150 Baht Atm Fee

[SurfRider]

If you're looking for a benchmark currency rate on the Internet, I've always found X-Rates to VERY closely approximate the rate I get from E-Trade.

http://www.x-rates.com/d/THB/USD/data120.html

The last transaction I did using an E-Trade VISA Debit Card was on May 4 at a Kaskorn ATM, before they started charging the 150 Baht usury fee.

Here's the X-Rates published rate for May 4:

2009-05-04 Monday, May 4 35.2303 THB

Here's the actual E-Trade data from my account on May 4:

5/04/09 ATM THAI FARMERS BA 7-11 M... -283.81

Calcs: 10,000 / 283.81 = 35.23484

As should be evident, both rates are VERY close.

As of 5:25pm today, May 21, X-Rates has not yet posted their rates for today -- Later on this evening, the rate will be posted and anyone can run the calcs on Langsuan Man's Ayudyha transaction from today.

It will either match his 34.35 rate, or it won't.

If it matches, he's clearly made his point -- if not, please scream at Ayudyha, not me -- Thanks!

.

[SurfRider]

X-Rates: 2009-05-21 Thursday, May 21 34.3853 THB

X-Rates posted at 34.3853, which results in only a US $0.49 discrepancy between the two rates on a 20,000 Baht transaction.

Roughly about a 17 Baht difference. ( or the cost of about 1.7 bottles of Red-Bull at 7-11 )

So, probably no need for a war over this transaction.

.

[SurfRider]

Apologies for cross-posting from another thread, but I wanted to show an example of why it might not be a good idea to fall in love with a particular bank and why all Debit Cards are apparently not treated equally.

"2009-05-22 01:16:39 -- I used a US-based Mastercard debit card to withdraw 16,000 baht at an Bank of Ayudhya ATM. It didn't prompt me about the 150 baht fee, but it did ask if I would accept a conversion rate of 33.10. I chose "yes". The transaction that appears on my online statement however is US$492.03, which is a conversion rate of 30.75!"

Actually, it appears that he got the calcs slightly wrong -- if the 16,000 Baht and US $492.03 values are correct, the rate he actually got was 32.52 Baht per one US$

This roughly results in a hit of US $26.23 ( or about 900 Baht ) on a 16,000 Baht transaction compared with the exchange rate on Langsuan's Ayudyha transaction represented above.

At least it was nice of them to ask if he would accept a ridiculously inferior exchange rate

Be careful! -- It's a vicious Banking jungle out there . . .

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Banks-S...51#entry2752451

[JimGant]

What I can't figure from your post, however, is where the exchange rate you actually got came from.

JC, you surprise me. You seem to have a handle on everything -- except exchange rates.

It's been shown multiple times on all these tiresome threads that the ATM exchange rate is established by the networks (Visa/Plus and MasterCard/Cirrus), not the ATM owner. The only exception -- and a recent one -- is that the MC/Cirrus network now allows DCC, so the ATM owner can now set his own exchange rates, as long as he follows the network's rules on DCC, including requiring warning the customer what the exchange rate will be. Visa, apparently, hasn't authorized DCC for ATM transactions, realizing -- smartly -- that eventually ATM transactions with MasterCard/Cirrus branded cards will equate to 'screwjob' if the DCC concept becomes common place. In which case, Visa/Plus branded ATM cards will have a competitive advantage.

The actual 34.35 rate you got doesn't match any of the rates quoted on the BofA web page, nor could I get to it by adding or subtacting 1% (Visa cut?) from any of the posted rates...

Again, no quotes from Bank of Ayudhaya are applicable (unless we're now talking DCC, which we're not in this case). The quotes you see are for ACH and wire transfers (the TT rate), and for in-bank exchanges of checks, cash, T checks, etc. But NOT ATM transactions.

You're never going to know whether the rate one gets is exactly the going rate at the time, since for ATM transactions, the exchange rate is near real time -- and there is no near real time exchange rate website to tune in to.

The closest, timewise, I could find was a BB Bank quote for TT at 1600hrs, 21 May. This was 34.26. LM's 34.35, being 9 satang better, is in the ball park for indicating he's getting the advertised "wholesale" exchange rate, which is in the Interbank Exchange Rate arena, which is normally 5-20 satang *better* than the TT rate. So, if you're always getting a few satang better than the TT rate -- with your ATM, Debit, or Credit card -- you're most likely getting all your fees refunded, at least on the issuing bank side. Good deal!

