Emergency Laws In Pattaya Lifted

[tim73]

I just keep wondering, do you guys really want a good and democratic Thailand? Or just acting like self-rightenous asses while shouting to your Thai ladies there "where is my beer"? Condo Armchair Commandos strike again? Actually going to those demonstrations would be no-no because one could actually get hurt that way?

[Knightsbridge]

I've been following the BBC a lot too - far less biased than the Nation or the Bangkok post ...

I think ThaiVisa is a great news resource for expats, but I am always astonished by the naivete of so much of its readership. There are so many uninformed expats that are willing to take them words from Thai media and call them 'news'. The Nation and the Bangkok Post are sloppy in their local coverage at the best of times, and since the onset of the Red protests has been obviously biased. Anyone who saw coverage on the BBC or CNN or Al Jazeera would have seen that the blue shirts were big, masked, and ALL armed. Do not take these government mouthpieces literally. It's true some of the Reds are rabid Thaksinites, but a great number of them are just asking for their votes to be counted, and for the courts to stop meddling in politics. The reds have protested in the tens of thousands... almost without incident. The yellows had a few thousand protesters who masked themselves and attacked people with clubs, knives, machetes, bombs, and guns. Regardless of what happens going forward, the reds have heretofore showed great constraint and a desire to achieve their aims through non-violent means.

If you've come here from a democratic country, how can you fail to recognize the wrong the PAD and the Thai courts have done the electorate by ignoring abuses on one side, and rewarding the other? The PAD have been openly lobbying for a constitution that gives the people of Thailand only 30 percent representation in the government! Do your homework folks...

The Nation are now calling this a WAR?

[h90]

BBC just said there is a state of emergency declared in BKK

TOC, and the Nation report the same!

have new topic already: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/State-Emerge...ok-t256596.html

[Vindie]

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin.

Been ignored because it's not true. The reds and Thaksin are inextricably linked. It's a shame because if the reds were fighting for all the things they say they are, and they were against Thaksin, they would have a lot of credibility.

They wanted prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport.

Fair enough, but logically if they want that, they will also be demanding that they themselves are prosecuted for what happened in Pattaya, right?

From a Thai perspective, who would you fight for? Tell me about an MP who isn't corrupt. Most Thais I have spoken to, for or against, don't argue about whether Thaksin was corrupt or not. There weren't mass protests when he was prosecuted or even after the coup. The reason they aren't "against" him though, is because he gave with one hand while he was taking with the other. I think on the world stage they'd benefit greatly from his absence, but realistically, and in a Thai context, he is very important. He gives the movement a face, and he is undeniably popular with the grass roots of Thailand.

Historically, Thailand's politicians have always taken all they could with both hands. That's the signature difference between Thaksin and the rest. I have heard a lot of moderates speak of Thaksin as being a better evil than those who came before. The Thais didn't elect him because he was clean... they elected him because he was giving -something- back to the people. Abhisit and the Democrats who fought all of Thaksin's policies have been scrambling to embrace them to ingratiate themselves with the public.

Politics in Thailand are not politics in the west. This is a young democracy and for a short while seemed to be functioning remarkably well considering the status of its neighbors. I don't like the guy, personally... but I can't really argue with people when they tell me that there hasn't been anyone better.

As for the guy screaming that the red movement is pure Thaksin... I'd like to say that I know quite a lot of red supporters and some yellows as well. Several of the red supporters DID NOT vote for Thaksin, but they do understand what democracy is. They don't give a whit what happens to Thaksin. They just want a democratically elected government. On the flipside, the yellows seem to be purely motivated by their hatred of Thaksin. If you ask them about the Democrats or other MPs, they always bring up Thaksin and berate him rather than sharing discussing any positive aspects of their propped up regime.

I wish someone could get a well-spoken red and a well-spoken yellow to have a civil debate with a moderator. It would be fascinating. We here are just a bunch of farangs second guessing what's going on, but it's obvious that the rhetoric on both sides does little to reveal the truth.

[edwardmoulton]

So Abhisit is incompentent because a bunch of red shirts are protesting? What exactly can he do to stop it? I don't see any suggestions other than suggesting he is "inneffectual" and "incomptetent."' For what reason? What could Samak and Somchai do to stop the yellow shirts? Absolutely nothing. The only thing he could do is to declare martial law and have the police use force and violence to stop the protests, possibly causing death. Would you call him an incompetent leader then? Or, would you call him a tyrant and a lover of violence? No PM of Thailand can ever win with some of you armchair farang commentators.

no, he is incompetent because he allowed his Deputy Suthep to employ militant thugs as "security" - instead of using more than sufficient, mcuh numbered, well trained and disciplined army + police forces !

or may be even if it wasn't Suthep who employed them but Newin - Suthep nodded and done nothing to prevent those Blue from acting as so called "security" !

neither Abhisit did nothing to "uphold the law" - to find the Blue gunmen who shot at Reds (nice "security", huh ?) whom Reds demanded to be arrested.

or do you consider this as competence ?

in my view those responsible for this debarcle are the organisers of the summit, no one else

a wedding planner dealing with the prospect of trouble from a spurned ex boyfriend could have done a better job of organising this event

i initially thought that the choice of venue was a good idea

the royal cliff and peach are accessible by a limited number of roads

it has a helicopter landing pad

it has a fine hotel and facilities for the guests

relatively easy to secure one would have thought

this was an important summit so had i been the organiser

i would have booked the whole hotel for the summit weekend

relocated any existing guests to other hotels at the governments expense

completely block all access roads by tanks and cement blocks at multiple locations and backed up by army and police

i would park a warship from Sattahip opposite the royal cliff to observe beach access with frequent security sweeps by navy personnnel in rubber dinghys

all staff (who had been background checked, any red sympahisers would not be allowed to work that weekend) would stay at the hotel over the weekend in the empty rooms

there would be no one allowed in or out except by helicopter.

