Vehicle Registration In Farang Name

[brahmburgers]

hey all, sorry for the long post, but it was written to be sent as a 'letter to the Editor' to the newspaper.

The abbreviated version is: mega hassles, catch 22, biases for me - trying to simply get a vehicle registered in my name. Ironically, the same vehicle get put in my name in Payao just a few days earlier, but the change over to C.Rai is proving convoluted and near impossible. If you want some details, read on......

One expects Thai bureaucracy to be unnecessarily difficult at times, but my situation has devolved to ridiculousness. My dilemma involves trying to get an automobile registered in my name. Actually, I was able to get it in my name five days earlier, in a neighboring province, with only three full days of bureaucratic wrangling. The problem now is getting the registration transferred to the office in the province where I reside. Both offices are in northernmost Thailand, and are just three hours drive apart, yet it’s as though they were in different countries, as one office doesn’t give any credence to what the other office has done, but that’s the secondary impediment. The underlying problem is a farang’s ongoing challenge of proving his place of residence. I say ‘ongoing’ because it’s not enough to do the ponderous process (roughly two full days with hired help) once every so often. Thai bureaucracy requires the process to be done independently for each order of business. In other words, if I apply for a license, I need that proof of residence (or proof that I exist). However, if I apply for another license (Thailand has different license processes/cards for cars and motorcycles) a week later, I am compelled to spend another two full days in order to get identical identity papers

As it that weren’t enough, the same redundant process would be required independently to register a motorbike a week after that, and then the process would have to be repeated if I were to register another vehicle. So you see the pattern here, each individual action a farang does, which involves a vehicle, requires a separate process of gaining proofs of residence/existence. A passport and proper visa are also required. To complicate these processes further, there are two types of official proofs – so you might get one type, and find out later that you need the other type – thereby necessitating a repeat of the whole burdensome process. But wait, that’s too easy.

One of my more recent two day trips to get yet another proof of residence/existence involved getting a voucher from a person with a Thai name (because Thai bureaucracy abhors documents with a farang name). I went through the whole process, and found out belatedly (it was all written in Thai) they had mistakenly put the Thai person’s name on my personal residency voucher, rather than my name – even though the whole purpose of the paperwork was to get it in my name. Then I find out later still, that it was the wrong type of residency/existence voucher, and the whole process had to be done anew, again necessitating the involvement of my Thai acquaintance (for his Thai name), - with no guarantee the entire process from Immigration office would be sufficient to please the requirements of bureaucrats at another office in a different jurisdiction.

I realize that nearly all farang in Thailand get such things done in their wives’ or girlfriends’ names. It’s obvious how that would simplify such bureaucratic processes. However, some farang are not married, and would still like to get business done in a relatively hassle free manner. My situation is odd because, though I have a girlfriend in Thailand, she has no Thai ID, so her name cannot be used on any document, registration or otherwise. She’s one of hundreds of thousands of hill tribe people who were born (and their parents were born) in Thailand, though they cannot get Thai ID unless he/she pays tens or hundreds of thousands of baht to a designated village headman. Event then, it’s questionable whether the ID is real. She cannot legally own any motorized vehicle, or get a drivers license, or own a phone service, or get electricity service in her name. She can pulled over and fined any time she’s driving a vehicle, and she cannot legally travel outside her province without prior written approval from a village headman. All those restrictions apply to a person whose family has resided in Thailand for generations. Ironically I, as a farang, have more legal privileges than she, even though I’m being stymied in many ways - when I attempt to keep my legal affairs in order.

The saga of my bureaucratic problems don’t end with just having to repeatedly go back and forth to a distant town to get proof of residence/existence. The latest impediment is being told I need a newly issued drivers license for each added vehicle that I want to register in my name. It’s the type of requirement that is not really legal (and certainly not reasonable, but who said anything about things having to be reasonable?). I asked the person at the counter several time whether that was really true - he assured me it was. Of course it isn’t, and later that afternoon, I mentioned that requirement to a Thai lawyer who chuckled and said it was ridiculous, and he’d never heard of that sort of requirement before – for anyone, Thai or farang.