"2009-05-22 01:16:39 -- I used a US-based Mastercard debit card to withdraw 16,000 baht at an Bank of Ayudhya ATM. It didn't prompt me about the 150 baht fee, but it did ask if I would accept a conversion rate of 33.10. I chose "yes". The transaction that appears on my online statement however is US$492.03, which is a conversion rate of [32.52]!"

Welcome to DCC. Besides getting a DCC conversion rate 1.25 baht lower than the going network rate, he still has to pay the same network and issuing bank fees that come with his ATM card. In this case, they appear to be: the 1% foreign transaction fee, plus an additional .75% issuing card fee. And, because of the lower DCC exchange rate, the fee the ATM owner receives is over 4 times that of a 150bt flat fee. Ouch!

At least it was nice of them to ask if he would accept a ridiculously inferior exchange rate

The networks require that the merchant/ATM owner point out what you're getting with DCC. Unfortunately, a side-by-side comparison is not required. So, in this case, who would really know what the competing network rate really is.... (well, I guess many of us would know a ballpark figure, so the DCC figure would be laughable to many of us).

With credit cards and DCC, you're shown what the charge will be in your home currency (as required by the network rules). But, you're never shown what this home currency amount would be if the network conversion rate were used (which would always be better). No, DCC sucks from all quarters.

[JimGant]

Dynamic currency conversion at ATMs has begun to spread after a 12-month pilot in continental Europe that ended last year and was deemed a success. Although the roll-out on the continent is so far largely confined to Santander, other banks are monitoring the situation to see if it becomes accepted by the general public.

Now, at the Bank of Ayudhaya -- and coming soon to an ATM near you........ BARF!

See the full article HERE

[jfchandler]

JC, you surprise me. You seem to have a handle on everything -- except exchange rates.

posted rates...

Jim, I can accept your basic premise about how the Visa and MC networks set the basic rates for international exchange made via ATM transactions (with the exception of DCC).

However, based on what I've read here and my own experiences, there appear to be other factors that come into the equation, ones that I'm still struggling to understand...and that make it difficult to know why a person is getting a particular net rate with a particular card at any particular bank.

For example:

--I have one U.S. bank that charges a 1% VISA fee on foreign ATM transactions, and shows those tiny amounts separately in my online banking ledger (and reimbursing me for the 1% at month's end). Yet I also have another U.S. bank with a MC debit card that shows my transactions as a single withdrawal amount (presumably rolling the MC cut into the overall net exchange rate).

--I've been reading Langsuan Man's posts about his withdrawals using an E*Trade VISA debit card. I have several Visa debit cards with other U.S. banks, including the one mentioned above. And yet, whenever he posts on a particular transaction, my exchange rates for the same day with VISA cards never seem to be even close to those rates, when clearly we're both using ATMs that don't charge the 150 baht fees.

--The other day, as I posted elsewhere, I did back to back transactions at a UOB ATM in BKK, one with a MC logo debit card, and the other with a Visa logo debit card, both for 1000 baht. I got a 34.15 rate on the MC, with no 150 baht fee or any other charge, and I got a 33.88 rate on the Visa card, with no 150 baht charge, but an added, separate $1.07 ATM charge (even though when I use that same VISA card at other Thai bank ATMS, I never get such a charge, so presumably it's not coming from my home bank.)

Maybe there's some explanation for these kinds of things, but I struggle to know what it would be.

I did the "test" above at the UOB ATMs to see just how those kinds of things work comparatively with VISA vs. MC. I guess my next step is to take one of my cards, it would have to be VISA, and do back to back transactions with the same card at GSB and then UOB and see how the results compare.

[KhunDave]

Is anyone else having problems with GSB ATMs? I have tried three in different locations in the past few days and every time have got the "communication error" message. I read somewhere that their links to overseas banks might be overloaded due to everyone visiting their ATM's as opposed to those of the fee-chargers.

