The Child From hel_l

[chiangmaioldhand]

I know it's low season, and business is down so we have to pretend to be nice to the customers, (even UG confessed to it)  but surely there are limits?

    I had a couple in tonight with a two year old child that made Damien look like an angel. This kid screamed and threw tantrums for about an hour whilst mum struggled to control her and dad sat there oblivious to it all!! He sat there quietly sipping his Guinness, as if nothing was happening, whilst his child practically had convulsions. 

    As a firm believer that kids should be seen and not heard , I would normally have asked them to leave at the merest hint of a whimper from the child, but my missus has been on about being nice to the customers for weeks now. It's driving me mad. I had to ride it out until finally they paid and left.

    I have a sign to keep the 'riff-raff' out (that's only still there because she doesn't understand it) but what can I do to dissuade those people who can't control their child? Obviously, a blanket 'no kids' policy would be best but that won't wash with the missus.

   What would you have done? Bear in mind that infanticide is a crime in Thailand ( I think).

Edited April 30, 2009 by chiangmaioldhand

[Maejo Man]

The child was probably behaving like that because there was no free water...

[canincm]

Could you please refresh my memory... what kind of business do you have?

Would it have helped to ask the parents if the child needed some water or fresh air? At least they'd be more aware that you see the problem.

[snuggzzz]

Easy really, get your wife to take over, for some reason women don't hear those screams, they tickle it under the chin then give it WATER.......................

[TheWalkingMan]

...Obviously, a blanket 'no kids' policy would be best but that won't wash with the missus.

   What would you have done? Bear in mind that infanticide is a crime in Thailand ( I think).

Would it be possible to have a policy of having kids in only at certain times of the day? Or a babies promotion for certain times also? Do you monitor the amount of monies earned from people with kids? If it is insignificant, cut them out and strong arm wifey (not literally) into submission on this topic.

As long as the wife is not flexible on this, you will suffer... Can I interest you in a pair of earplugs?

[sbk]

I am a woman and I hear the screams.

I guess it would depend on how busy you are, if the child is really disturbing other customers you might want to point out to your wife that you will lose business as people leave early because they don't want to hear this kid scream. You may lose repeat business if these people eat at your place regularly (I am assuming you have a restaurant).

As for the parents, well. I have no advice. Their kid could have some condition that causes it to scream, or it could just be a spoiled little brat, who knows? A quiet, "I am afraid you are disturbing the rest of the customers" might have some effect but if the mother is going it alone with a husband who doesn't give a toss, then I wouldn't hold out much hope.

We had some people who came to our place, let their kids run wild, pulling flowers off of plants etc. I kept giving the parents significant looks but, like most people who allow their children to behave badly, it was lost on them. Finally, they started in on the Oleander tree and I told the parents they might want to call their kids off as all parts of the plant were poisonous. They called their kids back into the restaurant and things quieted down after that. Guess they figured out that maybe Thailand wasn't the safest place to let their kids run riot.

[Ulysses G.]

It is difficult to know what to do in a restaurant. If the people have ordered already or are eating, it is not easy to throw them out, but you do have to think about other customers.

When a kid goes crazy and starts wrecking my books, I will point it out to the parent if they are just ignoring the whole thing. They usually just leave after that and no more problem.

[harrry]

I thought sbk would bring the Closed sign out.

Seriously kids are a part of life but that does not mean they can get away with everything. Sometimes you might just have to swallow the loss and ask the people to leave if they cannot control the situation. If you do however it may mean taking a loss from that customer as it may not be reasonable to charge them if you are not willling to provide them with the environment they would have paid for.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Restaurants in this country tend to have plenty staff who will fuss over kids and keep them entertained.

Mine is a model child when among people she doesn't know and enjoys it when people play with her. (At home she turns into the Return of Chucky's Bride II but that's another matter. )

I have to say we do (subconsciously?) gravitate towards places with staff who like kids.

Number #1 bar is a great example, so is/was Queen Victoria though haven't been there in ages, and the Duke's is good too actually.

