From: At Least 77 Injured In Bangkok Clashes

[hansnl]

The army has not learned it lessons. You cannot win an uprising. Neither in the South, neither in Bangkok, neither in the North or North East. The army is big and slow, therefore the protestors can move quickly and strike wherever they want. if they want to disrupt the daily live they can do so. The army clear one crossing they take 4 crossings, when the army moves in, they move out, regroup and take new targets, huge armies have lost that way. There is not other solution than striking a deal which is acceptable for each and everyone.

Maybe you should consider this:

Any army can win from rabble, as long as the army has nothing to stop it; be it politics, press, or whatever.

The only way that army can be hindered or stopped is by politics, press or whatever.

And read for the whatever any moral, economical, suitable topic.

Edited April 13, 2009 by hansnl

[hansnl]

I personally beleve a democracy works only in a high educated country, like in Europe US or Australia, etc. In third world countries is better to be in dictatorship, because peaple aren't educated enought to understand politics and economics.

Would that be like the "highly educated" people in the west, the cream of the crop having taken up jobs in the financial sector over the past 20 years? Would that be like the democracy that allowed for 25 highly educated and extremely welathy hedge fund managers to pay off a certain Sen. Schumer from New York to insure that a certain glaring US tax loophole that affected only those 25 plus a few more was not closed? Or to keep it more regional and put it into some historical perspective, would that be like the "best and the brightest" back in the early 1960s who brought us the war in Vietnam?

So excuse me if I fail to see a connection between education and democracy. What I see amongst the former PPP supporters, the redshirts, are some poor people who were given a few crumbs in exchange for their votes, a prominent feature of democracy, who are now facing an opposing faction that advocates taking away their votes and their few crumbs. What I see in Thailand is a group of what you call "educated people" who don't understand politics and democracy as well as the uneducated poor do, and whose only understanding of economics is just like those highly educated folks in the west, limited to the economics of me-me-me.

So Stingray, step right up and don a yellow shirt and raise your right arm to Sondhi.

Shame on you for attaching the rising of the right arm to Sondhi.

And for the rest I think you live with your ideas in Atlantis.

[cmsally]

I personally beleve a democracy works only in a high educated country, like in Europe US or Australia, etc. In third world countries is better to be in dictatorship, because peaple aren't educated enought to understand politics and economics.

Would that be like the "highly educated" people in the west, the cream of the crop having taken up jobs in the financial sector over the past 20 years? Would that be like the democracy that allowed for 25 highly educated and extremely welathy hedge fund managers to pay off a certain Sen. Schumer from New York to insure that a certain glaring US tax loophole that affected only those 25 plus a few more was not closed? Or to keep it more regional and put it into some historical perspective, would that be like the "best and the brightest" back in the early 1960s who brought us the war in Vietnam?

So excuse me if I fail to see a connection between education and democracy. What I see amongst the former PPP supporters, the redshirts, are some poor people who were given a few crumbs in exchange for their votes, a prominent feature of democracy, who are now facing an opposing faction that advocates taking away their votes and their few crumbs. What I see in Thailand is a group of what you call "educated people" who don't understand politics and democracy as well as the uneducated poor do, and whose only understanding of economics is just like those highly educated folks in the west, limited to the economics of me-me-me.

So Stingray, step right up and don a yellow shirt and raise your right arm to Sondhi.

Well said!

It also happens to be the case that the people dictating to the minions are often themselves neither highly educated nor intelligent. An intelligent dictator is rather an oxymoron, unless they happen to have a huge lust for power overriding any other qualities.

[Richard W]

I think it's quite normal for leaders not to put their butts on the line in a conflict. I haven't seen Abhisit out on the streets with the soldiers he's asked to fight.

His arm's reported to have been hurt when his car was attacked. Is that frontline enough for you? In his case, covering fire was not available.

[noahvail]

There is not mistake on Al Jazeeras pictures. Soldiers fireing directly ahead, not in the air. Thats what happen when you give soldiers live ammunition. Even if ordered to fire in the air, SOME will fire at targets if stressed enough.

Also works extremely well with blanks. Will certainly get the desired reaction. RUN AWAY

Agreed. Blanks sound the same, and if you're looking at a couple of dozen guys aiming at you in the crowd, the fight or flight syndrome kicks in, and the best response is to...run away. Agreed.

