From: At Least 77 Injured In Bangkok Clashes

[Jai Dee]

Monk - I saw Thai army shoot monk and people at Din Daeng

"Sajja" says he saw Thai soldiers shoot a monk and around 10 other people at Din Daeng on April 13, 2009 and then remove the bodies and wash the road (face obscured by request over personal safety concerns). Photo John Le Fevre

A Bangkok monk says claims by the Thailand government that the army only fired blanks at red-shirted pro-democracy supporters at Din Daeng last Monday are not true and that those shot include a Buddhist monk.

The accusations by the head monk of a Bangkok city temple come despite repeated claims by Thailand Prime Minister Abhisit Veijajiva that the only fatalities from the government crack-down on pro-democracy supporters were the result of clashes between protesters and residents in the Nang Lerng market area on Monday (April 13th) night.

You can read more from John Le Fevre's NewsBlog here.

[phetpeter]

About ten? Thats a small number if it is true, but, Then why have we not heard any names or families calling for missing people? What about missing people photos< what about telephone camera pictures? Hmm!

People keep on about yellow shirts, there was no need for the army. Why? because most of the yellows shirts didn't riot, they sat around, sung songs, cleaned up after themselves, they didn't steal buses or set fire to tyres and offer to blow everyone up with gas containers.

And they didn't attack people in their cars or break into hotels. So! bringing the yellow shirts in as acting same same was ok, until the reds crossed the line in Pattaya.

[LawnGnome]

Monk - I saw Thai army shoot monk and people at Din Daeng

"Sajja" says he saw Thai soldiers shoot a monk and around 10 other people at Din Daeng on April 13, 2009 and then remove the bodies and wash the road (face obscured by request over personal safety concerns). Photo John Le Fevre

A Bangkok monk says claims by the Thailand government that the army only fired blanks at red-shirted pro-democracy supporters at Din Daeng last Monday are not true and that those shot include a Buddhist monk.

The accusations by the head monk of a Bangkok city temple come despite repeated claims by Thailand Prime Minister Abhisit Veijajiva that the only fatalities from the government crack-down on pro-democracy supporters were the result of clashes between protesters and residents in the Nang Lerng market area on Monday (April 13th) night.

You can read more from John Le Fevre's NewsBlog here.

Not sure if what Mr. Le Fevre writes qualifies as "news". This is the same man who say "hundreds of thousands" at the D-Day rally.

[TAWP]

The url is also close to the nick of a user here that was very clearly pro-RED...

[xminator]

News posted by clearly pro-YELLOW seem to be taken as gospel, so maybe keep an open mind on whats posted from someone else too. Also keep in mind that the current government been "found out" on another coverup/denial regarding treatment of the boat people (forgot name right now R something).

DSI asked to probe crowd dispersal

By: BangkokPost.com

Published: 18/04/2009 at 04:08 PM The opposition Puea Thai party planned to submit documents and evidence relating to the dispersal of red-shirt rioters in Bangkok last week to the Department of Special Investigations (DSI) and the Royal Thai Police.

Forty-five relatives of the red-shirt protesters sent their complaints regarding the government's move to end the anti-government rally to the opposition party, Puea Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit said on Saturday.

According to the complaints, 18 people were injured, six went missing and one person died during the about the crowd dispersal.

Relatives also insisted that a red-shirt protester died during the rally, Mr Prompong said.

He said the party will forward the documents and evidence to the DSI and the police to ensure fair and transparent investigation.

The Puea Thai party also called on the government to lift the Emergency Decree in Bangkok and five nearby provinces immediately so the justice system can operate normally, he said.

Edited April 18, 2009 by xminator

[TAWP]

Hundreds of dead turned into one presumed dead.

Amazing.

So the Reds still killed more civilians themselves that day.

[xminator]

Hundreds of dead turned into one presumed dead.

Amazing.

So the Reds still killed more civilians themselves that day.

Even if 1 is proved dead, its a lie from the government, and would in any civilized country create serious fallout.

(edit: fixed sentence to make more sense.)

Edited April 18, 2009 by xminator

[h90]

Hundreds of dead turned into one presumed dead.

Amazing.