(Only in Thailand where you pick a bar with plenty hookers because they're good with kids. )

It changes of course because often it depends on one or two staff members who happen to like kids. As for the OP, having a toy of some kind around does wonders sometimes. Or a 'present', some super cheapo toy that kids unwrap. Kids dig that. (Thai Airways does this for example, that's another environment where it's worth having a 10 baht toy around if it means kids don't scream their little heads off) And Dentaland the dentist does it.. Kids know they're going to get some 2 baht plastic ring or bracelet or whatever after treatment so they behave VERY well.

Edited May 1, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[earlofwindermere]

We have two young kids so this is very relevant to me. If we take the kids out to eat, we usually try to go between 5-6pm which is usually before "the adults" arrive. I think that most parents are generally aware when their kids are loud and try to keep them quiet with colouring sheets, books etc. Of course, there are a few who don't. However; there are a few adults in restaurants that are equally as loud and obnoxious. Several times, one of my kids has started screaming. Depending on the number of patrons, we have packed up and left several times.

If the parents are trying to keep the kids quiet, my opinion is to not say anything. Restaurants could be pro-active and some are great at it. Here are a few things that I have seen in Chiang Mai that really help....

1. Have colouring sheets.

2. Have a fish tank (my kids go in a trance watching it)

3. Seat the families near the doors (so that parents can quickly take them out the door if they start screaming). In the least, put them away from the other older guests.

4. Have a small toy section (Pizzamania has a small basket of toys and it shuts my son up for the entire meal).

5. Have a swing set outside (if you have space).

6. SERVE THE KIDS' FOOD FIRST (Most restaurants seem to serve their food last which I never understood).

7. Serve drinks in plastic cups. (This is not really to keep them quiet but I don't understand why a waitress would ever hand a 2 year old a glass drink. They're asking for trouble).

In saying all of this, there are many families who do not follow the philosophy that "children should be seen but not heard." By saying this, I would guess that you're over 50. Many families and schools (even in Chiang Mai) believe that forcing kids to keep quiet is the wrong thing to do. There's a variety of philosophies as to why which I don't plan to explain here.

In any case, trying to balance both groups will never be simple.

[venturalaw]

    I have a sign to keep the 'riff-raff' out (that's only still there because she doesn't understand it) but what can I do to dissuade those people who can't control their child? Obviously, a blanket 'no kids' policy would be best but that won't wash with the missus.

   What would you have done? Bear in mind that infanticide is a crime in Thailand ( I think).

Sorry for your plight, but you really made me laugh. I shared this with my Thai wife, and she laughed too offering to translate your 'riff-raff' sign for your wife.

Seriously, it has always disturbed me as a paying customer for 1. Parents with children who are unruly that fail to control them, and 2. for an establishment to allow the disturbance to continue. That being said, if I were in your situation, and if I had other customers in my place trying to enjoy their food/beverages at the time, I would have asked the problem customers, "for the sake of the other customers", to please either control their little gift from God, or leave.

Edited May 1, 2009 by venturalaw

[chiangmaioldhand]

    I have a sign to keep the 'riff-raff' out (that's only still there because she doesn't understand it) but what can I do to dissuade those people who can't control their child? Obviously, a blanket 'no kids' policy would be best but that won't wash with the missus.

   What would you have done? Bear in mind that infanticide is a crime in Thailand ( I think).

Sorry for your plight, but you really made me laugh. I shared this with my Thai wife, and she laughed too offering to translate your 'riff-raff' sign for your wife.

Seriously, it has always disturbed me as a paying customer for 1. Parents with children who are unruly that fail to control them, and 2. for an establishment to allow the disturbance to continue. That being said, if I were in your situation, and if I had other customers in my place trying to enjoy their food/beverages at the time, I would have asked the problem customers, "for the sake of the other customers", to please either control their little gift from God, or leave.

I've had one idea. What about a sign with a picture of rope, gags and a straight-jacket that says 'If you can't control your child, we can' ? That would work wouldn't it?

[phaethon]

Have your chef stand by the kitchen door with a cleaver.

Start a conversation with the parents about the high price of pork...

[harrry]

I've had one idea. What about a sign with a picture of rope, gags and a straight-jacket that says 'If you can't control your child, we can' ? That would work wouldn't it?

May subject the waitresses to off menu requests.