[jantrevor]

There is an inconsistent response on this forum between comments on the yellow "uprising" and the "red revolt". The army did nothing when the yellows occupied the government buildings and the airports. The yellows are a minority representing the rich in Bangkok. Where is the democracy? Thaksin did nothing that the others had done before him, and will do again and again, political corruption is a way of life in Thailand.

[Richard W]

Sorry, I don't understand. ...

(2) skin is soft and elastic, so it would only deccelerate quickly if the force is low enough that the skin can resist it - if it was more forceful it would penetrate and thus not slow quickly. However the force would not be enough to break good skin, if it hit a collorbone or forehead perhaps it would compress the skin and cause a bruise. Surely, the damage would mostly be experienced by the bullet (like shooting a block of iron), so it is possible that the bullet could break a little and shrapnel could penetrate as the surface area is much smaller.

(3) this would only be the case for penetration, otherwise, the elasticity of the skin would push back against the bullet and maybe sent the bullet a few feet away.

Try calculating the forces involved to prevent a bullet travelling with a terminal speed of 100m/s from penetrating more than one inch. You could try both constant deceleration (v²=u²+2as) and Hooke's law (SHM). It's more complicated than this because bullets don't significantly ricochet off flesh - the process is distinctly inelastic. For metal skins damage thresholds are normally calculated as energy per root area. I'll leave you to do further research on the material constants - conjuring them out of thin air was one of my weaknesses in physics.

[Jersey Jim]

It would appear to me that many people are missing the point about these red shirt protestors they are being played by Taksin who wants any government that is in power overthrown if they are not going to grant him an amnesty and allow him to return to Thailand so that he can release the multi millions of baht that are frozen plus all his other assets when this is achieved he will be off into the great blue yonder never to be heard of again then maybe we will have a democratic election and government to follow.

[rfhendrix]

Good leaders are loved and feared, and it's a little to late for the first one. Crack some skulls Abhisit or this will just be a continuous cycle of political madness and economic instability. By any means necessary especially during times of a world recession there's gotta be a leader that grabs the reins of the country and blatantly states "Don't <deleted> with me."

I wonder how many protesters would hang around if Thaksin stopped paying them? They want immediate change but it takes some time to see the changes from a newly implimented gov't they gave Abhisit what? Three measley months if that. They're now hijacking LPG tankers and opening the valves to release the contents and in effect evacuating entire neighborhoods, do they realize how volitile LPG is? Probably not. These are the same idiots that will drape you over their shoulder and jump up and down in an attempt to save you if your drowning.Go home red's and get an education.

This is just the point! They would love a chance of a good education just like those wealthy in Bangkok. We had to take our daughter out of school in the village, educate her overseas so she is now fluent in English. She now studies in Bangkok.

Why could she not have had this where she lives? Because the wealthy Bangkokians do not want this. My wife has had to put up with being poor lower class all her life and Essan people only want the things that you wish for in your country of origin. Is this so wrong?

This is not just about Thaksin, sure he is using the poor for his own aims. But the poor know how to use people too!

Some of your comments are dangerous and the reason normally good natured people are so angry.

People in the North of Thailand are people too!

Thanks for your post. The poor "despised" people are the backbone of Thailand and they have far more "education" from the land and hard work than the so called educated ones who think they have the proper education to oppress these people. It is true that these poor people are mostly not involved in the protests, they are too busy supporting their families and working like dogs in the fields. Meanwhile many of the posters here who claim to be enlightened liberals fighting truth and justice from their laptop computer (while keeping one window open to the exchange rates and their stock portfolio) add more to their grief by siding with their oppressors! The majority like Thaksin because he actually helped them. That is certainly more than the ruling elites supported here will do.

On another note, my wife's aunt works failry high up as a government beauracrat. She did not particularly like Thaksin because she said that Thaksin actually made her to work and provide accountability to the taxpayers for her time. She admits that she lked the lazy life she led before Thaksin was elected. She also admits now that he did the right thing in forcing the beauracrats to work for their pay. Kind of makes you wonder what was really behind the ousting of Thaksin doesn't it?