Here are the options I’m considering……

A. Jumping through ever higher hoops to try to comply with ever more outlandish requirements. That would entail continuing to go back and forth to distant towns to get the paperwork, much of it redundant. This process, is time consuming, tiring, costly, and requires often requesting the assistance of a Thai friend - who also has better things to do than to devote hours per week redundantly vouching for my residency/existence.

B. Getting my farang name put on a ‘Tambian Ban’ (house/residence registration). I’ve been told by a lawyer that it’s possible though (this being Thailand) there’s a different color book for farang (yellow), than for Thais (dark blue). I could attempt to go through this process, though it may be as catch-22 ridden (or worse) than the processes mentioned above. In theory, foreigners can own houses and other improvements on property, but not the land the property sits on. Whether Thai authorities will comply with what’s legally allowed is an open question, and may largely rest upon the individual clerk’s subjective proclivities.

C. Getting married to a Thai wife for the primary reason of avoiding having to spending at least forty days per year dealing with Thai bureaucracy (and no, I don’t have to do visa runs). That works out to an average of one day out of nine. In other words, a single farang resident to keep his affairs legal and above board, may need to devote nearly one day per week, on average, trying to unravel the gordian knot known as Thai bureaucracy.

D. Doing nothing more to try to comply with vehicle registrations. This would involve being outside the law, even though I’d much prefer to keep things legal as much as possible. Catch-22 is a phrase made popular by Joseph Heller in his popular novel by the same name. It refers to bureaucratic morass where; trying to comply with particular regulations entails; trying to do one thing, but finding another thing must be done beforehand. It’s then found that the other thing cannot be done before the previous thing is done beforehand. In other words, it’s an unfixable loop of problems with no logical way to comply.

For Thai bureaucracy, there could be a ‘Catch-44’ in which where a person (in this case a farang) tries mightily to comply with a requirement, but finds the official paper he got (through much time, effort and expense) is not the precisely correct piece of paper. He must therefore go back to get the correct paper. However, the actual correct paper is a changing entity – depending on which desk clerk the person the farang is trying to deal with - so the person trying to comply can never be assured he is complying with the requirements.

There could also be a ‘Catch-66’ within Thai bureaucracy in which the desk clerk takes a dislike to the person he/she has to deal with. The dislike could stem from any of a number of things, including; the physical appearance of that person, his/her ethnicity, lack of sufficient politeness, poor handle on the Thai language, poor posture or body language, annoying smell, bad clothes, lack of jewelry, biases, …..the list could go on and on.

During the protracted challenges mentioned above (BTY, only a portion of impediments were articulated), I had to try and deal with a grandstanding counter clerk who never spoke, but instead shouted everything he had to say, as if he had a large audience. Actually, he did have a captive audience – about thirty customers sitting in chairs in front of him - to get their number called. He didn’t single me out for his loudness. He was an equal-opportunity shouter, and thereby shouted at each person who came to his counter. As if to add to the theatrics of his position, he was standing on a raised wooden platform at his place behind the counter. Additionally, the woman who did the business of making photocopies for people, in a different area of the compound, had a drawn out speech for me - every sentence peppered with the word ‘farang’. I wondered why she was lecturing me, as all I wanted was a couple photocopies – so I could get back to the loud counter clerk. The photocopy lady kept going on and on in broken English, several times asserting things about my situation that weren’t true. I kept wondering why she wouldn’t just do her job and let me be on my way, several times turning my back and walking several paces away, but she kept on talking on and on.

[Texpat]

Sounds about right. You'd feel quite at home in my town.

[PeaceBlondie]

Wow, brahms, what a drag. I think my hill tribe friend said the price to get Thai ID was 25,000 baht in their village.

The land of smiles, eh?

[toybits]

Brahmburgers must have rubbed some people is the wrong way. Also perhaps a good idea to fix up your papers and get a Yellow Tabien Ban if that is possible for your. You could also apply for a retirement visa, apply for "ownership of a unit at the Chiang Rai Condotel", have their management issue you a certification that you are a resident of the condotel, deposit the required amount of cash in your favorite local bank, hop over to Mae Sai immigrations to get necessary documentation needed by the Land Transportation Office.

