Accredited Bachelors Degree

[coulson]

Hi,

New to the board and been browsing many similar topics but wanted to post a specific query about teh requirements of the Thai Ministry when requested to issue a teachers certificate.

I have been approached about a job and having just completed the 120 TEFL and included thai culture, the Ministry has rejected a waiver applied by for the school on the basis of my educational background - 2 weeks after I have signed the job contract.

I have no Bachelors degree, although I have spent a total of 5 years in University post high school and posess a 2 year certificate and a 3 year higher diploma.

Ive read online about these so called 'life' degrees which evaluate you on your education history and work/ life experiences, and for a fee will furnish you with a degree on the basis of your combined credentials along with the accreditation details and other supporting documents.

I am wondering if anybody is in or has been in a similar situation and if this type of degree is acceptable under the circumstances. I appreciate that such degrees could not be acceptable in their respective fields or even at all in Western Countries but does the piece of paper hold any weight in this situation? It seems to be just red tape.

I have the full support of the school administration to persevere and continue to try and find a way around this, all the while, the job remains unfilled in an area where there is a shortage of native english speaking/ qualified teachers.

Any comments/ suggestions greatly appreciated.

[Ijustwannateach]

See this thread.

This topic is likely to be closed soon if there is nothing new to add compared to what is covered in the linked topic.

[beano2274]

Be careful what the School advises you to do, later if problems occur things might happen.

I know it's not a fake degree but read the topic below, it tells a story of what a school advised

a teacher to do, then later they grassed him up.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Fake-Degrees-t263129.html

Don't trust what schools say, get it black and white, then you have no comeback later on

if it goes pear shaped.

[AjarnChan]

Hi,

New to the board and been browsing many similar topics but wanted to post a specific query about the requirements of the Thai Ministry when requested to issue a teachers certificate.

I have been approached about a job and having just completed the 120 TEFL and included thai culture, the Ministry has rejected a waiver applied by for the school on the basis of my educational background - 2 weeks after I have signed the job contract.

I have no Bachelors degree, although I have spent a total of 5 years in University post high school and posess a 2 year certificate and a 3 year higher diploma.

Ive read online about these so called 'life' degrees which evaluate you on your education history and work/ life experiences, and for a fee will furnish you with a degree on the basis of your combined credentials along with the accreditation details and other supporting documents.

I am wondering if anybody is in or has been in a similar situation and if this type of degree is acceptable under the circumstances. I appreciate that such degrees could not be acceptable in their respective fields or even at all in Western Countries but does the piece of paper hold any weight in this situation? It seems to be just red tape.

I have the full support of the school administration to persevere and continue to try and find a way around this, all the while, the job remains unfilled in an area where there is a shortage of native english speaking/ qualified teachers.

Any comments/ suggestions greatly appreciated.

Judging from what I have been told by my Thai 'sponsors' I think getting an 'Accredited' Life Degree might work for you. However though it is not a 'forgery', and therefore you should never be accused of trying to deceive the Ministry on those grounds, the sad fact is that the 'Accreditation' is most probably totally bogus in educational terms. The Websites of some of the Accreditation outfits simply link to each other and never have any real substance so far as I can see. But many of us are 'in the same boat', and I have also been tempted to go down that route. I also have several years of University behind me, but dropped out for health and financial reasons. I also have various Diplomas, none of it is worth a dam_n here.

OK to directly answer your questions. If the ministry accepts the particular Online Degree, then it is acceptable. The problem is that it might not be next year. The added worry is that somebody may eventually decide that you are 'demeaning' the Ministry or whoever and 'kick you out' as a Fraudster. This being Thailand I would not place any weight on being 'successful' since so many 'agreements' are broken, and nothing is real until it has happened and even the passage of years does not make something 'legal' if they decide to re-write or re-interpret the relevant laws..

Feel free to contact me if you want to compare notes in private ;}

To 'Graduates' out there who are insulted by our daring to presume to be worthy of being Teachers ~ choose your own retort, so long as it is coarse and vulgar it should be suitable.

Edited June 1, 2009 by AjarnChan

[coulson]

Many thanks for all the comments.

I will refer to the other thread, dont mean to cause clutter.

