What Has Thaskin Done To Be Villified So?

[gbt71fa]

I would like to get information, actually facts if possible, about what Thaskin as supposedly done. I read where one write explained how Thaskin controlled the rice export market and proportioned it out to his family and freinds. That is the kind of informationt that I want. I don't want to hear about rumors how he killed innocents durring the drug wars unless you have some sort of fact to back it up, not rumors.

Also, are we trying to force our western ideology on Thailand. Too many of you seem all too willing to ignore other evils in the world for the sake that "it will get worst if we get involved" or "we can force them into our own cultural context". If that applies to other parts of the world, than why not here? What say do we have as guests here if our cultural is so vastly different? If you won't fight for it abroad than why fight for it in Thailand. It seems like all politicians are corrupt in one way or another in Thailand and is that the name of the game in Thailand. If Thaskin was indeed corrupt how was he different from any of the others? Did Thailand prosper under his rule besides his corruption as a whole; economy, infrastructure, education, ect. or was just a small group that was close to him that earned the fruits of his labor? Was he overthrown because he became more powerful than the military or put his beloved police above the military? I assume that he did buy off votes but has any of the other parties done this as well and is it just a recent phenomenon?

So, all I am asking is for informational facts pertaining to what Thaskin has done. Keep emotion out of it

[kennkate]

I would like to get information, actually facts if possible, about what Thaskin as supposedly done. I read where one write explained how Thaskin controlled the rice export market and proportioned it out to his family and freinds. That is the kind of informationt that I want. I don't want to hear about rumors how he killed innocents durring the drug wars unless you have some sort of fact to back it up, not rumors.

Also, are we trying to force our western ideology on Thailand. Too many of you seem all too willing to ignore other evils in the world for the sake that "it will get worst if we get involved" or "we can force them into our own cultural context". If that applies to other parts of the world, than why not here? What say do we have as guests here if our cultural is so vastly different? If you won't fight for it abroad than why fight for it in Thailand. It seems like all politicians are corrupt in one way or another in Thailand and is that the name of the game in Thailand. If Thaskin was indeed corrupt how was he different from any of the others? Did Thailand prosper under his rule besides his corruption as a whole; economy, infrastructure, education, ect. or was just a small group that was close to him that earned the fruits of his labor? Was he overthrown because he became more powerful than the military or put his beloved police above the military? I assume that he did buy off votes but has any of the other parties done this as well and is it just a recent phenomenon?

So, all I am asking is for informational facts pertaining to what Thaskin has done. Keep emotion out of it

Me Too We Wait in eager anticipation Best We Take Cover Now

[kennkate]

Well I am suprised Maybe the FACTS are. They dont have any

COME ON

[mc2]

he did a lot of good things.

a few not so good things.

very popular, too popular... someone got jealous and a bit scared.

so they decided to turn him into a boogy man.

kicked him out of office, brainwashed part of the population... the media went along for the ride

[DagonKhan]

Half a dozen of one and six of the other, they're all the same.

[gbt71fa]

he did a lot of good things.

a few not so good things.

very popular, too popular... someone got jealous and a bit scared.

so they decided to turn him into a boogy man.

kicked him out of office, brainwashed part of the population... the media went along for the ride

I'm sure he catered to the masses. They all do that and I'm not saying that is right. Obama did his part in the U.S. by saying 95% of the population will pay less taxes when only 40% of the population pays taxes. In a way, that is buying a part of the public, the poorer part with the promise of free money. I bet it is a tried and true practice. But did the other political parties do this as well? Thaskin has been accussed of murder and every other sin. I just want to hear the facts.

[AceCafe]

Prove it? No, of course we cannot. (Anyone who could might well be "dissapeared" by now!) But surely an educated person would not believe all these reports are without foundation, no?

Thaksin's "war on drugs" campaign in 2003 resulted in the extrajudicial killing of more than 2,500 people. Although local and international media reported and recorded hundreds of cases of police officials shooting and killing unarmed civilians - always in self-defense according to official accounts - to date not one Thai official has been prosecuted or even reprimanded for his or her role in the unprecedented orgy of violence.

Thaksin's heavy-handed counterinsurgency policies in Thailand's conflict-ridden south resemble an Augusto Pinochet-style dirty war. Rights groups say hundreds of Thai Muslims have gone missing since the conflict kicked up in 2004, a charge Thaksin has consistently contested. Yet there are many examples of security forces implementing his policies using arbitrary and often excessive force, including the April 2004 siege on the Krue Se Mosque, the point-blank shooting in the back of the heads of 19 restrained and handcuffed young Muslims at Saba Yoi, and the October 2004 death by suffocation of at least 78 Muslim civilians at Tak Bai.

