Dual Nationality Kids

[leprechaun]

Hi all.

My 6 month old son was born here in Thailand and possesses both a Thai and British passport. I'm taking my family back to the UK mid March and was wondering what passport to exit Thailand on and what passport to enter the UK on.

I was going to use the Thai passport for my son to leave Thailand on and the British passport to enter the UK on. Is this normal practice?

The reason for this is so that the Thai authorities don't ask too many questions at passport control regarding reasons why my son does not have an entry stamp in his British passport (he was born in BKK)

We will be traveling with relevant birth certificates but don't really wish to complicate matters more than necessary.

Leprechaun

[samran]

What you have suggested is very normal practice leprechaun.

The main thing to remember is to show BOTH passports to the airline check in people. It tells them that your child has the right to enter the UK at the final destination. Without being assured that a passanger has the right to enter the destination country, the airline will refuse to board them.

Do a search on this topic with-in this site. I have answered alot of questions on this topic.

Cheers Samran

ps. Congrats on the new bubs!

Edited January 27, 2005 by samran

[p_brownstone]

Hi all.

My 6 month old son was born here in Thailand and possesses both a Thai and British passport. I'm taking my family back to the UK mid March and was wondering what passport to exit Thailand on and what passport to enter the UK on.

I was going to use the Thai passport for my son to leave Thailand on and the British passport to enter the UK on. Is this normal practice?

The reason for this is so that the Thai authorities don't ask too many questions at passport control regarding reasons why my son does not have an entry stamp in his British passport (he was born in BKK)

We will be traveling with relevant birth certificates but don't really wish to complicate matters more than necessary. 

Leprechaun

Just to add a little to Samrans' Post.

You will also have to show both Passports at the Boarding Gate, again to show Airline staff there that your son has the right to enter U.K..

At Immigration exiting Thailand however just show the Thai Passport - do NOT show both - there is absolutely nothing illegal in holding two Passports but some Immigration Officers do not know this and could make a fuss.

Patrick

[srisatch]

Only just saw this!

You must have the child's Thai Birth Certificate to show at Passport Control when leaving BKK. Then child can exit on UK Passport.

When you come back to LOS child comes ex UK and in on Thai Passport

They are not too fussed when the child is small, however later -eg. child 8+ you will have to get a UK Right of Abode Stamp in the child's Thai Passport. Do this in the UK from Liverpool, where it costs £20. If you do in BKK it is MUCH more expensive and the forms are not the same.

[samran]

My advice always is that if you are a citizen of thailand, you should always enter and leave that country on a Thai PP.

[p_brownstone]

Only just saw this!

You must have the child's Thai Birth Certificate to show at Passport Control when leaving BKK. Then child can exit on UK Passport.

When you come back to LOS child comes ex UK and  in on Thai Passport

They are not too fussed when the child is small, however later -eg. child 8+ you will have to get a UK Right of Abode Stamp in the child's Thai Passport. Do this in the UK from Liverpool, where it costs £20. If you do in BKK it is MUCH more expensive and the forms are not the same.

Non of this applies if the child has two valid Passports.

If the child has both a Thai Passport and a British one there is absolutely no need to show any documents at the Thai Airport except the Passports. Both the Thai and British ones at Airline Check-in in Thailand and at Boarding, the Thai one only at Immigration leaving Thailand. Entering and exiting the U.K. show only the British Passport, entering Thailand show only the Thai one.

Nor do you need a “Right of Abode” sticker in the Thai Passport – this is automatically a right if the holder also has a British Passport.

Patrick

[Tattytam]

I took my son to England a year or so ago, and used his Thai passport to leave Thailand and his British to enter etc. with no problems, everyone wanted to see both passports, including immigration at all points, but no-one complained.

However I recently went to Malaysia and intended to exit and enter with his Thai passport. However they refused to accept it at immigration as it had been chewed by bugs - not the ID pages I may say. Anyway to cut a long story short I ended up using his British passport and the immigration official there said I should not use two passports, because it means that the passport has an exit stamp but not a stamp to show him going anywhere else!

Oh and also now my son's British passport has a one-month visa stamp!! Not sure what to do about that? Any ideas?

