From: At Least 77 Injured In Bangkok Clashes

[hammered]

Actually from what I know tear gas, live rounds and blank rounds were used.

There were some ex-military(US?) dudes on this baord explaining what was happening as we were watching the live pics: It was pointed out that some troops were manually cocking ther guns and these were likely firing blanks due to lower compression charges not being able to sustain continuous automatic fire. The Automatic fire -live rounds- was into the air, which could be seen most of the time on all local and international footage with live rounds fired direct into buses which were pock marked.

The military dudes and there were several all said that firning live round son auto direct into the crowd would have created carnage and one comment iirc was it would have bneen like the inside of a butchers shop with dead bodies and body parts everywhere.

That also fits with what would have happened from later conversations I have had with ex-military friends.

The BBC or CNN also reporte don the soldiers setting off "harmless explosives to scare demonstrators".

Whatever, considering the widespread nature of the violence and the threats to residents lives the clearance operation seems to have resulted in remarkably few casualties, which is good.

In 1992 journos were kept in a hotel while demonstrators were shot and even then when exiting evidence was clearly visible. In this day and age of the mobile phone camera and digicam there would almost certainly be multi pics of dead bodies corroborating each other by now if there were a lot of death. Is it really also possible to imaghine that the Thai army which lostits APCs to demonstartors the day before suddenly became so effcient that they could kill and disppear people and carry out such an efficient clean up operation that all evidence such as blood and body parts disappeared. It is also questionable whether the Thai military is such an undivided organization that they wouldnt have had leaks by now.

Thanks a lot krab khun Hammered for your very accurate explanation and depiction of what happened. I thought tear gas was never used, as I seemed to remember that Abhisit never mentioned it. But it seems that my memory isn't really that reliable. Anyway, like you said the most important and impressive outcome o the whole thing was that there was no deaths. Khob khun krab.

A lot of it isnt me but excellent explanations by ex-militray guys informing us who are unelightened on militray subjects.

I have vague memories of tear gas or it could have been smoke from the demonstrators buring things, but BBC at least did report the use of tear gas at one part of the day.

Interesting to comapre this clearance with the Oct 7 fiasco. Both were on live TV. Real time Live TV feed is uncensored. The Oct 7 thing shows how evidence of injury is so easy to see in an unruly event, and how so much of it gets caught in multiple corroborating shots.

[Koo82]

On tv, they said tear gas was used on 13th April. I never say tear gas can cause death or wounds. It is impossible. After 7th October last year, police tested tear gas they used to the yellows. Tear gas did not break the paper.

How many more reds do they have to catch to understand the reds fight for democracy?

Those reds claiming their family members missed since 13th April will continue to look for justice. They will never stop if Khun Thaksin stops.

If violence is used, problems will never end. Members of Peua Thai Party say problems in the South Thailand never stops because people don't receive justice.

Look at recent events. Did they fight for Khun Thaksin on 14th Oct 2516, 17th May 2530 and 19th Dec 2549?

[justanothercybertosser]

In the case of Angkhana, a 28 year called old "Nong" Bow (usually 28 year old women are not given the prefix "nong" in front of her name - that is reserved for young girls, but it made the issue far more emotive so it could be better exploited by PAD), there have been two investigations - one came to the result that she died of the teargas, and the other, that teargas was definitely not the cause of her death, as C4 was found on her shirt and brassiere. Until a third investigation is made, her cause of death is disputed.

Incorrect, the detection of C4 (RDX) wouldn't be any valid reason to say that the teargas canister wasn't the cause of the death as they are primed using RDX. It's frankly only disputed by a few hardcore reds. And some police, which frankly often is the same.

Dr. Pornthip is a forensic scientist, not an explosives expert.

The detection of RDX is their job. They don't have to know how to build or disassemble bombs to detect the residue.

Or you deny that?

The other dead protester was an ex-police officer heading the Buriram PAD guards. He blew up in his car - both hands were missing, the corpse was thrown out of the car, and only one leg remained inside the car, which makes is more than clear where and how the explosion happened - his own explosives went up in his hands. That happens at times.

The corpse wasn't thrown out of the car, a large chunk of his brain was found in the tree next to the car. The hands wasn't thrown out either as I could see, could you post any pictures?

Granted I only saw a video of pretty much the full event, but whatever...

The hands are completely missing. The body was thrown out of the car, apart from one leg. And yes, brain was found outside.