Or do nothing and just travel to Phayao province to have your vehicle registration renewed - be verbally abused by the copier woman and counter clerks. Your choice really.

[thailife69]

Hi Burger.

A Tambian Ban would be your best way of proceeding if you plan on staying long term and remaining at your address in the far far north.

Once you have gone through all the pain you seem to attract, you will then have a document to prove your residience in Thailand, so long as you have a current visa.

But remember a Tambian Ban is not a proof of property ownership, it just proof of your official residence in Thailand and that of the people that use the property as their official residence. I believe that your yellow book would be an extension of the main blue book.

Here is a good link. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Yellow-Tabie...hn-t156485.html

I also did a post on here about buying a vehicle on a tourist visa while owning a Condo Unit.

Immigration will happily give you a certificate of residence on a tourist visa for the purpose of buying a vehicle. The paper states for which purpose it is. You will have to prove your address in some way, and immigration will be very reluctant to give the residence paper on a hotel address. However when you can prove a proper address (i.e. condo ownership, rental contract on a condo or house etc) they will normally oblige.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Car-Motorcyc...ip-t264100.html

Good luck at reducing the pain.

Edited May 21, 2009 by thailife69

[brahmburgers]

Brahmburgers must have rubbed some people is the wrong way. Also perhaps a good idea to fix up your papers and get a Yellow Tabien Ban if that is possible for your. You could also apply for a retirement visa, apply for "ownership of a unit at the Chiang Rai Condotel", have their management issue you a certification that you are a resident of the condotel, deposit the required amount of cash in your favorite local bank, hop over to Mae Sai immigrations to get necessary documentation needed by the Land Transportation Office.

Or do nothing and just travel to Phayao province to have your vehicle registration renewed - be verbally abused by the copier woman and counter clerks. Your choice really.

You can assume I 'rubbed some people the wrong way' but that simply did not happen, except for a couple moments near the end of the most recent scenario. However, it has not happened the multiple times I've had to go to Mae Sai office (even though they've made several mistakes with my affairs), not the time I went to Payao, and not any of the dozens of times I've had to do redundant things at Chiang Rai - except as mentioned above.

As for Condotel, are you saying just the act of applying for ownership of a unit (but not actually owning one) will get the coveted residence requirement? Sounds odd. As for visas, I have been getting retirement (type O) visas for several years, and it's only been mild hassles. About a 3 day process.

What burns my bisquit is when Thai bureaucrats do the following:

A. intentionally make things as difficult as bureaucratically possible. I and others (remember Simon?) have experienced such things a number of times. It's very much a subjective game for them. In western countries, bureaucracy can be a stone drag, but at least it's somewhat egalitarian. In other words, if you show up at the counter and aren't rude, you'll get options pretty much like the next person. In Thailand, things that should be routine are often subjectively handled. Sometimes officialdom will declare things which are flat out wrong, and even if the customer politely points out the mistake, the official will lose face if he/she acknowledges a mistake, and will stick with their wrong assertion more stubbornly.

Just one of many examples: At Mae Sai, the official needed a signature from a Thai person to move my process along. I suggested that, in order for me to avoid a whole other day burning gas and dealing with bureaucracy, and I could phone the person and have him fax the signed document. He said no. I didn't insist (because I know how thin skinned Thai officialdom is), so I bowed my head and went along with his edict. It so happens he was wrong, as I've had such documents faxed before in the exact same scenario at the same office. However, because he made that statement, he and I knew it would be impossible for him to back down (even if he realized his mistake).

BTW, knowing now, the Catch-22 situation in C.Rai, I would rather take a step back and just deal with Payao once a year. However, I started the process, got my C.Rai metal license plates, and they're withholding my blue registration book (it's registered now in my name, but that means nothing to C.Rai officials, because it was done by Payao officials). So, if I want to get my registration book back, I have to play ball with C.Rai. So my next step is to try and get that yellow Tambian Ban house registration. Wish me luck.