[samran]

Problem with Malaysia is their laws actually don't recognise the concept of dual nationality at all, going there can be complicated.

If your son now has a one month Thai entry stamp in his british passport, I think the only option is for you do a visa run with him at some stage. If he is under 7 years old, there is no problem with being an overstayer - he can stay as long as he wants without penalty, but next time you fly somewhere, exit Thailand on the UK passport, and then re-enter on the Thai PP when you fly back.

[srisatch]

Only just saw this!

You must have the child's Thai Birth Certificate to show at Passport Control when leaving BKK. Then child can exit on UK Passport.

When you come back to LOS child comes ex UK and  in on Thai Passport

They are not too fussed when the child is small, however later -eg. child 8+ you will have to get a UK Right of Abode Stamp in the child's Thai Passport. Do this in the UK from Liverpool, where it costs £20. If you do in BKK it is MUCH more expensive and the forms are not the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Non of this applies if the child has two valid Passports.

If the child has both a Thai Passport and a British one there is absolutely no need to show any documents at the Thai Airport except the Passports. Both the Thai and British ones at Airline Check-in in Thailand and at Boarding, the Thai one only at Immigration leaving Thailand. Entering and exiting the U.K. show only the British Passport, entering Thailand show only the Thai one.

Nor do you need a “Right of Abode” sticker in the Thai Passport – this is automatically a right if the holder also has a British Passport.

Patrick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you are simply wrong..and who would take the risk? I was told quite unequivocally that the Thai Birth Certificate was required and it was asked the first thing asked for in addition to the two passports. No-one was interested in the Thai Passport exiting BKK only the Birth Certificate the details of which were written into the UK Passport. How can a child leave for the UK on a Thai Passport without a UK Visa!!?Not difficult to take the Cert to be sure....?.

I think you are also wrong about right of abode. As I said when the child is small no-one cares....however later it is NOT the same.

Of course being where we are you may be 'forunate' or 'unfortunate' with whom you meet!

[p_brownstone]

Only just saw this!

You must have the child's Thai Birth Certificate to show at Passport Control when leaving BKK. Then child can exit on UK Passport.

When you come back to LOS child comes ex UK and  in on Thai Passport

They are not too fussed when the child is small, however later -eg. child 8+ you will have to get a UK Right of Abode Stamp in the child's Thai Passport. Do this in the UK from Liverpool, where it costs £20. If you do in BKK it is MUCH more expensive and the forms are not the same.

Non of this applies if the child has two valid Passports.

If the child has both a Thai Passport and a British one there is absolutely no need to show any documents at the Thai Airport except the Passports. Both the Thai and British ones at Airline Check-in in Thailand and at Boarding, the Thai one only at Immigration leaving Thailand. Entering and exiting the U.K. show only the British Passport, entering Thailand show only the Thai one.

Nor do you need a “Right of Abode” sticker in the Thai Passport – this is automatically a right if the holder also has a British Passport.

Patrick

I think you are simply wrong..and who would take the risk? I was told quite unequivocally that the Thai Birth Certificate was required and it was asked the first thing asked for in addition to the two passports. No-one was interested in the Thai Passport exiting BKK only the Birth Certificate the details of which were written into the UK Passport. How can a child leave for the UK on a Thai Passport without a UK Visa!!?Not difficult to take the Cert to be sure....?.

I think you are also wrong about right of abode. As I said when the child is small no-one cares....however later it is NOT the same.

Of course being where we are you may be 'forunate' or 'unfortunate' with whom you meet!

Perhaps you have some unique circumstances of which I am not aware.

All I can assert is from my own long experience with a Daughter born in Thailand - 22 years ago - who has lived here permanently, overseas holidays etc. excepted.

Mother is Thai, I am British.

My daughter has had British and Thai Passports since she was just over 4 months old - we have travelled extensively in and out of Thailand since then (and she has travelled alone many times too). We have never been asked for any documents apart from the two Passports - to be presented as detailed in my earlier Post, nor does she have a UK "Right of Abode" Sticker in her Thai Passport.

