Norwegian Woman And American Woman Die Of Unknown Causes on Koh Phi Phi

[unforgiven]

Can't believe what I read! They can tell by a tiny piece of skin or hear they find in a antiquity grave, everything about that person, and even make a clone!!! And to day, in 2009, they can't tell us what cause this womens dead??? COME ON.... I hope that the relatives have the strength to push for an answer. This is to importent to know what happend, and don't shove it under the carpet!!!

I live in the area, but I will never visit Phi-Phi until I have a truthful answer to this.

could it be the air conditioning killed them the way it did vitos gerilitiuos(the tennis star)

[cmdream]

From Phuket Gazette.

Saturday, June 13, 2009

Phi Phi tourist deaths remain a mystery, autopsies inconclusive

The Royal Thai Police Institute of Forensic Medicine in Bangkok has concluded its examination of tissue samples from two young women who died mysteriously on Koh Phi Phi early last month.

The evidence is inconclusive.

Deputy chief of Krabi Public Health Office Dr Buncha Kahkhong said that the autopsies failed to turn up anything that could have caused the deaths of American Jill St Onge and Norwegian Julie Bergheim.

There were no toxic chemicals found in the blood, bodily fluids and other tissues of the women, Dr Buncha said.

The two young women died within hours of each other in Phi Phi Island Hospital after staying in adjacent rooms in the island's Laleena Guesthouse.

For our previous reports on the deaths, click here and here and here.

Dr Buncha said the tests ruled out food poisoning, contradicting a statement made by Krabi Provincial Police Commander Pasin Nokasul on May 25.

"I can say it definitely wasn't food poisoning," Dr Buncha said. "From the autopsy and blood tests and the questioning of witnesses it's been established that the women ate different food prior to their deaths."

Dr Buncha added that if this were a case of food poisoning, more people would likely have fallen ill too.

The investigation would now need to focus on environmental factors, Dr Buncha said. However, examination of both the air conditioning unit and the water supply at Laleena guesthouse had not revealed anything out of the ordinary, he added.

"The investigation will also focus on the personal histories of the women," Dr Buncha said. "Although the autopsies have been inconclusive, we have all the information recorded now and it will be useful going forward."

"This is looking like some freak accident. With cases like this, sometimes you never find the cause. But we're very worried about it because foreign tourists died. Krabi Public Health Office will co-operate with any teams from the US and Norway who want to come and investigate. We'll share all our information with them," Dr Buncha said.

"It's in our interests to co-operate, because if we find the cause of the deaths we can make sure it never happens again," he added.

– Khunakorn Terdkiatkhachorn & Dan Waites

Inconclusive ???? <deleted>. Something is very wrong here.

[Nam Plah]

"This is looking like some freak accident"

Uhhhh, yeah right...

Inconclusive, except having explicitly ruling out food poisoning or toxic substances.

Well those are conclusions.

Early reports stated initial findings of "Microbes in the blood" of the two victims however now there is no mention of any other type of disease pathogens except the absence of microorganisms associated with "food poisoning".

How about looking at other diseases.

Pneumonia is one that fits all the symptoms.

• Aspiration pneumonia
  

Aspiration pneumonia (or aspiration pneumonitis) is caused by aspirating foreign objects which are usually oral or gastric contents, either while eating, or after reflux or vomiting which results in bronchopneumonia. The resulting lung inflammation is not an infection but can contribute to one, since the material aspirated may contain anaerobic bacteria or other unusual causes of pneumonia. Aspiration is a leading cause of death among hospital and nursing home patients, since they often cannot adequately protect their airways and may have otherwise impaired defenses.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_disease

Symptoms of pneumonia need immediate medical evaluation. Physical examination by a health care provider may reveal fever or sometimes low body temperature, an increased respiratory rate, low blood pressure, a high heart rate, or a low oxygen saturation, which is the amount of oxygen in the blood as indicated by either pulse oximetry or blood gas analysis. People who are struggling to breathe, who are confused, or who have cyanosis (blue-tinged skin) require immediate attention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia

[CFIT]

^

Well, by all reports they certainly were vomiting enough to have gotten some in the lungs.

What is missing from this investigation is the two who survived- there has been no official statement on any interviews with them.

Death by " ..freak accident, " B*LLSH*T !

And what of the German man in Phuket who died on the way to hospital , vomiting ?