[Langsuan Man]

I tried GSB ATM the other day in Pattaya, when I did my test and report, but canceled the transaction when it would not give me the full 20,000 THB that I wanted

It was not an error message per se, just that "the amount you have entered is incorrect" which usually means that they cannot satisfy your request for that AMOUNT

[jfchandler]

GSB ATMs only take Visa logo cards, not MasterCard...

So, if you happen to try a MC, you may get an error message like "communication error"...

[JimGant]

--I've been reading Langsuan Man's posts about his withdrawals using an E*Trade VISA debit card. I have several Visa debit cards with other U.S. banks, including the one mentioned above. And yet, whenever he posts on a particular transaction, my exchange rates for the same day with VISA cards never seem to be even close to those rates, when clearly we're both using ATMs that don't charge the 150 baht fees.

JC, I guess you found the solution, per another thread: use your Schwab card.

Care to mention what crap outfit issued the card that gave you the crummy rate -- and a $1.07 fee? But, I suspect, you've already cut it up.

I got a 34.15 rate on the MC,

As the IER was 34.39 that day, suspect you've got some small fees with that card. Either that, or the Cirrus network's rates don't come as close to the IER as does the Visa network's....

(For awhile, a few years back (during the onshore/offshore dilemna), the Visa and MC rates were wildly apart.)

[barryofthailand]

--I've been reading Langsuan Man's posts about his withdrawals using an E*Trade VISA debit card. I have several Visa debit cards with other U.S. banks, including the one mentioned above. And yet, whenever he posts on a particular transaction, my exchange rates for the same day with VISA cards never seem to be even close to those rates, when clearly we're both using ATMs that don't charge the 150 baht fees.

JC, I guess you found the solution, per another thread: use your Schwab card.

Care to mention what crap outfit issued the card that gave you the crummy rate -- and a $1.07 fee? But, I suspect, you've already cut it up.

I got a 34.15 rate on the MC,

As the IER was 34.39 that day, suspect you've got some small fees with that card. Either that, or the Cirrus network's rates don't come as close to the IER as does the Visa network's....

(For awhile, a few years back (during the onshore/offshore dilemna), the Visa and MC rates were wildly apart.)

I think maybe he forgot the 1% conversion charge that visa and Mastercharge levies to your withdawing bank.

Barry

[jfchandler]

I think maybe he forgot the 1% conversion charge that visa and Mastercharge levies to your withdawing bank.

Barry

Sorry, I have no idea what part of the prior posts you're commenting on. I think by "he" you mean me... But that's about as much as I can discern from your comment.

[jfchandler]

OK, so, let's help everyone out...

Here are the real, net exchange rates U.S. folks should have been getting last week on their Thailand ATM transactions (from the X-rates.com web site. If you're getting these rates or close to them, you're doing good (fee-free) with your ATM card withdrawals.

2009-05-18 Monday, May 18........ 34.5598 THB

2009-05-19 Tuesday, May 19....... 34.4101 THB

2009-05-20 Wednesday, May 20...... 34.4551 THB

2009-05-21 Thursday, May 21...... 34.3853 THB

2009-05-22 Friday, May 22...... 34.3351 THB

We don't know the exact source X-rates is using, but as Jim Gant has pointed out, the X-Rates data appears to pretty closely mirror the Interbank Exchange Rate that the Bank of Thailand web site posts weekdays. For example, it showed 34.392 for Thursday, May 21.

These are the ATM exchange rates that debit cards like Charles Schwab and E*Trade appear to be paying. In my case, I know from personal experience this week, these are the rates the Schwab debit card IS paying, much better than my other VISA debit cards... I'm still waiting for my E*Trade card in the mail.

Also as Jim pointed out in a prior post, the "buying TT rate" is not a good marker for ATM withdrawal transactions. It's usually 15 satang or so lower than the IER rate.

So if you want to aim for the best, use the IER rate as your ATM card target. If you're card's netting you less, look for a better one.

If you're not fussy about exchange rates, then settle for a card that pays the "buying TT rate." There are certainly more cards out there that can produce that kind of result.

But if your ATM card is netting you below the "buying TT" rate, you either don't care much about your money, or you should be busy looking for a new ATM card provider.

As we have shown clearly in prior posts, not all ATM cards in either the VISA or MC families give the same real net exchange rates on ATM withdrawals. Even with cards advertised as being free of foreign currency transaction charges, home banks clearly are taking varying cuts of their own, leaving you with more or less money, depending on which ATM card you use.

