Falang Pricing At The Land Office

[paperwerks]

The land office for Bangkok Prakanong on Sri Na Karin refused to register an usufruct for me today . The big boss understood that the law says that my girlfriend can give this to me but that he was refusing for the good of Thailand despite what the law said.

The &%^% boss gave a talk to my girlfriend explaining that she could go to jail for being a front person for a falang trying to do business here and that I was trying to rip her off. He said that if I was a Thai person it would be no problem but falang are trying to use Thai people now as fronts for business. He was rude also which is part of his schtick.

This is for a rental condo that I paid for and put in her name because I want her to have it when I die, but if she dies I don't want her mother to get it.

When I tried to ask some questions he said that it is not his job to explain to falangs. His job was to explain to Thai people. He said he was experienced with Usufructs from many falang in pattaya (=he knows how to extort from falang and resistance is futile)

He said the only way to that he would do it is if he wrote up some B.S. story that I was paying her 300,000 baht for in cash today in exchange for the usufruct and he would only give it for 30 years not life. He wrote it up.

This B.S. story would protect my girlfriend from the police arresting her he said and also by the way he would have to charge 4500 baht transaction tax based on the 300,000 fake payment.

Basically, what he was saying is that he refuse to do his job unless I paid the Land Office a 4500 baht "special falang tax"

In the end, paying this <deleted> 4500 baht was quicker and cheaper than calling my lawyer or switching the chanote into my name. I should have come back and fought it with a lawyer but knowing my anger was about to cause a big blowup I just paid because it got the job done. This land office is really bad and have had problems in there before with the pressure to pay cash money for vip quick service.

Falangs beware: registering an Usufruct at this land office (Next to Seri Center) requires payment of Falang Special Tax. As usual TIT

[thaiwanderer]

you want to circumvent / bend the rules but moan when it costs you a little grease?

[Crossy]

you want to circumvent / bend the rules but moan when it costs you a little grease?

I don't think our OP was attempting to bend or circumvent anything, just get a perfectly legal usufruct to protect his / his GFs asset.

That said I don't believe he was using the correct vehicle, a will leaving the condo to him would likely have been an easier (and probably cheaper) means to achieve the desired effect.

With his lease/usufruct his mother in law still gets the condo should the GF die, he just gets to live there until he does.

[chiangmaibruce]

I don't think our OP was attempting to bend or circumvent anything, just get a perfectly legal usufruct to protect his / his GFs asset.

Correct, I don't see how he was bending the rules at all.

That said I don't believe he was using the correct vehicle, a will leaving the condo to him would likely have been an easier (and probably cheaper) means to achieve the desired effect.

Except a Will could be changed the next day - without his knowledge, whereas a usufruct can't

PS: But perhaps you meant to write "a Will leaving the condo to her", in which case you're correct - IF he had put the condo in his name... and it's not clear why he didn't follow that approach (?)

Edited May 5, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[RusticCharm]

This is for a rental condo that I paid for and put in her name because I want her to have it when I die

Jesus! When will they ever learn?

In the end, paying this <deleted> 4500 baht was quicker and cheaper

Yep. You complain about corruption and then add to it. Right! 

[Crossy]

PS: But perhaps you meant to write "a Will leaving the condo to her", in which case you're correct - IF he had put the condo in his name... and it's not clear why he didn't follow that approach (?)

Actually I didn't think of it that way, seems like an eminently sensible solution

[thaiwanderer]

Well, presumably as it was allegedly a gift from him to his girlfriend in the first place rather than her being his nominee she is perfectly free to do with the condo as she wishes and she receives the rent from it?

Yet the OP says HE wants his girlfriend to have it when HE dies - surely she has it already, right?

Also the OP says HE does not want her mother to get it? But its not his to have a view on this anyway, is it?

Actually the tax probably protects him a little more than if the usufuct had merely been given for free. Was there a little fat on that tax? maybe, who cares - the 'competent offical' could have just refused to register the usufruct and the OP could make noise about 'legal rights' and have a little investigation into who was really the beneficial owner of the condo if he wished to be so indignant - wonder if that would stand up to the scrutiny and holier than thou approach the OP wishes to take on the official?

Its one thing to complain about corruption (if indeed there is any here) but another to do so with less than clean hands yourself.

(As others have indicated his wishes could have been better met via different structures anyway.)

[paperwerks]

you want to circumvent / bend the rules but moan when it costs you a little grease?

I don't think our OP was attempting to bend or circumvent anything, just get a perfectly legal usufruct to protect his / his GFs asset.

That said I don't believe he was using the correct vehicle, a will leaving the condo to him would likely have been an easier (and probably cheaper) means to achieve the desired effect.

With his lease/usufruct his mother in law still gets the condo should the GF die, he just gets to live there until he does.

Yes, I think you are correct. A Will might have been a better and easier choice. I thought about that before and thought the usufruct would be cheaper (100 baht) and easier (don't have to bother with drafting language of a proper will) but I was wrong. When I was at the land office and got hit with the 4500 falang fee I forgot about the Will option.