Here's another theory : http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/sarin/basics/facts.asp

This nasty compound fits in with everything we know- could a group be testing it out , is Thailands "Southern problem" going to be coming to the Andaman region ?

Facts About Sarin

What sarin is

• Sarin is a human-made chemical warfare agent classified as a nerve agent. Nerve agents are the most toxic and rapidly acting of the known chemical warfare agents. They are similar to certain kinds of pesticides (insect killers) called organophosphates in terms of how they work and what kind of harmful effects they cause. However, nerve agents are much more potent than organophosphate pesticides.
  
• Sarin originally was developed in 1938 in Germany as a pesticide.
  
• Sarin is a clear, colorless, and tasteless liquid that has no odor in its pure form. However, sarin can evaporate into a vapor (gas) and spread into the environment.
  
• Sarin is also known as GB.
  

Where Sarin is found and how it is used

• Sarin and other nerve agents may have been used in chemical warfare during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s.
  
• Sarin was used in two terrorist attacks in Japan in 1994 and 1995.
  
• Sarin is not found naturally in the environment.
  

How people can be exposed to sarin

• Following release of sarin into the air, people can be exposed through skin contact or eye contact. They can also be exposed by breathing air that contains sarin.
  
• Sarin mixes easily with water, so it could be used to poison water. Following release of sarin into water, people can be exposed by touching or drinking water that contains sarin.
  
• Following contamination of food with sarin, people can be exposed by eating the contaminated food.
  
• A person's clothing can release sarin for about 30 minutes after it has come in contact with sarin vapor, which can lead to exposure of other people.
  
• Because sarin breaks down slowly in the body, people who are repeatedly exposed to sarin may suffer more harmful health effects.
  
• Because sarin vapor is heavier than air, it will sink to low-lying areas and create a greater exposure hazard there.
  

How sarin works

• The extent of poisoning caused by sarin depends on the amount of sarin to which a person was exposed, how the person was exposed, and the length of time of the exposure.
  
• Symptoms will appear within a few seconds after exposure to the vapor form of sarin and within a few minutes up to 18 hours after exposure to the liquid form.
  
• All the nerve agents cause their toxic effects by preventing the proper operation of the chemical that acts as the body's "off switch" for glands and muscles. Without an "off switch," the glands and muscles are constantly being stimulated. They may tire and no longer be able to sustain breathing function.
  
• Sarin is the most volatile of the nerve agents, which means that it can easily and quickly evaporate from a liquid into a vapor and spread into the environment. People can be exposed to the vapor even if they do not come in contact with the liquid form of sarin.
  
• Because it evaporates so quickly, sarin presents an immediate but short-lived threat.
  

Immediate signs and symptoms of Sarin exposure

• People may not know that they were exposed because it has no odor.
  
• People exposed to a low or moderate dose of Sarin by breathing contaminated air, eating contaminated food, drinking contaminated water, or touching contaminated surfaces may experience some or all of the following symptoms within seconds to hours of exposure:
  • Runny nose
    
  • Watery eyes
    
  • Small, pinpoint pupils
    
  • Eye pain
    
  • Blurred vision
    
  • Drooling and excessive sweating
    
  • Cough
    
  • Chest tightness
    
  • Rapid breathing
    
  • Diarrhea
    
  • Increased urination
    
  • Confusion
    
  • Drowsiness
    
  • Weakness
    
  • Headache
    
  • Nausea, vomiting, and/or abdominal pain
    
  • Slow or fast heart rate
    
  • Low or high blood pressure
    

  [*] Even a small drop of sarin on the skin can cause sweating and muscle twitching where sarin touched the skin.

  [*] Exposure to large doses of sarin by any route may result in the following harmful health effects:

  • Loss of consciousness
    
  • Convulsions
    
  • Paralysis
    
  • Respiratory failure possibly leading to death
    

  [*] Showing these signs and symptoms does not necessarily mean that a person has been exposed to sarin.

What the long-term health effects are

Mild or moderately exposed people usually recover completely. Severely exposed people are not likely to survive. Unlike some organophosphate pesticides, nerve agents have not been associated with neurological problems lasting more than 1 to 2 weeks after the exposure.

