Red Shirts Set Up At Sanam Luang

[Journalist]

Does AV have any political beliefs at all?

In a western classification? He's closest Thailand has to social democrats.

What are the chances (in percentage terms) that he will use that do-gooder social and liberal conscience to shut down our nightlife?

[Plus]

your personal 50% can be centered on 55% left or 43 percenrt Right for example.

You may agree with one sides 2 points and abhor the other 15 points attached to that side,

and visa versa.

Think of this model - different forces pulling an object in different directions. Let's say something like a North-West force, South-East force etc, usually these forces are rougly equal, so the obects just hovers around the same place, maybe slowly gliding towards "progress".

Now imagine two really strong, overwhelming forces that are pulling in opposite directions, say East and West, then North-West force will not add any visible movement towards North, only contribute to the Western force. The object's movement becomes effectively binary, whatever North-South fluctuations are there become insignificant.

That's the situation with the Thai society is now. Yes, people themselves are not binary numbers, but the resultant movement is.

>>>

The split is is not along democracy/dictatorship line, btw, it's a lot more fundamental than that, almost like archetypal good vs evil. So when lefties talk about representative democracy, they are introducing some non-bipolar force, but the movement in that direction is invisible, all we see that Thaksin's force got an extra push.

Representative democracy in itself looks fine by both reds and yellows. The contention is that yellows think about representing people, the government as a servant. The reds talk about giving absolute power to representatives.

Lefties, on the other hand, mean a "neutral" combination of the two, but when they are standing under huge Thaksin's banners it reads as support for electing masters, not servants of the people to the government.

That's Thai leftists, btw. I can't really think of western leftism that would throw unequivocal support behind a party controlled by richest capitalist in the country, with a history of some serious human rights abuses.

[Plus]

What are the chances (in percentage terms) that he will use that do-gooder social and liberal conscience to shut down our nightlife?

I think he avoids thinking about what you call "our" nightlife.

He's not a crusader, I think he sees himself as an enabler, just creating an environment where others can do whatever they want. He thinks that his job and his input is to create "correct" environmental variables.

[Koo82]

I think the point about ascertaining the actual source of the photos,

goes to ascertaining WHO is feeding us this information about the Reds.

This question becomes valid because of the distinct changes in Koo's posting

even in the SAME posting, that has change noticably during the last several months.

What was once her hagiography for Thaksin, now comes across more professionally scripted.

Not saying Koo doesn't post it, or believe it, but the presence of another hand involved is noticeable.

The Admin warning about proper attribution still stands if she HERSELF did NOT shoot the images.

She may well have permission, not saying she doesn't, but from what entity?

If it IS the Redshirt Leadership assigning someone to coach her, then that might well be

a political entity trying to do or sway politics on the TVF bbbs counter to TVF rules.

Discussing politics or having differing opinions is not the same as

an organization actively trying to manipulate the TVF.

Being a red member

In my early days posting about politics, I was laughed at for being a newbie.

When my newbie status ended, I was questioned for being a fake Thai. I didn't see those posts until someone PMed me. I just posted and exited many days without reading any posts as I couldn't stand being laughed at as naive and brain washed. I signed up with youtube, listed my location outside Thailand and I strictly posted in English. People PMed me in Thai!

Yellow members here questioned if I'm the red leader, Khun Thaksin's boyfriend, Khun Thaksin's wife or daughters or son, Khun Thaksin's girlfriend or Khun Thaksin himself. No to all. I'm just a regular red who quietly went with the reds 3 times with no money paid. First time at Parliament House but Abhisit announced his policies at Ministry of Foreign Affairs (law does not allow this). Second time at Government House and 3rd time at Baan Si Sao where Prem lives, GH and Equestrian Statue of King Rama V. I said it in forums a few times so you know that photos from Sanam Luang, Wat Phai Kiew... are not from me.

I came back to the site I knew earlier and chatted there. I asked some members and no one knows this forum. I did not see those posts in TVF about me being author of photos or not. I only saw this time because this thread does not have many replies.