[stingray]

Please, please Thialand, come to your senses. Your country has given us a second home over many years. We love your country and your people and all that you stand for, but now you are turning us farangs away. I hope and pray that there will be a peaceful resolution.

It isn't a home. It's a long term holiday or temporary living. As long as you are not citizen in a foreign country, it will NEVER your second home. Therefore don't make ties. I just woke up and "canceled" the house i want to buy. Lost my deposit, but who cares. As a foreigner overhere, be ready to move anytime, if it's necessary.

[MrMunkey]

I just think that Thailand and the Protestors (THE RED SHIRTS ESPECIALLY)are going to hurt no one but the People Of Bangkok and the people of Thailand! Some one posted earlier that you can Protest PEACEFULLY & I TOTALLY AGREE! I want to move there but have resisted due to the UNSTABLE GOVERNMENT & THE UNSTABLE SITUATIONS THERE! Its sad that ONE GROUP has to ruin it for everyone! This will DESTROY THAILAND in the long run and that is a Crying Shame

[stingray]

I am losing track of all the threads nd where to put what.

Thaksin has just been interviewed on the BBC News. The newswoman tried to give him a hard time and his body language spoke volumes. Having been asked direct questions, Thaksin has just stated on live news.

He wants the fighting to stop

The reason for aggression is only because the soldiers are firing live bullets into the crowd.

There have been many many deaths of innocent Thai people

He says all the red shirts are protesting for is a true democracy

If the soldiers had not started firing there would be no trouble

The protesters are not armed, they may have sticks and stones

He is loyal to the king

He did not ask for revolution

He does not direct the red shirts what to do, he just gives them moral support

Under no circumstances is he giving them any money

The red shirts are there because they want to be, nobody is getting paid

All the media has been closed down and the truth is not getting out of Thailand, the people are being oppressed by a military government

He will be coming back

Well frankly I don't know how he has the neck. The BBC reporter saw straight through him. He is a complete utter lying bar steward. Where will it all end?

So i really wonder, who payd our workers over 1'000 Baht per day do help the red shirts, as they told me?

Edited April 13, 2009 by stingray

[spode]

About the bullets fired in the air coming down and killing...If I remember my A Level Physics, F=MA (Force = Mass * Acceleartion).

As acceleartion is gravity, that's about 10m/s/s. What's the mass of a spent bullet (remember its only the lead bit at the end - at worse stell jacketed) - 8g perhaps (that's 9mm at about 100-150 grains). So the maxmum force would be something like 0.8 Newtons.

If it hits point down (which is unlikely as it would be spinning and tumbling) the diameter is 9mm, so the area is about 64mm2.

This all works out to a little under 0.1777875 PSI - it takes at least 1 PSI to break skin, so its doubtful it could realy cause any damage at all.

Feel free to correct my physics - its been a while (like 20 years ).

...

Actually your physics is incomplete, sorry. The relevant factors would be:

1) The pressure of the bullet (force per unit area). a relatively small force exerted over a small area can do considerable damage.

2) The impulse (change of momentum). When fast-moving objects are brought to rest in a very short time this can also result in great damage.

3) The work (the average force through a distance) required to slow the bullet. The body is responsible for the work involved in decreasing the kinetic energy of the bullet. If this occurs over a short distance the forces can be quite large.

4) You may also remember that in absence of any air resistance a projectile will have the same speed striking the ground as it does when it leaves the muzzle of the gun. Actually it would strike the ground at a slightly higher speed due to the difference in heights of the muzzle and the ground. Of course air resistance cannot be neglected in the case of a bullet, but there it is.

A couple years ago in Macau, a policeman fired five rounds from his pistol in the air, caught on tape. It was later confirmed that one of the bullets struck and injured a passing motorcyclist as it came down.

Sources:

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=4&art_id=44569&sid=13625169&con_type=1&d_str=20070516&fc=4

"The 50-year-old motorcyclist, who was about 300 meters away from the scene at the time, was struck by a bullet from a .38-caliber revolver, which is used by Macau police. A bullet fragment was removed from his chest."

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSHKG98326

-Spode

p.s. Sorry - I don't know how to make those URLs show up better.