Yeah in this instance the accreditation is backed up by a series of documents which are not be deemed to be bogus because they are effectively just compounding all of my other quali's/ certs which I have documented evidence of. Again, only in this instance Im wondering is it ok, but as you suggested AjarnChan, I in no way am suggesting that I want to slip in behind the red tape and certainly dont mean to suggest that one can just buy their way into a job when there may be other equally suitable candidates, but the job remains unfilled by a suitable candidate.

Certainly dont want to rustle any feathers as I am an educated person with 5 years post high school full time study in building surveying and Architectural Technology, and at the time of studying it wasnt even possible for me to get a degree in my field! Yet with all of this Im not permitted to teach a maths class which I could do with my eyes closed?

Again, appreciate the comments, the more you learn about Thailand, the less you seem to know!

[Rionoir]

Come on... anyone should be able to read the promises one of those "life" degree "schools" and realize it's a load of BS. Hey, we'll give you an "accredited" PHD(!) and you don't even have to go to school. *giggle* (and for the record - I was curious about their standards - you will all be impressed to know that I do qualify for a PHD haha)

[coulson]

Yes of course, I agree. But that isnt the point, Im not trying to get a phd, or a masters, I want a piece of paper that will permit me legally to do a job I am more than capable of doing and that is currently left unfilled.

And believe me having discussed options with potential employers, this online 'life' degree is by far the least shady compared to other suggested options which have been put forward to me

The questions isnt about whether or not it is an acceptable accredited body, but rather is it acceptable by the ministry of Education in this instance, as a compounded degree on the basis of other legit qualifications I already posses and moreover does anybody know of any instance where it has been considered a 'fake', thats the real worry. Im not interested in buying something which may later be deemed to be bought on the Khao Sarn or anything like that, I want to get this job legit and just get on with it.

[Rionoir]

I can't see any way they would accept a life degree, unless it slips through the cracks somehow. Those degrees are the equivalent of no degree... because the only standard to get one is that you have the $25 to pay for it. How could it possibly be accredited? If you understand accreditation then you realize that having an "accredited life degree" is an oxymoron to say the least. I think they are every bit as shady as a degree from Khao San, and I'd be afraid to use one.

Anyway.. I know how you feel. But, it's possible to work here legally without a degree, you just gotta try a little harder than someone who has one.

You said in your post that you want a job that you are more than capable of doing that is current going unfilled... and those are the types of jobs you can get already without a degree.

[coulson]

This is just the sort of response I'm after, the would you or would you not factor, much appreciated Rionoir.

I don't necessarily want any job that is currently unfilled, I just really want THIS job, and they really want me working there too. Im just trying hard not to be led down dark paths or indeed be misled by 'life' degrees and their supposed accreditations, let it be clear that I no way accept the legitimacy of these documents in the real world and their supposed assertions that you should only pay for this piece of paper, as far as Im concerned I would never even consider putting it on my professional resume if I were going to return to my old line of work.

I'm just posing the question - should I neglect the opportunity to pay for this piece of paper for the job I want which nobody else is fishing for, and does anyone know of any instances where precisely 'this' type of document has led them to trouble in Thailand?

I'm not denouncing your claims Rionoir, but it's been brought to my attention that within certain parameters, in this case, the 'life' degree paperwork is ligitimate 'enough' to get over that final hurdle.....unless someone can tell me otherwise?

I really hope this thread doesn't die, I would like to share what information I learn as it unfolds, or maybe Im sharing too much in an open forum!?

[Ijustwannateach]

It would be interesting to see what would happen, but I doubt many posters here would admit such a thing (a life experience degree getting them in trouble) even if it happened. Unless you accompanied the degree with a very frank and direct description of what it was and meant, I doubt you would be entirely immune by Thai government standards from a charge that you had attempted some kind of fraud, assuming that anyone ever bothered to check it out in more detail. Technically, it's not fraud- but if you didn't make really, really sure that everyone at all levels- including the approving officials that you never get to see at the Ministry- understood what the degree was, I think they would still hold it against you if having approved you later embarrassed them.

To be very frank, if this is the only way you can get your life to work out at the moment, then you seem pretty desperate- I'd suggest working honestly and openly without a degree, or perhaps staying home until you have one? It's not likely to become easier to do while you live here, assuming this was ever going to be on the cards.