Leaving Thailand, only the Airline wants to see evidence that the passenger has the right to enter the destination Country - whiich is why you need to present either a Thai Passport with a valid Visa OR both Passports at Check in and at Boarding. Immigration, leaving Thailand, has no interest in where you are going or whether or not you have a Visa / right of entry, all they look for is that your entry and stay in, and departure from,Thailand was in conformity with Thai regulations.

If the child / teenager / adult has both Thai and British Passports no other documents are needed and there is absolutely no "risk" involved at all.

Literally thousands of Thai's have two Passports and I am sure this "Passport Shuffle" occurs dozens of times a day at Don Muang - absolutely nothing in any way illegal or risky believe me.

Patrick

[samran]

How can a child leave for the UK on a Thai Passport without a UK Visa!!?Not difficult to take the Cert to be sure....?.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A child should be able to leave for the UK if they have a UK passport. That confirms to both the airline and UK immigration that the child has the unfettered right to enter the UK.

I think the issue here is that some people like that extra 'security' of the right of abode sticker in the Thai PP, even though holding a British Passport is the 'ultimate' evidence of right of abode in any case.

I tend to agree with Patrick on this one, the right of abode sticker is really not needed and probably a waste of 7000 odd baht.

As Thai dual national myself, I have never ever had a problem boarding an aircraft at Don Muang using the method that Patrick (p_brownstone) describes. But at the end of the day, each to their own I guess!

Edited February 7, 2005 by samran

[NiceFarang]

Patrick is absolutely correct.

Providing the child has 2 passports

as far as passport/immigration control is concerned

you only need to use Thai passport to leave and enter Thailand.

As for when you enter other countries it is up to you which passport is most suitable to use.

Obviously for UK you use the British passport to enter and leave.

However as Patrick says the airline normally requires to see both passports depending on what countries one is leaving and going to).

As the airlines cop a big fine if you do not have valid docs to enter a country.

For instance when we go to UK the airline check in person in BKK requires to see the british passport as well as the child does not have a british visa in the Thai passport.

Srisatch is wrong providing the child has the 2 valid passports. (unless perhaps the child is entered on their parents passport as I believe sometimes can happen or usedc to happen- in this instance things could be different)

[GU22]

Agree, use Thai passport to enter and leave Thailand, use British passport to enter and leave the UK, show both to the Airline to show you have the right to enter the country you are travelling to.

My wife and daughter both have dual Thai/British nationality and we have done this many times without any problems.

If you have British citizenship, this entitles you to enter and reside in the UK, regardless of whether you have dual nationality. So you do not need a Right of Abode sticker in your Thai passport, the British passport is sufficient.

[srisatch]

Patrick is absolutely correct.

Providing the child has 2 passports

as far as passport/immigration control is concerned

you only need to use Thai passport to leave and enter Thailand.

As for when you enter other countries it is up to you which passport is most suitable to use.

Obviously for UK you use the British passport to enter and leave.

However as Patrick says the airline normally requires to see both passports depending on what countries one is leaving and going to).

As the airlines cop a big fine if you do not have valid docs to enter a country.

For instance when we go to UK the airline check in person in BKK requires to see the british passport as well as the child does not have a british visa in the Thai passport.

Srisatch is wrong providing the child has the 2 valid passports. (unless perhaps the child is entered on their parents passport as I believe sometimes can happen or usedc to happen- in this instance things could be different)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now the child Must have own Passport...

Obviously I am happy that people have been able to do what they have done!!

So can someone explain to me why my younger daughter...10 months ago ..could not leave on either her Thai or UK passport for the UK without her Thai Birth Certificate...lucky I had it...it was the first time she was exiting LOS,,,we hardly look, at our advanced and juvenile ages, like hippies or other loonies that might cause Immigration a heart attack!!!! But they were adamant.....its only exiting LOS..as you know if you wave British Passport at Heathrow that is all...and exiting LHR all the airline wants to know is if you have Thai Passport or Visa...though I have had trouble with Thai Airways with One Way tickets to Thailand and 60 day Tourist Visas.....

[samran]

I don't think that birth certificate is an immigration requirement per se.

My best guess for the need of a birth certificate is to make sure that the baby is travelling with its legal parents. I seem to remember reading somewhere on this site at some stage that thai immigration to this to prevent babies kidnapped out of the country. So the birth certificat was essentially to ensure that you were the parents of the child.