Police does have certified explosives experts which have been conducting their investigations. Not all Thai police officers are traffic cops asking for 100 baht for minor violations.

I am not saying that either side is right. What i am saying is that given the conflicting investigation results we do need a third investigation. And it might be a good idea that this investigation is internationally monitored to assure fairness. Police can be accused to be partial, but also the NACC and NHRC are to be seen as partial, given that both organizations are staffed by people that have attended the PAD protests.

[hammered]

Actually from what I know tear gas, live rounds and blank rounds were used.

There were some ex-military(US?) dudes on this baord explaining what was happening as we were watching the live pics: It was pointed out that some troops were manually cocking ther guns and these were likely firing blanks due to lower compression charges not being able to sustain continuous automatic fire. The Automatic fire -live rounds- was into the air, which could be seen most of the time on all local and international footage with live rounds fired direct into buses which were pock marked.

The military dudes and there were several all said that firning live round son auto direct into the crowd would have created carnage and one comment iirc was it would have bneen like the inside of a butchers shop with dead bodies and body parts everywhere.

That also fits with what would have happened from later conversations I have had with ex-military friends.

The BBC or CNN also reporte don the soldiers setting off "harmless explosives to scare demonstrators".

Whatever, considering the widespread nature of the violence and the threats to residents lives the clearance operation seems to have resulted in remarkably few casualties, which is good.

In 1992 journos were kept in a hotel while demonstrators were shot and even then when exiting evidence was clearly visible. In this day and age of the mobile phone camera and digicam there would almost certainly be multi pics of dead bodies corroborating each other by now if there were a lot of death. Is it really also possible to imaghine that the Thai army which lostits APCs to demonstartors the day before suddenly became so effcient that they could kill and disppear people and carry out such an efficient clean up operation that all evidence such as blood and body parts disappeared. It is also questionable whether the Thai military is such an undivided organization that they wouldnt have had leaks by now.

There are two spots that are disputed and where a small amount of people could have been killed.

The early morning assault at Din Daeng (where very few journalists were present, and no sufficient footage is available to make any judgment confirming either side of the argument), and in which also personal handguns were used by soldiers.

The second spot not much is known about is the fighting at night at Nang Leon/Saphan Khaow between Red Shirts and local residents/PAD.

There definitely was no massacre similar to May '92, but it is yet too early to conclude that there were no people killed, and no cover-up. What can be stated is that there is no proof so far, but there are reports of missing people. More time has to pass before making any clear statement on this issue.

2 people were killed. Likely be red guards. If anymore were, evidence is needed although time is passing for this to appear.

Demonstrators/Rioters the world over use exaggerated claims of injuires and death to further incite crowds and followers, and fule campaigns. Can it be denied that this is not the case here? Even if a death or two were to be found the claims of leaders that hundreds, then dozens, then eight show a tendency to adopt that kind of tactic which is worrying for anyone who would like to see reconcilliation.

Im still not sure you need reporters to have pics in this day and age of "people journalism" where every event far beyond what reporters attend is snapped or recorded on mobile phones and digicams pretty much anywhere in the world. That multiple corroborating pics and bodies and forensic evidence are not coming up certainly casts doubt right now although of course this could change.

[Koo82]

Regarding the event of the night 12th April and early morning 13th, how can anyone have a decent photo when it's dark like this? All videos on tv are shown when it was bright and no soldier will shoot at the reds at day time when reporters of many countries are around.

When it was this dark, even people living in apartments did not dare to stick their heads out to shoot videos, worrying soldiers might shoot up the sky and they might catch the bullets.

All we can do is to wait. The truth is still the truth.

[photojourn]

Actually from what I know tear gas, live rounds and blank rounds were used.

There were some ex-military(US?) dudes on this baord explaining what was happening as we were watching the live pics: It was pointed out that some troops were manually cocking ther guns and these were likely firing blanks due to lower compression charges not being able to sustain continuous automatic fire. The Automatic fire -live rounds- was into the air, which could be seen most of the time on all local and international footage with live rounds fired direct into buses which were pock marked.

The military dudes and there were several all said that firning live round son auto direct into the crowd would have created carnage and one comment iirc was it would have bneen like the inside of a butchers shop with dead bodies and body parts everywhere.

That also fits with what would have happened from later conversations I have had with ex-military friends.

The BBC or CNN also reporte don the soldiers setting off "harmless explosives to scare demonstrators".