How can I manipulate anything here? What can I contribute to the red success by posting in a forum having farangs and foreigners who cannot vote and yellow posters who don't want to read what the reds say? After I went with the reds 3 times, I feel I should make it clear here as foreigners may think the reds are paid to protest. I then went back to posting in TVF and find so much fun arguing with yellow members.

Members now said my grammar and writing style have been improved tremendously and wondered if I'm still the same member or several people post under one account. I got the attention. In my early day I was ignored and ignored.

To me, photos here are for fun. I've seen in this forum tons of photos of Khun Thaksin in prison, crying, in girl dress with make up on, in foot rug, in PAD banner printed "Fking Thaksin cannot overthrow our ____".

So what harm can I do when I post the red meeting pictures? They are quickly pushed down when posts being built up and no one notices. Abhisit and his people already said they're not worried about the red protests. All tv channels are Pro-Abhisit. Even the newspaper cartoon corner is now used by Abhisit's people. Why worry in a forum?

To answer your question, some pictures are forwarded to my email, from links posted in saturdayvoice website and konthaiuk website, from flickr, picasa, UDD website, prachatai website, and some are taken by myself. Next time I'll post the sources.

[Journalist]

What are the chances (in percentage terms) that he will use that do-gooder social and liberal conscience to shut down our nightlife?

I think he avoids thinking about what you call "our" nightlife.

He's not a crusader, I think he sees himself as an enabler, just creating an environment where others can do whatever they want. He thinks that his job and his input is to create "correct" environmental variables.

Excellent, as that is an arena in which many do feel more emotionally invested.

Your new leader can putz around like Isaiah Berlin, feeling like he brings liberty to all.

a forum having farangs and foreigners who cannot vote

What, what, what? Our labyrinthine, internecine, toilet paper fights count for nothing in Thailand? NOBODY is taking any notice of our wisdom??

You grieve us mortally !

RIGHT! Lets forget the last half million posts, .....from the beginning then, lets marshal our arguments and start again. And I want you all to really try hard this time - in case anyone signficant is watching !

Edited May 19, 2009 by Journalist

[grandpops]

It's generally considered a good sign and a victory when your opponents start attacking you and trying to have you banned or censored.

It was a snivelling attack on you by a sore loser who could not match your common sense and honesty in posting on here.

Well done Koo, keep posting. Not all falangs have a superior elitist air to them and a lot of us are certainly not on the side of the Junta.

[justanothercybertosser]

Does AV have any political beliefs at all?

In a western classification? He's closest Thailand has to social democrats.

I very much doubt if Abhisit would agree with that assessment.

He is about as typically conservative as you can possibly be, by upbringing, education and convictions, in a party that has been founded as a conservative royalist party, and is for some strange reason part of the Liberal International. Which, in the spectrum of democratic parties, is about as far from Social Democracy as you can possibly get.

But whatever, when Plus decides to summarily redefine political science, then it must be so. The sky is pink and the earth is flat...

Edited May 19, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[sriracha john]

You are entitled to see the world as black and white

It's not just how I see it, it's how it is.

There are millions of people in Thailand who don't profess either ideology but with every little action in their lives they play in the hands of one camp or another, most of the time unwittingly.

Most glaring example is Thai republicans, anti-monarchists and assorted lefties. They had their own agenda but they lent academic credibility to Thaksin's thrust for power, that's why they continue to piss off our yellow posters - despite numerous public denials they continue to support campaign for Thaksin's return. It appears they live in denial themselves - can you imagine what kind of clean up Thaksin would organise if he comes back, considering the number of his foes? That will be on top of his usual suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. Perhaps they think it would blend well with their own ideas on re-engineering the society, by force if necessary.

>>>>

The division has eased up a lot after Songkran, btw. Big camps are now repositioning for "after Thaksin" battle, PTP are quite a lonely bunch without any hope.

I dont feel as emotionally invested in this issue as you probably do.

That's easy to do from 1,769 kilometers outside of Thailand.

[sriracha john]

Does AV have any political beliefs at all?

In a western classification? He's closest Thailand has to social democrats.

