Impeachment Threat Over Buses

[stumonster]

I just saw the in bus CCTV cams on the news - and not being vandal proof they will be inoperable quickly - they look like your basic domestic CMOS cam

[Plus]

I'm saying that they can't buy a bunch of bloody buses. Don't care what the reasons.

Of course they can "buy a bunch of bloody buses" if they wanted to, there's no law against it, is there?

What you are arguing in favour of, is that we should close our eyes to the blatant corruption underlying this deal. Dear Plus, for years you have exposed the corruption that was happening under Thaksin, sad that just because your colour of snouts are now at the trough, you have lost your enthusiasm for honesty and decency. Just close our eyes for the sake of expediency!

I'm not condoning corruption in this deal, my point has nothing to do with it.

And no, they can't buy a bunch of bloody buses, they would have bought they a long time ago if they could.

There's no law against it, Thai state machinery just lacks capabilities.

There are too many conflicting interests - Democrats, BJT, PTP, senators, BMTA, Nesdac, public, media - they all want something different and they all pull in different directions. There's too much squabbling to get anything done.

Possibility of corruption is just one of the obstacles. The deal can be cleaned of that, but then BJT would protest. If BJT is satisfied with the prices, PTP and the media would protest and so on.

And these are structural flaws in how Thai state operates, you can possibly patch this one deal up but the structural flaw means the same problem will reappear again and again and again.

[xbusman]

So, let me see if I understand you Plus. What you are saying is that the Thai political system is flawed to the point where it is dysfunctional to the extreme and incapable of doing this procurement effectively or efficiently. Therefore, because the need for new buses is so great, we have to pay off the entire bureaucracy with huge amounts of cash at the Thai peoples expense to move forward.

I somewhat agree with your interpretation. I dont think anything gets done here without some pretty serious corruption at the Thai peoples expense.

In that light, I have only a few arguments with what is going on in this procurement.

First, and foremost, the level of graft and corruption represented by the numbers is pretty staggering. Now I know the politicians are entitled to steal millions of dollars out of every project but not billions. Corruption here is a cost of business just like labor or cement. If the workers want too much pay, I can just replace them. Unfortunately, we cant replace the bureaucrats. They pretty much have a monopoly on corruption and when they get too greedy, everyone (even the other corrupt bureaucrats) get revolted. As best I can tell that is what is going on here.

Secondly, Thailand should have their own bus manufacturing for local needs. They need to move past banana republic and keep jobs and technology here. I wont go in to the huge benefit of having a local bus builder but just using local labor puts a lot of money back into the economy. Buying imports benefits no one but the Chinese. The quantities they are looking at would easily sustain a home industry.

Lastly, rather than fix the root problem, they are attempting a patch. Basically what they are saying is that since BMTA is incapable of operating efficiently and profitably, they want to outsource the entire operation. We know that the entire BMTA will remain in place without any reduction in staff so they are doubling down in costs in an effort to constrain the losses for the future. I have seen that done by governments in the past and yet to come across any successes.

Again, this whole procurement is wrong, excessive and at best, horribly corrupt. Hopefully the Thai way will prevail and it will thrash around in committee long enough for the next coupe to kill it.

[hammered]

Politicians of all ilk are pretty much discredited. Shame really as they will still be the people to run the copuntry and continue trousering the extra, which since the turn of the millenium has according to those in the know increased. Pity nobody really cares and will with a few exceptions just re-elect the local robber baron they are in hock to.

Such is life.

[Plus]

So, let me see if I understand you Plus. What you are saying is that the Thai political system is flawed to the point where it is dysfunctional to the extreme and incapable of doing this procurement effectively or efficiently. Therefore, because the need for new buses is so great, we have to pay off the entire bureaucracy with huge amounts of cash at the Thai peoples expense to move forward.

That's right, except I was speaking frome outsider's perspective without proposing any solutions, that would be too presumptious for an outsider.

They can pay, they can clean up bureaucracy, they can live without buses for a while - doesn't really matter, there will always be enough excuses for whatever they decide.

Personally I'm for political system overhaul.

I would also object to bureaucrats being solely blamed for this fiasco - the project is pushed by politicians who need this money to run in the elections.

I have often argued that bureaucrats, as professionals with life long careers, won't screw their industries over for a quick buck, and they can't possibly steal as much as a endlessly rotating bunch of politicians with six months deadline to set their families for life, or big businesses with appetites equal to some small countries.

Bureaucrats are the lesser evil than many others.

Only Bangkok has a public bus system in Thailand, I doubt that's enough to sustain local industry. Thais build tour coaches instead, those are in demand all over the country.

[Plus]

dysfunctional to the extreme and incapable of doing this procurement effectively or efficiently

Actually it's quite a progress comparing to just a few years ago when they could care less about efficiency and public interest.

Now this demand for efficiency and transparency is the biggest stumbling block - the govt can rollover the opposition party but doesn't dare to challenge the public.

That's a big big change from pre-coup times, and I hope it's sustainable.

[Journalist]

That's right, except I was speaking frome outsider's perspective without proposing any solutions, that would be too presumptious for an outsider.

They can pay, they can clean up bureaucracy, they can live without buses for a while - doesn't really matter, there will always be enough excuses for whatever they decide.

Personally I'm for political system overhaul.

Isnt your recommended solution in line 3 a bit presumptuous, given that you say in line 1 that its presumptuous for outsiders like your good self to propose solutions.

[Plus]

I think on the previous page I said that Thailand projects a very bad image with this bus deal. That's where outsiders' perspective come from.

I think you have noticed that personally I get my nose in every little problem here and know all the anwers. If only people would listen...

[LawnGnome]

Cabinet approves the leasing of NGV bus project for Bt66 billion

The Cabinet Tuesday approved the leasing of 4,000 NGV buses for Bt66 billion, Deputy Government Spokesman Supachai Jaisamut said.

The leasing project was proposed by the Bhum Jai Thai Party but has been delayed for months following criticisms that it was too expensive.

The Nation

-- The Nation September 29, 2009

Edited September 29, 2009 by LawnGnome

[Yoshitaka]

Well done Newin.

This confirms that Thaksin is really history now.