[Jungian]

I think I may have been obnoxious in your pub a few times over the years but you were never rude to my face anyway, just wrote me off as had to much real beer for a change. In any event I am a firm believer in not bringing children to pubs if nothing else not past lunch time, seriously I think most would agree with me that a pub is no place for a child brat or otherwise and quite frankly I think my missus would kill me if I brought my children to the pub while I pooped off for a pint.

[JuniorExPat]

I think I may have been obnoxious in your pub a few times over the years but you were never rude to my face anyway, just wrote me off as had to much real beer for a change. In any event I am a firm believer in not bringing children to pubs if nothing else not past lunch time, seriously I think most would agree with me that a pub is no place for a child brat or otherwise and quite frankly I think my missus would kill me if I brought my children to the pub while I pooped off for a pint.

I'm pretty sure that pooping at the bar is going to get you into more trouble than bringing an unruly child to the pub.

JxP

[chiangmaioldhand]

I think I may have been obnoxious in your pub a few times over the years but you were never rude to my face anyway, just wrote me off as had to much real beer for a change. In any event I am a firm believer in not bringing children to pubs if nothing else not past lunch time, seriously I think most would agree with me that a pub is no place for a child brat or otherwise and quite frankly I think my missus would kill me if I brought my children to the pub while I pooped off for a pint.

Sunds like you've got the wrong place.

She's probably afraid of you forgetting where you left them

[Jungian]

You did however accuse my wife of being Chinese for asking for a discount... Anyway I admire your honesty and speaking your mind political correctness annoys me.

[chiangmaioldhand]

Have your chef stand by the kitchen door with a cleaver.

Start a conversation with the parents about the high price of pork...

sounds like the Monty Python sketch where the guy complains about the dirty glass. John Cleese (as the chef) comes out with a meat cleaver and the waiter restrains him saying 

'No Mongo , you know the  rules - Never kill a customer'

If it's re-assuring to any of the nervous types out there, you might like to know ...we have the exact same policy.

I'm quite proud to say that over all these years, we have never, knowingly, killed a customer.

And don't get me wrong about kids - I love them, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

Edited May 1, 2009 by chiangmaioldhand

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun ChiangMaiOldHand,

An expat friend of mine here, in country for over twenty five years, refers to a certain class of out-of-control Thai boy-brats as "Ronald Mcdonalds," but I don't know why.

Too bad getting Socrates comments translated into Thai probably would do nothing but waste space :

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."

regards, ~o:37;

[chiangmaioldhand]

Could you please refresh my memory... what kind of business do you have?

Would it have helped to ask the parents if the child needed some water or fresh air? At least they'd be more aware that you see the problem.

I was going to suggest that they should give her water, because there is a good mark-up on that, but I was afraid of not being able to resist my over-powering desire of strangulation. As I said already, we do have a policy of not killing the customers and unfortunately that does extend to their offspring.

[tigerbeer]

To the OP, I still don't know where your establishment is but do kindly let me (us) know so that I never bring my kids there. Would not want anyone thinking bad about my kids while we dine there. Especially the owners! We'll give our business to someone else more happily.

[chiangmaioldhand]

To the OP, I still don't know where your establishment is but do kindly let me (us) know so that I never bring my kids there. Would not want anyone thinking bad about my kids while we dine there. Especially the owners! We'll give our business to someone else more happily.

I'm more than sure that your kids would be little angels (assuming they take after their mother) and as such you would all be more than welcome.

 Unfortunately, forum rules prevent me from disclosing the identity of my establishment - it would be considered as 'advertising', I'm lead to believe.

I'm not sure if it is allowed (check the rules) , but maybe if you asked me some questions about the location I may be able to say whether you are 'warm' or 'cold', providing I stop when you are within 100 metres, say. That may work.

Edited May 1, 2009 by chiangmaioldhand

[tigerbeer]

To the OP, I still don't know where your establishment is but do kindly let me (us) know so that I never bring my kids there. Would not want anyone thinking bad about my kids while we dine there. Especially the owners! We'll give our business to someone else more happily.

I'm more than sure that your kids would be little angels (assuming they take after their mother) and as such you would all be more than welcome.

 Unfortunately, forum rules prevent me from disclosing the identity of my establishment - it would be considered as 'advertising', I'm lead to believe.

You would have gotten better advice in THIS FORUM.

btw i'll pass on the invitation. thank you.