That's just one of a phlanx of unecessary hassles and logjams that have been dished out to me - and a host of others. Similar to that, is the info that they don't divulge, that could be of assistance. For example; the yellow Tambian Ban, that can be gotten by foreigners in some situations, and can be mighty helpful. When has a farang ever had that extremely useful info voluntarily given to him by a Thai? Answer: about as often as a Thai restauranter will ask a customer whether the volume of the music is too loud. In other words: NEVER. There are other examples showing that, but I'm already been too long-winded.

[svenivan]

I don´t know if this is working today but I bought an old Yamaha 650 MC 7 years ago that was registered in BKK.

To pay tax I went to a place to check the MC was safe, then to insurance company to pay insurance and then to Postoffice with the book and all the other documents plus an envelope with my name and address.

I paid the tax, the stamps for the returnenvelope, they sent everything to BKK and 2 weeks after I got the book back and tax was paid.

Very simple !

(So simple so I have not paid tax after that )

[Texpat]

I went to get a tabian baan and the clerk told my wife and I to have a seat.

Several hours later, when all other customers were waited on and had left, she called us up.

It was quickly apparent she had no bloody idea what she was doing.

She said I had to go to my Embassy and get a letter of authenticity stating my passport was authentic. (<deleted>?)

I said, "the same passport immigration has been scruitinizing every three months for the past three years?"

"Yes," that one. Then I have to take it to Khon Kaen to have the passport translated into Thai by the MoFA.

I've read of farangs going to get tabian baans in other cities armed with nothing more than passport, marriage cert, wife's ID card and a smile -- and walking out with the document the same afternoon. The problem with tabian baan is that you HAVE to get it from your local tessaban. That's me screwed.

When a Thai government official has no idea what he/she's doing -- they obfuscate. The customer will walk away disgusted eventually.

[OZEMADE]

I bought 1 Yamaha Nouvo 5 years ago in Pattaya whilst renting a Condo.

A year later I bought a house in my wife's name, a year ago I then traded in my bike and bought a new Nouvo Yamaha in Pattaya. 2 years ago I bought a new Isuzu 4WD in Lopburi and last month I bought a new 500CC Yamaha in Bangkok.

On all occasions I only had to take my Passport and and a copy of it, which states I am Retired, a letter from Immigration stating my address and what I wished to purchase CAR or BIKE, proof of address was either an electric bill, or a telephone bill with my name and address on it.

I have always had them in my name and I have always let the Dealer do the paperwork, except the paperwork from Immigration.

Hope this is a help.

Edited May 21, 2009 by OZEMADE

[toybits]

Sold my motorbike to a retired Farang living at the condotel. He has a unit there. The management gave him the necessary documents. Took him to Mai Sai to get documents needed by the Land transport office. Following day, went to LTO, and registered the bike to his name.

No problems encountered. He did not need a Yellow Tabien Baan. BTW, I have a Yellow Tabien Baan.

Oh! It does help a lot if you dressed up properly and not behave like a hobo. BTW - I am not insinuating anything about you - but I have seen lots of Farang that dress up and behave improperly fromt he perspective of a Thai government official.

Decorum and subservience is the name of the game. You have to give a lot of Krap.

Good luck...

Brahmburgers must have rubbed some people is the wrong way. Also perhaps a good idea to fix up your papers and get a Yellow Tabien Ban if that is possible for your. You could also apply for a retirement visa, apply for "ownership of a unit at the Chiang Rai Condotel", have their management issue you a certification that you are a resident of the condotel, deposit the required amount of cash in your favorite local bank, hop over to Mae Sai immigrations to get necessary documentation needed by the Land Transportation Office.

Or do nothing and just travel to Phayao province to have your vehicle registration renewed - be verbally abused by the copier woman and counter clerks. Your choice really.

You can assume I 'rubbed some people the wrong way' but that simply did not happen, except for a couple moments near the end of the most recent scenario. However, it has not happened the multiple times I've had to go to Mae Sai office (even though they've made several mistakes with my affairs), not the time I went to Payao, and not any of the dozens of times I've had to do redundant things at Chiang Rai - except as mentioned above.

As for Condotel, are you saying just the act of applying for ownership of a unit (but not actually owning one) will get the coveted residence requirement? Sounds odd. As for visas, I have been getting retirement (type O) visas for several years, and it's only been mild hassles. About a 3 day process.

