, there was something else going on.

Not really. He was born in the UK, went to Eton, a top school and gained a 1st in PPE from Oxford which makes him exceptionally well educated and undoubtedly infelligent but that does not infer common sense, morals or foresight. And he is Thai after all so no amount of time in the UK changes the genes....

Which are Chinese.

[Chaimai]

Maybe you Brits should worry more about UK than Thailand, whether that foggy island will turn into mere Mad Max or even worse, "28 days later" barren wasteland, thanks to this global crisis. All those beautiful minds "with high IQ and low EQ or was it just high AQ" in London really screwed up this time...

A beginning of a war always start with words`\

I am no Brit but I find it funny that anyone would defend the wreck in Thailand by attacking the UK.

The UK is a functioning democracy and Thailand is not.

End of story

Agree - UK (like others) may be in the shi-ite financially but it can still organise an international conference. Anyway, also not relevant to this topic which is about Thailand's ability to manage it's own affairs etc. etc.....

[h90]

Oh dear. I think someone is digging a large hole to jump into.

PAD cannot be brought to justice due to the long delays, months, years, in the legal procedure in Thailand excuse...............

Reds can be processed in a couple of days no problem.

This is a real problem, a feeling that the PAD is untouchable and protected while the Reds are immediately branded as "public enemies".Abhisit makes all the right noises about bringing the PAD criminals to book but nothing happens, confirming the perception that the PAD leadership will wriggle out of charges in the end.Clearly leaders of both colours need to be charged.What happened at Pattaya was unacceptable but no worse than what happened when the Yellows seized the international airport, particularly since the latter was the inspiration for the former.It remains of course ridiculous that Kasit is in the government.Let's hope he falls metaphorically on his sword very soon.

Incidentally I think you are a bit hard on OMR who is normally quite sensible and does recognise shade and nuance, although I agree he has completely lost it in his last few posts - no doubt the result of the frustration most of us feel.He makes the fair point incidentally that the Reds are not just a rural mass but I wonder if he grasps the implications of their increasing urban support.I have always known that the opponents of PAD (not the same thing as the Reds of course) contained a very large middle class and educated element.

A

The problem is that the red interrupted the summit. While the airport closed on itself while the yellows protested peaceful OUTSIDE. They went in later. No matter if it is true or not, it is what the official documents are telling.

Is there any law against stopping an ASEAN summit?

I seem to remember that there was no law against blocking an airport so thats why the action against the PAD is so slooooooow.

And now, the same excuse can be used by the Reds as there is no specific law pertaining to "ASEAN Summit prevention".......

I am not sure but I think there are some laws protecting private property. These laws are stronger (I got told), they might need to pay 500 Baht immediately hahahahaha or get released on bail 5000 Baht till the courts decide in 5 years hahahaha

So you might be right! Maybe this country needs a dictator

[dttk0009]

OK, I will try again. Here's my new advice to you - assuming you are still in power as I write this, and assuming of course, that you are now ready to start listening to me

1. Kasit must go (you now have another opportunity to do it, in the interests of reconciliation)

2. You must agree to liaise with the opposition regarding the amnesty bill

(basically the 111 banned politicians to have their political rights reinstated, draw a line in the sand and give blanket amnesty to all protest leaders except any who can be directly implicated in any criminal activity, and also to the pending LM & Computer crime cases)

3. Initiate a complete round of political reform, including using the 1997 constitution as the starting point, but also including amendments to the LM and Computer Crime laws, looking at and concisely defining the role of the privy council, implementing a strict permit system for future protests (to put some rules in place as so that the never ending supply of gullible and bloody minded protesters can be kept in check otherwise no government will ever be able to do anything) - surely there are enough great unbiased minds in Thailand that can come up with something appropriate, but if there are still contentious items then they will need to go to a referendum

4. Set a strict, but realistic timetable for the above political reform process, including a date for the next election to be held as soon as the new rules are in place.

5. Request that all parties/sides/colors take a step back from protesting, and invite them to instead get involved in the political reform process.

6. Strictly implement rule of law without fear or favour

7. Thaksin???? - I'm thinking that he is a special case and a negotiated settlement needs to be reached with him, but who does the negotiating? Off the top of my head, the best solution I can come up with is a special act of parliament requiring say 75% approval.

