Norwegian Woman And American Woman Die Of Unknown Causes on Koh Phi Phi

[robblok]

I wonder why it stays so silent. Did the family not have their own tests done in their respective home countries ?

[Nam Plah]

Toluene - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toluene

Pyridine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridine

Methyl Chloride (Chloromethane) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloromethane

Acetylene - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylene

None of which are suitable replacements for traditional respiratory atmospheric gasses like Oxygen...

It seemed to be an obvious conclusion that there were toxic gasses/vapors present in the affected rooms at Laleena GH from the account of Ryan and the unfortunate victims symptoms, rapid illness and subsequent deaths.

Now we have an inkling of what variety of noxious and toxic chemicals could be to blame.

The most pertinent question is what is the source of the emissions and how are they entering the confined spaces of these rooms.

I still lean towards the water treatment plant as a source of the chemicals.

Occam's razor.

[katana]

Pyridine has an awful, pungent odour. You'd likely be unable to stay in the room with it around.

[Nam Plah]

Initial reports stated a foul odor in the rooms.

So much so that the two Norwegian gals hid their heads beneath the covers of the beds to avoid the odor.

Ryan Kells noticed a strong "chemical" odor that was repulsive upon entering his and Jill's room.

Pyridine synthesis (Chichibabin pyridine synthesis) involves the intermediacy of acrolein, notable as I had postulated in an earlier post about Acrolein poisoning being a possibility due to the reported strong odor and Acrolein's use in water treatment as an herbicide.

Pyridine is also the precursor to myriad insecticides, herbicides, pharmaceuticals, food flavorings, dyes, rubber chemicals, adhesives, paints, explosives and disinfectants. Examples include paraquat.

Also notable as this case has been eyed by myself and others as a possible organophosphate poisoning as well.

What would be common sources of Pyridine?

One example is cetylpyridinium chloride, a cationic surfactant that is a widely used disinfection and antiseptic agent.

Many chemicals may be present as fungicides, herbicides and bactericides as might be used to treat sewage, waste water or in industrial water treatments could fall under scrutiny as likely toxins.

Someone had better take a real close look at the nearby "Water Treatment" facility....

[faranginbkk]

Toluene - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toluene" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toluene</a>

Pyridine - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridine" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridine</a>

Methyl Chloride (Chloromethane) - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloromethane" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloromethane</a>

Acetylene - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylene" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylene</a>

All of these chemicals mentioned are simple organic compounds. If they were found together, it is most likely that they are break-down products from more complex compounds - pesticides perhaps.

It is very unlikely that they were purposefully used as individual compounds or together as a mix in a room.

[caf]

Toluene - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toluene" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toluene</a>

Pyridine - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridine" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridine</a>

Methyl Chloride (Chloromethane) - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloromethane" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloromethane</a>

Acetylene - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylene" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylene</a>

All of these chemicals mentioned are simple organic compounds. If they were found together, it is most likely that they are break-down products from more complex compounds - pesticides perhaps.

It is very unlikely that they were purposefully used as individual compounds or together as a mix in a room.

We can all speculate but one thing is clear. Why the cover up by the authorities. The families have aq right to know what happened.

[brahmburgers]

Chalk up yet some more mysterious farang deaths - successfully covered up by Thai authorities.

[faranginbkk]

Good posting! Get it out in the open. No need to cover up anything.

[miruph]

Thank you for this information Phuketrex.

Its good to see Scandinavian authorities try to find out the truth. Let's hope that they let us know about the result. Horrible cases like these ones need to be resolved and made public. Same for the other cases in the same area.

Quite sad and embarrassing how the death of these young persons were noticed and handled by Thai authorities.

For sure they know what happened.

[brahmburgers]

Today>>>

Norway's Professors Pursue Phi Phi Killer Riddle

''We are not in any way putting a case for doubt on the Thai autopsy. It is just a second opinion. I decided there was a need to open a 'survey' case.''

I respect that the Norwegian professional is bound by diplomatic niceties to have to say something like that, but I, for one, am not bound by any such restrictions.

If the Thai autopsy was inept and/or intentionally tried to cover up important findings, then the Thai authorities responsible for that should be taken to account, .....and seriously disciplined.

Just as when a cop, or a firefighter, or a lifeguard does something illegal/unethical during the course of his job - should be disciplined, .....so too should a forensic scientist who screws up or covers up implicating data.

Edited October 7, 2009 by brahmburgers

[caf]

Today>>>

Norway's Professors Pursue Phi Phi Killer Riddle

''We are not in any way putting a case for doubt on the Thai autopsy. It is just a second opinion. I decided there was a need to open a 'survey' case.''