What are the chances (in percentage terms) that he will use that do-gooder social and liberal conscience to shut down our nightlife?

Pretty slim chance of Abhisit having any effect whatsoever on Hong Kong nightlife.

[Plus]

Democrat party was founded fifty years ago and no one from those days is around anymore. Chuan and Abhisit are two leaders that represent the party ideologically now.

Dems have been put in a social democrat camp on wikipedia, it's not just MY whim, though that might have been edited out, I don't keep up.

[dbrenn]

Democrat party was founded fifty years ago and no one from those days is around anymore. Chuan and Abhisit are two leaders that represent the party ideologically now.

Dems have been put in a social democrat camp on wikipedia, it's not just MY whim, though that might have been edited out, I don't keep up.

Ah yes! Wikipedia says so

As another poster pointed out, the manifesto of the Dems is true blue conservative. I'd add a hint of khaki to the true blue bit.

I know what you are going to say: "No, they are not, so there". But Plus can't rewrite the laws of political science just to prove everyone else is wrong.

[dbrenn]

Yes it is. The coup wasn't democratic but it didn't pretend to be. Something that masquerades as democracy is no better - in fact it's worse.

So you accept that the coup wasn't democratic, and you justify this with a belief that Thaksin wasn't democratic either. You still haven't explained why you believe that replacing one system that you see as undemocratic, with another system that you also see as undemocratic, is worth bringing Thailand to the brink of civil war for. You can't explain why you believe that a system installed by a nationalistic, xenphobic junta is better than one that can be voted out of office by the people.

Do you really believe that the CDR were not just as venal as Thaksin's lot? Army generals? In Thailand?

Yes i do believe they weren't as venal as Thaksin's bunch - in fact they don't even come close. After the coup they said they would be elections and there were. So please do tell me which general was personally enriched by the coup - names and sums of money please.?

Not as venal as Thaksin's bunch. Hmmm. Try General Saprang K., one of the original CDR members who would look more at home in Burma, and the same guy that Sondhi L wanted to be army chief. This is what all the media (red and yellow) was reporting about him in the months following the coup:

1 - Publicly stated that 'Thailand will always have coups'

2 - As AoT chief, went on a 'fact finding' mission to Europe, spending 7.2 million Baht of public money on him and his gang, some of whom were members of his family. AoT's profits dropped 90% that year, despite a 17.9% increase in revenue. Where do you think those lost profits went, Rixalix? Inefficiency?

3 - Fired the ToT boss for trying to block an 800 million Baht 'donation' to the Army

4 - Spported the yellow position on dilution of the popular vote

5 - Declared that Thaksin should be banished to live in the jungle

Seems that all that you and the yellow devotees focus on is point 5, ignoring the first four points. Why is that?

All the above was reported in the papers of noth red and yellow persuasion at the time. How do you reconcile this with your anti-corruption stance?

And we haven't even started talking about Newin yet, who Abhisit owes his job to. Can't you smell the hypocrisy yet?

Not at all hel_l bent on lumping people into a group. You asked me why people who do support Thaksin shouldn't be able to express their views without being lambasted and i agreed that if they do support Thaksin then they shouldn't feel the need to hide it - that they do tells its own story.

P.S. "criminal" Thaksin requires no speech marks.

Goes back to my original point. There are probably a lot less Thaksin supporters here than you would like to believe. All you can do when your argument fails is keep tryng to convince yourself that everyone who dosn't share your viewpoint must be a rabid Thaksn supporter, and is therefore worthy of censure for having 'criminal' associations.

Edited May 20, 2009 by dbrenn

[Plus]

As another poster pointed out, the manifesto of the Dems is true blue conservative.

You either don't read or have no built in aversion to lying without any shame.

What that other poster said was:

He is about as typically conservative as you can possibly be, by upbringing, education and convictions, in a party that has been founded as a conservative royalist party..

I was just about to point out that party and politicians are judged by their ideology, not upbringing and education, and here "dbrenn" cites this non-existent "manifesto".

That Wiki entry has been edited out, predictably.