[coulson]

Well the school has offered me the position, as a volunteer, obviously someone along the way realized the opportunity to exploit the desires of a potential job candidate to work in a government high school. I was offered a work permit to work in a resort and do the volunteering on the side, which I discovered would actually be shady anyway so I declined the offer to be a puppet constantly looking over my shoulder.

On the outset, it also transpired that applying for the teachers cert a second time around in such a short time, with a 'life' degree which seemed to appear out of nowhere, would have been too fishy anyway and most likely rejected in any case so if anybody is considering this option at least it should be included in the initial application where it may pass their criteria with the correct supporting documentation and help from the school. ( Having said that, Im not neccessarily advising anyone to pay for one of these degree's )

Thanks to all who offered advice, I think this board is very useful and look forward to contributing more in the future on the basis of what I experience in the coming months.

[Rionoir]

I thought I was just reading something about people getting work permits without teaching certs anyway... I am so confused. I just took a job today and they've had success getting non-degree holders work permits, so they said they would help me and pay for it and all that... so glad to hear it. We'll see what happens.

[Scott]

It would be helpful if people would post where they are are with regard to these situations. Where I work, which is in the Bangkok area the MOE will NOT accept anyone without a degree. I don't know if it would work to get a Life Experience degree, since we have to submit a transcript (Do they provide a transcript?).

I will probably be applying for a waiver for a teacher we want to employ at one of our affiliated schools. He has a 3 year nursing degree and will be teaching Health Education. This may be a test in our area. He has a degree, but not a Bachelor's Degree. He also has previous experience in teaching.

It seems that it all depends on where you work.

[Ijustwannateach]

Scott, I'm afraid that I must disagree with you in regard to your claim that the MOE does not accept teachers without degrees in Bangkok- unfortunately because I know of at least one or two who have work permits. It may be that they are 'grandfathered in' (they have been around awhile), but they do exist. It is also possible that different schools are treated differently by the MOE- remember that there are no consistently enforced laws or rules here. Furthermore, it has always seemed that a number of agencies have been able to do anything with paperwork that they wanted.

I would like to remind our readers that there is currently a guideline against claiming that it is impossible to teach legally without a degree in Thailand. If anyone has hard evidence (in the form of legal documents, news articles, etc.) which seems likely to change this status, they are welcome to send me a PM to discuss it.

[mizzi39]

Scott, I'm afraid that I must disagree with you in regard to your claim that the MOE does not accept teachers without degrees in Bangkok- unfortunately because I know of at least one or two who have work permits. It may be that they are 'grandfathered in' (they have been around awhile), but they do exist. It is also possible that different schools are treated differently by the MOE- remember that there are no consistently enforced laws or rules here. Furthermore, it has always seemed that a number of agencies have been able to do anything with paperwork that they wanted.

I would like to remind our readers that there is currently a guideline against claiming that it is impossible to teach legally without a degree in Thailand. If anyone has hard evidence (in the form of legal documents, news articles, etc.) which seems likely to change this status, they are welcome to send me a PM to discuss it.

OK, I have not posted in a while, but here is my 2 baht on the situation. This is my second year teaching in Issan. I teach in an EP for a govt. school. My department insists that all teachers are legal, that means non B, WP, and TL. I (and many of my colleagues) have 2 year waivers from the TC. We have all taken the Thai culture course (last year), but many of us still need to take the TLT before the 2010 deadline.

I work with a teacher who has been employed at my school for the past 6 years. He is totally legal like the rest of us, and he does not possess a degree. What he does have is a Non O visa (not sure if it is marriage or retirement). With his non O he is able to get the WP, waiver, and Culture course cert. I am not sure what will happen come 2010, but i do know that his waiver is good until then, because all of our waivers expire on the same day. My EP just hired another teacher with 10 years teaching experience in the LOS minus a degree, but i am not sure what his visa status is.

Now for the OP's question. After reading your post I looked up life experience degrees. Sounds like a "missionary degree" program to me. I know of a teacher who has a "missionary degree", from an online Uni. The accreditation is through a "baptist group" The degree is not a fake,and she has transcripts. The degree and transcripts may not be worth the paper that they are printed on, but she meets the requirement to work LEGALLY here all the same.