I respect that the Norwegian professional is bound by diplomatic niceties to have to say something like that, but I, for one, am not bound by any such restrictions.

If the Thai autopsy was inept and/or intentionally tried to cover up important findings, then the Thai authorities responsible for that should be taken to account, .....and seriously disciplined.

Just as when a cop, or a firefighter, or a lifeguard does something illegal/unethical during the course of his job - should be disciplined, .....so too should a forensic scientist who screws up or covers up implicating data.

It goes deeper than a forensic scientist. Thailand covers up bad news.

[nakachalet]

does anyone has a true and exact copy of the thai forensic report which can be shared?

or a location or link that provides access to that report.... without violating any statue or law pls?

i'll be glad to translate it into english again.... <as i did for the murder verdict last month> for the benefits of tv members.

[stumonster]

does anyone has a true and exact copy of the thai forensic report which can be shared?

or a location or link that provides access to that report.... without violating any statue or law pls?

i'll be glad to translate it into english again.... <as i did for the murder verdict last month> for the benefits of tv members.

maybe contact Ryan Kells at this blog http://jillstonge.blogspot.com/

I got that URL from this http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/print.php?id=9051

[brahmburgers]

This may have already been posted on this thread, but here is a copy of a toxicology report taken 13 June, 2009, over a month after the tragic deaths of the two young women. Look at the data from Room 6 at Laleena g.h. (not the same room the women stayed in). Here are 4 toxic chemicals which were detected therein:

toluene

pyridine

methylchloride

acetylene

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

BB's spin: How/why would those toxic chemicals be in a guest house room? From cleaning agents? From insecticide? Perhaps they're fumes which entered the room from unvented septic tank.

Needless to say, this is the type of info we don't expect from Thai investigators - certainly not publicized - as tourist visits are paramount importance, and any less-than-flattering news about Ko Pee Pee is a big no-no.

Added Note: Nearly all septic tanks in Thailand are unvented on the building side. I say this as a career plumber. If you don't believe me, take a look at roofs in Thailand. Do you ever see a vent pipe sticking out above a roof? Didn't think so. Additionally, P-traps are rarely seen. Granted, there are often a less effective type of gas trap under sinks, but very rarely are there any type of traps (to keep septic air out) under showers/bathroom floors. Just as Thais can accept any type/level of noise, so too they can accept foul air in their rooms.

Edited October 11, 2009 by brahmburgers

[nakachalet]

sturmonster

the two references you provided do not have deceased family's connectability.

do you happen to have other alternative that i might contact the family members pls?

thx much for trying

[stumonster]

Ryan Kells was Jill's fiance who was with her and got sick at the same time - maybe leave a message on his blog to get a further contact

[katana]

It's strange how the report shows the gas acetylene since it's not really found in nature. Short of someone doing some welding, wonder how it appears in the report.

[c64]

This may have already been posted on this thread, but here is a copy of a toxicology report taken 13 June, 2009, over a month after the tragic deaths of the two young women. Look at the data from Room 6 at Laleena g.h. (not the same room the women stayed in). Here are 4 toxic chemicals which were detected therein:

toluene

pyridine

methylchloride

acetylene

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

BB's spin: How/why would those toxic chemicals be in a guest house room? From cleaning agents? From insecticide? Perhaps they're fumes which entered the room from unvented septic tank.

Needless to say, this is the type of info we don't expect from Thai investigators - certainly not publicized - as tourist visits are paramount importance, and any less-than-flattering news about Ko Pee Pee is a big no-no.

Added Note: Nearly all septic tanks in Thailand are unvented on the building side. I say this as a career plumber. If you don't believe me, take a look at roofs in Thailand. Do you ever see a vent pipe sticking out above a roof? Didn't think so. Additionally, P-traps are rarely seen. Granted, there are often a less effective type of gas trap under sinks, but very rarely are there any type of traps (to keep septic air out) under showers/bathroom floors. Just as Thais can accept any type/level of noise, so too they can accept foul air in their rooms.

dam_n that guesthouse owner . Aside from trying to make a joke of it. THESE chemicals have never been into a cleaning agent! They have never been into a sever system as long as it has not been heavily contaminated from an industrial spill.

It is a cover up somewhere but I think the guesthouse owner is innocent - don't think it is possible for regular people to get their hands on at least some of these chemicals. Acetylene is used in welding btw

If I may suggest further reading:

http://polymer.matscieng.sunysb.edu/msds/toluene.pdf

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/PY/pyridine.html

http://specialtygasesofamerica.com/msds/me...loride-msds.pdf

http://specialtygasesofamerica.com/msds/me...loride-msds.pdf

Regards

C= 64

[nakachalet]

stumonster:

i tried to post to rob but the board rejected my following post. can you post the following in my behalf, pls. thx much.

rob:

do you by any chance have a copy of the forensic report written by thai authority in your possession?

if you do, i would be glad to translate it into english for you and your family as well as other nonthai readers, at no cost. last month, i did translate a murder verdict for the family members of the muder victim happened in Rayong.

my contact [email protected]

[brahmburgers]

9 weeks, and no new posts on this topic.