Right now, Schwab and E*Trade cards are providing these kinds of real net exchange rates. Anyone else got a bank ATM card that's also matching the IER rates listed above???

PS - Don't use Thai bank ATMs that charge the 150 baht per withdrawal fee for foreign cards. As of today, Government Savings Bank (GSB) (Visa only) and United Overseas Bank (UOB) (Visa and MC) remain fee-free.

[Langsuan Man]

As of today, Government Savings Bank (GSB) (Visa only) and United Overseas Bank (UOB) (Visa and MC) remain fee-free.

Does this mean, absolutely, positively, without a doubt, that ALL Bank of Ayudhaya ATM's have gone over to the dark side ?

[jfchandler]

LM, I left out mention of Ayudhya because....

1. I personally haven't tried using any of their ATMs lately, so I can't vouch for them...and

2. I've seen conflicting reports in the various threads about whether they are or are not charging the 150 baht at present. And other reports saying they will be charging soon.

Either way, Ayudhya for certain is doing DCC (Dynamic Currency Conversion) and its resulting crappy exchange rate on MasterCard transactions.

Maybe others here can clarify whether Ayudhya still belongs on the fee-free list or not...

[Langsuan Man]

Thank you

[hyperdimension]

It's been shown multiple times on all these tiresome threads that the ATM exchange rate is established by the networks (Visa/Plus and MasterCard/Cirrus), not the ATM owner.

Jim, can you then explain the extreme disparity a couple of years ago between the exchange rate within Thailand and the rate outside Thailand? The rates within Thailand were around 10% better. I think I recall during that time that I checked the Visa web site for their exchange rate, and it did not show the much better onshore exchange rate. Neither did oanda.com show the better rate. The only web sites that did were the Thai bank web sites, so that led me to believe that the Thai bank TT rates were the ones to use for ATM transactions. Based on how much was being deducted from my home account whenever I withdrew Thai baht from a Thai ATM, I was getting excellent rates.

Edited May 24, 2009 by hyperdimension

[Chaimai]

Maybe others here can clarify whether Ayudhya still belongs on the fee-free list or not...

Bank of Ayudhya was free when I used their ATM on Thursday.

[SurfRider]

"can you then explain the extreme disparity a couple of years ago between the exchange rate within Thailand and the rate outside Thailand? The rates within Thailand were around 10% better."

I was looking for an explanation back then also -- this doesn't really "explain" it, but the best reasoning that I was able to find at the time was that the higher rate was how Thailand viewed the value of its currency on the international market, and the lower rate was how the Thai currency was viewed externally by the real world outside of Thailand.

I have no idea if this is a correct explanation or not, but that is the best I was able to find at the time.

I'm not sure how the mechanism worked, but I read a newspaper article at the time that claimed that the Thai banks were really "cleaning up" on the spread between the two rates by redeeming credit card charges from tourists and taking full advantage of the spread to add mucho Bhat to their coffers. ( Difficult to imagine that Thai Banks would actually do something like that! )

.

[thaimate]

LM, I left out mention of Ayudhya because....

1. I personally haven't tried using any of their ATMs lately, so I can't vouch for them...and

2. I've seen conflicting reports in the various threads about whether they are or are not charging the 150 baht at present. And other reports saying they will be charging soon.

Either way, Ayudhya for certain is doing DCC (Dynamic Currency Conversion) and its resulting crappy exchange rate on MasterCard transactions.

Maybe others here can clarify whether Ayudhya still belongs on the fee-free list or not...

tried them yesterday and charge was confirmed so used govt savings bank

[jfchandler]

Post in another thread here produced a link to the UOB web site and a PDF file announcement there saying UOB plans to start charging the 150 baht fee. Actually, the memo included a date for starting to charge the fee that has already long passed. So presumably, they're just late/behind schedule in getting it done.

Government Savings Bank is NOT a member of the Thai Bankers Assn. that launched this fee. So there is some hope that GSB will remain fee-free.

[hyperdimension]

I was looking for an explanation back then also -- this doesn't really "explain" it, but the best reasoning that I was able to find at the time was that the higher rate was how Thailand viewed the value of its currency on the international market, and the lower rate was how the Thai currency was viewed externally by the real world outside of Thailand.