Edited April 13, 2009 by spode

[OILMAN13]

just get on with it, use some tactical tank or artillery delivered NUCLEAR WEAPONS and put a stop to it once and for all. Same thing needs to be done on Taksins latitude and longitude, NOW before All of Thailand is ruined. Bankgkok sucks anyway.

[brahmburgers]

So, what's the solution?

I can suggest a solution, but Rainman won't like it, because it won't fit with his propensity to try and support the Red Shirt thugs, no matter what. The solution: Red Shirts go back to their homes, shops, farms, and study up on what democracy really is. When the next round of elections come in to view, they can campaign and canvas mightily, and try to get their chosen candidate(s) elected.

However, dropping big sack of snakes on the massing crowds of protestors could possibly do the trick..... Thai folk hate them, Just the sight of a snake and they're off!!. They're scared sh1tless of them. A stratigicly dropped sack of snakes onto any crowd of thai protesters would see them scatter in all directions pronto.. May cause mayhem but i rekon it might do the trick. Streets cleared peacefully, job done...

The Thais I know will somehow catch and/or kill the snakes and take them down to the nearest Chinese restaurant, and get however many baht they can for them. How about getting a soothsayer to tell the protesters that ghosts will come to haunt them if they continue to cause mayhem. That might work.

I bet the current administration sorely wishes they had blocked Thaksin's call in's way back when. As it stands, Thaksin is prime candidate to get tried, in absentia, for treason.

As for revoking his Thai passport; that will cause only a slight embarassment for him. as he can readily get any number of passports from other places. Thai foreign ministry should revoke passports of all Thaksin's family members though, as they're all party to his anti-Thailand antics.

[Oberkommando]

When the next round of elections come in to view, they can campaign and canvas mightily, and try to get their chosen candidate(s) elected.

Sounds great. So what happens when there's another coup, or the military appointed judiciary remove those elected MPs for whatever reason they can; hosting a cooking show or buying votes for example, or the other paramilitary mob that wears yellow takes over the airports again because they didn't like the results?

Back to square one?

Edited April 13, 2009 by Oberkommando

[Freddie_fly]

About the bullets fired in the air coming down and killing...If I

Actually your physics is incomplete, sorry. The relevant factors would be:

1) The pressure of the bullet (force per unit area). a relatively small force exerted over a small area can do considerable damage.

2) The impulse (change of momentum). When fast-moving objects are brought to rest in a very short time this can also result in great damage.

3) The work (the average force through a distance) required to slow the bullet. The body is responsible for the work involved in decreasing the kinetic energy of the bullet. If this occurs over a short distance the forces can be quite large.

4) You may also remember that in absence of any air resistance a projectile will have the same speed striking the ground as it does when it leaves the muzzle of the gun. Actually it would strike the ground at a slightly higher speed due to the difference in heights of the muzzle and the ground. Of course air resistance cannot be neglected in the case of a bullet, but there it is.

There seems to be something wrong with your physics too, or maybe your detachment from reality.

for point number 4, How can there be an absence of air resistance??, do thai army bullets magically enter a vacuum when fired??. All objects are subject to the laws of gravity. If you fire a bullet straight up at some point it will have zero velocity, agreed ??, then the bullet will be affected by the laws of gravity and begin a downward path, at some point if it has attained sufficient altitude it will encounter air resistance which negates any more gravitational force, agreed??, otherwise known as terminal velocity. Thus we can deduce the force exerted by the object by knowing its mass and velocity. In most cases this may cause injury but not death. The final portion of a bullet is actually rather small, unless you are firing a barrett or a Vychlop. Actually in tests it is probably a smaller projectile that would have sufficient energy to cause serious injury or death, but only if it struck a vulnerable area. A small diameter bullet travelling at around 124 FPS has the momentum to perforate the skin, it is however likely to be travelling at between 270-300 FPS, So it could cause a fatal injury, however, The fact that 'thousands' of rounds are fired into the air and there are only a few reports of injuries and even more scarce reports of deaths would suggest that it isnt actually a very dangerous practice.

sources, Major General Julian S. Hatcher, B. N. Mattoo (Journal of Forensic Sciences, 1984)

regards

Freddie

[FarangCravings]

In this day and age there are many very powerful nonlethal forms of crowd dispersion such as sound and heat producing weapons that can clear a crowd in minutes. With Thailand's propensity to have mobs gather I can't understand why they don't invest in such tools? They could have brought such a weapon to the ASEAN Summit and had that crowd hottailing back to their normal routine in Issan like getting drunk on a porch somewhere and knocking up the local girls, or racking up a big gambling debt and robbing their neighbors. Rather than disgracing Thailand, worsening the economy and thus having repercussions that worse the lot for everyone.