[GU22]

Spot on, Samran.

Nothing to do with immigration, but a measure to prevent baby smuggling.

[manfromoz]

Just out of curiuosity, do you, your wife and child all have the same surname? This maybe why they asked for the birth certificate. I have just (2 days ago) left Thailand and there was no questions asked about birth certificates.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Spot on, Samran.

Nothing to do with immigration, but a measure to prevent baby smuggling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Immigration people are more demanding on exit if the child was born in Thailand.

[JimGant]

Leaving Thailand, only the Airline wants to see evidence that the passenger has the right to enter the destination Country - whiich is why you need to present either a Thai Passport with a valid Visa OR both Passports at Check in and at Boarding

Just curious, but why would you even need to show your Thai passport to the airlines when your UK passport is all that's needed to assure them of your legality to enter Britain? Is this because the agent checks to see if there's a 'departure card' stapled to your UK passport (which in this case, it wouldn't be)? I always thought the airline agent was only concerned about your right to enter the destination country, not whether or not Thai Immigration would have any problems with your papers?

But I could see where a sharp agent would be curious about why your UK passport didn't have the expected immigration stamps in it -- just as Thai Immigration might wonder why your Thai passport indicates you've left and entered Thailand many times -- but haven't gone anywhere. In both situations, obviously, you'd have your 'other' passport ready to be shown. But just showing one passport in all situations would seem prudent, if at all possible, in case you encounter an agent or Immigration Officer who hasn't the foggiest notion about dual nationality.....

[srisatch]

Spot on, Samran.

Nothing to do with immigration, but a measure to prevent baby smuggling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Immigration people are more demanding on exit if the child was born in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All that sounds right and good cautionary advice

The child, born in Thailand, and I have the same surname in both UK and Thai Passports. Wife was exiting down the Thai channel and no-one interested in her!..though you are right..her Thai Passport is in her Thai name

....They wrote the details of her birth certificate into the UK Passport...

Looks to me like another of these things where neither UK nor Thai can actually explain in detail and clearly for diffrent circumstances

I asked the UK embassy about all this...they, too, were sure, at first, the child needed Right to Remain sticker in Thai Passport...then changed their mind hearing child was 3 years old..Wife phoned Thai Foriegn Office who assured her no need for RtR sticker if child has UK passport!! etc.

Still think it is worth getting RtR sticker, from Liverpool, if you are in UK..only £20...here the UK embassy wants B6000+ because it is a 'different form'!!

[GU22]

It does appear to be a random check.

Before we were married the wife and I went to the Philippines for a holiday. On going through passport control at Don Muang we were taken to one side and details of our passports were recorded. The explanation given was that sometimes Farangs take Thai girls abroad and then sell them into prostitution. It was made clear to me that I would be in big trouble if I returned to Thailand without her!

[manfromoz]

Why didn't you and your wife exit together? I would suggest that the absence of her and also the different name inher Thai passport is the reason they asked for the birth certificate. My wife has taken my name and we all exited together with no problems at all. the Thai immmigration wanted to play with the baby mor ethan serve the next traveller.

As for why do the airlines look at the Thia passport, yes it is to check and see if an exit card has been filled in. As your child is leaving on a Thai passport, you are required to fill in a TM card for the child and your wife.

[slimdog]

Both of my children are dual nationality kids (Thai-English). A few years ago when we were looking into getting Right of Abode certificates for the kids I telephoned the Liverpool office and asked if I could get the certificates put into their Thai passports when we came over for a holiday.At the time I was advised NOT to do this in the U.K. The reasons were:

1. Getting a right of abode certificate in the home country (Thailand) would be a simple procedure allbeit more expensive providing the kids had valid U.K. passports (which they did).

2. Getting a right of abode certificate in the U.K whilst cheaper would raise many questions, namely

If the childs Thai passport had a tourist visa in it, it would be questioned as to why a tourist was wanting permanent right of abode in the U.K

If the child entered on a British passport, it would be questioned why the Thai Passport which was presented for the certificate had no immigration status

If the mother was going to be in the U.K with the kids (which she was), it would be questioned as to whether she was trying to remain in the U.K. based on the childrens right of abode.