Whatever, considering the widespread nature of the violence and the threats to residents lives the clearance operation seems to have resulted in remarkably few casualties, which is good.

In 1992 journos were kept in a hotel while demonstrators were shot and even then when exiting evidence was clearly visible. In this day and age of the mobile phone camera and digicam there would almost certainly be multi pics of dead bodies corroborating each other by now if there were a lot of death. Is it really also possible to imaghine that the Thai army which lostits APCs to demonstartors the day before suddenly became so effcient that they could kill and disppear people and carry out such an efficient clean up operation that all evidence such as blood and body parts disappeared. It is also questionable whether the Thai military is such an undivided organization that they wouldnt have had leaks by now.

This sounds right from what I've been told by some Thai soldiers who said live rounds were issued to soldiers who took position at the rear of those firing training rounds - first row shields and batons, second row blank rounds, third row soldiers with live rounds. Officers all have live rounds in their pistols.

[TAWP]

Regarding the event of the night 12th April and early morning 13th, how can anyone have a decent photo when it's dark like this? All videos on tv are shown when it was bright and no soldier will shoot at the reds at day time when reporters of many countries are around.

When it was this dark, even people living in apartments did not dare to stick their heads out to shoot videos, worrying soldiers might shoot up the sky and they might catch the bullets.

All we can do is to wait. The truth is still the truth.

Any homevideo camera has 'NIGHT SHOT' ability since 10 years.

Most modern cellphones has flashes to supplement the light-intake.

Any real cameras will have flashes with the ability to illuminate even complete dark alleys.

And your claim that people was to scared is really silly. Found the clips online with people videotaping caps taking bribes in full daylight? Here the people filming would be at much higher risk of being seen and possible have something terrible happening to them. You claim people was apparently huddling under their beds our of fear so they could film from inside, in cover of darkness...as not every apartment are located directly above the events going on. And filming across the street could therefor be done from several feet inside an apartment too.

[photojourn]

Actually from what I know tear gas, live rounds and blank rounds were used.

There were some ex-military(US?) dudes on this baord explaining what was happening as we were watching the live pics: It was pointed out that some troops were manually cocking ther guns and these were likely firing blanks due to lower compression charges not being able to sustain continuous automatic fire. The Automatic fire -live rounds- was into the air, which could be seen most of the time on all local and international footage with live rounds fired direct into buses which were pock marked.

The military dudes and there were several all said that firning live round son auto direct into the crowd would have created carnage and one comment iirc was it would have bneen like the inside of a butchers shop with dead bodies and body parts everywhere.

That also fits with what would have happened from later conversations I have had with ex-military friends.

The BBC or CNN also reporte don the soldiers setting off "harmless explosives to scare demonstrators".

Whatever, considering the widespread nature of the violence and the threats to residents lives the clearance operation seems to have resulted in remarkably few casualties, which is good.

In 1992 journos were kept in a hotel while demonstrators were shot and even then when exiting evidence was clearly visible. In this day and age of the mobile phone camera and digicam there would almost certainly be multi pics of dead bodies corroborating each other by now if there were a lot of death. Is it really also possible to imaghine that the Thai army which lostits APCs to demonstartors the day before suddenly became so effcient that they could kill and disppear people and carry out such an efficient clean up operation that all evidence such as blood and body parts disappeared. It is also questionable whether the Thai military is such an undivided organization that they wouldnt have had leaks by now.

There are two spots that are disputed and where a small amount of people could have been killed.

The early morning assault at Din Daeng (where very few journalists were present, and no sufficient footage is available to make any judgment confirming either side of the argument), and in which also personal handguns were used by soldiers.

The second spot not much is known about is the fighting at night at Nang Leon/Saphan Khaow between Red Shirts and local residents/PAD.

There definitely was no massacre similar to May '92, but it is yet too early to conclude that there were no people killed, and no cover-up. What can be stated is that there is no proof so far, but there are reports of missing people. More time has to pass before making any clear statement on this issue.

The absence of bodies does not prove anything. It took two weeks and two autopsies for the death of Ian Tomlinson at the G20 protests to emerge and that was in London.

[webfact]

Regarding the event of the night 12th April and early morning 13th, how can anyone have a decent photo when it's dark like this? All videos on tv are shown when it was bright and no soldier will shoot at the reds at day time when reporters of many countries are around.

When it was this dark, even people living in apartments did not dare to stick their heads out to shoot videos, worrying soldiers might shoot up the sky and they might catch the bullets.