Well you sound like a right eliteist , yes put the poor people back in there villages and let them get drunk and bang up the local girls and let the rich minority continue to rule the country like they have for centuries

Democracy means listen and do what the majority wants and the majority in this country is the poor people

when the yellows realize that maybe the country can move forward

Edited April 13, 2009 by FarangCravings

[chowder]

it shoot blank people, make allot of sound, but it's blank.

[way2muchcoffee]

Freddie - please read the last sentence of my post. I believe I clearly stated that air resistance could not be neglected. Moreover, there would be a zero velocity of the bullet only if it was fired vertically. There is only one true vertical and an infinite number of non-vertical trajectories. But hey, what do I know. I simply provided the basic physics. A couple of other posters after me provided a somewhat more detailed physics of ballistics and weapons. The poiny isn't important enough to rush out and do the research on this particular topic....

Let's just be glad that there wasn't a slaughter, whatever it was the military was using.

Edited April 13, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[Oberkommando]

It would appear to me that many people are missing the point about these red shirt protestors they are being played by Taksin who wants any government that is in power overthrown if they are not going to grant him an amnesty and allow him to return to Thailand so that he can release the multi millions of baht that are frozen plus all his other assets when this is achieved he will be off into the great blue yonder never to be heard of again then maybe we will have a democratic election and government to follow.

With Thaksin gone military and institutional interference in the Thai political system will continue just as it has over the course of the last 75 years.

How many coups now? 17 or 18?

And Thaksin's the real problem because he got caught with his hand in the till?

Edited April 13, 2009 by Oberkommando

[Charma]

it shoot blank people, make allot of sound, but it's blank.

The BBC and CNN have shown close up footage of soldiers loading their magazines - they were definately not blanks.

[LuckyFive8888]

Not to nitpick, but while the velocity of a falling round certainly does not have the same velocity as a directly-fired round, it still can be deadly. If the woman in our compound in Iraq had been hit in the body armor, the round almost certainly would not have penetrated (as it would have if it had been fired directly at her.) As it was, it hit her in the neck above the collar of her vest, and it killed her. She died within a minute or so.

While Mythbusters certainly provide good entertainment, and they do bust some myths, the fact of the matter is that rounds falling back to earth can still pose a threat. If you hear a lot of gunfire, the prudent thing to do is take some sort of cover (although a spent round may be coming from a rifle fired beyond your hearing.)

I have to laugh when Abhisit says that his troops only fired live bullets into the air. He obviously believes that bullets fired into the air will remain up there forever and never come down somewhere. This guy is beyond ridiculous. Some poor farmer might get hit in the head in the field kilometers away without even knowing where it came from. If you don't want to hurt somebody, don't fire with live bullets, period.

whatever aphisit says is ridiculous to you...

[LuckyFive8888]

He wants the fighting to stop

-he also said bring your children to the protest while he asked his to go out of the country...

The reason for aggression is only because the soldiers are firing live bullets into the crowd.

-and what about the incident in the interior ministry? the reds pulverised 2 mercedez benz and 1 bmw 7 series with flagpole, stones, bottles, etc. leaving the secretary to the PM 2 broken ribs and 2 drivers severely beaten.

There have been many many deaths of innocent Thai people

-in the south thailand? where the victims suffocated in several trucks?

He says all the red shirts are protesting for is a true democracy

-when there is true democracy 76 billion baht will be released???

If the soldiers had not started firing there would be no trouble

-how long will it take to position a truckload of gas before the police starts firing?

The protesters are not armed, they may have sticks and stones

-they must be like jesus christ where a stone can turn to bullet and kill 2 civilians.

He is loyal to the king

-revolution... come on.

He did not ask for revolution

-so now he is talking about 76 billion baht only

He does not direct the red shirts what to do, he just gives them moral support

-the word "fight" is not for moral support.

