Air France Plane Drops Off Radar Over Atlantic

[cgjtt]

I like the post from CFIT but keep in mind they would have been navigating around the cells. Deviations up to 100 miles would not be unheard of. Although when deviating clearance from ATC would have been requested via HF or VHF. Failing to reach ATC you would still deviate and take care of your clearance later. SO, how far off their track were they? I han't seen the the ACARS messages but were positions included in the messages ?

[jackdanielsesq]

Latest concrete development - read that as not speculative

BR>Jack

In another development on Friday, the Paris prosecutor's office opened a manslaughter investigation into the air crash.

It is a routine step taken by authorities in connection with the deaths of French citizens overseas.

[Datsun240Z]

CFIT: I can imagine a storm would bring a plane down, but then it has to be a really,really severe one.

There have been reports planes flying trough hail storms, including lightning and severe turbulence and coming out in once peace.

If the electrical fails, the Airbus is DOOMED. Fly-by-wire.

A330 model ( notice the sidewinder yoke ):

B737 model ( notice the normale yoke ):

[jackdanielsesq]

A CNN report states there were 12 different planes in that general vicinity, at the same time and none even reported unusual weather.

In a related report all those frantic automessages [ACARS] that were released, indicate the plane was off autopilot!!

Again - as we have mostly concluded here and elsewhere - the flight was already doomed.

BR>Jack

[Datsun240Z]

@ Jack: About the weather is right, that's why my theory of a possible bomb on board ( see above ). I have a friend who's an airine co-pilot with KLM, and he says the data which covers the 4 minute message, can indicate a bomb exploding in the rear. Since the message also includes: sudden loss of cabin pressure and all instrument failure.

[cgjtt]

A CNN report states there were 12 different planes in that general vicinity, at the same time and none even reported unusual weather.

In a related report all those frantic automessages [ACARS] that were released, indicate the plane was off autopilot!!

Again - as we have mostly concluded here and elsewhere - the flight was already doomed.

BR>Jack

I guess you haven't read CFIT's posts . Could you point out exactly where the flight started being doomed ?

As for "datsun 240z" Let me just run through a little senario. A Boeing 747 get's hit by lightning and looses all 4 electrical buses , no more radar, crew take 5 minutes to go through the loss of "all generators check list". Meanwhile they run right through a cell. Severe turbulence is defined as crew not being in control and the autopilot has tripped off due to loss of power or being out of trim due to severe turbulence. Through the cell they pick up icing that contaminate the pitot static tubes. There goes your central air data computer and icing leads to loss of airspeed indication. You can't start the APU cause it's not flight rated. Crew struggles to maintain control and overstress the aircraft. The example i've used is a 30 year old 747.

I'm using this example to illustrate a situation that would affect a older generation aircraft verses a newer one and is intended as an argument in the previous post and in no way speculation into AF447.

As for the ACARS maybe the operators will start adding a lat,long to the time on the ACARS messages.

[Texpat]

I shudder every time I step foot on those Airbus tin cans.

Inferior product in all phases of air worthiness.

RIP to the poor passengers and crew.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Texpat

[jackdanielsesq]

Amen, Brother

BR>Jack

I shudder every time I step foot on those Airbus tin cans.

Inferior product in all phases of air worthiness.

[jackdanielsesq]

Latest

BR>.Jack

Two bodies and debris have been found from the Air France plane which went missing over the Atlantic last Monday, the Brazilian air force has said. The remains were taken from the water early on Saturday morning, said spokesman Jorge Amaral. Experts on human remains are on their way to examine the find.

[Carib]

Pictures of debris released by the Brazilian airforce 06-06-09;

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...stamento03.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos2.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos5.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos1.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos3.jpg

[CFIT]

A CNN report states there were 12 different planes in that general vicinity, at the same time and none even reported unusual weather.

In a related report all those frantic automessages [ACARS] that were released, indicate the plane was off autopilot!!

Again - as we have mostly concluded here and elsewhere - the flight was already doomed.