So the Reds still killed more civilians themselves that day.

Even if 1 is proved dead, its a lie from the government, and would in any civilized country create serious fallout.

(edit: fixed sentence to make more sense.)

I don't want to see what would happen in a civilized when they storm the asean summit or try to make pressure with liquid gas trucks.

They would be handled like terrorists.

[pete_r]

There is something not clear in the sequence of events from 11 to 14 April. Several posts so far mention that the rioting in Bangkok was not acceptable, so that the army had to intervene. However, the pictures I saw on television news ("normal" channels, not the D-station nor ASTV) show the following:

Saturday 11/04: ASEAN meeting canceled. Scuffles between the reds and the blue in Pattaya. The army deployed around the hotel of the summit are pushed around but not fighting.

Sunday 12/04: Reds block Bangkok streets (Din Daeng / Victory monument in particular). Some army deployed in Bangkok, but no fighting. Pictures of two APCs (armored personnel carriers) being taken by the reds; soldiers and police talking with the protesters. No rioting, no tyres burning, no buses burning.

Monday 13/04: Crackdown by the army begins early morning at the Din Daeng triangle. According to the Nation article in the OP, "troops were in almost complete control of the Din Daeng intersection after 6am", with 77 protesters injured. First pictures of the day are of the gas truck being pushed in front of the Din Daeng flats. Pictures of buses and tyres burning appear later during that day (monday).

Tuesday 14/04: Reds announce end of protests.

Getting to the point: The blocking of the roads in Bangkok was a nuisance, but can't be described as rioting until monday 13/04, after the beginning of the army crackdown in Din Daeng in the early morning. So that the rioting was a consequence, not a cause, of the crackdown.

Anyone cares to confirm or contradict?

[phetpeter]

I am sure that the start was when the red shirts turned from shouting and demonstarting into a mob when they found the police and army would not be provoked into a fight, because the government had told them to not attack but to talk them out of demonstating. So the reds decided they had free range to smash, crash and finally try to maim and kill members of the government. By the time the army went to quell the mob, the touble had already started, and under the decree and of course any miltary operation, there has to be a news black out.

If a mob member is standing with a lit petrol bomb in his hand and is going to throw that item at the army...should he/she be shot? Of course he should, his aim is to cause injury, maim or perhaps kill another.( It is hard to train basic grunts to shoot to put out of action through injury, but, it is easy to train to shoot to kill) If 50 members of the mob were shot and killed, so what! If you offer to injury or kill another then no good crying about it after if the person gets it between the eyes first. Another point the US weapon most grunts carried has a small round that doesn't tend to kill very well, ask the US grunts how bad a killing weapon it was during certain conflicts, so where are the injured people, doesn't seem to be too many? let alone all them dead ones?

Show the dead if there are any, and make sure you show only the ones that were not shot in the back LOL

There is something not clear in the sequence of events from 11 to 14 April. Several posts so far mention that the rioting in Bangkok was not acceptable, so that the army had to intervene. However, the pictures I saw on television news ("normal" channels, not the D-station nor ASTV) show the following:

Saturday 11/04: ASEAN meeting canceled. Scuffles between the reds and the blue in Pattaya. The army deployed around the hotel of the summit are pushed around but not fighting.

Sunday 12/04: Reds block Bangkok streets (Din Daeng / Victory monument in particular). Some army deployed in Bangkok, but no fighting. Pictures of two APCs (armored personnel carriers) being taken by the reds; soldiers and police talking with the protesters. No rioting, no tyres burning, no buses burning.

Monday 13/04: Crackdown by the army begins early morning at the Din Daeng triangle. According to the Nation article in the OP, "troops were in almost complete control of the Din Daeng intersection after 6am", with 77 protesters injured. First pictures of the day are of the gas truck being pushed in front of the Din Daeng flats. Pictures of buses and tyres burning appear later during that day (monday).

Tuesday 14/04: Reds announce end of protests.

Getting to the point: The blocking of the roads in Bangkok was a nuisance, but can't be described as rioting until monday 13/04, after the beginning of the army crackdown in Din Daeng in the early morning. So that the rioting was a consequence, not a cause, of the crackdown.