One can get a glimpse of what it said less than two years ago, thanks to Thaivisa search facility:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Anti-coup-Le...15#entry1452315

>>>

I'm not trying to argue a particular position here, just protesting against "Plus decides to summarily redefine political science".

People who were writing that wiki entry had a similar outlook. I don't know how is redefining political scence here, I see some unknown hacks editing wikipedia to reverse party's political label, though.

[Journalist]

2 - As AoT chief, went on a 'fact finding' mission to Europe, spending 7.2 million Baht of public money on him and his gang, some of whom were members of his family. AoT's profits dropped 90% that year, despite a 17.9% increase in revenue. Where do you think those lost profits went, Rixalix? Inefficiency?

One of the first acts of coup leaders was to dish out to themselves and friends lucrative directorships of key SOEs and transport companies.

I dont feel as emotionally invested in this issue as you probably do.

That's easy to do from 1,769 kilometers outside of Thailand.

Well, thats precisely my point. I realise that people sitting in the middle of it all are likely to perceive it in more absolute terms and be more passionate.

By Abhisit interfering with 'our' nightlife, I mean 'our' in terms of the collective consciousness of shared beastliness. Nobody owns Thai nightlife in the figurative sense. It belongs to the world.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Journalist

[tig28]

I wasn't refering to "the camp" being criminal, i was refering to Thaksin, who as you rightly point out has been CONVICTED.

hi rixalex

This "criminality" you so loudly proclaim was a very weak 5 -- 4 decision that Thaksin had abused the power of his government position by signing a form acknowledging his wife's purchase of land. It was never a "fraud" or "corruption" charge as so many posters are fond of claiming.

Considering the huge efforts by the junta to implicate him in criminal wrong doing (commenced immediately after the coup) it amazes me that after 18 months of frantic investigation that this was the best they could come up with !!!

All subsequent charges are allegations.

[Plus]

All subsequent charges are allegations.

We are not in the courtroom now, no need to use lawyer speak and raise objections at every turn.

Not very long ago people like that argued on TV from the point of "Thaksin is innocent until found guilty". Now that he is convicted they say "this conviction means nothing and everything else is allegations".

With lawyers we know that their job is not to tell the truth but to defend their client. What about these TV members?

[dbrenn]

As another poster pointed out, the manifesto of the Dems is true blue conservative.

You either don't read or have no built in aversion to lying without any shame.

What that other poster said was:

He is about as typically conservative as you can possibly be, by upbringing, education and convictions, in a party that has been founded as a conservative royalist party..

I was just about to point out that party and politicians are judged by their ideology, not upbringing and education, and here "dbrenn" cites this non-existent "manifesto".

That Wiki entry has been edited out, predictably.

One can get a glimpse of what it said less than two years ago, thanks to Thaivisa search facility:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Anti-coup-Le...15#entry1452315

>>>

I'm not trying to argue a particular position here, just protesting against "Plus decides to summarily redefine political science".

People who were writing that wiki entry had a similar outlook. I don't know how is redefining political scence here, I see some unknown hacks editing wikipedia to reverse party's political label, though.

Semantics again, my dear Plus . "He is about as typically conservative as you can possibly be, by upbringing, education and convictions, in a party that has been founded as a conservative royalist party" and "True Blue conservative" conveys exactly the same meaning: one who has a very conservative point of view. Look it up.

To call me a liar for that mekes me feel that I should add poor language skills to your long list of other charming idiosyncrasies, like flatly denying that the CDR was xenophobic, in spite of such a wealth of abundant evidence to the contrary.

And for your information, Wikipedia is an open forum, so everyone can edit it - not just "unknown hacks". In the absence of first hand experience of a topic, the important thing that you should bear in mind when using a tool like Wikipedia is where the information comes from, and what citations are used to support the information.

Edited May 20, 2009 by dbrenn

[TAWP]

I like to congratulate Koo82 for once again having posted a message that far goes above her normal level of English.

[tig28]

All subsequent charges are allegations.

We are not in the courtroom now, no need to use lawyer speak and raise objections at every turn.