BR>Jack

I guess you haven't read CFIT's posts . Could you point out exactly where the flight started being doomed ?

As for "datsun 240z" Let me just run through a little senario. A Boeing 747 get's hit by lightning and looses all 4 electrical buses , no more radar, crew take 5 minutes to go through the loss of "all generators check list". Meanwhile they run right through a cell. Severe turbulence is defined as crew not being in control and the autopilot has tripped off due to loss of power or being out of trim due to severe turbulence. Through the cell they pick up icing that contaminate the pitot static tubes. There goes your central air data computer and icing leads to loss of airspeed indication. You can't start the APU cause it's not flight rated. Crew struggles to maintain control and overstress the aircraft. The example i've used is a 30 year old 747.

I'm using this example to illustrate a situation that would affect a older generation aircraft verses a newer one and is intended as an argument in the previous post and in no way speculation into AF447.

As for the ACARS maybe the operators will start adding a lat,long to the time on the ACARS messages.

Actually it is now widely accepted that storm was not particularly dangerous, however latest speculation has it a warm " Pool" of air an updraft of this suddenly warmer air may have sent the plane over it's limitations.

High altitude , high speed , heavy planes are vulneravble to temperature changes as it can cause air speed fluctuatins that push it over the edge ,

Pilots refer to it as being in the , " Coffin Corner"

Also SPEcUALTION ncluding melting ice in the pitot tube, there have been some remarks about water drainage being inhibited in these particualr tube.

AirBus sent out notification but it wasn't for this particular model aircraft- none the less Air France had voluntarily started replacing them , the aircraft had just under gone a major inspection too on April 9th , missing the replacement schedule by just a week.

BUT it is NOT confirmed this particular model of pitot sensor tube was deficient .

Air crashes are almost ALWAYS caused by more than one thing going wrong at the same time . A combination of factors that compounds into disastor.

I tell you what is scary, these planes are entirely automated and pilots, especially newer aren't really getting experience FLYING when sh*t hits the fan...

When sytems are getting confusing info , things like the auto pilot shut off, rudders become limeted, etc. and these guys haven't really ever FLOWN in high altitude - the airlines are forbidding them from doing it without auto pilot ..

Too much reliance on automation .

And the attitude, speed reference, ALL gauges are all electrically presented , thus prone to black out too, seems like some mechanical emergency systems should be in place.

And it was pointed out, the Air-Bus pencil sized little " joy sticks" are dangerous for manual input when the plane is in turbulance. Boeing uses a real, " yoke" (like a steering wheel) that a pilot can really hold on to and be more in control of his/her input.

For very interesting reading of the pro's discussion; ( but don't expect to join and ask silly questions or post meteor theories or mainstream media reports...)

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/376433-af447-23.html

[Carib]

Try telling the joy sticks verses the yoke and the difficulty to work with the stick to an F 16 pilot, the stick is all he has got. These are thoughts of guys afraid of new developments.

[Heng]

Nothing like a stick vs. yoke debate during a tragedy. May as well be arguing about bringing her back down with a PS2 vs. Wii controller.

[Mosha]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090606/twl-bo...sh-41f21e0.html

Interesting bit about the weather at the time here.

[CFIT]

Try telling the joy sticks verses the yoke and the difficulty to work with the stick to an F 16 pilot, the stick is all he has got. These are thoughts of guys afraid of new developments.

F 16's are for fast maneuvering, not safety , thus sticks have an advantage. Also,

F- 16 pilots have more control in that they are strapped, 6 points into a conformed bucket, the stick is fixed between their legs , and is physically larger .

It is a valid recommendation from experienced A 330 pilots, something that could be changed to make flying safer in passenger jets.

[cgjtt]

The reason why pilots don't fly hands on at cruising altitude is that it's hard to keep it steady for long periods of time. I've seen guys trying to handle a 747 at altitude for 30 minutes and it's a lot of work. Heavy jet are meant to be flown on auto pilots. In normal operation, an airbus hands flown can not exceed structural limits due to flight laws programmed into the flight computers. You can overstress a Boeing ( there is a good argument about this that I won't go in).