Anyone cares to confirm or contradict?

Edited April 19, 2009 by peterandcat

[animatic]

When the red shirts :

Attacked and smashed the PM's car in Pattaya

and

Stormed the ASEAN meeting and broke the doors to get in

that was rioting. No question.

The main issue at that point was when was Abhisit going to

definitively exert control over the army and deal with it.

It finally happened and with less than Thaksin's hoped for carnage in the streets.

Edited April 19, 2009 by animatic

[xminator]

From The Nation:

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said Sunday that if there is a solid proof that military weapons were used when the army crack downed on red shirted protesters on the Songkran Day, his government is ready to consider the charges.

Something have to be lost in translation here. There is beyond any doubt that military used weapons, and as a consequence military weapons. Or is the M16 considered not military weapon? Maybe officers sidearm is enough? Both are shown used on multiple videos. There is bulletholes in various cars and buses. Also shown in multiple videos. For that statement to make sense there have to be a "on humans" somewhere.

[xminator]

When the red shirts :

Attacked and smashed the PM's car in Pattaya

and

Stormed the ASEAN meeting and broke the doors to get in

that was rioting. No question.

The main issue at that point was when was Abhisit going to

definitively exert control over the army and deal with it.

It finally happened and with less than Thaksin's hoped for carnage in the streets.

Lets forget the government sponsored blue shirts attack on unarmed redshirts the day before asean meeting where canceled. Also there where no armed protesters when they went trough security and into the resort. Of course there is a chance there would be no excess violence if the government didnt chose the confrontation line.

[samgrowth]

When the red shirts :

Attacked and smashed the PM's car in Pattaya

and

Stormed the ASEAN meeting and broke the doors to get in

that was rioting. No question.

The main issue at that point was when was Abhisit going to

definitively exert control over the army and deal with it.

It finally happened and with less than Thaksin's hoped for carnage in the streets.

Lets forget the government sponsored blue shirts attack on unarmed redshirts the day before asean meeting where canceled. Also there where no armed protesters when they went trough security and into the resort. Of course there is a chance there would be no excess violence if the government didnt chose the confrontation line.

What blue shirt? What yelloe shirt?

All we know is that Red shirt cause trouble, and all red shirts caputred on photos & videos should go to jail.

[brahmburgers]

When the red shirts :

Attacked and smashed the PM's car in Pattaya

and Stormed the ASEAN meeting and broke the doors to get in that was rioting. No question.

The main issue at that point was when was Abhisit going to definitively exert control over the army and deal with it. It finally happened and with less than Thaksin's hoped for carnage in the streets.

Lets forget the government sponsored blue shirts attack on unarmed redshirts the day before asean meeting where canceled. Also there where no armed protesters when they went trough security and into the resort. Of course there is a chance there would be no excess violence if the government didnt chose the confrontation line.

Xminator, you appear to be trying mightily to implicate the gov't in wrongdoing, re; the Songkran problems. Civil unrest and the ensuing responses aren't clear cut scenarios that unfold like a classroom study. They're often messy, quickly unfolding, and Pattaya/Bkk was no exception. Perhaps it was a 'fringe element' of the Red Shirts, but nevertheless, there were considerable numbers of young men who were hel_l bent on causing as much mayhem as possible. Some were breaking through cordons and shattering locked glass doors (Pattaya), some were making bombs and throwing them at authorities (Bkk). Some of the same Red Shirts (or their buddies) were trying to physically harm the PM and his close associates.

Anyone familiar with how these sorts of things can so quickly escalate to carnage, should be totally amazed that the Red Shirts came away relatively unscathed. Altogether, it's a testament to the kid glove treatment by authorities.

Anyone who wants to find fault with the gov't response, can make arguments with convoluted 'Monday Night Quarterbacking' highhandedness, but the fact remains: It's astonishing that scores of Red Shirts were not literally blown away by authorities.

[xminator]

When the red shirts :

Attacked and smashed the PM's car in Pattaya

and Stormed the ASEAN meeting and broke the doors to get in that was rioting. No question.