I guess if a degree can be verified then it will be accepted. It is one thing to verify a degree, but is the MOE (or any department head) going so far as to verify accreditation? I would assume not, but again TIT so who knows.

I think that it is important to keep in mind that the MOE (along with the TC) change their policies at a whim, and It seems that one regional office may not share information with another regional office. Same goes for immigration, so continuity is, and has always been a big problem here. Such as life in the land of smiles!

Edited June 8, 2009 by mizzi39

[Phatcharanan]

I don't know if it would work to get a Life Experience degree, since we have to submit a transcript

Really? Mine is an Ed degree from the UK, 1989. No transcripts were issued at my Uni until the late 1990's and its never been a problem to get a WP, Visa ext etc.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Phatcharanan

[Scott]

I know of teachers in BKK and the surrounding area that do not have degrees and have work permits as well. I know that in the particular area that I work (or maybe at our particular school) it doesn't happen. Inconsistencies certainly abound, but I am guessing that there may be provinces and areas where they are not as strict as others. So, if someone can list a province or area, where the lack of a degree is not a problem, it might be helpful for others.

As for transcripts, we have only had to submit them for the past two years. Prior to that they weren't required. We have employees who either don't have them or it would take too long to get them and haven't had a serious problem. The officials do ask for them, however. I think the problem may arise when you get the verification of the degree. Degree verification in the U.S. is done through a clearinghouse and (I believe), only accredited schools are members. When I tried to check a life experience degree for someone whose school wasn't in the clearinghouse registry, the first thing that came up was that it was an UNaccredited school.

Could I have gotten this degree past the MOE? Most likely yes, but I know it was a dubious degree and decided against it. I advised the person to look for employment elsewhere in the Kingdom where it would be less problematic. I think that is best for both him and us.

This is the reason why it's helpful to know which places are following strict rules and which ones are much more lax in their interpretation.

[thunder30101]

No offense intended but I personally think you are very biased against teachers without degrees scott as a moderator I would think you would be more open minded on such issues as everyone that has been in thailand for awhile knows there are no firm rules on requirements for teaching in any province. I know lots of people with visas and work permits working in quality schools without degrees and most of them are better than a lot of the degreed people I know . And I would really like to know of this clearing house you use to check degrees as myself being from the usa you cannot get anything from your uni without proper identification due to the strict privacy laws.

[Scott]

Thunder, no offence taken. I am not biased against people without a degree. I think there is a place for all kinds of education levels in teaching in Thailand.

My bias, if it exists, is that with the relevant gov't agencies I have to deal with they won't budge on the issue and there isn't much I can do about it. This is particularly difficult for some Europeans and especially the Brits because they have a lot of people who are well educated but didn't attend a Uni and don't have that particular precious piece of paper. Many have years of experience and more than one diploma.

I won't even get into the number of people who attended Teacher's Colleges and have teaching qualifications from their own country, but not a Bachelor's degree.

Thailand is a country where education is a sign of wealth (often) and admission to the Universities gives prestige. They place a significantly greater emphasis on the degree than I do.

I don't like seeing a lot of teachers go through the pain of never knowing for sure if they will be allowed to work from one year t the next because of endless regulations and restrictions. This is especially true for those people who have made this there home and teaching their chosen vocation.

[Scott]

With regard to verifying degrees, I don't have the name on my home computer, but I believe if you google 'verify degree' it will come up. In the States, degrees are a matter of public record, so it's very easy to verify them. Since the Thai gov't instituted this regulation, I've never had a problem with a school in the States.

They will only supply the information about the name and the degree. You cannot get other information, like grades or transcripts.

I also don't have anything against 'Life Experience Degrees' and my posts are more playing Devil's Advocate. I have only knowingly run into one (that I know of) and that was a Life Experience Degree in Auto Mechanics. The MOE person in our area who reviews the documents would catch that one quickly--but that said, I still tried to verify it and if I could have, then I would have pursued the persons application. (It was an experienced teacher).

If an MOE officer from another district would accept it, then I would direct the person to that area.