Under no circumstances is he giving them any money

-he just slipped in cnn about the 500 baht scheme.

The red shirts are there because they want to be, nobody is getting paid

-ask the people in the market how much they are getting...

All the media has been closed down and the truth is not getting out of Thailand, the people are being oppressed by a military government

-he is in cnn and bbc

He will be coming back

-we are waiting...

Edited April 13, 2009 by LuckyFive8888

[Trouble]

It would appear to me that many people are missing the point about these red shirt protestors they are being played by Taksin who wants any government that is in power overthrown if they are not going to grant him an amnesty and allow him to return to Thailand so that he can release the multi millions of baht that are frozen plus all his other assets when this is achieved he will be off into the great blue yonder never to be heard of again then maybe we will have a democratic election and government to follow.

With Thaksin gone military and institutional interference in the Thai political system will continue just as it has over the course of the last 75 years.

How many coups now? 17 or 18?

And Thaksin's the real problem because he got caught with his hand in the till?

Lot of truth in that!

Many believe that Taksin is pulling the strings with regard to the Red Shirts but I believe there are a lot of Red Shirt politicians that could care less whether Taksin returns or not. They have their own interests to worry about. They are out in the cold with Yellow Shirts in power. They may use Taksin's money and voice to keep their cause together but it is about their place in the scheme of things. They are using Taksin and he is using them.

There is only "logical" one solution to the current problem and that is to call for new elections. Unfortunately Thailand does not really work as a democracy it only has the appearance of one. The problem with this is that even if the elections could be considered fair, neither side wants to accept the results should they loose. This constant political situation in Thailand is not about one side favoring democracy over the other, it is about who wants to control the country for personal gain. There are few leaders in any of the political parties that don't come with a lot of baggage concerning corruption or rumors of how they achieved or increased their wealth. I don't think many Thais are under any illusion that either side is fighting for the betterment of Thailand. For the people it is a matter of what does one side or the other do for me or what is the least of the evils.

While the current prime minister may have been elected by his peers in the current government we need to go back to the point of the coup which ousted Taksin. Was that legal under the constitution in place at that time? In my mind it was not. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Taksin's regime had run it course and that he needed to go. The problem is that the mechanism for change is not very good under the Thai constitution. It has been written and rewritten to favor those in power. Those in power have a heavy hand in every aspect of the government including the judiciary and there is the problem. Since the judiciary has been under control of the government in power or subject to bribery, no charges could be investigated or brought against those in power (i.e. Taksin) and therefore no justice and no way to oust him. The military decides to move and ousts him for their own reasons. Elections result in the red shirts again becoming the predominant power and forming a government. This does not sit well with the people who wanted Taksin out originally because it wasn't just Taksin but the whole party they wanted out. The yellow shirts come along and stage their protests ultimately ending with them taking over the airports. They claim their aim is for democracy, but it is really to bring down the elected government with claims of voter fraud (real or imagined). They have other agendas such as seeking "justice" from the courts in the Taksin cases. Whether the courts made their findings against Taksin based facts or political reality or bribes we will never know but because the judicial system is so tainted the loosing side in the Taksin cases cannot accept the outcome. God knows they used to have control over the same system and they sure knows how it is manipulated. Same goes for the finding on the validity of some of the elections. The judicial system is so tainted that the winning side accepts the verdicts and the loosing side does not claiming bias, corruption, bribery, etc. Yellow shirts are reasonably content with the outcome and the Red shirts are not. Now it is their turn to take to the streets. They saw how successful the Yellow shirts had been. IF the judiciary was well respected and seen as independent the majority of people would be more likely to accept their findings. As it is, well, it's broken.

The sad thing to me is that the people know the whle system is so tainted that they can believe nothing. Red shirts like their base supporters of the rural poor because they can promise them anything by throwing bones to them. Yellow shirts talk democracy but really don't favor the rural poor having much of a say in elections and proposing some kind of election formulas favoring the "elite". That's not democracy. In reality, neither side wants "fair" elections IF it threatens their chance for winning. It is a pretty pathetic situation.