How people can protect themselves, and what they should do if they are exposed to sarin

• Recovery from sarin exposure is possible with treatment, but the antidotes available must be used quickly to be effective. Therefore, the best thing to do is avoid exposure:
  • Leave the area where the sarin was released and get to fresh air. Quickly moving to an area where fresh air is available is highly effective in reducing the possibility of death from exposure to sarin vapor.
    • If the sarin release was outdoors, move away from the area where the sarin was released.
      
    • Go to the highest ground possible, because sarin is heavier than air and will sink to low-lying areas.
      
    • If the sarin release was indoors, get out of the building.
      

  [*] If people think they may have been exposed, they should remove their clothing, rapidly wash their entire body with soap and water, and get medical care as quickly as possible.

  [*] Removing and disposing of clothing:

  • Quickly take off clothing that has liquid sarin on it. Any clothing that has to be pulled over the head should be cut off the body instead of pulled over the head. If possible, seal the clothing in a plastic bag. Then seal the first plastic bag in a second plastic bag. Removing and sealing the clothing in this way will help protect people from any chemicals that might be on their clothes.
    
  • If clothes were placed in plastic bags, inform either the local or state health department or emergency personnel upon their arrival. Do not handle the plastic bags.
    
  • If helping other people remove their clothing, try to avoid touching any contaminated areas, and remove the clothing as quickly as possible.
    

  [*] Washing the body:

  • As quickly as possible, wash any liquid sarin from the skin with large amounts of soap and water. Washing with soap and water will help protect people from any chemicals on their bodies.
    
  • Rinse the eyes with plain water for 10 to 15 minutes if they are burning or if vision is blurred.
    

  [*] If sarin has been swallowed, do not induce vomiting or give fluids to drink.

  [*]Seek medical attention immediately. Dial 911 and explain what has happened.

How Sarin exposure is treated

Treatment consists of removing sarin from the body as soon as possible and providing supportive medical care in a hospital setting. Antidotes are available forSarin. They are most useful if given as soon as possible after exposure.

Edited June 14, 2009 by CFIT

[Briggsy]

I do hope toxicology tests and autopsies are carried out by someone other than those under the authority of the Thai Police. To release a report saying "we couldn't find anything" is pathetic in the extreme.

2 healthy young people died and at least 2 more were severely ill. There will be information regarding primary cause of death at the very least. (e.g. asphyxiation or myocardial infarction etc.) This more and more looks like incompetence or worse.

[CFIT]

I do hope toxicology tests and autopsies are carried out by someone other than those under the authority of the Thai Police. To release a report saying "we couldn't find anything" is pathetic in the extreme.

2 healthy young people died and at least 2 more were severely ill. There will be information regarding primary cause of death at the very least. (e.g. asphyxiation or myocardial infarction etc.) This more and more looks like incompetence or worse.

Yes, I was re reading the Gazette report , I realize that not only are they saying they don't know WHAT caused the death, but they aren't even saying HOW the deaths occured.

we KNOW St Onge lungs had fluid in them, we know excessive vomitting was a factor along with dehydration .

Yes, cover- up mode .

What is so scary, so potentially damaging that it has to be kept secret?

And how much of this non- info is coming from the Gazette editorial decisions? They haven't included online any reporting on the 4 drownings in Phuket this past week.

Why have the Bangkok POst and The Nation IGNORED this story that was on the front page of CNN web site ? Why is the main reporting coming from a crappy little local rag ?

Remember, the Gazette was the source of the of the " Food poisoning" lie.

I would suggest the editorial staff is not trustworthy for printing news , at least the whole picture, they have a lot to lose if tourism tumbles further.

They are not journalists but investors with a means to spread disinformtion to protect their interests.

Edited June 14, 2009 by CFIT

[MediaWatch2009]

Norwegian article in VG today : (google translation)

-----------------------------------

I'm afraid this is not good news

This report you've posted is nothing but a recycled article from the Phuket Gazette which well may not be substantiated as was their report it was " Food Poisoning .." which they have yet to retract or correct.

It bears mentioning The Gazette has not reported on the St. Onge family biopsy findings that refer to fluid in the lungs.

Look at what a perhaps more credible source says -

phuketwan.com/tourism/phi-phi-deaths-riddle-findings-autopsy-claim-11218/

By Alan Morison

Saturday, June 13, 2009 MYSTERY continues to surround the deaths of two young women tourists who were staying at the same guesthouse on the holiday island of Phi Phi when they suddenly became ill.