The thing that especially got me upset was the fact that the boss at the land office specifically said that if I was Thai it would cost nothing. For falang it cost 4500 baht. He really talked bad about falangs and has a big chip on his shoulder like we just come here to rip of Thais..

Part of the reason I needed to do this is that my girlfriend does have serious health problems.

[paperwerks]

""PS: But perhaps you meant to write "a Will leaving the condo to her", in which case you're correct - IF he had put the condo in his name... and it's not clear why he didn't follow that approach (?)""

Yes, there is a specific reason why I don't want to have the condo in my name. If I die I want my girlfriend to get it. A Will from me might not achieve that. My sister in the USA is a pathological gold digger (even to the point of having our elderly mother sign over all her assets while my mother had dementia - The Department of Elder Affairs in our home State investigated and stepped in to undo this)

If my will were to be contested (and it will be) I do not want my girlfriend to have to go up against a high powered lawyer from the USA. She is afraid of lawyers, would be outmatched and will not fight and will just quit because it would be too upsetting for her. This way the chanote is already in her name.

[paperwerks]

""Yep. You complain about corruption and then add to it. Right!""

Yes, there is hipocracy on my part as I signed the fake document that the land office drafted and demanded I sign.

But I will add that it was done under duress and extortion as well.

Those that take a firm moral stand in Thailand and do the proper thing such as write signed letters to the editor and sue the land office and the official there to seek justice often have unfortunate "accidents" happen to them.

I am not used to "just shut up and pay" when being extorted by government officials and police but that is the rational thing to do here so I do it. It is something that one has to compromise his beliefs if one wants to live here and not make waves.

[thaiwanderer]

you were not under duress when you bought it for your girlfriend whilst wanting to retain some control and or benefit?

[djlest]

Your GF gets it should you DIE?

Man! Your crazy - Dont give her ideas... this is BKK and for just a few thousand you could be!

You can own a condo - use what few rights we actually have

and if you really love her that much... write a last will of testament instead...

[DavidWenman]

knows how to extort from falang and resistance is futile)

He said the only way to that he would do it is if he wrote up some B.S. story that I was paying her 300,000 baht for in cash today in exchange for the usufruct and he would only give it for 30 years not life. He wrote it up.

This B.S. story would protect my girlfriend from the police arresting her he said and also by the way he would have to charge 4500 baht transaction tax based on the 300,000 fake payment.

Basically, what he was saying is that he refuse to do his job unless I paid the Land Office a 4500 baht "special falang tax"

In the end, paying this <deleted> 4500 baht was quicker and cheaper than calling my lawyer or switching the chanote into my name. I should have come back and fought it with a lawyer but knowing my anger was about to cause a big blowup I just paid because it got the job done. This land office is really bad and have had problems in there before with the pressure to pay cash money for vip quick service.

Falangs beware: registering an Usufruct at this land office (Next to Seri Center) requires payment of Falang Special Tax. As usual TIT

We tried to register a usufruct in Trang and we were asked for 500,000 baht by the police and the land office. They asked for this money as soon as the land had been transfered into our legal advisers name. We refused and the land remains in our legal advisers name. By the way the legal adviser works for the Chiang Mai EX-pat club- so beware!

[singa-traz]

From a sponsor website: google usefruct thailand tax

The usufruct would be registered with a 1.5% tax of the value of the benefit( If you are not married to a Thai wife, if you are, the tax is less than 100 Baht).

So, 4,500 THB would be that Tax. (1.5% of 300,000.00 THB).

[bojo]

I paid 100b to register a usufruct 2 years ago at the office in Chiang Mai (mae rim road).

Regards Bojo

[Pib]

My cost in Bangkok about a year ago to register our single family home usufruct was the standard approx 75 Baht fee. But when we (the wife and I) first tried to register it on a Monday we ran into many brick walls...after an hour or so of discussions with several land officers (the why's and why not's of registering the usufruct) we where told to come back Thursday and try again. We came back on Thursday and everyone (same land officers) was all smiles and we were able to register the usufruct...took about an hour to register the usufruct...and no tea money was involved. Guess Monday was just a bad day for everyone.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Pib

[stgrhe]

I, well actually my solicitor using POAs, last month registered a usufrut at the Pranburi land office and paid only the official registration fee of 75 baht.

[INDI12]

I wonder some head in the office was goingto be gone on that Thursday. ANd it was done while that person was away? While the normal(honest) Thai workers in the office knew your were going to get ripped if you did it the day you went in??? Just a thought???

[george]

40 baht is the official stamp fee to register a usufruct.

[longball53098]

Here in Banchang the Land Officer will in no way do a usufruct and if you want to do a lease it requires a local lawyer to be involved to draw up the contract. Does this sound fishy or what?

Edited July 29, 2009 by longball53098

[stgrhe]

Here in Banchang the Land Officer will in no way do a usufruct and if you want to do a lease it requires a local lawyer to be involved to draw up the contract. Does this sound fishy or what?

I have heard that from others living in Ban Chang. Do you know if anyone has ever tried to appeal to the Land Department in Bangkok to try to overrule Ban Chang's decision?

[longball53098]

I am not aware of anyone that has managed to get a usufruct here but then I don't get out much.