(it will mainly need to be a financial settlement, however the amount might depend on whether he enters binding commitments relating to the extent of his future political involvement).

As usual, its just general rambling to get it off my chest, and the real experts would need to work out ways to facilitate the legalities.

Actually LevelHead, we finally agree on something. Most of what you have posted on these various threads I disagree with. However, with this one post you have articulately stated a solution that I generally agree with. It is rather similar to something I posted yesterday. Here were my suggestions:

Thoughts on Possible Solutions (Listed in Order)

1) The current government agrees to step down after necessary 'bipartisan' business is completed.

2) All members and leaders of protest groups are exonerated.

3) The constitution is rewritten to abolish the party dissolution clauses, with all sides taking part in the process.

4) Both sides agree to not pardon politicians previously found guilty of electoral fraud, but the ban is rescinded for leaders of banned parties who were not directly involved in the activities which led to party dissolution.

5) Laws are enacted to ensure that any politician found guilty of vote buying in the next elections is jailed.

6) Laws are put in place to severely criminalize public takeover of government facilities during protest movements.

7) Thaksin's money is returned minus the tax that would have been withheld had the tax laws not been changed just prior to the sale of ShinCorp.

8) Both sides agree to accept the victor or coalition party that wins.

9) Both sides agree to not exonerate Thaksin for his criminal behavior.

10) All agree that the Privy Council is an institution that is above politics as it functions directly for the monarchy.

11) The military agrees not to meddle.

12) Elections are held.

Thaksin, is that you?

[tim73]

I am no Brit but I find it funny that anyone would defend the wreck in Thailand by attacking the UK.

The UK is a functioning democracy and Thailand is not.

Mad Maggie with Reaganism-lite destroyed that island long ago. Thailand is a developing nation and many things are still pretty much "under development". But at least Thailand has a trade surplus and healthy industrial base to build upon unlike stupid western countries, building their utopian shopping mall nirvanas with easy credit. Now it is all coming crashing down and we will see how functioning those democracies really are.

[surfaxxis]

It was all about money. I wouldn't wonder if former yellow protesters are red shirts now. Many of our staffs and other workers i know, became offers between 1000 and 2000 Baht per person and day, to go there, got a red shirt from them and stay arround to protest a little bit. i guess most of the protesters don't care about politics anyway. They only go for the money. Where else they can get in 3 days between 3'000 and 6'000 Baht Salary? i think all the protests are a matter of how long the mob can support them.

At least red pays more than the yellows... they paid 1000bht per protester and took away their id cards so they could'nt leave, thats why they stayed at the airport and then ruined Thai's tourist industry, lets not forget who started this shit

[spidercat]

Maybe you Brits should worry more about UK than Thailand, whether that foggy island will turn into mere Mad Max or even worse, "28 days later" barren wasteland, thanks to this global crisis. All those beautiful minds "with high IQ and low EQ or was it just high AQ" in London really screwed up this time...

FYI - This is Thai Visa Forum.........A forum for discussing issues regarding Thailand. I am sure if you looked hard enough you may find a UK forum where your comments would be more apt!

[madi]

I am no Brit but I find it funny that anyone would defend the wreck in Thailand by attacking the UK.

The UK is a functioning democracy and Thailand is not.

Mad Maggie with Reaganism-lite destroyed that island long ago. Thailand is a developing nation and many things are still pretty much "under development". But at least Thailand has a trade surplus and healthy industrial base to build upon unlike stupid western countries, building their utopian shopping mall nirvanas with easy credit. Now it is all coming crashing down and we will see how functioning those democracies really are.

It is easy to have a trade surplus when you rape the workers with slave pay.

But back on topic.

Thailand made itself look like a second rate clown country again did it not?

YES

By the way--Thailand's economy is also a wreck now. This likely will add to the political unrest.

When people are making 3000 baht a month in the country side, and rich people who own the land live like pretend GODS, trouble is sure to follow.

The new generation of Thais will no longer take this abuse.

They system seems unable to change so i predict that the Thai system we see now will BREAK.

Soon

[xminator]

no, he is incompetent because he allowed his Deputy Suthep to employ militant thugs as "security" - instead of using more than sufficient, mcuh numbered, well trained and disciplined army + police forces !