All we can do is to wait. The truth is still the truth.

Any homevideo camera has 'NIGHT SHOT' ability since 10 years.

Most modern cellphones has flashes to supplement the light-intake.

Any real cameras will have flashes with the ability to illuminate even complete dark alleys.

And your claim that people was to scared is really silly. Found the clips online with people videotaping caps taking bribes in full daylight? Here the people filming would be at much higher risk of being seen and possible have something terrible happening to them. You claim people was apparently huddling under their beds our of fear so they could film from inside, in cover of darkness...as not every apartment are located directly above the events going on. And filming across the street could therefor be done from several feet inside an apartment too.

a good cell phone can do the same job. Take pictures without flash! Simply turn "night vision" on. Example Nokia N82. And phones they are even smaller than cameras....

No need for "night vision" equipment or flash

Edited April 29, 2009 by LivinginKata

[justanothercybertosser]

2 people were killed. Likely be red guards. If anymore were, evidence is needed although time is passing for this to appear.

Demonstrators/Rioters the world over use exaggerated claims of injuires and death to further incite crowds and followers, and fule campaigns. Can it be denied that this is not the case here? Even if a death or two were to be found the claims of leaders that hundreds, then dozens, then eight show a tendency to adopt that kind of tactic which is worrying for anyone who would like to see reconcilliation.

Im still not sure you need reporters to have pics in this day and age of "people journalism" where every event far beyond what reporters attend is snapped or recorded on mobile phones and digicams pretty much anywhere in the world. That multiple corroborating pics and bodies and forensic evidence are not coming up certainly casts doubt right now although of course this could change.

Even in the May '92 events the amounts of dead still widely differ, there are still many people missing. I of course do not compare these two events, but just want to point out that it is not unheard of here that corpses do go missing. There are reports of missing people, we will have to wait if these people appear again, or not.

The footage i have seen from the early morning attacks at Din Daeng are simply not conclusive. One video i have seen was done from very high up, and very low quality. Another video i saw was the brutal beating of one protester by several soldiers. There simply are not enough videos out that can confirm or deny possible killings.

From the fights at night in Nang Loen i have seen no footage whatsoever, and only very few photos. People journalism in darkness, with shots fired, and close enough to see details? Highly unlikely. There is a reason why so few images from professionals who were in the vicinity are out about these two events.

Hundreds or dozens of dead? Highly unlikely. A few, possible. Reconciliation is not possible without impartial investigations. Yet, the government issuing statements before facts could have possibly been known, the same day already, does not bode well for reconciliation or impartial investigations. Even their first statements that no real bullets whatsoever have been used, has been proven wrong even before this statement was issued. It is not just Puah Thai MP's who are issuing false statements, but also the government.

Therefore i would suggest to wait until more is known (if there ever will be - the investigation into May '92 is still secret, for example) before following either camp's statements.

[justanothercybertosser]

And your claim that people was to scared is really silly.

That statement can only come from a person who has never been in a nightly combat situation. There is little that is more terrifying than such a situation.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Koo, if you say "All we can do is wait. The truth is the truth." Then why are you sprouting all these rumours which are completely unsubstantiated?

[Koo82]

a good cell phone can do the same job. Take pictures without flash! Simply turn "night vision" on. Example Nokia N82. And phones they are even smaller than cameras....

No need for "night vision" equipment or flash

I don't know if those Isan reds all have good cell phones with them, still had batteries after many days on the street, and could use when being beaten or could use when being chased and shot by soldiers.

The post in Bangkok Post said about a red who said he jumped out from the truck carrying about 10 people towards Lop Buri. He should have photos to show. Unfortunately he is not James Bond.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

[Koo82]

Koo, if you say "All we can do is wait. The truth is the truth." Then why are you sprouting all these rumours which are completely unsubstantiated?

They are my comments when viewing pictures, video clips and reading news.

[Koo82]

The chairman of Siam Gas and Petrochemicals (SGP), former supreme commander Gen Chaisit Shinawatra, says he will sue Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban for accusing him of allowing SGP liquefied-gas tankers to be placed in urban areas of Din Daeng during the anti-government riots on April 13.

Gen Chaisit, who is former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's older cousin, denied the accusation.

He said he would take legal action over the claims by Mr Suthep and other officials that he gave a green light for red-shirt protesters to drive LPG tankers to the Din Daeng intersection.