SurfTrader, I was looking more for an explanation in relation to exchange rates when using an ATM. I was getting excellent rates at the ATM, whereas, if I can recall, the Visa web site during that time was showing the inferior offshore rates. So this does not fit with Jim's and others' statements that ATM rates are set by Visa or MasterCard.

[jfchandler]

HD, we've had more discussion and elaboration of this lately...

I'm sure it's true that VISA and MC set exchange rates somewhere that influence what happens with foreign ATM transactions, and maybe even serve as the baseline rate.

But as we clearly demonstrated this week and explained in prior posts here, different VISA cards from different U.S. banks clearly are yielding very different real net exchange rates when used at the same day/time here in Thailand, even when using the same Thai bank's ATM.

So the only likely explanation for this is that U.S. banks, even when they claim to be fee-free for foreign transactions, are taking varying amounts for themselves.

So apart from the issue of avoiding Thai banks that are now charging the 150 baht fee, the real difference in what net exchange rate you get is not what Thai ATM you use here, but instead, what home country bank's ATM card are you using to make the withdrawals.

[Langsuan Man]

Today, Monday May 25, 14:00, US E*trade Visa branded ATM card

Bank of Ayudhya ATM, Carefour Pattaya, 20,000 THB, No FEE rate 34.32

Government Savings Bank ATM, Tukcom, Pattaya, 10,000 THB, No Fee rate 34.32

Copied and pasted online bank detail :

In Process ATM BAY CARRFOUR PATAYA KL... -582.67

In Process ATM GSB TUEKCOM PATTAYA FL... -291.33

[JimGant]

I was looking more for an explanation in relation to exchange rates when using an ATM. I was getting excellent rates at the ATM, whereas, if I can recall, the Visa web site during that time was showing the inferior offshore rates. So this does not fit with Jim's and others' statements that ATM rates are set by Visa or MasterCard.

HyperD, there *was* a significant difference between MC and Visa rates, with MC* apparently using the less-advantageous offshore rate, at least for a time. It was Visa that was giving the onshore rate. Here's a quote from a thread from a few years back. Also, the link to that thread:

From the link above for VISA it shows $1 today converts to 34.83 (which is clearly the onshore rate). I have just phoned Mastercard in the States (free phone through Skype - they don't seem to have a web page showing current exchange rates) and their rate today for $1 is 32.64 (which is clearly the OFFSHORE rate).

See the full thread HERE

So, if you had a MC/Cirrus* branded card in those strange dual-rated days, you probably took a hit. The banks' ATM owners had no say over the rate the networks* were giving -- and as I've said, that's the rate they're stuck with due to their contractual relationship to the network (except, MC does allow DCC for ATM owners -- while Visa apparently does not).

* As the linked article explains, issuing banks have the latitude to NOT accept the network's suggested rate, but apply one of their own. But, this is all smoke and mirrors -- as it's the exact same thing as accepting the network's rate -- and adding variable fees to it. However, by setting a less advantageous rate for the cardholder,they can then -- with a straight face and crossed fingers -- advertise that they "charge no fees." Arghhhhh!

And, it's just possible that one or more issuing banks of Visa cards were setting offshore rates. Nothing to prevent this. However, when it came to the network rates, set by MC and Visa, apparently only MC used the less-favorable offshore rate.

But the bottom line remains: It's not the ATM owner setting the rate -- what you get is entirely dependent on the network you ride -- and/or the issuing bank. (Again, we're not talking DCC.)

[ernieK24]

I am going to post this with a certain amount of caution.

I have transfered monies from foreign banks (HSBC, BofA, etc.) by several different methods over the years.

What the original poster, and others said, is true.

No matter what you have convinced yourself over the years regarding paying fees on ATM cash withdrawals....think of it this way.

Do you think banks are in business to provide services, for free?

No matter how you figure it, everyone who withdraws cash in Thai baht from any Thai ATM, using a card from a foreign bank, has been paying SOME (my emphasis) kind of fee all along. Just one not easily visible.

I have had silly arguements with friends who insisted they don't get charged a cent for cash withdrawals via their First Bank of Podunk, Idaho account.

