Obsession About Losing Face

[Familyonthemove]

Just a thought ... but isn't the Asian concept of 'not losing face' just another way of describing being a 'bad loser'?

I'm from the UK, where we have a highly developed concept of being a 'good loser' ... we have plenty of practice!; World Cup football, national debt, cricket, school sports.

But the concept of losing face ... being calm at the time, then hiring a motorcycle hit man to get even later ... just looks like being a bad loser to me?

Take it on the chin like a man!

[jingjoe]

No one likes to lose face, especially when there's an audience. Being a good loser is more about "saving face" than losing it. Things are, the way they are, comparing Thai personality quirks with English ones can often be like comparing apples with oranges.

I know I've had to keep my temper in check over the years, Thailand isn't always as forgiving (building a bridge) to dummy spitting outbursts as our own home "turf" might be.

[samtam]

I always find it amusing that an Asian thinks that "losing face" only applies to himself, and he doesn't respect a foreigner's priviledge of not "losing face".

[doggie888888]

I always find it amusing that an Asian thinks that "losing face" only applies to himself, and he doesn't respect a foreigner's priviledge of not "losing face".

"If you don't give face, then don't expect it in return" is how the practise works. It's also to do with who should give face first; eg younger person should give face to older person, "lower status" gives face to "higher status", as and when a situation requires it. I tend to think, and not everyone will agree with me, that being an "alien" here I should try to give face first so when a situation develops I try to be the first to defuse the situation and eat the humble pie. It's against my own character, but it makes life a lot easier here. I also worked out that Thais can assess if the giving face is genuine or not, so I am still practising to "appear" genuine although a lot of it is faked!!! I ust say it has made relationships with Thai acquaintances, neighbours, shopkeepers, tradespeople etc a lot more productive. There is a lot I don't agree with in relation to this face issue (especially when I am in the right), but when in Rome do as the Romans do.

Another related issue: I have actually seen a Thai "giving face" to a farang, but alas it was mis-interpreted by the farang as telling an untruth...see the separate thread about Thais telling lies. Of course some Thai will lie as will other nationalities (and I have had my fair share of dishonest farangs in Pattaya) but I think the mis-perception is that there are many more Thais telling lies becasue of a lack of understanding about this face thing.

You don't need to agree with me, but it's just my 2satangs worth based on my own experience.

[Heng]

I've found that many foreigners, after living here awhile, adopt the saving face thing really quickly. No one likes to be embarrassed.

[LennyW]

This thing about Thais not wanting to lose face is probably the most ridiculous thing i have ever encountered here.......it is just gives a green light for lying!!!

You can ask a Thai for driving directions, and rather than say they dont know, they will give you the greatest blether of <deleted> and smile and send you off in the wrong direction. I dont care if they know or not, i can ask somebody else, find it by myself or whatever. Wheather they are clever enough to know the correct way or not does not put them up or down in my estimation, However, lying to try and make themselves look good - does put them down in my view!!

I used to find it amusing many years ago, but now it is just ridiculious and tedious!!!

[Geekfreaklover]

This thing about Thais not wanting to lose face is probably the most ridiculous thing i have ever encountered here.......it is just gives a green light for lying!!!

You can ask a Thai for driving directions, and rather than say they dont know, they will give you the greatest blether of <deleted> and smile and send you off in the wrong direction. I dont care if they know or not, i can ask somebody else, find it by myself or whatever. Wheather they are clever enough to know the correct way or not does not put them up or down in my estimation, However, lying to try and make themselves look good - does put them down in my view!!

I used to find it amusing many years ago, but now it is just ridiculious and tedious!!!

It's funny. I was speaking to a oil and gas loss adjuster receantly and he had exactly the same experience in the Carribean after a hurricane hit. They landed on the island and asked directions to the office. Everybody that they asked gave wrong directions rather say the dreaded 'I don't know'

So it can't be just a Thai thing.

Back in the UK I recall getting lost on the A303 and asking a local person 'How do you get to Bristol?'

"My brother takes me.' He replied.

[LooseCannon]

This thing about Thais not wanting to lose face is probably the most ridiculous thing i have ever encountered here.......it is just gives a green light for lying!!!