The claims discredited him and were defamatory. Although he was the chairman of SPG he could not give such an order, he said.

He said the government could not find the guilty party and so tried to link him with Thaksin.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-against-suthep

-- Bangkok Post 2009-29-04

[ThNiner]

a good cell phone can do the same job. Take pictures without flash! Simply turn "night vision" on. Example Nokia N82. And phones they are even smaller than cameras....

No need for "night vision" equipment or flash

I don't know if those Isan reds all have good cell phones with them, still had batteries after many days on the street, and could use when being beaten or could use when being chased and shot by soldiers.

The post in Bangkok Post said about a red who said he jumped out from the truck carrying about 10 people towards Lop Buri. He should have photos to show. Unfortunately he is not James Bond.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

Koo82, Khun webfact and Tawp meant anyone, not just your red brethrens, could have taken the pictures or video clips nowadays as the technology is so easily available. So why is there still not a single shred of evidence of numorous red deaths as you boringly have claimed?

[ThNiner]

The post in Bangkok Post said about a red who said he jumped out from the truck carrying about 10 people towards Lop Buri. He should have photos to show. Unfortunately he is not James Bond.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

Without any concrete evidence, I too could have claimed that I saw Thaksin raping you in your bedroom. But that doesn't make it true, one bit. You need evidence to prove it. Don't you find it strange that you can believe whatever the reds say so easily without any evidence, but equally easily you can refuse and dismiss any court rulings against Thaksin and his family despite all the evidence stacked up against them?

Where is your logic or standard in believing anything? Huh?

Edited April 29, 2009 by ThNiner

[hammered]

2 people were killed. Likely be red guards. If anymore were, evidence is needed although time is passing for this to appear.

Demonstrators/Rioters the world over use exaggerated claims of injuires and death to further incite crowds and followers, and fule campaigns. Can it be denied that this is not the case here? Even if a death or two were to be found the claims of leaders that hundreds, then dozens, then eight show a tendency to adopt that kind of tactic which is worrying for anyone who would like to see reconcilliation.

Im still not sure you need reporters to have pics in this day and age of "people journalism" where every event far beyond what reporters attend is snapped or recorded on mobile phones and digicams pretty much anywhere in the world. That multiple corroborating pics and bodies and forensic evidence are not coming up certainly casts doubt right now although of course this could change.

Even in the May '92 events the amounts of dead still widely differ, there are still many people missing. I of course do not compare these two events, but just want to point out that it is not unheard of here that corpses do go missing. There are reports of missing people, we will have to wait if these people appear again, or not.

The footage i have seen from the early morning attacks at Din Daeng are simply not conclusive. One video i have seen was done from very high up, and very low quality. Another video i saw was the brutal beating of one protester by several soldiers. There simply are not enough videos out that can confirm or deny possible killings.

From the fights at night in Nang Loen i have seen no footage whatsoever, and only very few photos. People journalism in darkness, with shots fired, and close enough to see details? Highly unlikely. There is a reason why so few images from professionals who were in the vicinity are out about these two events.

Hundreds or dozens of dead? Highly unlikely. A few, possible. Reconciliation is not possible without impartial investigations. Yet, the government issuing statements before facts could have possibly been known, the same day already, does not bode well for reconciliation or impartial investigations. Even their first statements that no real bullets whatsoever have been used, has been proven wrong even before this statement was issued. It is not just Puah Thai MP's who are issuing false statements, but also the government.

Therefore i would suggest to wait until more is known (if there ever will be - the investigation into May '92 is still secret, for example) before following either camp's statements.

It is not impossible for reconcilliation before investigations into this as most people in the country are not involved in the events and with it live on TV most have already made up their mind no doubt. It also shouldnt be underestimated that as much as the extremes on both sides try to cause further division and hatred and seem to not care about more violence or ion some cases even advocate it, that it is not hard to find peopel who just want both sides to $%^# off! In the aftermath of violence whatever is behind it there is a good reason to say no more and try to find ways to reconcile politcal differences. What happened at Songkhran shouldnot be an excuse to delay this political process but should be an incentive to get moving obn with no reason for delay or gamesmanship whatsoever.

[TAWP]

And your claim that people was to scared is really silly.

Yawn...

That statement can only come from a person who has never been in a nightly combat situation. There is little that is more terrifying than such a situation.

Atleast you have proven that you have no clue as to other posters qualifications or history. Good job.