The main issue at that point was when was Abhisit going to definitively exert control over the army and deal with it. It finally happened and with less than Thaksin's hoped for carnage in the streets.

Lets forget the government sponsored blue shirts attack on unarmed redshirts the day before asean meeting where canceled. Also there where no armed protesters when they went trough security and into the resort. Of course there is a chance there would be no excess violence if the government didnt chose the confrontation line.

Xminator, you appear to be trying mightily to implicate the gov't in wrongdoing, re; the Songkran problems. Civil unrest and the ensuing responses aren't clear cut scenarios that unfold like a classroom study. They're often messy, quickly unfolding, and Pattaya/Bkk was no exception. Perhaps it was a 'fringe element' of the Red Shirts, but nevertheless, there were considerable numbers of young men who were hel_l bent on causing as much mayhem as possible. Some were breaking through cordons and shattering locked glass doors (Pattaya), some were making bombs and throwing them at authorities (Bkk). Some of the same Red Shirts (or their buddies) were trying to physically harm the PM and his close associates.

Anyone familiar with how these sorts of things can so quickly escalate to carnage, should be totally amazed that the Red Shirts came away relatively unscathed. Altogether, it's a testament to the kid glove treatment by authorities.

Anyone who wants to find fault with the gov't response, can make arguments with convoluted 'Monday Night Quarterbacking' highhandedness, but the fact remains: It's astonishing that scores of Red Shirts were not literally blown away by authorities.

Thats not the issue. Abhisit says NOONE killed. If one is proved killed he have been lying and covered up. Its a Nixon-sized-offence.

[bertlamar]

Thats not the issue. Abhisit says NOONE killed. If one is proved killed he have been lying and covered up. Its a Nixon-sized-offence.

So is one red shirt worth more or less than the student protestors of Samak (1 died) or the innocent in the war on drugs and in the south under the Thaksin years?

At this point, the reds killed 2/residents in one of the areas the reds invaded - I don't think anyone denies that - there certainly is no evidence of the 300 dead that some of the red shirts i know are claiming with complete conviction (friend was there, escaped etc etc) was 'covered up'

As for BBC's analysis, well known that Jon Head is relatively biased as many journalists are); the police DID clamp down on the PAD and with massive consequences...so when they went to the airport, Somchai was already fairly gunshy and had lost control of the armed forces; similar to what it looked like initially for ASEAN, when many felt that Anupong and obviously the police were already on the red shirts side; people who spend any decent amount of time with the police are well aware that while there are some in the middle, the majority of the police are undoubtably Thaksin supporters.

Edited April 20, 2009 by bertlamar

[phetpeter]

When the red shirts :

Attacked and smashed the PM's car in Pattaya

and Stormed the ASEAN meeting and broke the doors to get in that was rioting. No question.

The main issue at that point was when was Abhisit going to definitively exert control over the army and deal with it. It finally happened and with less than Thaksin's hoped for carnage in the streets.

Lets forget the government sponsored blue shirts attack on unarmed redshirts the day before asean meeting where canceled. Also there where no armed protesters when they went trough security and into the resort. Of course there is a chance there would be no excess violence if the government didnt chose the confrontation line.

Xminator, you appear to be trying mightily to implicate the gov't in wrongdoing, re; the Songkran problems. Civil unrest and the ensuing responses aren't clear cut scenarios that unfold like a classroom study. They're often messy, quickly unfolding, and Pattaya/Bkk was no exception. Perhaps it was a 'fringe element' of the Red Shirts, but nevertheless, there were considerable numbers of young men who were hel_l bent on causing as much mayhem as possible. Some were breaking through cordons and shattering locked glass doors (Pattaya), some were making bombs and throwing them at authorities (Bkk). Some of the same Red Shirts (or their buddies) were trying to physically harm the PM and his close associates.

Anyone familiar with how these sorts of things can so quickly escalate to carnage, should be totally amazed that the Red Shirts came away relatively unscathed. Altogether, it's a testament to the kid glove treatment by authorities.

Anyone who wants to find fault with the gov't response, can make arguments with convoluted 'Monday Night Quarterbacking' highhandedness, but the fact remains: It's astonishing that scores of Red Shirts were not literally blown away by authorities.