Normal operation inmost if not all companies is to engage the A/P below 10000 feet. If you want to have fun do it in the sim so you don't make your pax puke. F-16 stick is the same size and same position as on the 330 , so there........

[jackdanielsesq]

Air France & Airbus have been aware of the sensor icing problem for more than a year. Air France (apparently) started a voluntary replacement program a couple months back as all their own, in-flight data, indicated a very real icing problem. Be interesting to see if #447 had new or old units on board.

There is some conjecture over the marketing of the Airbus fly-by-wire system in that it was primarily aimed at 3rd World countries, where the precept was that the plane did all the thinking for the PIC. That of course, simplistically put, is absurd. By implication, the standards on the flight deck were possibly lowered? Or that the same degree of experience was not required? Of course all bets are off when the CPU goes out to lunch, or the data fed into it is bogus, or both. Taking control away from the PIC is always folly. The AP is a given. Those 4 minutes of code will be interesting - one must presume that they will be the basis of any major lawsuits, plus any additional BB evidence.

Two male passengers have thus far been found, they dont say whether under water or perhaps linked to the seat flotation. One must presume there to be a slew forthcoming.

BR>Jack

[CFIT]

The reason why pilots don't fly hands on at cruising altitude is that it's hard to keep it steady for long periods of time. I've seen guys trying to handle a 747 at altitude for 30 minutes and it's a lot of work. Heavy jet are meant to be flown on auto pilots. In normal operation, an airbus hands flown can not exceed structural limits due to flight laws programmed into the flight computers. You can overstress a Boeing ( there is a good argument about this that I won't go in).

Normal operation inmost if not all companies is to engage the A/P below 10000 feet. If you want to have fun do it in the sim so you don't make your pax puke. F-16 stick is the same size and same position as on the 330 , so there........

This is not correct.

The concern from overly automated aircraft regiments is newer pilots aren't getting actual hands on experience they may need in an emergency..

And the argument for yokes vs sticks is it is LESS likely for a pilot to put in overstressing commands than with an A 330 stick, off to the side, maybe not in the correct hand, ( right handed vs left..) in heavy/severe turbulence

Since an A- 330 and F 16 are entirely different machines with entirely different purposes.

why use the same control surface input system?

[CFIT]

Bodies, or remains? Because the state of the bodies is a clue of disintegration in mid air ( intact bodies ) or intact airframe impact, ( rather unpleasant remains. )

If sex can be determined, I'd guess mostly intact bodies,

PERHAPS an indication of airframe breaking up from stress overloads. Horrid- though better than consciously falling within a cabin for 4 minutes ?

[wpcoe]

Pictures of debris released by the Brazilian airforce 06-06-09;

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...stamento03.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos2.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos5.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos1.jpg

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...destrocos3.jpg

[edited to now say:] Here's the index page for the debris photos. The above quoted URLs were truncated, so invalid.

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/

Edited June 7, 2009 by wpcoe

[cgjtt]

The reason why pilots don't fly hands on at cruising altitude is that it's hard to keep it steady for long periods of time. I've seen guys trying to handle a 747 at altitude for 30 minutes and it's a lot of work. Heavy jet are meant to be flown on auto pilots. In normal operation, an airbus hands flown can not exceed structural limits due to flight laws programmed into the flight computers. You can overstress a Boeing ( there is a good argument about this that I won't go in).

Normal operation inmost if not all companies is to engage the A/P below 10000 feet. If you want to have fun do it in the sim so you don't make your pax puke. F-16 stick is the same size and same position as on the 330 , so there........

This is not correct.

The concern from overly automated aircraft regiments is newer pilots aren't getting actual hands on experience they may need in an emergency..

And the argument for yokes vs sticks is it is LESS likely for a pilot to put in overstressing commands than with an A 330 stick, off to the side, maybe not in the correct hand, ( right handed vs left..) in heavy/severe turbulence

Since an A- 330 and F 16 are entirely different machines with entirely different purposes.

why use the same control surface input system?