You can ask a Thai for driving directions, and rather than say they dont know, they will give you the greatest blether of <deleted> and smile and send you off in the wrong direction. I dont care if they know or not, i can ask somebody else, find it by myself or whatever. Wheather they are clever enough to know the correct way or not does not put them up or down in my estimation, However, lying to try and make themselves look good - does put them down in my view!!

I used to find it amusing many years ago, but now it is just ridiculious and tedious!!!

........

So it can't be just a Thai thing.

Absolutely correct.

Try asking for directions when you are India.

You will without a doubt get the most complex & detailed set of directions from a person that is totally clueless as to where you want to go.

[h90]

I don't see much of loosing face. Mostly I see childish behavior and most people don't care anything for money.

Face: not important

Baht: important

[Texpat]

I love it when a group of adult Thais will sit around listening to some old coot spewing absolute bullsh!t -- all murmuring luhr, luhr in unison -- because they're not allowed to tell the old basturd he's full of it and needs to be in an asylum.

Great face-saving comedy.

[toybits]

It is difficult for a westerner to learn about what Loosing Face is about especially when many caucasians gain face with age.

Just a thought ... but isn't the Asian concept of 'not losing face' just another way of describing being a 'bad loser'?

I'm from the UK, where we have a highly developed concept of being a 'good loser' ... we have plenty of practice!; World Cup football, national debt, cricket, school sports.

But the concept of losing face ... being calm at the time, then hiring a motorcycle hit man to get even later ... just looks like being a bad loser to me?

Take it on the chin like a man!

[Heng]

Yeah, back home we have old folks home orderlies and grumpy minority nurses to do that. 'You bess not wet your bed again today!'

Much more civilized.

[h90]

I love it when a group of adult Thais will sit around listening to some old coot spewing absolute bullsh!t -- all murmuring luhr, luhr in unison -- because they're not allowed to tell the old basturd he's full of it and needs to be in an asylum.

Great face-saving comedy.

never saw that.....but all around me are southerns with some chinese genes inside

[LennyW]

We are perhaps having a bit of a laugh about it on this forum, but i see this loss of face thing as THE single biggest stumbling block towards getting a decent government here, and peaceful progress in general!!!

[Birdman]

A classical catch 22 situation here. Only proper education would help to improve the issue. But to keep things like they are, the education system will be kept as it is as well.

[SoiGirlHunter]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

[Sabum]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

YEEESH...... they explicitly said DONT bring a girl to the condo and you do (neighbours see) and 2 FRIENDS WALK IN with your wife!?!? Doesn't get any more loss of face than that man..... big mistake. Now you are moving to correct the situation.... try not to make her want to move every month eh? Seriously, she gives ONE restriction and you cant abide by it... some people.

[yabaaaa]

I don't see much of loosing face. Mostly I see childish behavior and most people don't care anything for money.

Face: not important

Baht: important

[onnut]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

YEEESH...... they explicitly said DONT bring a girl to the condo and you do (neighbours see) and 2 FRIENDS WALK IN with your wife!?!? Doesn't get any more loss of face than that man..... big mistake. Now you are moving to correct the situation.... try not to make her want to move every month eh? Seriously, she gives ONE restriction and you cant abide by it... some people.

and you really believe that story? by that answer you are helping him save face

Edited May 5, 2009 by onnut

[Misplaced]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

YEEESH...... they explicitly said DONT bring a girl to the condo and you do (neighbours see) and 2 FRIENDS WALK IN with your wife!?!? Doesn't get any more loss of face than that man..... big mistake. Now you are moving to correct the situation.... try not to make her want to move every month eh? Seriously, she gives ONE restriction and you cant abide by it... some people.

and you really believe that story? by that answer you are helping him save face

I find that most people who bragged about their sexual conquest generally received "none" or very little of.

It's just another form of saving /creating face for oneself.

[mahtin]

The internet is Walter Mitty paradise.

[JohnGotti]

I don't know where you guys find the time to think so much, get so worked up over other people whom you don't even care about.