What burns my bisquit is when Thai bureaucrats do the following:

A. intentionally make things as difficult as bureaucratically possible. I and others (remember Simon?) have experienced such things a number of times. It's very much a subjective game for them. In western countries, bureaucracy can be a stone drag, but at least it's somewhat egalitarian. In other words, if you show up at the counter and aren't rude, you'll get options pretty much like the next person. In Thailand, things that should be routine are often subjectively handled. Sometimes officialdom will declare things which are flat out wrong, and even if the customer politely points out the mistake, the official will lose face if he/she acknowledges a mistake, and will stick with their wrong assertion more stubbornly.

Just one of many examples: At Mae Sai, the official needed a signature from a Thai person to move my process along. I suggested that, in order for me to avoid a whole other day burning gas and dealing with bureaucracy, and I could phone the person and have him fax the signed document. He said no. I didn't insist (because I know how thin skinned Thai officialdom is), so I bowed my head and went along with his edict. It so happens he was wrong, as I've had such documents faxed before in the exact same scenario at the same office. However, because he made that statement, he and I knew it would be impossible for him to back down (even if he realized his mistake).

BTW, knowing now, the Catch-22 situation in C.Rai, I would rather take a step back and just deal with Payao once a year. However, I started the process, got my C.Rai metal license plates, and they're withholding my blue registration book (it's registered now in my name, but that means nothing to C.Rai officials, because it was done by Payao officials). So, if I want to get my registration book back, I have to play ball with C.Rai. So my next step is to try and get that yellow Tambian Ban house registration. Wish me luck.

That's just one of a phlanx of unecessary hassles and logjams that have been dished out to me - and a host of others. Similar to that, is the info that they don't divulge, that could be of assistance. For example; the yellow Tambian Ban, that can be gotten by foreigners in some situations, and can be mighty helpful. When has a farang ever had that extremely useful info voluntarily given to him by a Thai? Answer: about as often as a Thai restauranter will ask a customer whether the volume of the music is too loud. In other words: NEVER. There are other examples showing that, but I'm already been too long-winded.

[brahmburgers]

I too have done motorbike renewals at the C.Rai Post Office. Though in more recent years, they had me to go to the big gov't building east of the super hwy. It's added hassle, but at least it do-able.

I've also renewed p.u truck registrations for years on end - and gotten two different Thai driving licenses. No major problems, though a lot of time invested. For the past 6 years I've been doing such things solo, and only experienced moderate hassles, but at least there were options for moving forward with the ponderous processes.

This time is different, as Thai bureaucracy HATES to see a farang name on an official document. So, I've had to claw along - each step of the way. Now I'm at a point where unreasonable and illegal logjams are being put in my path. It's getting near impossible to comply. I guess I could travel back and forth to Mae Sai every so often, each time bringing Thai people along (who I pay for their time) in order to repeatedly get residence/existance proven. I say 'repeatedly' because the a residency voucher from five days earlier may not please the counter clerk who's on duty when you get back. Plus, it may not be the proper type of document (there are at least two types), .....so it's back to Mae Sai, over and over. I've done this process about 5 times since the start of the year.

Mae Sai Imm office is not much help either. They gave me the wrong document at least once, and they hate to converse with farang (reasons: it makes them uncomfortable, it shows their lack of English skills, they're afraid the farang will blow up). They will ALWAYS rather deal with the Asian looking person you're with, even if that person knows nearly nothing of the biz at hand (the only exception is if the farang speaks perfect Thai, and is perfectly polite). Another factor with all these bureaucratic gordian knots is: Thais want everyone to accept what an authority says with no questions. If anyone, especially a farang, questions what an authority decrees, they immediately get defensive and a confrontation could ensue. Sometimes the farang is a mojor factor. Example: Simon. Though Simon was proved to be right in his basic assertion (his passport was valid). Even when it was proved that Simon was legal, it didn't change the authorities' attitude. Simon still lost his ticket, spent time in jail, paid a fine.