Of course they get charged, in one way or another. Either the bank has a clear policy, and shows it on the ATM screen (like Citigroup), or they ding you at the end of the statement cycle with "international transaction fees", or they just shave a few tenths on the exchange rate. And there are a few other ways, but I don't want to bore you with the details. How many people know how to do a line by line audit of their statement, and have access to the FX rate on the day the transfer went through?

Wake up, people. Using an ATM to live on has never been the most efficient and cost effective way to tranfer money here- the cost and fees were simply hidden.

Hi McGriff, I understand your points, and I think people are trying to find the way that is most favorable in getting money here. Pass along your ideas on alternatives to ATM withdrawals, as my last wire-transfer using easy SWIFT codes to Siam Commercial Bank cost me a service fee of 50.00 USD at the originating bank in the USA. Are there alternatives to ATM withdrawals and wire transfers?

[ernieK24]

I don't know where a lot of you guys are getting your figures from. I withdraw 10,000 baht from an ATM machine, ANY machine that doesn't charge the 150 baht, and there aren't many left, five or six times a month, for my living expenses here in Pattaya. When I get home I check on my computer. I divide the 10,000 baht by the amount they deducted from my account back in the U.S., which gives me the exact exchange rate.

I then bring up the daily exchange rate from Bangkok Bank, for that day, and it matches almost exactly.....maybe a few satang different.

Three days in a row, Saturday, Sunday over here and Monday, (memorial day over in the US). the banks were closed all three days, and the exchange rate was exactly the same for the "TT" rate, (the rate you get for an ATM W/D). and the amount debited from my account on all three days was exactly the same for three days, and exactly matched the exchange rate for three days.

When I bought the house in Pattaya, I withdrew 900,000 baht from Citibank in the U,S. with a SWIFT transfer, the baht was 38 then, took two days cost me $30.....When I bought the car I withdrew 380,000 baht from Citibank in the US, it was 36 then, it cost me $30 and took two days. These are facts. Somebody's full of it. ErnieK

[JimGant]

and the exchange rate was exactly the same for the "TT" rate, (the rate you get for an ATM W/D)

If you're getting the TT rate for an ATM withdrawal, you're paying a fee of some sort, as has been discussed ad nauseum.

These are facts.

Yep, dey is. And I'm happy to see you know how to do a wire transfer.....

Somebody's full of it.

My condolences.

[jackbox]

Last week a Bank of Ayudhya ATM said it was going to charge the fee, but then I wasn't charged a fee. So I assume they are in the process of programming it and so far have jsut go to the notification on the screen. By now they are probably actually charging the fee.

[jfchandler]

I then bring up the daily exchange rate from Bangkok Bank, for that day, and it matches almost exactly.....maybe a few satang different.

Three days in a row, Saturday, Sunday over here and Monday, (memorial day over in the US). the banks were closed all three days, and the exchange rate was exactly the same for the "TT" rate, (the rate you get for an ATM W/D).

Ernie, thanks for posting and contributing to this discussion.... But I do need to correct you on something that many people seem to have the wrong idea about...

The buying TT rate posted on many Thai bank web sites is NOT the target or optimal exchange rate amount for ATM transactions. Various of us are using bank debit cards that pay a better rate that typically match something called the Interbank Exchange Rate (IER), which usually is about 15 satang better per U.S. $ than the buying TT rate.

If your card is giving you the buying TT rate, then you're doing OK.. But just be aware, you could be doing better. The difference between getting the buying TT rate and the better IER rate is simply a function of what ATM card/home bank you're using.

For example, I have one U.S. bank VISA debit card that, when I use it in LOS, regularly pays less than the TT rate. I also have a Schwab VISA debit card that regularly pays/matches the much higher IER rate. And as you can read in prior posts in this thread, none of the Thai banks show the IER rate on their web sites.

Look at the X-rates.com web site for the exchange rate for the currency you use. They seem to show rates that approximate the IER rate. That's what you want to look for in terms of a target exchange rate.

Not all VISA or MCs are created the same. And it's not the Thai bank ATM that you use that determines the rate (apart from avoiding banks that charge the 150 baht fee). It's the home bank/card you use that makes the difference.

Edited May 26, 2009 by jfchandler