The Norwegian Ambassador, Merete Fjeld Brattested, told Phuketwan yesterday that the results of an autopsy on Julie Bergheim, 22, had been passed to the embassy on Wednesday, and forwarded on to the Bergheim family.

The ambassador said that she was not at liberty to reveal what the report contained because this was a private matter for the family.

A spokesperson at the US embassy in Bangkok said yesterday he was unable to confirm that results had been sent to the embassy or the St Onge family by Thai authorities after the autopsy on the American victim, Jill St Onge, 27.

The results of the two autopsies are, as in last week's notorious case involving American actor David Carradine, and his death in a Bangkok hotel closet, supposed to be a private matter.

An online site of a local Phuket newspaper [ Phuket Gazette] today claims the autopsy results on the two Phi Phi victims were ''inconclusive.''

The report quotes a deputy health official in Krabi, the province that contains Phi Phi, as saying that tests on blood and tissue taken from the bodies showed the cause ''definitely wasn't food poisoning.''

The health official is also quoted as saying: ''This is looking like some freak accident.''

[ However Phuket Wan reports;]

There has been no statement yet from the Royal Thai Police Institute of Forensic Medicine in Bangkok, where the autopsies were conducted.

Krabi Governor Siwa Sirisoawaluk, who had previously suggested it would be unwise to speculate about the cause of the deaths, told Phuketwan he was unaware of the results of the autopsies.

The two women were in adjoining rooms at Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi, about 90 minutes by ferry from the larger island of Phuket, when they fell ill in early May.

Both women died within hours of each other at the local hospital, having fallen ill suffering similar symptoms. Two other people also fell ill, but survived.

Ryan Kells, 31, Miss St Onge's companion, believes her death involved some kind of chemical, possibly circulated into their adjoining rooms through the airconditioning.

Miss Bergheim's 19-year-old companion, a Norwegian woman, remained seriously ill for several days.

She probably has the most complete survivor's account of what transpired, but she has been reluctant so far to talk to the media.

Edited June 14, 2009 by MediaWatch2009

[brahmburgers]

From Phuket Gazette.

(shortened version)

Saturday, June 13, 2009

Phi Phi tourist deaths remain a mystery, autopsies inconclusive

Dr Buncha said the tests ruled out food poisoning, contradicting a statement made by Krabi Provincial Police Commander Pasin Nokasul on May 25.

"I can say it definitely wasn't food poisoning," Dr Buncha said. "From the autopsy and blood tests and the questioning of witnesses it's been established that the women ate different food prior to their deaths."

Dr Buncha added that if this were a case of food poisoning, more people would likely have fallen ill too.

The investigation would now need to focus on environmental factors, Dr Buncha said. However, examination of both the air conditioning unit and the water supply at Laleena guesthouse had not revealed anything out of the ordinary, he added.

– Khunakorn Terdkiatkhachorn & Dan Waites

Inconclusive ???? <deleted>. Something is very wrong here.

Cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation.

No mention of any investigation re; cess pool or shower drain. No mention of cleaning solutions, no mention of tests on water bottles - whether empty or partially so. No mention of whether the rooms were fumigated prior to the sicknesses and deaths. No mention of any possible connection to the farang man who died on Phi Phi a month earlier, and the farang man who died of identical-sounding symptoms at Phuket 3 weeks later.

Cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation, cover-up, cover-up, inept investigation.

Redundant commentaries are intentional. Message to Phi Phi pu yai; Get some farang investigators on the scene who are adept, and who are intent on finding the true cause of the deaths.

[Nam Plah]

The report quotes a deputy health official in Krabi, the province that contains Phi Phi, as saying that tests on blood and tissue taken from the bodies showed the cause ''definitely wasn't food poisoning.''

The health official is also quoted as saying: ''This is looking like some freak accident.''

Such as a staff member of the cleaning crew at the GH inadvertantly mixing toilet bowl cleaner with bleach and pouring it down a drain. Whereby deadly chlorine gas was created and vented into the rooms?

Sarin seems highly unlikely.

Miss Bergheim's 19-year-old companion, a Norwegian woman, remained seriously ill for several days.

She probably has the most complete survivor's account of what transpired, but she has been reluctant so far to talk to the media.