Speaking of 'time wasted' - I'm doing a project now with between 5 and 9 local employees. Because I'm having to spend so much time trying to comply with Byzantine Thai bureaucracy, I cannot keep focused on the project. Two basic things happen (besides me getting grumpy) -

A. projects get bolloxed up, because I'm not on hand to give direction.

B. I have to lay people off.

Message for any farang considering moving to Thailand: If you want any property or vehicle in your name - be prepared for the possibility of mega hassles, logjams. If you pay respectable Thais to accompany you, then your chances increase. I'm too invested in C.Rai to simply up and leave. But if it was easy, I'd go to another country. I don't know if there would be less catch-22 situations, but at least I'd have a change of scenery.

Edited May 22, 2009 by brahmburgers

[toybits]

Or you could learn more Thai.

I too have done motorbike renewals at the C.Rai Post Office. Though in more recent years, they had me to go to the big gov't building east of the super hwy. It's added hassle, but at least it do-able.

I've also renewed p.u truck registrations for years on end - and gotten two different Thai driving licenses. No major problems, though a lot of time invested. For the past 6 years I've been doing such things solo, and only experienced moderate hassles, but at least there were options for moving forward with the ponderous processes.

This time is different, as Thai bureaucracy HATES to see a farang name on an official document. So, I've had to claw along - each step of the way. Now I'm at a point where unreasonable and illegal logjams are being put in my path. It's getting near impossible to comply. I guess I could travel back and forth to Mae Sai every so often, each time bringing Thai people along (who I pay for their time) in order to repeatedly get residence/existance proven. I say 'repeatedly' because the a residency voucher from five days earlier may not please the counter clerk who's on duty when you get back. Plus, it may not be the proper type of document (there are at least two types), .....so it's back to Mae Sai, over and over. I've done this process about 5 times since the start of the year.

Mae Sai Imm office is not much help either. They gave me the wrong document at least once, and they hate to converse with farang (reasons: it makes them uncomfortable, it shows their lack of English skills, they're afraid the farang will blow up). They will ALWAYS rather deal with the Asian looking person you're with, even if that person knows nearly nothing of the biz at hand (the only exception is if the farang speaks perfect Thai, and is perfectly polite). Another factor with all these bureaucratic gordian knots is: Thais want everyone to accept what an authority says with no questions. If anyone, especially a farang, questions what an authority decrees, they immediately get defensive and a confrontation could ensue. Sometimes the farang is a mojor factor. Example: Simon. Though Simon was proved to be right in his basic assertion (his passport was valid). Even when it was proved that Simon was legal, it didn't change the authorities' attitude. Simon still lost his ticket, spent time in jail, paid a fine.

Speaking of 'time wasted' - I'm doing a project now with between 5 and 9 local employees. Because I'm having to spend so much time trying to comply with Byzantine Thai bureaucracy, I cannot keep focused on the project. Two basic things happen (besides me getting grumpy) -

A. projects get bolloxed up, because I'm not on hand to give direction.

B. I have to lay people off.

Message for any farang considering moving to Thailand: If you want any property or vehicle in your name - be prepared for the possibility of mega hassles, logjams. If you pay respectable Thais to accompany you, then your chances increase. I'm too invested in C.Rai to simply up and leave. But if it was easy, I'd go to another country. I don't know if there would be less catch-22 situations, but at least I'd have a change of scenery.

[chiangrai]

last time i was in the motor regestration office,near the airport,there was a lady with a "service"shop near the resteraunts,

the working thais use it by dropping off their paperwork on their lunch breaks and picking it up the next day,

she's good and speaks some english and she can "zig-zag" if their's a problem with addresses and such,

she used to work in the motar office so she's well conected.

[mcgriffith]

That may be some good advice.

Get a "fixer".

Pay a small fee to a paper wallah, as it is termed in India.

They can navigate the system, know the people, and get it done.

Don't beat your head against the wall on this issue- life is too short. We're just talking about a motor vehicle registration here.

For the record, I have a retirement extension, live in Chiang Mai, and own 2 motorsai with green books, current reg stickers, etc.

Have had nothing but positive experiences here in CM at both the main Department of Land Transportation, and their One Stop drive through center near Nong Kai bridge.