Does anyone have any news, such as an official forensic report from Thai or Swedish authorities?

It's important that a proper investigation be carried out. Two otherwise healthy young women died. There's something terribly amiss.

On the other side of the coin, I just found a 2 month old newspaper (oct. '09) telling the story of Bangkok police finding and prosecuting two jewel thieves. The cops had the thinnest of leads (a grainy photo of a car) - and went on to do some very professional and effective investigative work which wound up catching the thieves and retrieving the stolen valuables. I mention this because I've been known to find fault with Thai detective work, so it's heartening to be able to find a reason to praise their effectiveness.

Those are the type of authorities who should be assigned to the mysterious deaths in May at Phi Phi Island. The current crew who had that assignment are ineffective at best.

[hhgz]

"It is a cover up"

By whom, and for what reason?

[Nam Plah]

It may or may not be a "Cover-Up".

But one thing for sure is it is at least a "Foul-Up" on the investigative team and a mysterious tragedy that lingers in the X-Files of Thailand Tourism's most disastrous holiday experiences.

Godspeed to the departed and condolences for the families.

[balo]

No news of any reports from the Norwegian authorities , I think its almost forgotten over here.

Edited December 21, 2009 by balo

[phuketrex]

Nothing new on the blog since the air quality results>>>

http://jillstonge.blogspot.com/

[siamiam]

No news of any reports from the Norwegian authorities , I think its almost forgotten over here.

Here is a link to an article that appeared in the Phuket Wan newspaper on October 7th of this year. Below the url link is the article in full. I highlited in blue the parts I think pertain to our wanting info about the test results.

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/norways-profe...r-riddle-11653/

Norway's Professors Pursue Phi Phi Killer Riddle

By Alan Morison and Chutima Sidasathian Wednesday, October 7, 2009

THE BEST forensic scientists in Norway are now trying to solve the year's most mystifying puzzle: what caused the sudden deaths of two young women tourists who occupied adjoining rooms in a guesthouse on Phi Phi, a tropical island paradise.

Two Scandinavian professors are attempting to put the pieces in place to resolve a mystery half a world away, a riddle that has so far eluded the best scientific endeavors Thailand can muster.

It's unusual to have scientists from one country become so deeply involved in a police case in another country. But then, the Phi Phi deaths are, as far as Phuketwan is able to tell, unique.

How did they die? Why did they die? These are questions that so far have no answers.

Norway is a relatively large country with a small-population, a nation that takes precious pride in maintaining a sense of community.

Life is treasured. Such is the level of concern about what took place involving Julie Bergheim at the Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi back in May that Norway decided on a diplomatically unconventional response.

With one or two possible exceptions, everybody wants the case solved. Norwegian Julie Bergheim, 22, and an American, Jill St Onge, 27, were young women in the prime of their lives before that strange weekend in paradise.

The family of the American woman is just as keen to have the case solved as Julie Bergheim's family. After all, Jill St Onge was on what amounted to a pre-nuptials honeymoon with her husband to be, Ryan Kells, when they both fell ill at Laleena.

The difference is a vital one. The Norwegian scientists have a body. The Americans do not.

In the aftermath of the two sudden deaths on Phi Phi, the bodies of both women were taken to Bangkok, and subjected to autopsies. Jill St Onge was cremated soon after at a Buddhist temple. Julie Bergheim was transported home.

Phuketwan has been led to believe that officials at the Norwegian embassy in Bangkok, where the ambassador and staff never give journalists any information, actually played a key role in orchestrating the second autopsy.

THE EMAIL was short and to the point: ''You are correctly informed that I, together with a colleague professor of forensic medicine, have been given the task to perform a second autopsy on the deceased in question, which has been done. The case is not yet concluded, but even when it is, we shall not be allowed to disclose the results to anybody else than Norwegian Police.

''Sincerely yours

Kari Ormstad,

professor of forensic medicine, MD, PhD''

And that was that. Our follow-up email, requesting the name of the other professor and the date of the second autopsy, brought no response.

Public Prosecutor Sjak Haaheim was a little more forthcoming when we telephoned. He knows that the practice of starting a second inquiry into a police case in another country is highly unusual.

As the leading prosecutor in Julie Bergheim's home county, it was his approval that was required for a second investigation, more properly called a ''survey,'' to commence.