any urgent supplies needed could be brought in by chopper

a medical centre would be set up inside the cliff for the benefit of the participants

any serious medical emergencies could have been choppered to BPH

a seige was widely expected so why not adopt a seige mentality to protect the participants?

all the VIP's and their ontourages would be flown in from swampy or utapau by helicopter and would have to be accomodated in the royal cliff hotel 24 hours prior to the event

there would be no exceptions, no other accomodation would be acceptable

all press and TV crews would also be accomodated inside the royal cliff

then once you are in, you are in until its over.

if you are not there on time, you are excluded

as an aside, keeping the world leaders captive in the royal cliff would have been a good move in my view

after all do you really want some of the worlds most important people to see for themselves what a shithole Pattaya really is?

if there was an incursion into the exclusion zone then don't cancel the summit, be a little creative

just ring a big hotel in Samet or Samui and book a room for the day or book the whole hotel

fly the army out there to secure the venue and move the summit meetings there and if neccesary fly the VIP's back at night for the organised dinners at the cliff etc

cancel the ferries to the island until its over or even move the meeting to the warship offshore

or move them to Utapau air base sit them in a hanger, security is in place there already

do anything, move them anywhere but do not cancel the event.

if Aphisit had outflanked the reds by a little creative thinking, today he would have been applauded and thaksins ambitions thwarted.

but what did we get?

VIPs located at hotels all over town to have to run the gauntlet by car to get there.

(god knows its tough enough getting from the dusit to the cliff on a good day!).

this alone was a recipe for disaster

when a demonstration was expected and widely publised in advance, why would you have anyone drive there to participate as opposed to making a simple 30 metres walk across the car park from the Cliff reception to Peach?

which moron allowed that to happen?

its those heads that should roll not the PM's

for me, anyone involved in the organisation of this summit should be fired right now.

Some on here have been taking issue with my honest comments on the differences between Western and Thai thinking. This is a prime example. Even a junior team of officials would have handled the meeting along similar lines to those you suggest and I have also suggested earlier but these things simply to do not occur to most Thais and obviously did not to the most senior and experienced people Abhsist could find as is evidences by the way they failed in planning any organisation, logistics or security for Pattaya.... I hope this makes the point clearly enough now that the Thai brain is very different to the Western brain....

[spidercat]

I just keep wondering, do you guys really want a good and democratic Thailand? Or just acting like self-rightenous asses while shouting to your Thai ladies there "where is my beer"? Condo Armchair Commandos strike again? Actually going to those demonstrations would be no-no because one could actually get hurt that way?

Whoa.....TIME OUT Tim, Time out. So who has upset you old chap. There's absolutely no reason at all why you should come on here and insult ALL TV members. We are just having a civilised debate here and as far as I am aware we are entitled to an opinion, as are you but please refrain from insults- Its immature.

[eldar1]

From a Thai perspective, who would you fight for? Tell me about an MP who isn't corrupt. Most Thais I have spoken to, for or against, don't argue about whether Thaksin was corrupt or not. There weren't mass protests when he was prosecuted or even after the coup. The reason they aren't "against" him though, is because he gave with one hand while he was taking with the other. I think on the world stage they'd benefit greatly from his absence, but realistically, and in a Thai context, he is very important. He gives the movement a face, and he is undeniably popular with the grass roots of Thailand.

Historically, Thailand's politicians have always taken all they could with both hands. That's the signature difference between Thaksin and the rest. I have heard a lot of moderates speak of Thaksin as being a better evil than those who came before. The Thais didn't elect him because he was clean... they elected him because he was giving -something- back to the people. Abhisit and the Democrats who fought all of Thaksin's policies have been scrambling to embrace them to ingratiate themselves with the public.

Politics in Thailand are not politics in the west. This is a young democracy and for a short while seemed to be functioning remarkably well considering the status of its neighbors. I don't like the guy, personally... but I can't really argue with people when they tell me that there hasn't been anyone better.

As for the guy screaming that the red movement is pure Thaksin... I'd like to say that I know quite a lot of red supporters and some yellows as well. Several of the red supporters DID NOT vote for Thaksin, but they do understand what democracy is. They don't give a whit what happens to Thaksin. They just want a democratically elected government. On the flipside, the yellows seem to be purely motivated by their hatred of Thaksin. If you ask them about the Democrats or other MPs, they always bring up Thaksin and berate him rather than sharing discussing any positive aspects of their propped up regime.

I wish someone could get a well-spoken red and a well-spoken yellow to have a civil debate with a moderator. It would be fascinating. We here are just a bunch of farangs second guessing what's going on, but it's obvious that the rhetoric on both sides does little to reveal the truth.

You raise some valid points, but the fact remains is that thaksin is a convicted criminal and there are other politicians out there to vote on. As a movement you are only making it harder on yourself by linking yourself with such an abrasive and divisive figure, wouldn't it be better to not link with any single person or at least with a person not tainted with abuse of power convictions?

Thaksin is just not democratic so by supporting him ones does not support democracy. Neither is he perse the lesser of two evils, just because of a couple of populist policies that are not sustainable in the long term. He presents an equal threat to the democratic system that the army reprisents, countless times he has attacked the checks and balances that previous governments had implented are much resistance from army/old elites. No Democratic he is not, so by linking with him ones does not really support democracy, ones just opposes the current government, there is a difference

[Guest Reimar]

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