Or maybe they dont trust that the cannon fodder in the army and police is really behind them in heart and minds... Dont forget that most of them come from not exactly rich backgrounds and this governments backers most likely have their own sons very far away from any chance of harm. Of course, this is something that I cant back by evidence, but based on all experience from countries with an minority elite this elite aint exactly doing foot patrols in Yala...

Maybe this country needs a dictator

Be carefull what you wish for.

[sinewave]

Sadly OldMadRiver is one of the hardcore Yellows who will never change their mind or allow free thought.

I posted "Thaksin took from the rich Elite and gave to the lower levels to spread it".

OMR says "gave to the poor".

No, I did not say that. He spread it about to the levels below the Elite, which in turn spread it out amongst more people by the chain reaction, as opposed to it being taken all by just a very few uber rich elite.

OMR says Thaksin did not crack down on corruption, he did, in a big way, but he cracked down the Elite and allowed a lot more lower level fingers in the pie. (1)You cannot take a society that is used to total corruption and make it clean in one foul swoop. What you can do is spread it out more and more until so many fingers are in the pie that its so diluted that finally it becomes of no real importance, and from that stage, you clean it up.

(2)The drugs trade is run by the Elite,(3) how on earth do you think all the drugs get into Thailand and transported so easily around the place. Are the Army so useless they cannot patrol the borders or are they turning a blind eye on purpose? You choose! This was the first big run in between Thaksin and the Elite......by clamping down on drugs it stopped their income from this illicit trade and this was the first stage of upsetting them. Its well (4) documented how the drugs factories in Burma run at very low production levels once the crackdown was in place.

OMR might have Democrat connections, or their business may be suited to have Dems in power, but do not let these people with their lies and unproven allegations cloud peoples minds.

(5)Thaksin has never been proven to have taken any money for himself. And until such time as he is, he is innocent of any charges of taking money for himself.

One must be very careful not to allow the "anti-Thaksin" hype and propoganda to cloud the real issue and problem, and that is of course the 2006 coup and all events that followed.

Thailand needs its 1997 Peoples constitution back really.

(1) Aphisit destroyed any credibility Thaksin may have had in one clean sweep by not taking forceful action against the reds in Pattaya...checkmate

(2a) Bullshit...the methamphetamine drug trade is not run by any single entity, its a conglomeration of many different importers of methamphetamine (yabaa) burmese goods, mainly the Wah State army, which then redistributes to regional wholesalers which make individual runs to bangkok or other provinces.

The defect KMT troops in Mae Salong use to charge a fee to let them through the area until Khun Sa challenged them with a 500 strong mule train.

(2b) Crystal methamphetamine (ice) IS mainly imported from China this is the major source for Pseudoephedrine the other source is India- the main component needed to create this drug as well as regular methamphetamine(yabaa).

(2c) Marijuana is imported from Laos and Cambodia...Weed is a big load that smells, that couldnt possibly make it from the north/burma to the central region. It has to come by boat eg: Mekong river.

(2d) Opium is imported from Burma as well as grown within Thai borders.

(2d) Cocaine - Africans are the importers, their trade mark is wrapping coca in end tips of plastic bags, like the ones from 7-11.

(3) My statements above can easily illustrate how hard it is to entrap drug dealers, the government does not know which direction they are coming from, most seasoned dealers use old trade routes not on the maps. I can go to the Tachilek border and scoop up 100 tabs, and no one would know. Long time residents in these border areas do not need paperwork to travel between borders, because they are well known to the officials.

(4) Of course drug factories run at lower levels during a crackdown. Why would they boost production to get caught?

(5) I have a relative that paid millions of baht under the table to get the contract to construct part of the new airport. Not directly to Thaksin, but to his relatives.

why are drugs easily distributed you ask? its not because of the elitist...it's the fires that are lit every year to supposedly clear old brush....the smoke blocks satellite imagery of the mule trains. Dogs become useless, binoculars become useless, heat sensing radar becomes useless, soldiers become useless because they are not native to the territory, and lookouts see them coming from a mile away.

You really want to end the meth drug trade you have to monitor the Indian border, since thailand does not have a border with India, its up to burma and everyone knows thats not going to happen.

So they set the brush fires in the north. If you look at drug seizures for any given year, the incidence of brush fires will be corresponding in relation.