The officer I spoke to was very good, and understood exactly what I was doing and why (Saving money..) but advised against getting the certificates in the U.K.

In the end I got them done in Bangkok, and as I was told, it was a simple formality.

[p_brownstone]

Both of my children are dual nationality kids (Thai-English). A few years ago when we were looking into getting Right of Abode certificates for the kids .............  <snip>

Am I missing something fundamental?

Why would anyone holding a British Passport want or need a "Right of Abode" sticker in their Thai Passport??

Unless I am WAY off base here, any holder of a full, valid, British Passport has automatic Right of Abode in the United Kingdom.

Can anyone specify a set of circumstances where this is not the case?

Patrick

[slimdog]

You are 100% correct, having both a valid British Passport and a Right of abode certificate is unneccessary. However,in order to get a Right of Abode certificate, a valid British passport is required as proof of this right.

The reason we decided on getting the certificates were:

1. We don't have to keep getting two sets of passports every 5 years for each child.

2. Should laws change where dual nationality kids can no longer have 2 passports, or travel regulations change, then we/they have some options.

[p_brownstone]

You are 100% correct, having both a valid British Passport and a Right of abode certificate is unneccessary. However,in order to get a Right of Abode certificate, a valid British passport is required as proof of this right.

Ouch - I know it's Friday and I am slowing down for the weekend but this is something from the Queen in Alice Though the Looking Glass!

"If you have "A" then you don't need "B" however if you REALLY want "B" then you must have "A" first."

Or maybe Monty Python?

That said, I take your point about perhaps not wanting to spend (what, Baht 4,000.-?) every 5 years (initially anyway, until the child qualifies for a 10 year Passport) on a British Passport.

HOWEVER

Bear in mind that a UK "Right of Abode" sticker in a Thai Passport is in no way comparable to actually holding a British Passport.

For example - although I am open to correction on this point - I do not believe that a Thai Passport holder with the above "Sticker" has a right to enter any European Country without a specific Visa - or the United States under the Visa Waiver programme.

A full UK / EU Pasport automatically coveys this right.

(And, by the way, so many Thais' , at VERY high level, hold two Passports that there is literally no chance Thailand will suddenly decree Dual Thai / Other Nationality is not recognised!)

Patrick

Edited February 18, 2005 by p_brownstone

[the scouser]

For example - although I am open to correction on this point - I do not believe that a Thai Passport holder with the above "Sticker" has a right to enter any European Country without a specific Visa - or the United States under the Visa Waiver programme.

A full UK / EU Pasport automatically coveys this right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's correct. Also, qualifying for the right of abode vignette is not dependent upon having a British passport. Providing that the applicant can prove their entitlement, for example through a parent's birth certificate, marriage certificate and the applicant's own, then this is sufficient to establish the claim.

Scouse.

[slimdog]

Quote

"If you have "A" then you don't need "B" however if you REALLY want "B" then you must have "A" first."

This may sound silly to you (It certainly did to me when the British Embassy informed me), however the Actual reading should be:

"If you have "A" then you don't need "B" however if you REALLY want "B" then you must have EITHER "A" or "B" first."

From Embassy website:

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/F...d=1065721630832

How do I prove that I have the right of abode?

You must produce either:

a United Kingdom passport describing you as a British citizen or as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies who has the right of abode,

or

a certificate of entitlement showing that you have the right of abode

[the scouser]

How do I prove that I have the right of abode?

You must produce either:

a United Kingdom passport describing you as a British citizen or as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies who has the right of abode,

or

a certificate of entitlement showing that you have the right of abode

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And how do you qualify for a cert. of entitlement? By producing either a Britsh passport or other evidence that you are British; e.g. relevant birth/marriage certificates. It is possible to obtain a cert. of entitlement without having ever held a British passport.

The relevant embassy link.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[amnat66]

Have just discovered this thread and from the above I understand that my wife with both British and Thai passports can travel with both - however what other documents would she need to present if the Thai passport is in her Thai name and the British is in her married name? Is this a case of changing the name in her Thai passport? Which name should we book her airticket in to make life easy at Don Muang? Any advice would be much appreciated!