[hammered]

The chairman of Siam Gas and Petrochemicals (SGP), former supreme commander Gen Chaisit Shinawatra, says he will sue Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban for accusing him of allowing SGP liquefied-gas tankers to be placed in urban areas of Din Daeng during the anti-government riots on April 13.

Gen Chaisit, who is former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's older cousin, denied the accusation.

He said he would take legal action over the claims by Mr Suthep and other officials that he gave a green light for red-shirt protesters to drive LPG tankers to the Din Daeng intersection.

The claims discredited him and were defamatory. Although he was the chairman of SPG he could not give such an order, he said.

He said the government could not find the guilty party and so tried to link him with Thaksin.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-against-suthep

And no doubt our wronged general is taking disciplinary action against the drivers of the tankers form his company and has given their names to the authorites so they can be prosecuted for not only theft but also intent on a number of areas. Surely he also owes concerend residents of Bangkok an explanation as to how a number ioif his trucks managed to coem to be used for the purpose of terrifying people and maybe an apology for lack of security at his firm.

[Samuian]

The chairman of Siam Gas and Petrochemicals (SGP), former supreme commander Gen Chaisit Shinawatra, says he will sue Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban for accusing him of allowing SGP liquefied-gas tankers to be placed in urban areas of Din Daeng during the anti-government riots on April 13.

Gen Chaisit, who is former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's older cousin, denied the accusation.

He said he would take legal action over the claims by Mr Suthep and other officials that he gave a green light for red-shirt protesters to drive LPG tankers to the Din Daeng intersection.

The claims discredited him and were defamatory. Although he was the chairman of SPG he could not give such an order, he said.

He said the government could not find the guilty party and so tried to link him with Thaksin.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-against-suthep

And no doubt our wronged general is taking disciplinary action against the drivers of the tankers form his company and has given their names to the authorites so they can be prosecuted for not only theft but also intent on a number of areas. Surely he also owes concerend residents of Bangkok an explanation as to how a number ioif his trucks managed to coem to be used for the purpose of terrifying people and maybe an apology for lack of security at his firm.

"The chairman of Siam Gas and Petrochemicals (SGP), former supreme commander Gen Chaisit Shinawatra,"

Well, what a intriguing pure coincidence...

it's getting really incredible - do they want to lose all their credibility?

Do they really think they get away with this?

Hope the drivers of these gas-trucks - give away and tell the courts, the public that they have been given orders!

When will the Citizens of this country understand come to grips that with the bowing to the "puu yai" system they are holding themselves, their dignity and their, as their countries future - hostage?!

[Sandstone Art]

a good cell phone can do the same job. Take pictures without flash! Simply turn "night vision" on. Example Nokia N82. And phones they are even smaller than cameras....

No need for "night vision" equipment or flash

I don't know if those Isan reds all have good cell phones with them, still had batteries after many days on the street, and could use when being beaten or could use when being chased and shot by soldiers.

The post in Bangkok Post said about a red who said he jumped out from the truck carrying about 10 people towards Lop Buri. He should have photos to show. Unfortunately he is not James Bond.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

OH Please!

What kind of 'reasons' are you giving?

You mean some or any Isan Red do not and cannot afford to the better type of handphone? After many days on the street?

This the such a Joke!

We are talking about thousands of reds....not one or two.

Can't any one from the thousands that wanted to fight for democracy take some photos with their working phone?

[HagenvonTronje]

Actually from what I know tear gas, live rounds and blank rounds were used.

...

The military dudes and there were several all said that firning live round son auto direct into the crowd would have created carnage and one comment iirc was it would have bneen like the inside of a butchers shop with dead bodies and body parts everywhere.

That also fits with what would have happened from later conversations I have had with ex-military friends.

The BBC or CNN also reporte don the soldiers setting off "harmless explosives to scare demonstrators".

Whatever, considering the widespread nature of the violence and the threats to residents lives the clearance operation seems to have resulted in remarkably few casualties, which is good.