It seems odd that she wouldn't speak about the episode that took her friends life and made her ill.

What/whom is she protecting or afraid of?

[balo]

Miss Bergheim's 19-year-old companion, a Norwegian woman, remained seriously ill for several days.

She probably has the most complete survivor's account of what transpired, but she has been reluctant so far to talk to the media.

It seems odd that she wouldn't speak about the episode that took her friends life and made her ill.

What/whom is she protecting or afraid of?

Here in Norway her family have been protecting her from the media .

All we know is that she had a severe psychological reaction to the tragedy . I hope she will start talking to the media or the police soon.

[sriracha john]

Miss Bergheim's 19-year-old companion, a Norwegian woman, remained seriously ill for several days.

She probably has the most complete survivor's account of what transpired, but she has been reluctant so far to talk to the media.

It seems odd that she wouldn't speak about the episode that took her friends life and made her ill.

What/whom is she protecting or afraid of?

Here in Norway her family have been protecting her from the media .

All we know is that she had a severe psychological reaction to the tragedy . I hope she will start talking to the media or the police soon.

Kudos to her family. Her reaction is perfectly normal and completely understandable given the circumstances and particularly her age.

[Scott]

A cover-up implies that something is known and then concealed. In many situations here it is a matter of incompetence followed by the hope that with time, everyone will forget.

[siamiam]

Miss Bergheim's 19-year-old companion, a Norwegian woman, remained seriously ill for several days.

She probably has the most complete survivor's account of what transpired, but she has been reluctant so far to talk to the media.

It seems odd that she wouldn't speak about the episode that took her friends life and made her ill.

What/whom is she protecting or afraid of?

Here in Norway her family have been protecting her from the media .

All we know is that she had a severe psychological reaction to the tragedy . I hope she will start talking to the media or the police soon.

I believe that a record of chemicals, i.e. poisons, can sometimes be found concentrated in the hair and possibly fingernails of someone who has ingested them. I believe that this record will remain in the hair at a certain point along its length, and can be found there, until the hair containing that record is cut off. If other avenues of search are proving unfruitful, it may be good to look at the hair of both Miss Bergheim and Mr. Kells.

[snowgard]

hOW LONG WAS THE TIME BETWEEN THEIR DEATHS AND THE EXAMINATION OF THE AIRCONDITIONS?

2 WEEKS OR MORE? A LOT OF TIME FOR CLEAN AND CHANGE SOMETHING!!!

[DaleBlue]

It must be the Mexican Flu. This stuff is deadly.

[Nam Plah]

I believe that a record of chemicals, i.e. poisons, can sometimes be found concentrated in the hair and possibly fingernails of someone who has ingested them. I believe that this record will remain in the hair at a certain point along its length, and can be found there, until the hair containing that record is cut off. If other avenues of search are proving unfruitful, it may be good to look at the hair of both Miss Bergheim and Mr. Kells.

This is used in the case of certain elemental poisons like arsenic and some heavy metals but doesn't reflect ALL ingested/inhaled toxins.

A more sure method would have been to take blood samples from the survivors and look for antibodies (in the case of an infection) and additionally run a tox-screen for common household poisons.

So far there isn't any indication that either Mr. Kells or Ms. Bergheim have submitted samples.

[siamiam]

I believe that a record of chemicals, i.e. poisons, can sometimes be found concentrated in the hair and possibly fingernails of someone who has ingested them. I believe that this record will remain in the hair at a certain point along its length, and can be found there, until the hair containing that record is cut off. If other avenues of search are proving unfruitful, it may be good to look at the hair of both Miss Bergheim and Mr. Kells.

This is used in the case of certain elemental poisons like arsenic and some heavy metals but doesn't reflect ALL ingested/inhaled toxins.

A more sure method would have been to take blood samples from the survivors and look for antibodies (in the case of an infection) and additionally run a tox-screen for common household poisons.

So far there isn't any indication that either Mr. Kells or Ms. Bergheim have submitted samples.