I think we are mixing up different arguments at the same time.

The position of the stick doesn't really matter. The B777 has FBW and depends on its programmed flight laws to control the surfaces, same as the airbus. The difference is how the computer is programmed. The A330 ( under normal condition ) cannot be overstressed cause the computer won't let it ( It may have been different for AF447 , we don't know) so again stick position doesn't matter. You can overstress a B777 ( a "fly by wire" airplane center yoke, ) cause Boeing as decided you can ( Different philosophy )

I'll go out on a limb and quote my brother who flew a B737 classic for a number of years then transitioned to the A-320 " It only took me a couple of flight to get used to it ( the side stick ) After that, I flew it, like any other airplane ,hands on crosswind landing were piece of cake" end of quote.

As for "newer pilot argument", the CPT had 11000 hours. By the time you get on an A-330 in a major company you should have had all the hands on you need. The side stick issue is usually dealt with in the sim.

Reports are that bodies have been found up to 600 miles away from track, were they deviating for weather ?? Lets hope that they all can be recovered as soon as possible.

[Carib]

Air France & Airbus have been aware of the sensor icing problem for more than a year. Air France (apparently) started a voluntary replacement program a couple months back as all their own, in-flight data, indicated a very real icing problem. Be interesting to see if #447 had new or old units on board.

There is some conjecture over the marketing of the Airbus fly-by-wire system in that it was primarily aimed at 3rd World countries, where the precept was that the plane did all the thinking for the PIC. That of course, simplistically put, is absurd. By implication, the standards on the flight deck were possibly lowered? Or that the same degree of experience was not required? Of course all bets are off when the CPU goes out to lunch, or the data fed into it is bogus, or both. Taking control away from the PIC is always folly. The AP is a given. Those 4 minutes of code will be interesting - one must presume that they will be the basis of any major lawsuits, plus any additional BB evidence.

Two male passengers have thus far been found, they dont say whether under water or perhaps linked to the seat flotation. One must presume there to be a slew forthcoming.

BR>Jack

What sensor icing problem would that be jack?

The (US)NTSB is called in on this too so the final conclusion can also be certified by them and evert agency with expertise is welcome, as per the Brazilian/French commitee. This is also a smart move IMHO when talking about lawsuits of course.

A specialist from Pratt and Whitney will also join the committee ( engines on this bird are US made, there is a RollsRoyce version too) as well as an expert from Honeywell US (the manufacturer of the fly by wire components/system on this plane, there is an Northtrop Grumman version too).

The 4 minutes of ACARS code, can bee seen on the pic I will try to load up, it is no secret and can be picked up by anyone on known and published frequencies.

Not of much use if you are `not in the know`.

[IMA_FARANG]

The reason why pilots don't fly hands on at cruising altitude is that it's hard to keep it steady for long periods of time. I've seen guys trying to handle a 747 at altitude for 30 minutes and it's a lot of work. Heavy jet are meant to be flown on auto pilots. In normal operation, an airbus hands flown can not exceed structural limits due to flight laws programmed into the flight computers. You can overstress a Boeing ( there is a good argument about this that I won't go in).

Normal operation inmost if not all companies is to engage the A/P below 10000 feet. If you want to have fun do it in the sim so you don't make your pax puke. F-16 stick is the same size and same position as on the 330 , so there........

I'm not an expert on the matter but:

1. True about auto-pilots. The computer can react faster and more precisely than any pilot can.

2. If there was a electrical systems failure, the computers might have gone down or auto rebooted. At the same time the auto-pilot system might have gone off line with the electrical failure.

3. The latest news I saw said that two more bodies had been found...sex could not be determined...which indicates the bodies were quite ....mangled. The possibility of a mid air plane decompression or structure failure was raised. But so far that is only conjecture...there simply are not enough details. The bodies found are being taken for an autopsy. It may lead to clues, i.e. if there is water in their lungs, then it would indicate they were probably alive until they went into the water. Also if it were a mid-air explosion, there might be fragments in the bodies from that explosion. But so far, there just isn't enough information.