[longstebe]

Last year whilst in the wifes village,her uncle Who happens to be the village boss was sitting opposite the house with one or two guys.As I had just arrived I forgot to adjust and gave him the thumbs up instead of a 'wai'. He has about 15 yrs on me so I have no problem to 'wai'. Later on he told the wife that I had disrespected him. I did apologize in Thai later on in front of his friends. Deep down I wanted to tell him to live with it and move on.

[Familyonthemove]

Last year whilst in the wifes village,her uncle Who happens to be the village boss was sitting opposite the house with one or two guys.As I had just arrived I forgot to adjust and gave him the thumbs up instead of a 'wai'. He has about 15 yrs on me so I have no problem to 'wai'. Later on he told the wife that I had disrespected him. I did apologize in Thai later on in front of his friends. Deep down I wanted to tell him to live with it and move on.

Yep .... this is the point I was trying to make .... in cultures where other people make much less of an effort to cover up gaffs to 'save face' (or even highlight mistakes to rub it in, as in every UK and US school), people get used to feeling a bit foolish or being rubbed up the wrong way, and hopefully they learn from it.

There's lots of western phrases that describe the opposite approach to 'saving face'; ... 'turn the other cheek', 'suck it up', 'move on', 'get over it', 'no use crying over spilt milk' ... and 'grow up you big girls blouse!'.

At the risk of bringing in the red/yellow shirt brigade, I think K. Abhisit has shown a more mature approach to the 'face' issue. He apparently lost face when a bunch of hooligans disrupted the Pattaya ASEAN Summit ... but he picked himself up and carried on. Perhaps a UK education has helped him learn how to bounce back from a crisis rather than worry about how much face he may have lost?

[Texpat]

Or perhaps it made him quick to concede and appease.

[n23]

This thing about Thais not wanting to lose face is probably the most ridiculous thing i have ever encountered here.......it is just gives a green light for lying!!!

You can ask a Thai for driving directions, and rather than say they dont know, they will give you the greatest blether of <deleted> and smile and send you off in the wrong direction. I dont care if they know or not, i can ask somebody else, find it by myself or whatever. Wheather they are clever enough to know the correct way or not does not put them up or down in my estimation, However, lying to try and make themselves look good - does put them down in my view!!

I used to find it amusing many years ago, but now it is just ridiculious and tedious!!!

........

So it can't be just a Thai thing.

Absolutely correct.

Try asking for directions when you are India.

You will without a doubt get the most complex & detailed set of directions from a person that is totally clueless as to where you want to go.

Yes, I had exactly the same problem in India, I couldn't figure it out at first then realised that rather than admit they didn't know they would just lie to save face, it was so annoying. I always hoped I would run into one of these people again so I could say "You gave me the wrong directions, you know what you're talking about"

They don't realise that most westerners don't care as long as the person is honest, a simple "I don't know" is always better than lying. I understand the concept of saving face but when it comes to lying over a simple matter like directions then it becomes ridiculous and sometimes infuriating.

Also I've noticed that in shops when they say "Sorry, we no have" they always have a sheepish look on their face, it's a situation where they can not lie, so I wonder if that is seen as losing face?

[Jungian]

I don't think it's just an Asian concept, I don't know very many Americans that like losing face and some will fight even when they know they are dead wrong like my father and grandfather for example, they are never wrong; everyone else is an idiot.

[Heng]

Look at particular rules on particular web forums on how you're not allowed to talk about particular professions of a particularly significant large demographic of foreigner's significant others. Preservation of face at its purest. Hint, I'm not talking about pantip, sanook, or hunsa.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Heng

[pedro01]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

So Mr "Soigirlhunter", can we presume your wife was working in an office or was studying tirelessly at University when you met ?

[mauGR1]

Look at particular rules on particular web forums on how you're not allowed to talk about particular professions of a particularly significant large demographic of foreigner's significant others. Preservation of face at its purest. Hint, I'm not talking about pantip, sanook, or hunsa.

Well,you cannot expect a retired farang,who have ten years left at best,to spend one month courting the "good girls"do you?

But "face" is important wherever we live, funny some people think it's a Thai issue only.