I agree that hair analysis may be of limited use, but it could also end up being important in this case. I have no medical training or schooling, so my 'knowledge' on this subject comes mostly from what I have read on the internet and/or seen on television, (I thought it would be a good idea to admit to my credentials, or lack of them, up front). My understanding of heavy metals poisoning is that it would likely not fit the timeline of symptom onset and death of the two women in this case. Since I don't feel comfortable in my knowledge of what the exact capabilities of hair testing are, or are not, I will just make an observation on hair testing in regards to arsenic poisoning, (for which hair testing is, or has been, considered viable), in the form of a possible scenario, which is this: Thai testing results are inconclusive, (as announced). If the testing being done outside Thailand also proves to be inconclusive, and we all hope this will not be the case, then a test of the hair of Mr. Kells and Ms. Bergheim might be a place to look further, even if for no other substance than arsenic. Arsenic poisoning, according to my 'internet sources', can exhibit symptoms and a death timeline similar to what we have in this case. What if all tests of the deceased tissue/blood were to prove inconclusive but a high amount of arsenic was to be found in the hair of Mr. Kells or Ms. Bergheim? What would that say about the samples of the two deceased that had been tested? From what I've read, arsenic remains in blood and urine for around 48 hours and after that amount of time elapses, you may need to look at the hair to find it.

Edited June 20, 2009 by siamiam

[Nam Plah]

Arsenic poisoning fits some of the gastrointestinal symptoms but not the respiratory distress and subsequently fatal pulmonary edema.

More likely poisons like strychnine, botulism toxin B and E, metal phosphides like zinc phosphide (commonly used as rodent poison and releasing toxic phosphine gas in the presence of atmospheric oxygen), anhydrous ammonia or chlorine gas (see prior post about common cleaning agents being mixed with household bleach) all somewhat fit the symptoms and victim's conditions prior to their deaths.

The description of Ryan Kells is the most compelling and complete account and contains numerous clues.

• Chemical odor.
  
• Closed air con room.
  
• Sickness began after eating Pizza for dinner.
  
• Approx 12 hours latency before severe distress.
  
• Jill exhibited prolonged and extreme vomiting, nausea.
  
• Jill lost ability to respire apparently due to pulmonary edema caused by severe, acute pneumonia.
  
• Jill had blue tinged skin (a classic sign of oxygen deprivation and a a hallmark of the aforementioned respiratory symptoms).
  

My theory is chemical pneumonia coupled with aspirating gastric contents which were loaded with a disease pathogen (Mycobaterium or Staphylococcus) which quickly invaded and destroyed lung tissue.

Could this be the "Freak accident" scenario health officials mentioned?

Toxic gas was somehow inhaled triggering the beginning of this fatal episode in which infected foodstuff caused gastric contents to be purged and inadvertently aspirated leading to a chain reaction of ever increasing symptoms, reactions and pathology?

Chemical Pneumonia:

A chemically induced inflammation of the lungs. Pneumonia is an irritation and swelling of the lungs usually due to a virus or bacteria but some chemicals can also cause the lungs to become inflamed. Inhalation of fumes such as fuel, insecticides and pool chemicals can all result in chemical pneumonia. This type of pneumonia is not contagious.

Can be casued by:

Insecticides

Pool cleaning chemicals

Gasoline fumes

And other toxins.

Also see:

Chemical Pneumonia

[siamiam]

I don't know what the ThaiVisa policy is for posting URL's to websites, but I am going to try to do it here. If I fail, you may be able to google Arsine gas and look for the Emedicine website that carries the info I would like to draw your attention to. The way I see it, "Arsine, the most toxic form of arsenic", may meet the requirements to be the culprit in the case we are discussing on this ThaiVisa thread, including the respiratory distress/pulmonary edema component. Here is the link, (hopefully):

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/833740-overview

I realize that the chances are small, of the deaths in this case being due to any form of arsenic poisoning, mainly because there are a number of other possibilities. I still feel that hair testing of Mr. Kells and Ms. Bergheim should be done though, (in addition to any other tests that anyone can think of which may be of benefit), barring information we on ThaiVisa have not been privy to thus far that would preclude the necessity of such tests. I think it would be good to have those results recorded now, in case the chance to do so is lost in the future.

I would like to know if the cause of the Phi Phi deaths has been concluded to be respiratory failure. Or, was severe respiratory distress/pulmonary edema just recognized as one of the symptoms?

Edited June 20, 2009 by siamiam

[faranginbkk]

There are thousands of chemicals that can cause poisoning and the symptoms mentioned. So, I think it is not fruitful to speculate on individual compounds until we have more evidence on hand.