Not very long ago people like that argued on TV from the point of "Thaksin is innocent until found guilty". Now that he is convicted they say "this conviction means nothing and everything else is allegations".

With lawyers we know that their job is not to tell the truth but to defend their client. What about these TV members?

Hi Plus

Well you couldn't be more wrong if you tried --- from the initial split decision of that tribunal I expressed my dismay over the weakness of that decision --- and of the charge itself!! The screams of outrage over such a ghastly crime ----- Interpol---- kidnap squads --- et al. A joke certainly. Sadly ... some were serious. Perhaps even the poster I was replying to seriously feels the charge had substance ---- who knows ??

But after 18 months of intense effort ---- it seemed to be a very poor result. Immediately after the coup I believed that the correct action had been taken to remove a bad/corrupt PM. After all the strenuous allegations I was certain they would come up with a little more (corruption etc) than ----- that charge!!!!! But no --- 18 months later and that was the best they could at the time ------ how very very sad!

Frankly I am surprised by then they didn't have photographic evidence of T. handing ammunition to Oswald inside the book repository.

Plus --- if you really think that the word "allegation" is 'lawyer speak' there is not really a lot I can say to you ---- unfortunately that observation seems just more than a little silly to me. Sorry!

[TAWP]

Tig28>> You are still failing to grasp that all other cases are on hold since he is out of the country? It would seem that even investigations into those cases not yet been filed for charges towards him is taking a snail-speed as the police involved don't do more than they have to...but that isn't the courts fault nor an indication that he isn't a criminal.

Edited May 20, 2009 by TAWP

[Plus]

Semantics again, my dear Plus . "He is about as typically conservative as you can possibly be, by upbringing, education and convictions, in a party that has been founded as a conservative royalist party" and "True Blue conservative" conveys exactly the same meaning: one who has a very conservative point of view.

What you said was "the manifesto of the Dems is true blue conservative". Abihisit's upbringing and education do not equal Democrat manifesto.

And what about Abhisit's convictions that makes him "true blue conservative"? His opposition to privatising public utilities? I think at one point he even wanted to nationalise PTT. Providing free water and electricity? That was Dem's idea adopted by Samak administration. His expanding free education? His plan to scrap charging 30 baht payments altogether?

And what is conservative about Democrat policies overall?

So far you only cite another poster's off hand remark.

And for your information, Wikipedia is an open forum, so everyone can edit it - not just "unknown hacks". In the absence of first hand experience of a topic, the important thing that you should bear in mind when using a tool like Wikipedia is where the information comes from, and what citations are used to support the information.

Their citation is Chang Noi's article from 2002, but the article itself has absolutely nothing to support Wikipedia assertion. Maybe that's why it is not linked from wiki.

Two years ago Democrats were described as social democrats. There has been hundreds of revisions since and it has been re-labeled as center-right, god knows why, but might have something to do with online red activism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Part...nd)#cite_note-0

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=66602

[Plus]

There's about a dozen of cases in courts pending Thaksin's return.

None of them was any kind of revelation - they all have been extensively covered in the media while he was still in power, but it took the coup to finally move them from newspages and into the courts.

For examlple everyone always knew that Thaksin was always in full control of Shin Corp, despite moving the company into his children's names.

Sometimes I really want to puke when I hear someone say "allegations" with a straight face.

[justanothercybertosser]

Dems have been put in a social democrat camp on wikipedia, it's not just MY whim, though that might have been edited out, I don't keep up.

very good, Plus, just make things up as you go. That would be a rather large "edited out", from one political extreme to the other in one edit...

Quote from Wikipedia:

"The party upholds a centre-right, royalist, socially conservative, and economically liberal position."

Here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(Thailand)

[tig28]

Tig28>> You are still failing to grasp that all other cases are on hold since he is out of the country? It would seem that even investigations into those cases not yet been filed for charges towards him is taking a snail-speed as the police involved don't do more than they have to...but that isn't the courts fault nor an indication that he isn't a criminal.