Good Luck, and I wish you the best.

[chang35baht]

You would leave Thailand because you can`t get your car in your own name. Sounds rather rash. If your rant reflects the way you handle yourself in situations such as the dilemma you`ve had regarding your registration then you`ve no chance. You`ve been here a long time you obviously love the place. Chill out man.

Just curious, after all the time you`ve been living in Chiang Rai, have you not made any friends that will accompany you to Mae sai for free , as a favour?

Edited May 22, 2009 by chang35baht

[brahmburgers]

You would leave Thailand because you can`t get your car in your own name. Sounds rather rash. If your rant reflects the way you handle yourself in situations such as the dilemma you`ve had regarding your registration then you`ve no chance. You`ve been here a long time you obviously love the place. Chill out man.

Just curious, after all the time you`ve been living in Chiang Rai, have you not made any friends that will accompany you to Mae sai for free , as a favour?

I put up with a lot of things, as part of residing in C.Rai. a whole gamut, from the great, the endearing, the bumbling, the inept, the intensely frustrating, the dangerous.

I put my frustrations on a public forum. It's easy to poke holes at such things. Much easier to hide away and be non-communicative. No exposure, no target. I deal with bureaucratic morass about as well as any farang, but the recent events have devolved to near zero options for resolution. I'm seriously thinking of just being illegal on my most recent vehicle, and just taking my chances if worse-case scenario comes along. I can probably slip by, as millions of Thais do, but it could be a hassle if I wanted to sell it someday.

I do have Thai and hill tribe friends, but I won't ask them to devote full days of driving and sitting in gov't offices - in exchange for just the charm of my company. I dont' mind compensating them (with money and meals) for their time.

[Limbo]

I don't recognise your problems.

I rent a house in CR. The landlady and I signed a contract in the beginning of the rental period and

another three times when I needed a vehicle on my name.

You can buy the standard rental contract at any stationer's.

You fill it in together with your landlady and also ask her for a copy of her ID.

You go to Immigration in Maesai, give the people a copy of your passport and visa, rental contract, a nice photograph

of yourself (part in the middle!) and copy ID landlord.

Five minutes later you are outside again with a proof of residence and could be on your way to register a

vehicle on your name.

The service is free, only once a naughty young boy in uniform asked for hundred Baht and put it in his pocket.

The other times I was serviced well.

Also paying tax goes very smooth. If your vehicle is older than six years you have to do the check first in any shop

that shows a wheel with a zig-zag edge (60 Baht for motorcycle and about 250 -?- for cars), pay your insurance at the insurance office and off you are to the 'motor-office' on the road to Ban Farm, not far from Tessaban 6 and the new airport.

Only once it took longer than five minutes.

Limbo

[brahmburgers]

I don't recognise your problems.

I rent a house in CR. The landlady and I signed a contract in the beginning of the rental period and

another three times when I needed a vehicle on my name.

You can buy the standard rental contract at any stationer's.

You fill it in together with your landlady and also ask her for a copy of her ID.

You go to Immigration in Maesai, give the people a copy of your passport and visa, rental contract, a nice photograph

of yourself (part in the middle!) and copy ID landlord.

Five minutes later you are outside again with a proof of residence and could be on your way to register a

vehicle on your name.

The service is free, only once a naughty young boy in uniform asked for hundred Baht and put it in his pocket.

The other times I was serviced well.

Also paying tax goes very smooth. If your vehicle is older than six years you have to do the check first in any shop

that shows a wheel with a zig-zag edge (60 Baht for motorcycle and about 250 -?- for cars), pay your insurance at the insurance office and off you are to the 'motor-office' on the road to Ban Farm, not far from Tessaban 6 and the new airport.

Only once it took longer than five minutes.

Limbo

Thanks, I appreciate that. It's a reminder, or sorts, of earlier times when I did registrations like that and it was relatively painless. I unwittingly tried doing the process in a different manner this time, which appeared to be more legal - and I've been tripped up - by an endless maze of bureaucracy. I'll see about taking a step back and trying to do it the simple way, but it looks like the process has started along this other more legal route (and authorities are keeping my registration book, and they have me pegged). As mentioned earlier, Thai bureaucracy can be subjective. I try mightily to avoid upsetting any of the clerks. But they don't forget a face. And once they get someone pegged - and decide to throw repeated logjams in that person's path, then it makes things difficult.