There are plenty of other cases where individual liberties, then protected by the progressive 1997 constitution, were apparently smothered without legal recourse by Thaksin's abuse of state power. For instance, Thaksin has publicly admitted to state complicity in the still-unresolved disappearance case of Muslim human-rights lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit, who was abducted by Thai intelligence officials in Bangkok in an apparent effort to suppress his submitting evidence of police torture of five detained Muslim men he was representing. That damning evidence, it was later revealed, included medical proof of security forces' using electric-shock treatment on one of the bound suspects' testicles.

Then there is the mysterious unresolved shooting death of Kornthep Wiriya, a former customs employee of Shin Satellite, the publicly listed telecommunication concern established by Thaksin and until last January majority-owned by his family. Kornthep apparently made the mistake of agreeing to serve as a prosecution witness in a politically charged 100 million baht (US$2.6 million) tax-evasion case against the company. He was ambushed and shot in the head by unidentified assailants while riding his motorcycle before he could testify in court.

[ernest1966]

I read about the war on terror. Everyone hates Taksin for that.

You hand the police force an order to crack down on drugs. They are in effect a law unto themselves. Already corrupt to the core, what do you expect apart from mass murder and cover ups.

But for the life of me I can't justify hanging the results of such a stupid decision on Taksin. He did not kill 2500 people, the police did. Yes he was an idiot for letting them have free reign.

[ThaisGood]

An excellent question.

Thailand advanced a great deal under Thaksin. I was very impressed with the way he handled the international financiers in 1997 (IMF) after the Asian financial meltdown. Books could be written about the genius of Thailand's leadership maneuvers during that time. The same sophisticated bankers are, ironically, now focused on other countries who offer much less resistance to banking control.

During the Tsunami in 2004, more great leadership from Thaksin.

In between all of that I've seen extraordinary advances in the Thai infrastructure.

I with he'd get elected in my part of the world.

[gbt71fa]

Prove it? No, of course we cannot. (Anyone who could might well be "dissapeared" by now!) But surely an educated person would not believe all these reports are without foundation, no?

Thaksin's "war on drugs" campaign in 2003 resulted in the extrajudicial killing of more than 2,500 people. Although local and international media reported and recorded hundreds of cases of police officials shooting and killing unarmed civilians - always in self-defense according to official accounts - to date not one Thai official has been prosecuted or even reprimanded for his or her role in the unprecedented orgy of violence.

Thaksin's heavy-handed counterinsurgency policies in Thailand's conflict-ridden south resemble an Augusto Pinochet-style dirty war. Rights groups say hundreds of Thai Muslims have gone missing since the conflict kicked up in 2004, a charge Thaksin has consistently contested. Yet there are many examples of security forces implementing his policies using arbitrary and often excessive force, including the April 2004 siege on the Krue Se Mosque, the point-blank shooting in the back of the heads of 19 restrained and handcuffed young Muslims at Saba Yoi, and the October 2004 death by suffocation of at least 78 Muslim civilians at Tak Bai.

There are plenty of other cases where individual liberties, then protected by the progressive 1997 constitution, were apparently smothered without legal recourse by Thaksin's abuse of state power. For instance, Thaksin has publicly admitted to state complicity in the still-unresolved disappearance case of Muslim human-rights lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit, who was abducted by Thai intelligence officials in Bangkok in an apparent effort to suppress his submitting evidence of police torture of five detained Muslim men he was representing. That damning evidence, it was later revealed, included medical proof of security forces' using electric-shock treatment on one of the bound suspects' testicles.

Then there is the mysterious unresolved shooting death of Kornthep Wiriya, a former customs employee of Shin Satellite, the publicly listed telecommunication concern established by Thaksin and until last January majority-owned by his family. Kornthep apparently made the mistake of agreeing to serve as a prosecution witness in a politically charged 100 million baht (US$2.6 million) tax-evasion case against the company. He was ambushed and shot in the head by unidentified assailants while riding his motorcycle before he could testify in court.

Where is this article from? I need the source of the article. The newspaper it came from. It seem more of an editorial than a straight news story. I am not saying that it is not true. I remember the stories that Thailand had secret U.S. C.I.A. prisons holding muslim extremists and that turned out to be bumpkus.

Edited April 14, 2009 by gbt71fa

[ThaisGood]

very popular, too popular... someone got jealous and a bit scared.

Here we have the answer.

[gbt71fa]

I read about the war on terror. Everyone hates Taksin for that.

You hand the police force an order to crack down on drugs. They are in effect a law unto themselves. Already corrupt to the core, what do you expect apart from mass murder and cover ups.