Hi TAWP

Thanks for your poorly judged response --- I think I was aware of that fact--- believe it or not. If you chose to actually read my posts re this you surly would have noted that I was directly addressing that one particular charge --- hence '18 months later and that was the best they could at the time". This is what my post addressed ---- that original pathetic charge and weak verdict.

The single line I devoted to subsequent charges was in a vain attempt to discourage the "usual suspects" from their "usual" rant ------- resoundingly unsuccessfully!! Where is the Baygon when its needed??

Are you somehow suggesting that these other charges are actually more than allegations??

If you wish to point out that in your opinion Thaksin should not have fled the country whilst on bail for that origional charge --- you might try simply saying that --- you might ever be right.

[TAWP]

Tig28>> You are still failing to grasp that all other cases are on hold since he is out of the country? It would seem that even investigations into those cases not yet been filed for charges towards him is taking a snail-speed as the police involved don't do more than they have to...but that isn't the courts fault nor an indication that he isn't a criminal.

Hi TAWP

Thanks for your poorly judged response --- I think I was aware of that fact--- believe it or not. If you chose to actually read my posts re this you surly would have noted that I was directly addressing that one particular charge --- hence '18 months later and that was the best they could at the time". This is what my post addressed ---- that original pathetic charge and weak verdict.

The single line I devoted to subsequent charges was in a vain attempt to discourage the "usual suspects" from their "usual" rant ------- resoundingly unsuccessfully!! Where is the Baygon when its needed??

Are you somehow suggesting that these other charges are actually more than allegations??

If you wish to point out that in your opinion Thaksin should not have fled the country whilst on bail for that origional charge --- you might try simply saying that --- you might ever be right.

I see that you failed to get the point.

You alluding to a proclaimed 'weak' case is not really giving it a balanced view as we would very easily be seeing a more balanced view if he came back and allowed the tial of the cases to take place...correct?

When that happens I will adjust my position on the cases brought towards him.

[Plus]

Dems have been put in a social democrat camp on wikipedia, it's not just MY whim, though that might have been edited out, I don't keep up.

very good, Plus, just make things up as you go. That would be a rather large "edited out", from one political extreme to the other in one edit...

Quote from Wikipedia:

"The party upholds a centre-right, royalist, socially conservative, and economically liberal position."

Here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(Thailand)

Here what is said on December 31, 2007, before some "Patiwat" changed it:

The Democrat Party (Thai: พรรคประชาธิปัตย์ Phak Prachathipat) is Thailand's oldest existing political party and, prior to the 2006 Thailand coup, was the largest opposition party. It had a center-left and liberal ideology, although after leader Abhisit Vejjajiva became party leader, it copied many populist policies from the more popular Thai Rak Thai party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=180089121

Patiwat changed the last sentence to:

It had a royalist and conservative ideology, although after leader Abhisit Vejjajiva became party leader, it copied many populist policies from the more popular Thai Rak Thai party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=181121429

And then another guy, gr8opinionater changed it to:

The party upholds a centre-right royalist and socially conservative ideology.

On December 3, 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=255592698

This last one also added the irrelevant citation of Chang Noi's article, without even providing a link.

You can read up these "editors" personal pages there, too. They are as biased as they come, both would feel at home among Thaivisa red posters.

>>>>

And in a good tradtion of red posters, no one even attempts to explain how Democrat policies or Abhisit convictions make them center-right conservatives.

There's one bloke on Wiki who sheds the light, though:

"Their social politics are conservative, as they are against abortion and gay rights, while their economical politics are liberal, as they believe in low taxes and a small government."

Yeah, he nailed it. Abortion and gay rights as a litmus test for Thai political parties...

[TAWP]

Note: 'gr8opinionater' has a history of distorting the thai-related wikipages. His constant abuse was one of the reasons I don't even bother.

[tig28]

Hi TAWP

"You alluding to a proclaimed 'weak' case is not really giving it a balanced view as we would very easily be seeing a more balanced view if he came back and allowed the tial of the cases to take place...correct?"

Well not really ---- irrespective of the merits (or not) of the subsequent charges brought against him ---- that original charge was a very poor result after the huge effort that was put in by several different investigative bodies over a period of 18 months --- tasked by the Junta with nothing else but to gather evidence to destroy Thaksin. That the charge was carried by a mere 5 -- 4 majority simply underlines that weakness.