[chiangmaioldhand]

To the OP, I still don't know where your establishment is but do kindly let me (us) know so that I never bring my kids there. Would not want anyone thinking bad about my kids while we dine there. Especially the owners! We'll give our business to someone else more happily.

I'm more than sure that your kids would be little angels (assuming they take after their mother) and as such you would all be more than welcome.

 Unfortunately, forum rules prevent me from disclosing the identity of my establishment - it would be considered as 'advertising', I'm lead to believe.

You would have gotten better advice in THIS FORUM.

btw I'll pass on the invitation. thank you.

That would be nice, but please do remember that we have a strict 'no riff-raff' policy. Even in these difficult times, we still have to maintain standards. I'm sure you understand.

[NancyL]

In a former life, hubby and I ran a nursery/garden center and had a few problems with customers' out-of-control kids. One group of unsupervised siblings went into a closed greenhouse clearly marked "staff only", started messing with the equipment and managed to turn off a valve controlling the mist propagation system for $100,000 of plants. Of course we didn't discover it until the family had left and didn't have direct proof they'd done it, but they were the only ones in that greenhouse during the period when the valve was turned off. Of course, even if we'd had "proof", what was the point in confronting the parents? The damage was done and there was no way they would have paid for it.

Another time an unsupervised child suffered a mild injury at the nursery and despite my hubby giving Mom a car load of free plants, she still sued us. Eventually our insurance company settled out-of-court for something like $6000 and our insurance rates went up. We said we wanted to contest the suit, but the insurance company said that would have cost more than the settlement.

After these two events, we became more "proactive" about unsupervised kids. We had a multi-acre operation and there were no excess staff, like you have here in Thailand. We posted prominent signs about how parents were responsible for watching their own kids; we didn't have staff available and for the safety of the kids, parents with unsupervised kids would be asked to leave. We did that a time or two, also (making sure they took the kids with them). We also posted a message on our website, pointing out that most kids find nursery/garden center visits pretty boring.

We did have some people get really irate about this policy, telling us they'd never shop at a place where their kids aren't welcome. Actually, we loved well-behaved kids, especially if they seemed interested in the plants. But, we had many more customers tells us how much they admired our courage and appreciated spending time in a place without out-of-control kids. We heard many horror stories from customers of how their shopping experiences at other places had been ruined by out-of-control kids.

So to the OP -- unless your business specifically targets kids or families, I'd suggest you post a well worded sign about how parents are responsible for controlling their children for the sake of their safety. It will prevent the kids from being killed by other customers who are having their shopping/dining/drinking experience ruined.

Edited May 1, 2009 by NancyL

[getgoin]

With being out in public comes a certain amount of responsibility. Being in a restaurant is a place for a child to learn manners. Screaming children should not be out in public and parents should keep their children in control. To ignore this is to be disrespectful of others and of the establishment.

[gpdjohn]

With being out in public comes a certain amount of responsibility. Being in a restaurant is a place for a child to learn manners. Screaming children should not be out in public and parents should keep their children in control. To ignore this is to be disrespectful of others and of the establishment.

I agree.

I have witnessed the "No Riff Raff" sign at the noted establishment, right in the front, for all to see. One of the first things I noticed ( and was getting ready to leave but deemed myself worthy enough not to be "riff raff")

Me-

I would take the child by the short hairs and pitch 'em over your retainer wall only so that he would be kidnapped by the frog ladies ( one of the prettiest I have ever seen was at this establishment, couldn't keep my old perv eyes off of 'er..a beauty she was ) thus ending your customers torment, your torment and no doubt the parents torment as well.

Or maybe a few short jabs to the chin quite quickly..just a kid, you just don't have to bob and weave as much. ( and if they are younger than 10, it makes your right cross look much more impressive! )

[tigerbeer]

That would be nice, but please do remember that we have a strict 'no riff-raff' policy. Even in these difficult times, we still have to maintain standards. I'm sure you understand.

good on you. hope you have a flourishing business like hundreds of others who come here with the same sort of entrepreneurial knowledge. then again you maintain "standards" so I am sure your place is packed with adults and good behaving children who don't come from hel_l.

[bino]

Instead of the "No Riff Raff" sign, how about something along the lines of:

"Unattended and misbehaving children will be given an espresso and a free puppy."