But for the life of me I can't justify hanging the results of such a stupid decision on Taksin. He did not kill 2500 people, the police did. Yes he was an idiot for letting them have free reign.

I have no arguement with calling the Thai police corrupt because they are. I have first hand experience in that. But was this going on before his rule and also after?

[Sir Burr]

But for the life of me I can't justify hanging the results of such a stupid decision on Taksin. He did not kill 2500 people, the police did. Yes he was an idiot for letting them have free reign.

You think the police would kill all those people without a wink and a nod from Toxin? He knew what was going on.

[gbt71fa]

An excellent question.

Thailand advanced a great deal under Thaksin. I was very impressed with the way he handled the international financiers in 1997 (IMF) after the Asian financial meltdown. Books could be written about the genius of Thailand's leadership maneuvers during that time. The same sophisticated bankers are, ironically, now focused on other countries who offer much less resistance to banking control.

During the Tsunami in 2004, more great leadership from Thaksin.

In between all of that I've seen extraordinary advances in the Thai infrastructure.

I with he'd get elected in my part of the world.

Is he hated then because he brought this prosperity to Thailand but did not include the other parties in on it? Economically, Thailand did prosper indeed while he was in power. All the evils things that is associated with him: is he at fault or would they have been going on without him in power.

[gbt71fa]

But for the life of me I can't justify hanging the results of such a stupid decision on Taksin. He did not kill 2500 people, the police did. Yes he was an idiot for letting them have free reign.

You think the police would kill all those people without a wink and a nod from Toxin? He knew what was going on.

What proof do you have that Thaskin knew what was going on? I'm not saying he didn't, I just want facts no guessing games. Do other leaders of the world know what is going on with their police forces? Is it that centrally controlled?

[AceCafe]

Where is this article from? I need the source of the article. The newspaper it came from. It seem more of an editorial than a straight news story. I am not saying that it is not true. I remember the stories that Thailand had secret U.S. C.I.A. prisons holding muslim extremists and that turned out to be bumpkus.

Asia Times online. www.atimes.com

[GuestHouse]

An excellent question.

Thailand advanced a great deal under Thaksin. I was very impressed with the way he handled the international financiers in 1997 (IMF) after the Asian financial meltdown. Books could be written about the genius of Thailand's leadership maneuvers during that time. The same sophisticated bankers are, ironically, now focused on other countries who offer much less resistance to banking control.

During the Tsunami in 2004, more great leadership from Thaksin.

In between all of that I've seen extraordinary advances in the Thai infrastructure.

I with he'd get elected in my part of the world.

Well putting aside the fact that the restructuring of the Thai financial systems, and in particular the restructuring of the laws to allow debts and bad assets to me moved, was undertaken by the previous Chuan Leekpai administration.

[Sabum]

An idiot for letting them have free reign? HE'S WAS THE BOSS, NOTHING GETS DONE WITHOUT THE BOSS GIVING THE GO AHEAD. Guess we better start clearing Hitlers name then, I mean HE didn't pull all those triggers, HE didn't personally gas people, HE never actually killed anyone with his bare hands so his innocence is completely obvious right?! Are you making a horrible joke?

Thaksin is directly responsible for the drug murders and the muslim murders, he is a murderer. Anyone who wants to forgive the orchestrator of mass murder because his finger didn't actually pull the triggers has a problem with logic and how the universe works and needs to get some education PRONTO.

These are not rumours, if you choose to not believe the facts that all these people died under Thaksins orders then you are sticking your fingers in your ears and going "BLAH BLAH BLAH I CANT HEAR YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH" like a child. It happened. I dont care if he handed out tons of loans and money to poor people (I dont think this actually helped them) and bought the loyalty of the entire nation, he is a murderer on a large scale and that cannot be forgiven.

[dominique355]

May I suggest you read today's Bangkok Post where there is an excellent article by Bangkok Senator Khun Rosana.

Besides this, the Thaksin administration has been ousted by the military i.a. because his corruption was just a bit too much, even for Thai people. However, in almost 3 years now, we have seen only one case solved, the Rajadamri land case, where Thaksin stumbled over his own law.

Other cases under investigation or already pending at the court involves the government loan to Burma for Burma to by time form Shin Corporation, which as a pure coincidence (sic!) belongs to the Thakisn family.

I don't have to mention the tax evasion case when Thaksin boxed a new law through parliament allowing crucial industries to increase the shares held by foreigners from 20% to 49%. The next day (literally), Shin corporation sold 49.5% to Temasek Holdings for several billion Baht (I forgot the exact amount) and no tax was paid.