[cmdream]

There are thousands of chemicals that can cause poisoning and the symptoms mentioned. So, I think it is not fruitful to speculate on individual compounds until we have more evidence on hand.

It is true there are many reasons why these 2 lovely and innocent children

have been lost to their loved ones. This thread must be kept open and active.

It is the Thai government that owes us an answer as to why!!!

So far we have nothing of substance from the Thai authorities. They speculate about food poisoning, drugs, life style etc. They have done autopsies on both victims. What are the results ? With the technology

available today they should be able to say what was the cause of death.

Yet nothing but breathing problems or food poison ? Its been 45 days since the girls passed on. WHAT KILLED THESE CHILDREN ? The facts are obvious, same guest house, different rooms, shared wall (rooms next to each other), same symptoms on same day, different lifestyles, did not know each other, ate different food.Yet the investigators(?) dismiss this commonality.

I for one will not rest until this tragic loss of 2 young and healthy girls is resolved. My sympathy to the families at your loss.

[Briggsy]

There are thousands of chemicals that can cause poisoning and the symptoms mentioned. So, I think it is not fruitful to speculate on individual compounds until we have more evidence on hand.

I completely concur with your common sense post.

However I don't think you are going to stop the armchair detectives as easily as that.

[Jimjim]

Well, they think they're solving the case here.

But, really, this is a well-known forum. Although probably unlikely there could be someone here who could do the job if they had access to the test results.

[jfchandler]

I think the main point is... there's a lot of amateur sleuth speculating and theories going on here.... trying desperately to fill the seeming TOTAL VOID of any serious investigation or inquiry on the part of Thai authorities -- at least based on what they've said publicly and reported to have done to this date.

In fact, the things the Thai authorities have said publicly (i.e. food poisoning) cause most of us to think either a] the authorities talking don't know what they're talking about or b] the authorities talking are intentionally trying to not know what they're talking about.

[siamiam]

Although probably unlikely there could be someone here who could do the job if they had access to the test results.

Twice in my life I have had a bad case of 'hives'. Quite unpleasant. I was motivated to learn about my condition and in so doing I read from a doctor working in the field that %90 of the time that testing is done to find the cause, the trigger goes unidentified. So, if what I read was accurate, doctors who have spent years in pursuit of the knowledge in the field are only successful %10 of the time in trigger identification for hives. I don't know what that says about the ease or difficulty in identifying the cause of the two deaths on Phi Phi, but intuition tells me that sometimes it may be a difficult thing to do. Could somebody on this thread do it? Possibly.

Cheers to all who care enough to say what they think, as long as their motives are well intentioned.

[brahmburgers]

There are thousands of chemicals that can cause poisoning and the symptoms mentioned. So, I think it is not fruitful to speculate on individual compounds until we have more evidence on hand.

It's unlikely we'll get any more evidence. Members of the public who are interested, deserve to know, or at least get a better info from investigators. Certainly family members deserve better info. The above post assumes the public will get 'more evidence.' Knowing Thailand, you're safer to bet we'll get either wrong evidence and/or more wrong conclusions from investigators on the scene.

What T.Visaites are doing is speculating - based on the small amount of info that's been made public in the past 6 weeks. Perhaps 98% of those speculations are off-base - but even if just one suggestion is on the mark, that's one more than the investigators have come up with thus far.

A recent example: the head hanging off the bridge in Bkk. During the first week, police said it was likely 'a gang-style murder.' During those days, several T.Visaites (myself included) suggested on T.Visa it was a suicide. Days later, it was shown to be just that, a suicide.

[Latindancer]

Six weeks now ? What have the families been told, I wonder ?

And surely when the bodies were sent back for burial in their home countries, the families would have insisted on proper autopsies with all sorts of testing done for chemicals and pathogens......tests not available here ?

Edited June 25, 2009 by Latindancer

[LomSak27]

And surely when the bodies were sent back for burial in their home countries, the families would have insisted on proper autopsies with all sorts of testing done for chemicals and pathogens......tests not available here ?

Have the bodies been sent back, or have they been cremated here? No answer on that.

Nam Plah, not to rain on your arm chair sleuthing but have you considerd a gas ... say in the air con system? A service person perchance putting some other gas than freon in? As long as you are sleuthing can you check it out and poste up your results?