The fact that I ( like you) happen to believe that Thaksin was likley guilty of some/all of the other charges has naught to do with the fact that all the other charges are --- untill proven --- nothing more than allegations.

If he had not chosen to leave the country --- after that particular verdict ---- would he have been justly treated --- I sincerly believe not. But that is of little import now.

"balanced view" ---- I certainly am impressed now --- that is exactly what seems to be missing in all this furore over the single conviction against T.

Should we be devoting just some of our outrage to decry the vast corruption of others ?? The military perhaps ?? On the corruption justiceometer ---- compared the them --- Thaksin is but an amateur. Come on TAWP show a little "balance" ---- when you scream loud about what you believe is Thaksin corruption cast your net a little wider --- where there is ample evidence of massive corruption --- killings --- intimidation --- election tampering. Or not !!!

"When that happens I will adjust my position on the cases brought towards him."

With respect --- I very much doubt that would happen. Maybe I am wrong.

[justanothercybertosser]

You can read up these "editors" personal pages there, too. They are as biased as they come, both would feel at home among Thaivisa red posters.

And in a good tradtion of red posters, no one even attempts to explain how Democrat policies or Abhisit convictions make them center-right conservatives.

This is one of the reasons why wikipedia has to be taken with a grain of salt, and why you should not have quoted it to support your mistaken view.

To answer your question why the Democrats are not Social Democrat, but in the conservative camp:

First of all, the very strong Royalist position makes the party conservative.

Economic liberal policies follows generally accepted conservative lines.

There are no specific pro-union policies, no policies regarding the building of a welfare state. We have seen no drive towards stronger taxation of the wealthy or the corporations - all which are center policies of Social Democrats.

Last but not least - they are not part of the Socialist International, which Social Democrat and Socialist parties are internationally organized in. The Democrats are part of International Liberal. You have to understand though that nowadays "liberal" does not mean the traditional policy of upholding of civil liberties, but pure economic liberalism. Which is about as far as you can get from Social Democrat agenda.

Admittedly, like most Thai parties also the Democrats operate under a veneer of pseudo political policies, while in reality they are dominated by the same regional power politics without much political conviction other than social conservative pro status quo as any other party. They just obfuscate it for the foreign observer slightly better by placing front men that can appear as if the party is comparable to a proper political party. Nevertheless - these front men are from the conservative camp, and not from any social democrat background (just because somebody can express himself in English does not make him Social Democrat).

On the other hand, the former TRT has attracted, next to the many other political and business interests, a large amount of people with a clear Social Democrat background, such as Chaturon Chaisaeng.

Under the present political system it is almost impossible to found a socialist or social democrat party. Only very recently a socialist party has been refused registeration here. Unless the Thai state accepts that Thailand is a pluralistic society, and that the founding of a socialist or social democrat party does not mean the overthrow of the system and immediate revolution, we are stuck with what we have now - mostly conservative parties, and politicians of social democratic backgrounds being forced to go into alliances with parties they would otherwise not.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Edited May 20, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Plus]

I referred to Wikipedia to show that it's not only me who thinks Democrats belong to social-democratic camp, but that point went pass your's and dbrenn's head three times already, I have lost hope.

Being Royalist in Thailand doesn't make it conservative, it's not Europe.

- Economic liberal policies

Such as what? No party in the world states that it's against economic developement. Which policies disqualify them from being social democrats? Which Democrat policies do not carry a burden of social responsibility with them?

- No pro-union policies

Actually it was the Democrats that introduced laws protecting workers after 1997 crisis. Minimum six month severance payments, for example

- No welfare state

Yeah, as if free water, electricity, transport, education and what not is not part of their platform.

- No taxes for the rich

Just last week Korn was talking about introducing unitilised land holding tax, admitting that inheritance tax would take longer to implement. They plan to start collecting land taxes them from next fiscal year.

That's the reality on the ground, not yours or gr8opinionated wishful thinking.