Did it come because of the large groundswell of interest in solving a case involving a young Norwegian traveller, that national sense of community? Probably.

''My decision,'' Mr Haaheim tells us, ''was strongly motivated by the wishes of the family.

''We are not in any way putting a case for doubt on the Thai autopsy. It is just a second opinion. I decided there was a need to open a 'survey' case.''

The two forensic science professors performed the autopsy in June and have been working towards a set of findings ever since. The findings, says Mr Haaheim, will be presented to the family first, then made public.

Results may be sent back to the Thai authorities ''through diplomatic channels.'' At this stage, exactly what the reaction might be among the Thai investigators can only be the subject of speculation.

Of the four people who fell ill that weekend at Laleena Guesthouse, two are dead. Ryan Kells has told his version of events in an online blog.

He maintains that he noticed a chemical smell when he and Miss St Onge checked in that Saturday. He believes a gas made them both sick, and killed Miss Onge.

The other person with first-hand experience of what happened is Miss Bergheim's 19-year-old friend, another Norwegian, who also fell ill and only recovered after treatment in intensive care.

She has never given a public account of what happened. Mr Haaheim says he considered interviewing the woman, but it was decided that her privacy and her wishes should be respected.

What the 'survey' team has that the Thai investigators did not have is access to Norwegian medical records and, Mr Haaheim says, ''other information.''

SO THERE are three pockets of concern, spread across the globe, as the investigation remains at a standstill in Thailand and the 'survey' continues in Norway.

From the western seaboard of America, the Onge family has made it known online that they were not happy with the Thai autopsy report, which consisted of just three pages when they were expecting about 20. The material had to be translated into English first at the US Embassy in Bangkok, another time-consuming element in the process.

Some of the documents are confusing. This is especially the case with results of an ''environmental quality test'' made on June 13, six weeks after the deaths, that showed the presence of several gases in samples taken from Room 6 at Laleena Guesthouse at 1.35pm, but nothing in a slightly different test at 1.43pm.

The owner of the guesthouse, Rat Chuped, still maintains that there was nothing in her establishment capable of causing death.

She has no explanation for the illness that struck four healthy young people in adjoining Rooms 4 and 5 that May weekend.

Tourists are back now, staying in those same rooms, as if nothing unusual ever happened. Phi Phi is about an hour by ferry from Phuket, and the number of visitors is beginning to rise now for the holiday high season.

Edited December 22, 2009 by siamiam

[Lovedog100]

It looks like Jill's blogspot hasn't been updated since September. That would lead me to believe that the family hasn't heard anything since then. Typical Thai face saving cover up. It is sad the way the family has been treated in order to save tourism. Having seen the Thailand press covered this story, I won't believe anything they say in the future. Not that I believed much of what they said anyway.

[Valentine]

These tragic deaths have not been forgotten as can be seen on a Phuket news website which cannot be named but has an interview with survivors There is also mention of concrete works going on in the canal behind the Laleena guesthouse on another forum.

[robb1049]

These tragic deaths have not been forgotten as can be seen on a Phuket news website which cannot be named but has an interview with survivors There is also mention of concrete works going on in the canal behind the Laleena guesthouse on another forum.

This is Jill's brother Rob. Check out these before and after pictures of the canal behind the Laleena guest house people have sent me.

Looks pretty suspect to me.

Thanks for keeping the thread going. updated Jill's blog yesterday. Feel free to check it out. Nothing really new to report.

Regards to all,

Rob

Before (the way it was when Jill and Julie died)

After (I guess a few months after the deaths)

Edited January 18, 2010 by robb1049

[Valentine]

Rob, do you think it was gas? if so I cannot see how it can come from running water as in the first pic of the canal. H2S can form from decomposing matter but it is heavier than air & has a rotten egg smell in low doses but as the content increases you cannot smell it which is when it is most deadly.

[robb1049]

Rob, do you think it was gas? if so I cannot see how it can come from running water as in the first pic of the canal. H2S can form from decomposing matter but it is heavier than air & has a rotten egg smell in low doses but as the content increases you cannot smell it which is when it is most deadly.

I'm at a loss, like all of you, as to what may have caused this. I was surprised the first time is saw how dirty it was behind Laleena. Who knows what has been dumped down that creek.

My personal opinion was some sort of insecticide. That would attribute to the low acetylcholinesterase found in Jill. And seeing that dirty, nasty canal behind Laleena you can be sure they had some insect problems. Also the half life for insecticides in the body degrade rather fast (depending on the chemical used). Maybe that's why nothing was able to be found. But that's just a possible hypothesis... one of many out there I suppose.

Anyone have any idea what type of insecticides are used on Phi Phi (or made available from Thailand)?

Rob