The average amount of debt of the Thai family doubled under the Thaksin administration (I don't have the link to prove this allegation, though), but Thaksin continues to brag that he was the PM for the poor.

I guess if you really want to know and are intellectually honest, you would have found out these fact by yourself. So your question is just rhetorical?

[gbt71fa]

An idiot for letting them have free reign? HE'S WAS THE BOSS, NOTHING GETS DONE WITHOUT THE BOSS GIVING THE GO AHEAD. Guess we better start clearing Hitlers name then, I mean HE didn't pull all those triggers, HE didn't personally gas people, HE never actually killed anyone with his bare hands so his innocence is completely obvious right?! Are you making a horrible joke?

Thaksin is directly responsible for the drug murders and the muslim murders, he is a murderer. Anyone who wants to forgive the orchestrator of mass murder because his finger didn't actually pull the triggers has a problem with logic and how the universe works and needs to get some education PRONTO.

These are not rumours, if you choose to not believe the facts that all these people died under Thaksins orders then you are sticking your fingers in your ears and going "BLAH BLAH BLAH I CANT HEAR YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH" like a child. It happened. I dont care if he handed out tons of loans and money to poor people (I dont think this actually helped them) and bought the loyalty of the entire nation, he is a murderer on a large scale and that cannot be forgiven.

You see, this is someone who gets emotional over the subject. Hitler expressely ordered those things to happen. There is documentaction, and even audio and video calling for it. When did I say I chose not to believe? You are calling a man a murderer without a fair indictment of his crimes. In most countries, that would not be taken lightly and would need proof to back up such claims. If you would like to argue my educational backgrond than I am sorry to say that you would lose rather badly on that end.

Again, the other member gave me the website so I can read the article but not the acutal link: I will look for it. Again, the was more an editorialization than a straight news story. First-hand witnesses, docements?

[GuestHouse]

Sabum is entirely correct - He was the boss and he was in charge. (and you can't have it both ways on this, he can't take credit of the good and pass off the ill).

Examples:

Suppression of freedom of the press - TV channels sued, newspapers stamped on.

His policies in the south lead to a direct increase in violence after several yeas of reductions in troubles in the region

His wide spread corruption - examples he and his family buying up large tracks of land on Kho Chang in the year before he announced it as a 'special area for tourist development'.

His placing personal business above national interests - example his personal intervention in assisting that telecoms company (he had placed out of his direct control) in acquiring rights in the Indian Telecom market.

The land deal for which he was convicted

His war on drugs which resulted in the extra-judicial killings of almost three thousand low level drug users/suppliers but not one single arrest of any of the big players.

His policy of division, pitting the rural poor against the urban middle class

.... .. .

[Sabum]

Its not our job to do YOUR research for you, the people murdered are all confirmed as MISSING FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH. You go find the appropriate documents... jesus.

[gbt71fa]

May I suggest you read today's Bangkok Post where there is an excellent article by Bangkok Senator Khun Rosana.

Besides this, the Thaksin administration has been ousted by the military i.a. because his corruption was just a bit too much, even for Thai people. However, in almost 3 years now, we have seen only one case solved, the Rajadamri land case, where Thaksin stumbled over his own law.

Other cases under investigation or already pending at the court involves the government loan to Burma for Burma to by time form Shin Corporation, which as a pure coincidence (sic!) belongs to the Thakisn family.

I don't have to mention the tax evasion case when Thaksin boxed a new law through parliament allowing crucial industries to increase the shares held by foreigners from 20% to 49%. The next day (literally), Shin corporation sold 49.5% to Temasek Holdings for several billion Baht (I forgot the exact amount) and no tax was paid.

The average amount of debt of the Thai family doubled under the Thaksin administration (I don't have the link to prove this allegation, though), but Thaksin continues to brag that he was the PM for the poor.

I guess if you really want to know and are intellectually honest, you would have found out these fact by yourself. So your question is just rhetorical?

The military through him out because of his corruption or because he had too much power as others have claimed. Debt has increased around the world for families. But I like you facts you use as far as foreign investment. That is what I'm talking about. That is what I want to see. Was it a bad thing to try to increase foreign investment? In the U.S., there is no limit on ownership percentage of a company. I will look up about the no tax paid on the Shin deal, though. As far as the loan to Burma, I don't think any country should be involved in giving them money for that archaic place. The question is not rhetorical. Time and time again posts are made here concerning his evil ways. What you said here, no other Thai PM has done anything similar to this deal. How about the deal giving the U.S.-The Thailand Treaty of Amity-allowing Americans the same rights as Thais in the owning and operting of compaies, while excluding other countries? Who was PM then? I personally love the deal because I might own a business in Thailand one day.....