In 1992 journos were kept in a hotel while demonstrators were shot and even then when exiting evidence was clearly visible. In this day and age of the mobile phone camera and digicam there would almost certainly be multi pics of dead bodies corroborating each other by now if there were a lot of death. Is it really also possible to imaghine that the Thai army which lostits APCs to demonstartors the day before suddenly became so effcient that they could kill and disppear people and carry out such an efficient clean up operation that all evidence such as blood and body parts disappeared. It is also questionable whether the Thai military is such an undivided organization that they wouldnt have had leaks by now.

bangkok post has the story with the tear gar, that is was used and that people got injured by tear gas

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1498...o-restore-order

here is a BBC clip, a short one 2:53. the reporter talks about live rounds. at the end a situation with the "locals" as the reporter call them. it's a bunch of hooligangs, prepared for street fight, as they wearing protective gear, look after what they go.

that clip is longer at 2: you see bodies on a stretcher lay down the road, all is very darkif you just got scared awayb by paper bullets and you see from far away this scene, what it may look like? or just try yourself make picture with a ca,era ohone after you just ran away from soldiers and tear gas. i don't say hunderds have been killed, but i can not understand do get called fanatic when i say a few would have been possible. do you believe the army?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_vjXQntWeQ

from the crackdown at night time there is also nearly zero video footage, wasn't there any bigger street fight at all at this time? reports in the morning at least 77 injured persons and later more. Nick Nostitz was there, but his account don't get excepted here on this board.

anyway, the 7. oct investigation results came also up much later and are still not believed, but here i should trust what the army said after the frist night?

what makes me wounder that there isn't so much reports and evidence on those gas truck tanks, why? and there is evidence about the false reporting in thai press and on thai TV also.

and what was with this tank or armoured vehicle, that could so easy sized by the reds., the day before in front of siam paradon. was it a set up? to justify , if later necessary, a crackdown by any means. was someone hopping for pictures with more drama, instead a laughing crowd dance on the tanks? that was useless for propaganda.

good is the number of injured is actually low and i guess most of them coming from the night and early morning. and later that day nothing much more happend. except the buses. how much in total? i saw lot's of sleepy soldiers just waiting.

apart from the initial disperse, how many red shirt did take part in the street riots. i guess not much. so at all nothing really serious had happen, something that would justify a further crackdown. initially i did believe the hyperbole and exaggeration of the red hater. but if i look at the videos again, mostly only crowds of soldiers firing in to the air and now and then the beat up a red shirt. but thats all.

[hammered]

The chairman of Siam Gas and Petrochemicals (SGP), former supreme commander Gen Chaisit Shinawatra, says he will sue Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban for accusing him of allowing SGP liquefied-gas tankers to be placed in urban areas of Din Daeng during the anti-government riots on April 13.

Gen Chaisit, who is former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's older cousin, denied the accusation.

He said he would take legal action over the claims by Mr Suthep and other officials that he gave a green light for red-shirt protesters to drive LPG tankers to the Din Daeng intersection.

The claims discredited him and were defamatory. Although he was the chairman of SPG he could not give such an order, he said.

He said the government could not find the guilty party and so tried to link him with Thaksin.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-against-suthep

And no doubt our wronged general is taking disciplinary action against the drivers of the tankers form his company and has given their names to the authorites so they can be prosecuted for not only theft but also intent on a number of areas. Surely he also owes concerend residents of Bangkok an explanation as to how a number ioif his trucks managed to coem to be used for the purpose of terrifying people and maybe an apology for lack of security at his firm.

"The chairman of Siam Gas and Petrochemicals (SGP), former supreme commander Gen Chaisit Shinawatra,"

Well, what a intriguing pure coincidence...

it's getting really incredible - do they want to lose all their credibility?

Do they really think they get away with this?

Hope the drivers of these gas-trucks - give away and tell the courts, the public that they have been given orders!

When will the Citizens of this country understand come to grips that with the bowing to the "puu yai" system they are holding themselves, their dignity and their, as their countries future - hostage?!

If you tsalk to resident sof Din Daeng flats you will find at least the driver down there was blind drunk and incredibly threatening. However, he may not even remember a thing. As the residents drove him and his fellow reds off before authorities arrived it is unlikely he will be easily arrested although no doubt our intrepi general could supply the authorites with a list of names and addresses of his drivers.

[animatic]

The post in Bangkok Post said about a red who said he jumped out from the truck carrying about 10 people towards Lop Buri. He should have photos to show. Unfortunately he is not James Bond.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

Without any concrete evidence, I too could have claimed that I saw Thaksin raping you in your bedroom. But that doesn't make it true, one bit. You need evidence to prove it. Don't you find it strange that you can believe whatever the reds say so easily without any evidence, but equally easily you can refuse and dismiss any court rulings against Thaksin and his family despite all the evidence stacked up against them?