[robokop]

The first and major responsibility of government is the safety and well being of the people they serve. This in part is done by maintaining peace and order. The Blue shirts, who ever they were, were a group causing trouble and disrupting the peace. The government should not allow or sponser a group that threatenes even the well being of even one Thai citizen. It appeared on TV that the Blue shirts formed their position to confront the red shirts and were in between the government forces and the red shirts. It is safe to assume that they did not walk through the ranks of the red shirts and then go in front of them and start the physical violence. When the blue shirts were routed, they ran to the safety of the government forces and were protected and allowed to escape the red shirts. The government, which is suppose to maintain public order and not allow anarchy to set in, should have arrested those armed blue shirts, but did not. It would have been very interesting to see who paid and organized the blue shirts to commit violence to stop the red shirts, something the government police and military were not allowed to do.

[Heng]

It is easy to have a trade surplus when you rape the workers with slave pay.

It's completely consensual.

[chuang]

Abhisit raps 'enemies of the state'

They are "enemies of the state", and legal action must be taken against them, he said.

-- Bangkok Post 2009-04-11

"enemies of the state" what hypocrisy.....when the yellow shirts took over the government house and the airport last year what had Abhisit said..nothing...he even appointed a prime speakes at the PAD rallies as his FM..one who insists that the takeover of the airport by PAD is right.."you have good music and free food provided by PAD......have the PAD being brought to justice...

[LuckyFive8888]

A simple summary of events could be (and there is no implication this is actually what happened, its for discussion purposes only) -

Thaksin was getting too powerful and well liked.

- no, i think thaksin was getting out of control ie. incident in the muslim south, drug war deaths, conflict of interest.

Thaksin was clamping down on corruption of the Elites.

- he was the most corrupt of them all ie. the burma deals, shincorps sales, land deals, etc.

Thaksin was spreading the money out to the people, like Robin Hood, take it from the top level Elite and give to the lower levels and spread the wealth.

- this is thaksin's strategy (management style) to win the heart of the poor people (majority) so to stay in power.

This upset the Elite.

- who do you think the elites are? is thaksin not elite himself?

They paid big money for a coup.

- source?

[Heng]

Thaksin is new elite. He comes from old "relative" wealth, not old "absolute" wealth. To put it in farang terms, Thaksin has a non-immigrant O visa, while the elites have permanent residency.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Heng

[chuang]

http://nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/2009/04/ab...old-you-so.html

Saturday, April 11, 2009

Abhisit: I told you so!

.

OK, I will try again. Here's my new advice to you - assuming you are still in power as I write this, and assuming of course, that you are now ready to start listening to me

1. Kasit must go (you now have another opportunity to do it, in the interests of reconciliation)

2. You must agree to liaise with the opposition regarding the amnesty bill

(basically the 111 banned politicians to have their political rights reinstated, draw a line in the sand and give blanket amnesty to all protest leaders except any who can be directly implicated in any criminal activity, and also to the pending LM & Computer crime cases)

3. Initiate a complete round of political reform, including using the 1997 constitution as the starting point, but also including amendments to the LM and Computer Crime laws, looking at and concisely defining the role of the privy council, implementing a strict permit system for future protests (to put some rules in place as so that the never ending supply of gullible and bloody minded protesters can be kept in check otherwise no government will ever be able to do anything) - surely there are enough great unbiased minds in Thailand that can come up with something appropriate, but if there are still contentious items then they will need to go to a referendum

4. Set a strict, but realistic timetable for the above political reform process, including a date for the next election to be held as soon as the new rules are in place.

5. Request that all parties/sides/colors take a step back from protesting, and invite them to instead get involved in the political reform process.

6. Strictly implement rule of law without fear or favour

7. Thaksin???? - I'm thinking that he is a special case and a negotiated settlement needs to be reached with him, but who does the negotiating? Off the top of my head, the best solution I can come up with is a special act of parliament requiring say 75% approval.

(it will mainly need to be a financial settlement, however the amount might depend on whether he enters binding commitments relating to the extent of his future political involvement).

As usual, its just general rambling to get it off my chest, and the real experts would need to work out ways to facilitate the legalities.

Sorry mate Abhisit is not THE GOVERNMENT, he is just the face for the government..