Thats not the issue. Abhisit says NOONE killed. If one is proved killed he have been lying and covered up. Its a Nixon-sized-offence.

Abhisit said as far as he is aware NOONE killed and if it is found out that one was killed by his forces, matters would be looked into!

[Koo82]

After many times the Peua Thai MP requested and it took more than 30 minutes to request, Parliament Vice-Chairman did not allow to show the video of the man in the picture, saying that Chairman Chai Chidchob did not allow. For a while Chai had to go into the meeting and repeated that the police would work on it so they don't allow to show the video.

The MP said there was nothing scary in the video. The man in the picture said he survived the shooting by soldiers at Din Daeng and claimed that there were dead reds.

[Koo82]

The clip showed a man lying alive on the street with his hands tied behind his back. An earlier scene showed soldiers kicking and attacking him.

The man wore jeans but was shirtless.

Mr Worawat said that he did know the man's fate.

He also cited and encounter with a man who was a red-shirt guard who claimed to have been beaten by soldiers and was unconscious for a day.

"He woke up in a military truck and was surrounded by about 10 bodies," Mr Worawat claimed.

The truck was heading to Lop Buri province, he said, adding that the man said he later jumped out of the truck and fled.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

[LawnGnome]

The clip showed a man lying alive on the street with his hands tied behind his back. An earlier scene showed soldiers kicking and attacking him.

The man wore jeans but was shirtless.

Mr Worawat said that he did know the man's fate.

He also cited and encounter with a man who was a red-shirt guard who claimed to have been beaten by soldiers and was unconscious for a day.

"He woke up in a military truck and was surrounded by about 10 bodies," Mr Worawat claimed.

The truck was heading to Lop Buri province, he said, adding that the man said he later jumped out of the truck and fled.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

And not a single person got a picture? Koo, if you drop your pants in Siam Paragon, you'll be on the the web in 2 minutes flat. But in the middle of a riot crackdown, with hundreds of journalists - not one picture. All of your other words are meaningless. Not one picture, not one body - all your claims as bullsh*t.

[hammered]

After many times the Peua Thai MP requested and it took more than 30 minutes to request, Parliament Vice-Chairman did not allow to show the video of the man in the picture, saying that Chairman Chai Chidchob did not allow. For a while Chai had to go into the meeting and repeated that the police would work on it so they don't allow to show the video.

The MP said there was nothing scary in the video. The man in the picture said he survived the shooting by soldiers at Din Daeng and claimed that there were dead reds.

A guy said this and that and the police will want corroborating evidence. This is the day wheb every phone has a camera. Where are the pictures of the death trucks and the dead bodies? This is why not even international media takes the claims seriously and even the red gurus and apostles have had to tone down their 300 dead to dozens dead to at least someone dead as they search for a martyr. In the meantime where are the red condemantions of their extremists who threatened to immolate a poor working class neigbourhood and if the local young men hadnt chased them off may well have consdiering the level of drunkeness in those around the LPG truck which oddly enough came from a firm owned by a Shin clan member and oddly enough all the Shin clan had done a runner before starting violence they hoped woudl either rock the government, lead to a coup in their favour or at least result in loads of dead red shirts they could have as a bunch of martyrs. Luckily none of it happeend and now there is a chance that people may talk if only the lunatics on both sides can be kept from their desires of more division and hetred and violence.

[ThNiner]

The clip showed a man lying alive on the street with his hands tied behind his back. An earlier scene showed soldiers kicking and attacking him.

The man wore jeans but was shirtless.

Mr Worawat said that he did know the man's fate.

He also cited and encounter with a man who was a red-shirt guard who claimed to have been beaten by soldiers and was unconscious for a day.

"He woke up in a military truck and was surrounded by about 10 bodies," Mr Worawat claimed.

The truck was heading to Lop Buri province, he said, adding that the man said he later jumped out of the truck and fled.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

Koo82, I'm really impressed with your compassion for another human being. But where was this same kind of compassion on Oct 7 of last year when about 11 civilians were killed, 6-700 people got injured...and not to mention several who permanently lost their limbs? All these people did was sitting outside the gov't house and verbally protesting.