Where is your logic or standard in believing anything? Huh?

She appears to have been indoctrinated to believe; all but her red instructors are LIARS.

And since ALL others are LIARS, then how can you believe anyone but your instructors.

It's right out of the Thai school system in many ways;

Whatever rote learning is repeated often enough becomes truth like your masters want.

All the press except for red press are LIARS

All people NOT RED are LIARS

Thaksin has NEVER told a LIE.

All women are his daughters

All men are to be like him.

He walks on water and forgives all your sins,

do what you must for him and his cause, which is for you.

You will be forgiven all things because you do the right things for him.

So you can displace the evil middle class and become a good

and blessed by grace middle class.

Only you are the true right thinking Thais

all others want to keep you down.

There is an excessive fervor to all this red business....

Edited April 29, 2009 by animatic

[ThNiner]

The post in Bangkok Post said about a red who said he jumped out from the truck carrying about 10 people towards Lop Buri. He should have photos to show. Unfortunately he is not James Bond.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

Without any concrete evidence, I too could have claimed that I saw Thaksin raping you in your bedroom. But that doesn't make it true, one bit. You need evidence to prove it. Don't you find it strange that you can believe whatever the reds say so easily without any evidence, but equally easily you can refuse and dismiss any court rulings against Thaksin and his family despite all the evidence stacked up against them?

Where is your logic or standard in believing anything? Huh?

She appears to have been indoctrinated to believe; all but her red instructors are LIARS.

And since ALL others are LIARS, then how can you believe anyone but your instructors.

It's right out of the Thai school system in many ways;

Whatever rote learning is repeated often enough becomes truth like your masters want.

All the press except for red press are LIARS

All people NOT RED are LIARS

Thaksin has NEVER told a LIE.

All women are his daughters

All men are to be like him.

He walks on water and forgives all your sins,

do what you must for him and his cause, which is for you.

You will be forgiven all things because you do the right things for him.

So you can displace the evil middle class and become a good

and blessed by grace middle class.

Only you are the true right thinking Thais

all others want to keep you down.

I went to school in Thailand too (up until high school level.) But I'm pretty sure that I can use logics and deliberate. Something is certianly seriously wrong with people like Koo82 though. I can only hope that majority of my countrymen aren't like her.

[animatic]

Thnr, while we don't always agree, I do think you use reasoned arguments for making you points.

Yes, I have met many Thais who have developed their own minds on their own paths,

a few have said that was well after leaving school. I find a Thai artist who is a true original,

and I marvel at the path he had to cross to get there. I see the kids doing their own robotics

projects and entering contests with novel takes on problems and I can't help but smile.

Sadly, far to often I find an intelligent person, who wouldn't dare improvise,

because THAT freedom has been intellectually beaten out of them by the school system.

Edited April 29, 2009 by animatic

[HagenvonTronje]

She appears to have been indoctrinated to believe; all but her red instructors are LIARS.

And since ALL others are LIARS, then how can you believe anyone but your instructors.

It's right out of the Thai school system in many ways;

...

so whats up, mob poster. koo2 posted a link to the bangkok post and you go gaga.

same crap as The Nation and in other situation praised as holy truth.

both of you got caught red handed with lies and false informations here in this thread.

th.niner has at least a little bit interest on communication, sometimes. tried to back up claims and brings content.

but you A have you anything to say or just fantasy.

don't want got called LIAR - don't lie.

fact, fiction, fantasy - do you know there is a difference?

koo is able to stay on topic, what ever you think about the information she want to share with us. it's somehow on topic and never a character assassination.

[animatic]

So says the font of all accuracy and honesty.

P-D give it a break.

You haven't caught anything more than a cold.

I have discussed things with Koo for quite some time.

I used to have reasoned discussions with her, that has changed.

I see a change for the negative that is verifiable in the course of her posts.

I don't blame Koo for these changes, since she started regularly attending red rally's

but others leading her down the garden path as it were.

And you of course seem to applaud this departure form traditional reality,

because it seems to fit some of your motivations...

Edited April 29, 2009 by animatic

[TAWP]

HagenvonTronje>> A link to a news-post, about a single 'witness' that says he saw something but without evidence that anything he says is true... is hardly something solid.

Unlike Koo82 in the past, Animatics post you responded to didn't contain any lies.

So be more careful as to whom you bash and why.

Edited April 29, 2009 by TAWP