4. And regarding automated systems. The problem with them is that the run on electrical power. When the power fails, automated systems do also. When the U.S. Cole was bombed, the electrical power failed. They could not transmit a distress message because their was no elecrtrical power to any of the comm systems.

5. A plane in Columbia was taken down by the navigation computer some years back. The pilot mistakenly entered the wrong destination for an in-flight course change. He entered CAL for CALI, Columbia. It should have been CLI for CALI. CAL was the code for another city. The computer did as it was told, turned the plane toward CAL. Then in accordance with instructions it lowered the plane gradually down to 5000 feet. Unfortunately at that heading there was an 8000 ft mountain in the way. My point is, automated systems, i.e. computers, do exactly what they are programmed to do. Even if those instructions are wrong.

[skippybangkok]

Amen, Brother

BR>Jack

I shudder every time I step foot on those Airbus tin cans.

Inferior product in all phases of air worthiness.

Zzzzzzzz...... maybe time to start declaring ur credentials on how you can make this assessment.........

[jackdanielsesq]

These are the latest reports, plus also 3 more bodies - no gender this time - have been removed from the site with 'many more' observed nearby.

BR>Jack

Air France later issued a statement saying it had begun changing airspeed sensors on Airbus long-haul aircraft due to icing fears five weeks before the crash, but only after failing to agree on a fix with Airbus.

Airbus confirmed it issued a bulletin asking the plane's 50 or so airline operators to consider changing the speed sensors, known as Pitot tubes, but it said it was an optional measure to improve performance and not related to safety.

In its statement on Saturday, Air France said it began noticing airspeed problems from icing on both A330 and A340 planes in May 2008 and had requested a solution from Airbus.

According to Air France, Airbus proposed testing different sensors despite earlier doubting that they would resolve the problem, but the airline declined to wait and started changing them from April 27. Airbus was not immediately available to comment.

Meteorological experts said the jet crossed a storm zone but that the weather did not seem to pose a particular threat.

Investigators have said they are not optimistic that they will be able to locate the plane's flight recorders, which could provide vital information about the cause of the crash.

[IMA_FARANG]

Latest info:

Total of bodies recovered up to 17. Nine recovered by Brazilian planes and ships, 8 found by a French vessel.

The area of debris covers an area of 200,000 sq Km, or about the size of the country of Romania. The exact location of the crash point can not be determined as ocean currents have been spreading debis about the area for the last 6 days.

The U.S. Navy will contribute 2 accoutic searchers to the search hoping to locate the pinger on the plane's "blackbox recorders". The accoustic sensors should be able to locate the ping signal from the blackbox down to 20,000 feet, if they can get close enough to the crash site. If located, recovery of the blackbox will need special mini diving subs, as the water is between 6,000 and 8,000 feet deep in that area. The accoustic searchers will be placed on a French barge that is currently scanning the area.

Bodies recovered will undergo an autopsy in hope to help detgermine the cause of the crash, If they have water in their lungs, it would indicate they drowned, which means the plane was intact when it hit the water. If there was a mid air eplosion, there might be residue in the bodies from the explosion. A sudden mid air decrompression would also be seen in the lungs if the victims died from decompression effects,

[jackdanielsesq]

Air France Tail Section Found

A Brazilian search team has recovered a large tail section of the Air France jet that crashed a week ago over the Atlantic.

The Brazilian military released photos of divers securing the tail fin, which was painted with Air France colours.

Meanwhile the US is sending two sophisticated listening devices to help search for black boxes from the plane.

On Monday, officials revised downwards the number of bodies confirmed to have been found from 17 to 16.

The Brazilian military said there had been a counting error.

Bodies and debris from the plane have been found some 1,000km (600 miles) north-east of Brazil's Fernando de Noronha islands, where the Airbus disappeared a week ago with 228 people on board.

[Carib]

Air France Tail Section Found

A Brazilian search team has recovered a large tail section of the Air France jet that crashed a week ago over the Atlantic.