[mizzi39]

Hi Scott and welcome!

I mean no offense, but most schools who delegate foreigners to handle other foreigners, are usually problematic and a major headache to work for, or at least this has been the experience of close friends of mine. My director is Thai, but educated in the States, so she knows how to handle foreigners as well as Thai administration. Thais should be educating themselves about administrative procedures concerning foreign workers and not delegating this responsabilty to fellow foreigners.

[PeaceBlondie]

Wow - less than 24 hours as a moderator, and Scott is being criticized for the Thais in Thailand who value bachelor degrees, and for not being Thai!

[Ijustwannateach]

And not only that, but both criticisms are off-topic (the topic is "life-degrees") and one of them is a restricted topic (discussions of degree vs. no degree in teachers). I'd like to remind members to continue posting ON-TOPIC and in adherence to the Teacher's Subforum Guidelines, else you may risk losing some posting privileges. Furthermore, if this topic cannot stay on-topic, it will be closed.

[thunder30101]

Okay then I know of two people that have life degrees and are working with work permits and visas they even showed me how they can be verified, does this mean since one person decides that their verification procedure doesnt work these people shouldnt be allowed to work ? I have seen a few inconsistent statements on here from someone of status with the board and they can not be questioned about it ? Is that the case then ?

[PeaceBlondie]

Scott describes what works for him in Bangkok; Loaded describes what he knows in Chiang Mai; etc. Thailand is inconsistent.

[Scott]

Mizzi 39: I agree with you totally, but as IJWT has mentioned, that's another topic and probably worth a whole new thread. It might be interesting to find out some of the forum members experiences.

Now, for Life Experience Degrees: If I could get a life experience degree past the officials, I would do so. I don't make the rules and I don't agree with them, but life with them, I must.

I assume that there are variations on the degrees and that people are spending money to get it. If anyone knows a way to get the officials to accept them, I am on board. We don't need to limit the number of available teachers in Thailand, we need to expand it. Also, if someone applies and I can't accommodate them, I am more than happy to send them in the direction where they will get employment.

It's a huge disservice to someone (and a misrepresentation) to offer someone a job when you reasonably know that you cannot fulfill the committment to get them a Work Permit.

[Rumpole]

I don't know if it would work to get a Life Experience degree, since we have to submit a transcript (Do they provide a transcript?).

Many of these diploma mills do indeed provide transcripts (usually for an additional fee of course) and this is possibly where the shadowy grey area of legality does actually become fraud. The transcripts generally contain a list of course subjects which the 'graduate' never completed, and grades which he didn't really attain.

I know that the Japanese, Taiwanese, and I believe also the Korean authorities, refer to the List of World Universities, on which your diploma mill is unlikely ever to appear, and it may only be a matter of time before some official in one of the various Thai government departments charged with ensuring that farang do not become too comfortably ensconced on sacred Thai soil eventually does the same. Perhaps not this year, but maybe the next, or the year after that. A 'milled' degree has been described as 'a ticking time-bomb in your resume'.

As other posters have said, I don't think I would really want to take the risk, given how suddenly the wind can change in Thailand and how capriciously the regulations are interpreted and enforced.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Rumpole

[Loaded]

As other posters have said, I don't think I would really want to take the risk, given how suddenly the wind can change in Thailand and how capriciously the regulations are interpreted and enforced.

In real terms nothing much has changed.

Police Checks - gone

Teacher Licence - never really arrived

Non-immigrant Visas - unchanged

Work Permits - unchanged

Possible to work legally without a degree - unchanged

It's discussion boards, where the wind change is speculated endlessly, that create a feeling of change. We are always waiting for something that never comes to be introduced.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Loaded

[Scott]

Interesting point, Loaded. Again, inconsistencies in regulations exist, for example we have to get the Police Clearance. I haven't heard a word from anyone in officialdom about a Teacher's License and have almost forgotten about them, but I will follow up with our Visa person on it.

We did run into the List of Universities (I didn't know exactly what they were referring to, however). We had an applicant who had graduated from a bible school University that wasn't on the list and it was questioned. Since the person did have a Bachelor's (in Theology) and a transcript and a letter of verifiction, it was approved. In retrospect, I can only assume that the school was not accredited.