Even the current government was formed after certain members of the opposition came over to Abhisit. Were they bribed to do so? Did they do it for personal advantage? Did they do it in an honest attempt to form a government? Does either side really have a platform it can take to the Thai voters? Is this democracy? It is just a struggle for power between two sides neither of which have the best interests of Thailand at heart. Never forget that politics in even the "advanced" countries is about staying in power and getting reelected. Reelection is what most politicians work diligently for.

Sorry to sound so negative about politics in general but that is the way I see it. I rarely see a person seek election, work for his/her constituents and then after a period of time relinquish the post to let others "serve". Isn't that what elected representatives should do? Problem is that they get to like the prestige, power, etc. They get to think they are important and indispencible. In the western countries there are more controls watching over politicans which keeps them from crossing too far over the line. In countries like Thailand the sky is the limit for them. Most of the people in Thailand have resolved themselves to the fact that that is the way it is. They have learned to accept the corruption, etc. Neither the red, yellow, or now the blue shirts are out their protesting for a better Thailand but only to get a bigger piece of the pie. A Thai friend of mine readily admits that Newin was a corrupt crony of Taksin but since he broke with him he sees him in a better light. Still accepts the fact that he is a corrupt politician but the lessor of two evils. Surely a pathetic outlook for democracy.

So where does the current situation go from here? Seems that elections are the best bet but because no one will accept the outcome it will only lead to the same scenario over again later. If the parliment were really true representatives of the people they would call for new elections and the loosers would go home and get a job instead of trying to enrich themselves thru political office. I am afraid the best everyone can hope for is that one or the other side gets a sizeable amount of power somehow pacifies the opposition with some kind of deal which brings peace to the streets, throws out the bones to the poor, pacifies the "elite" and lets the majority of people go about their daily business. It certainly will NOT be democracy in action.

[wolf5370]

it shoot blank people, make allot of sound, but it's blank.

The BBC and CNN have shown close up footage of soldiers loading their magazines - they were definately not blanks.

This has been explained. The troops were given both. Some live rounds and ordered to shoot above the heads of the protestors; the others were given blanks and told to shoot at the crowds to cause them to retreat and break up. This was explained on the BBC by some General or other on the phone from Thailand. If they were emptying all those M16s in the crowd the TV screens would be filled with blood, body parts and bodies - how many did you see?

[worthingmike]

The army has not learned it lessons. You cannot win an uprising. Neither in the South, neither in Bangkok, neither in the North or North East. The army is big and slow, therefore the protestors can move quickly and strike wherever they want. if they want to disrupt the daily live they can do so. The army clear one crossing they take 4 crossings, when the army moves in, they move out, regroup and take new targets, huge armies have lost that way. There is not other solution than striking a deal which is acceptable for each and everyone.

You are right about the logistics, but since the Army is using live ammo they may well be on the road to a show of force if they are many will die and many will be wounded.

The reds do not seem to want to talk but rather confront. That is a formula for mayhem

Taksin Shinawatra has lost it; since losing his football team and his wife.

"Hand in the till Taksin" Has now billions to spend, so incites a civil war in the hope perhaps, that his paid thugs will encourage the protesters to want greedy power crazed Taksin; to return and maybe pronounce himself President of Thailand?

Sorry you are bored but take your billions and go play some other GAME and leave Thailand to live in peace to be run by honest people, go buy yourself another football team and PLEASE leave the Thai people alone.

[bulmercke]

I was at the Urapong - Rama VI area earlier today and spoke to different red-shirt supporters on several occasions. They all said the same - that six of their people had been killed by the military in the Din Daeng area of BKK earlier in the day and that the army had taken away the corpses.

This was before the two recent fatalities that has been widely reported in the media.

HOWEVER - the media has reported that no-one died last night - early this morning.

Who to believe?

On this - I go with the people I spoke to personally.

They were very obviously up-set and emotional about what had happened last night.

[moe666]

Tried to read all of the post but so much nonsense, speculation,and crap I just skipped ahead.

[Seizhin]

it shoot blank people, make allot of sound, but it's blank.

The BBC and CNN have shown close up footage of soldiers loading their magazines - they were definately not blanks.

Ditto this. I saw it as well, and still wonders that I was hallucinating as Sutheep said that the soldiers were shooting high up in the air.