The Brazilian military released photos of divers securing the tail fin, which was painted with Air France colours.

Meanwhile the US is sending two sophisticated listening devices to help search for black boxes from the plane.

On Monday, officials revised downwards the number of bodies confirmed to have been found from 17 to 16.

The Brazilian military said there had been a counting error.

Bodies and debris from the plane have been found some 1,000km (600 miles) north-east of Brazil's Fernando de Noronha islands, where the Airbus disappeared a week ago with 228 people on board.

Yes, I just found some pics of that find. Hope the link works this time.

http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/fotogaleria/2009/9102/

[tmwke]

A CNN report states there were 12 different planes in that general vicinity, at the same time and none even reported unusual weather.

In a related report all those frantic automessages [ACARS] that were released, indicate the plane was off autopilot!!

Again - as we have mostly concluded here and elsewhere - the flight was already doomed.

BR>Jack

I guess you haven't read CFIT's posts . Could you point out exactly where the flight started being doomed ?

As for "datsun 240z" Let me just run through a little senario. A Boeing 747 get's hit by lightning and looses all 4 electrical buses , no more radar, crew take 5 minutes to go through the loss of "all generators check list". Meanwhile they run right through a cell. Severe turbulence is defined as crew not being in control and the autopilot has tripped off due to loss of power or being out of trim due to severe turbulence. Through the cell they pick up icing that contaminate the pitot static tubes. There goes your central air data computer and icing leads to loss of airspeed indication. You can't start the APU cause it's not flight rated. Crew struggles to maintain control and overstress the aircraft. The example i've used is a 30 year old 747.

I'm using this example to illustrate a situation that would affect a older generation aircraft verses a newer one and is intended as an argument in the previous post and in no way speculation into AF447.

As for the ACARS maybe the operators will start adding a lat,long to the time on the ACARS messages.

Actually it is now widely accepted that storm was not particularly dangerous, however latest speculation has it a warm " Pool" of air an updraft of this suddenly warmer air may have sent the plane over it's limitations.

High altitude , high speed , heavy planes are vulneravble to temperature changes as it can cause air speed fluctuatins that push it over the edge ,

Pilots refer to it as being in the , " Coffin Corner"

Also SPEcUALTION ncluding melting ice in the pitot tube, there have been some remarks about water drainage being inhibited in these particualr tube.

AirBus sent out notification but it wasn't for this particular model aircraft- none the less Air France had voluntarily started replacing them , the aircraft had just under gone a major inspection too on April 9th , missing the replacement schedule by just a week.

BUT it is NOT confirmed this particular model of pitot sensor tube was deficient .

Air crashes are almost ALWAYS caused by more than one thing going wrong at the same time . A combination of factors that compounds into disastor.

I tell you what is scary, these planes are entirely automated and pilots, especially newer aren't really getting experience FLYING when sh*t hits the fan...

When sytems are getting confusing info , things like the auto pilot shut off, rudders become limeted, etc. and these guys haven't really ever FLOWN in high altitude - the airlines are forbidding them from doing it without auto pilot ..

Too much reliance on automation .

And the attitude, speed reference, ALL gauges are all electrically presented , thus prone to black out too, seems like some mechanical emergency systems should be in place.

And it was pointed out, the Air-Bus pencil sized little " joy sticks" are dangerous for manual input when the plane is in turbulance. Boeing uses a real, " yoke" (like a steering wheel) that a pilot can really hold on to and be more in control of his/her input.

For very interesting reading of the pro's discussion; ( but don't expect to join and ask silly questions or post meteor theories or mainstream media reports...)

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/376433-af447-23.html

Yes your 100% correct Thats what worries me when i fly Manchester Middle East on ALL the newer Fly by wire coffins just imagine the 360 Maybe the pilots just get in and turn the key ! Forgive me Condolance to every body concerned

Edited June 8, 2009 by tmwke

[Datsun240Z]

Pilots just have controlling functions in the future!