Anyway, I hope this guy was not in the group that parked the gas trucks right in the Din Daeng residential areas without any care in the world that they could end up killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children.

[Koo82]

After the Song Kran in Blood, no red tv or radio can be heard. Only government tv could be watched.

First, Abhisit's people said soldiers were very careful not to use violence. So what is it about many reds being sent to hospitals?

They then said soldiers only shot to the air and used paper head bullets. Actually soldier rule towards protestors says shooting to the air is not allowed as it scares people. Why did the reds have pains in their bodies?

Abhisit's people said there was no death caused by soldiers. The reds said there are missing reds. By now Abhisit's people said they caught 19 reds on 13th April.

This photo was shown in the Parliament meeting on 22nd April 2009. A hole by blank bullet?

[ThNiner]

The clip showed a man lying alive on the street with his hands tied behind his back. An earlier scene showed soldiers kicking and attacking him.

The man wore jeans but was shirtless.

Mr Worawat said that he did know the man's fate.

He also cited and encounter with a man who was a red-shirt guard who claimed to have been beaten by soldiers and was unconscious for a day.

"He woke up in a military truck and was surrounded by about 10 bodies," Mr Worawat claimed.

The truck was heading to Lop Buri province, he said, adding that the man said he later jumped out of the truck and fled.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...protester-shown

And not a single person got a picture? Koo, if you drop your pants in Siam Paragon, you'll be on the the web in 2 minutes flat. But in the middle of a riot crackdown, with hundreds of journalists - not one picture. All of your other words are meaningless. Not one picture, not one body - all your claims as bullsh*t.

[Koo82]

Can anyone post a picture of 2 dead people at Nang Loeng? When Abhisit's government said there were 2 dead people, you believe. But when the reds said there are missing reds, you don't believe.

The reds need as many people as possible to join them. What's the point they killed people at Nang Loeng? It just doesn't make sense.

[sriracha john]

See? even the sign language translator is giving the PTP boys a salute good-bye...

[ThNiner]

After the Song Kran in Blood, no red tv or radio can be heard. Only government tv could be watched.

First, Abhisit's people said soldiers were very careful not to use violence. So what is it about many reds being sent to hospitals?

They then said soldiers only shot to the air and used paper head bullets. Actually soldier rule towards protestors says shooting to the air is not allowed as it scares people. Why did the reds have pains in their bodies?

Abhisit's people said there was no death caused by soldiers. The reds said there are missing reds. By now Abhisit's people said they caught 19 reds on 13th April.

This photo was shown in the Parliament meeting on 22nd April 2009. A hole by blank bullet?

Still where are the freaking corpses? The whole world is waiting for you guys to show us the dam_n dead bodies. Where are they? Where are their relatives? Are the relatives of these dead red shirts all dead as well, since we still haven't heard a thing from them? You can keep showing us millions of bullet holes, which no one knows how they were there (except you and your folks) or what they were. But we still don't have the dam_n dead bodies!!

Have we now reached the point where you can accuse anyone of being a murderer by just showing a picture of couple bullet holes?

[Koo82]

Koo82, I'm really impressed with your compassion for another human being. But where was this same kind of compassion on Oct 7 of last year when about 11 civilians were killed, 6-700 people got injured...and not to mention several who permanently lost their limbs? All these people did was sitting outside the gov't house and verbally protesting.

Anyway, I hope this guy was not in the group that parked the gas trucks right in the Din Daeng residential areas without any care in the world that they could end up killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children.

The reds protested in front of Prem's house after the 2006 coup and were fired with tear gas.

I'm surprised no reds that day lost limbs and no one died.

[LawnGnome]

Can anyone post a picture of 2 dead people at Nang Loeng? When Abhisit's government said there were 2 dead people, you believe. But when the reds said there are missing reds, you don't believe.

The reds need as many people as possible to join them. What's the point they killed people at Nang Loeng? It just doesn't make sense.

Ok Koo - I have been a big supporter of your right to claim what you want, and I still am, but honestly, I don't think that even you believe this nonsense anymore. You have just towed the party line so long, you don't know any other alternative.