Thanks

[Latindancer]

Other gases are used illegally from time to time. For instance I personally know of people doing this in Australia, where it's illegal to use LPG as a refrigerant in cars, in case of a crash. It is surprisingly effective as a refrigerant. Not sure what other gases are used, though I could find out.

However weren't there two separate rooms involved ? And aren't air conditioners in these holiday places usually separate units ?

The basic bare facts are the bottom line ......the smell, the lung congestion etc. It's very easy to go off chasing a red herring. But I wonder what other gases are used ? I'll try to find out.....

Edited June 25, 2009 by Latindancer

[Nam Plah]

There are nearly a hundred refrigerant gases used in both consumer and industrial cooling and air-con systems so it would be impossible to know exactly which one was used in those two units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants

Over time toxic gases have been phased out and replaced with less dangerous compounds.

The basis of most coolant gases is the family of chemical compounds known as the Haloalkanes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloalkane

Haloalkanes in copper tubing open to the environment can turn into phosgene gas after coming in contact with extreme heat, such as while brazing or in a fire situation. Other ways that phosgene can be created is by passing the haloalkane through an internal combustion engine, or by inhaling it through a lit cigarette, cigar or pipe. Phosgene is a substance that was used as a chemical weapon in World War I. Low exposure can cause irritation, but high levels cause fluid to collect in the lungs, possibly resulting in death.

Phosgene gas is very bad news for anyone inhaling it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene

Phosgene is an insidious poison as the odor may not be noticed and symptoms may be slow to appear.[11] Phosgene can be detected at 0.4 ppm, which is 4x the Threshold Limit Value. Its high toxicity arises, not from hydrogen chloride released by hydrolysis, but by the action of the phosgene on the proteins in the pulmonary alveoli. The alveoli are the site of gas exchange, and their damage disrupts the blood – air barrier and causing suffocation. Phosgene detection badges are worn by those at risk of exposure.

The New York Times has this information (which contradicts DuPont [the manufacturer of the majority of refrigerants we all know as "Freon"] and the Occupational Health And Safety Agency, OSHA) about the dangers of refrigerant gases and what inhalation poisoning looks like.

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/po...g/overview.html

Refrigerant Poisoning

Symptoms

Lungs

• Breathing difficulty
  
• Throat swelling (which may also cause breathing difficulty)
  

Eyes, ears, nose, and throat

• Severe pain in the throat
  
• Severe pain or burning in the nose, eyes, ears, lips, or tongue
  
• Loss of vision
  

Stomach and intestines

• Severe abdominal pain
  
• Vomiting
  
• Burns of the esophagus (food pipe)
  
• Vomiting blood
  
• Blood in the stool
  

Heart and blood

• Irregular heart rhythms
  
• Collapse
  

Skin

• Irritation
  
• Burn
  
• Necrosis (holes) in the skin or underlying tissues
  

NOTE: Most symptoms result from breathing in the substance.

Outlook (Prognosis)

How well a patient does depends on the severity of the poisoning and how quickly medical help was received.

Severe lung damage may occur. Survival past 72 hours usually means the patient will have a complete recovery.

Sniffing freon is extremely dangerous and can lead to long-term brain damage and sudden death.

That doesn't sound like a non-toxic and harmless gas now does it?

In many ways the case has the earmarks of an inhalation of refrigerant gas poisoning.

Then again I came across this as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary_pea

The major symptoms of abrin poisoning depend on the route of exposure and the dose received, though many organs may be affected in severe cases. Initial symptoms of abrin poisoning by inhalation may occur within 8 hours of exposure. Following ingestion of abrin, initial symptoms may occur in less than 6 hours but usually are delayed for 1 to 3 days.

Inhalation

Within a few hours of inhaling significant amounts of abrin, the likely symptoms would be respiratory distress, fever, cough, nausea, and tightness in the chest. Heavy sweating may follow as well as pulmonary edema. This would make breathing even more difficult, and the skin might turn blue. Excess fluid in the lungs would be diagnosed by x-ray or by listening to the chest with a stethoscope. Finally, low blood pressure and respiratory failure may occur, leading to death.

Or it could have been Carbon Monoxide Poisoning...

Point is that all we can do is armchair sleuth and posit theories because we are concerned, confused and for those of us residing in the LOS want to make sure that this doesn't happen to anyone else, especially ourselves.

Keep looking for clues.