[gbt71fa]

Its not our job to do YOUR research for you, the people murdered are all confirmed as MISSING FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH. You go find the appropriate documents... jesus.

Usually those who make the accusations have to show proof...at least in civilized society. Where are they confirmed murdered?

[Sabum]

For crying out loud.. lol Im not making accusations, this wasnt hidden information, everyone knows about it and people that lived here during this time heard it every day. Even the King came on national Television and berated Thaksin asking him "what will the rest of the world think of us?"

[gbt71fa]

Sabum is entirely correct - He was the boss and he was in charge. (and you can't have it both ways on this, he can't take credit of the good and pass off the ill).

Examples:

Suppression of freedom of the press - TV channels sued, newspapers stamped on.

His policies in the south lead to a direct increase in violence after several yeas of reductions in troubles in the region

His wide spread corruption - examples he and his family buying up large tracks of land on Kho Chang in the year before he announced it as a 'special area for tourist development'.

His placing personal business above national interests - example his personal intervention in assisting that telecoms company (he had placed out of his direct control) in acquiring rights in the Indian Telecom market.

The land deal for which he was convicted

His war on drugs which resulted in the extra-judicial killings of almost three thousand low level drug users/suppliers but not one single arrest of any of the big players.

His policy of division, pitting the rural poor against the urban middle class

.... .. .

He was the boss of the country and if what you say is true than he should have held the police officials responsble. If your accusations are true than Thaskin should be held accountable for not bringing those who commtted the acts to justice. When was he convicted? During his rule or after he was ousted. His policy, as you say, is a time-honored tradition it seems in Thailand. No other political party has taken part in this?

[Captain Chaos]

How about corruption? I worked for a subsidiary of a British MNC in Bangkok during Mr Thaksin's administration. Our office was close to the new airport - watched it go from a big patch of dirt to a (nearly) world class airport during my time working in the vicinity. We were a Thai company and the domestic market leader in our field, with nearly a 50% market share.

Bidding for Swampydoom projects, the procurement manager complimented us on our technical quality and pricing of our pre-qualification material - but then he asked us one question 'are you a Shincorp company?' ... when we replied in the negative, he advised us not to 'waste our time' submitting...

Funny thing is, I remember Mr T telling everyone when he was first elected (I paraphrase) - don't worry about corruption, I am already too rich to bother with it - if only...

I agree Mr T is a clever guy and handled a lot of Thailand's external financial issues well, but he just couldn't keep his hands out of the till - his real mistake of course, was throwing down the gauntlet to the establishment, and that has happened to many populist premiers in many countries...

[gbt71fa]

How about corruption? I worked for a subsidiary of a British MNC in Bangkok during Mr Thaksin's administration. Our office was close to the new airport - watched it go from a big patch of dirt to a (nearly) world class airport during my time working in the vicinity. We were a Thai company and the domestic market leader in our field, with nearly a 50% market share.

Bidding for Swampydoom projects, the procurement manager complimented us on our technical quality and pricing of our pre-qualification material - but then he asked us one question 'are you a Shincorp company?' ... when we replied in the negative, he advised us not to 'waste our time' submitting...

Funny thing is, I remember Mr T telling everyone when he was first elected (I paraphrase) - don't worry about corruption, I am already too rich to bother with it - if only...

I agree Mr T is a clever guy and handled a lot of Thailand's external financial issues well, but he just couldn't keep his hands out of the till - his real mistake of course, was throwing down the gauntlet to the establishment, and that has happened to many populist premiers in many countries...

So was his mistake that he didn't include the rest of the establishment (the military, the other parties) in on his dealings? Was it a case of the rest of the establishment not getting their cut?

[Sir Burr]

What proof do you have that Thaskin knew what was going on? I'm not saying he didn't, I just want facts no guessing games. Do other leaders of the world know what is going on with their police forces? Is it that centrally controlled?

What exactly do you consider proof?

Articles from the internet?

Or, do you need a scanned copy of orders with his signature and thumb-print?

Your request is totally unreasonable.

[gbt71fa]

For crying out loud.. lol Im not making accusations, this wasnt hidden information, everyone knows about it and people that lived here during this time heard it every day. Even the King came on national Television and berated Thaksin asking him "what will the rest of the world think of us?"

Then why wasn't he LEGALLY dealth with. Impeachment. Charges brought up to accuse of him action unbecoming someone of his office. Why weren't the legal avenues followed? Why did they wait until he was outside the country to overthrow him. Did the army act in defense of the King's statement. Is this a case of the Royallists vs. the Republicans, per say? Heard what every day?