My plan now is to let time go by - and try getting that elusive yellow 'tambian ban' that may or may not work as well as explained to me by a Thai lawyer - unless the tambian ban is simply too difficult to get - then I'll try something else.

Way back I studied to be a general building contractor in California (btw, I passed the test). Half the studies involved memorizing a 3 inch thick book, as heavy as a phonebook - with thousands of ways for contractors and for customers to protect themselves from legal problems. I soon realized that the reason there were so many detailed things to study, was because precedent had showed the myriad ways that people lie to, and try to cheat one another. It's human nature. Similarly, the Thai bureaucracy (repeatedly having to prove one's residence/existance, etc etc etc) ....stems from that same basic human tenet: some people lie and try to cheat. So, bureaucracy is based on the premise that no one can be believed simply on the basis of what they say. Everything must be formalize it by issuing layers of precautions. Of course, it doesn't work, as some people always find ways to skirt around the telling truth. Therefore, bureaucracy adds more layers of rules - and the imbroglio increases in depth and breadth.

[klikster]

I try mightily to avoid upsetting any of the clerks. But they don't forget a face. And once they get someone pegged - and decide to throw repeated logjams in that person's path, then it makes things difficult.

Maybe they heard about you complaining at the temple.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hoy-Plakang-...se#entry2424347

[madjbs]

You are not the only Farang in Chiang Rai you know. How can you explain the dozens of others who will have cars and bikes registered in their names without trouble?

Why can't you just leave it registered in Payao? You can renew the tax anywhere.

Lastly, it is an easy process to change the registration province, are you sure you just haven't filled in the wrong documents?

Edited May 24, 2009 by madjbs

[brahmburgers]

I try mightily to avoid upsetting any of the clerks. But they don't forget a face. And once they get someone pegged - and decide to throw repeated logjams in that person's path, then it makes things difficult.

Maybe they heard about you complaining at the temple.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hoy-Plakang-...se#entry2424347

Funny you made that connection. Turns out all the concern by locals about the temple complaint - was concern about someone else. I thought they were referring to something I had done 13 months earlier. I said I was sorry. I later found out two things that made it obvious it wasn't me: The complainer had done his complaining a few days prior to the accusation by townsfolk. My little incident was 13 months before that. Also, the complainer was driving a red pick-up (I was told that by two of the townsfolk). My p.u is white.

So, because of my tentative handle on Thai, and they not being able to speak any English, I apologized for something I didn't do - and some farang is driving around in a red p.u. truck thinking .....I don't know what he's thinking, but I wish he'd step forward and take responsibility for his actions.

Edited May 24, 2009 by brahmburgers

[madjbs]

Why has the transport department kept the registration book? Do you know that is often part of the process when you change the province of a car?

[brahmburgers]

Why has the transport department kept the registration book? Do you know that is often part of the process when you change the province of a car?

Yes. It's apparently in process, and they're probably waiting for me to get yet another proof of residence/existence. I have a series of Thai friends who accompany me to try to get such things done. I don't want to rely on just one person, as it's a hassle and time drain for them. Each one has told me of their surprise of how difficult an ordinarily simple procedure it is becoming. The most recent friend, told me there's no hurry, so I'm going to pursue getting a yellow 'tambian ban' (residence voucher for farang). If I'm able to get that, I am hopeful to avoid too many trips to Mae Sai - to repeatedly try and please the many demands for residence - thus far this year, I've done six pieces of business with the Vehicle people (whatever they're called), and each time they request a brand new proof of residence/existence - sometimes five days after seeing it the prior time. Plus, there are at least two different types of proof, so it's a crap shoot getting the correct one from Mae Sai. Last time I got one from there, they put the wrong name on it. I only found out later, when I read the Thai lettering.

Knowing what I know now, I would have kept dealing with Payao, but it's apparently too late now, as the change to C.Rai is in process.