New Comer

[cmjantje]

I think it's fairly evident from our newcomer's post that he probably hasn't done that much travelling - at least not enough for him to apply to coming here; after all, that's not so unusual for exchange students - it's part of why they're doing the exchange in the first place. Rather than offering more (IMO) criticisms on that score, perhaps our knowledgeable members could suggest some useful websites that would inform him - and not just about sightseeing, hotels etc. Presumably many of us have had visitors and suggested a website or two to them that provide a useful advance look at what makes Chiang Mai what it is?

Looking through what's pinned here, I didn't see much that was useful in that respect. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to identify and collate more sites for other first-time visitors' use.

This guy sought out and found ThaiVisa - and asked for help. Maybe the questions are rather basic, but then maybe people could take a moment to just try and put themselves in his position? And, yes, "Don't worry so much" is good advice.

Like I always say: there are no dumb questions, there are dumb people who don't ask questions And on forums like this there are too many people who do not see a Question.

[HusseinHussein]

Hi.

I've always found travelfish helpful.

http://www.travelfish.org/eatandmeet/thail.../chiang_mai/eat

Tuskers(link at the top of the forum page) is a great place,too.Order your drink,Chas,the owner, will come talk to you,and you'll be able to explain your food preferences to him.He'll probably oversee the cooking himself,as he always goes the extra mile

Thanks alot for that great site, but i cant find the link for Tuskers

[HusseinHussein]

Scan your travel documents - passport (visa page), etc - and email them to yourself.

Travel insurance.

Go to a taxi desk in Arrivals (either side of Baggage) and get a slip for a taxi meter to town - 120 baht ish.

Pick up an umbrella if staying anytime between now and October.

Bring a mobile, get it unlocked, and buy a pay-as-you-go SIM.

Ask for your food 'suk-suk' if you like it well cooked.

Don't take your wallet out in public, always have some notes in shirt pocket to pay for daily stuff/beer.

Nimmanhemin Road for student nightlife.

Emergency help - 191.

Tourist Police - 1155.

Directory enquiries - 1113.

Pizza Company 1112.

Jackr what is the best mobile operator???

what should be asking when I am buying the SIM

[HusseinHussein]

As a student, you might be on a budget so you should know that places like Tuskers and Chez Marco, while excellent eating venues with great service, can be much, much more expensive than regular Thai food places.

The warning about pork turning up in unexpected places is too be noted, but don't worry too much because there are many chicken-only and squid-only only stalls. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere there are some 30,000 muslims in Chiangmai. A visit to the local mosque, apart from spiritual sustenance if you're so inclined, will provide you the best places to find pork-free food. The Thai word for mosque, or masjid, is: ma-sa-yid and there are probably several in CM, but I've only passed one.

While most locals here are very friendly and try to be helpful, english language skill is much lacking so learning a little Thai in advance will be extremely fruitful. Here's a good place to start learning a few useful phrases: http://www.thai-language.com/ click on 'categories' and choose situations you're likely to be in.

Hope you get the best out of your trip.

you are correct, I am expected to have some a pocket money, but how much should I expect to pay at Tuskers and Chez Marco, and how much is the regular Thai food???

[HusseinHussein]

Addresses mosques in Chiang Mai:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/indepth/details.php?id=1571

Mosques in Chiang Mai

Muslim Association

276 Charoenprathet Road, T Changklan, A Muang, Chiang Mai 50100.

Baan Haw Mosque 274951

58 Chang Khlan Rd.,

T. Chang Khlan,

A. Muang,

Chiang Mai 50100

Chang Khlan Mosque 273385

Charoen Prathet Rd. Soi 13,

T. Chang Khlan,

A. Muang,

Chiang Mai 50100 Fax: 273385

Chang Phuak Mosques 211723

19 Maninopharat Rd. Soi 1,

A. Muang,

Chiang Mai 50300

San Pa Khoi Mosque 247667

31/1 Na-Wat Ket Rd. Soi 1,

A. Muang,

Chiang Mai 50000

Halal food in Chiang Mai: http://chanchao.fotopages.com/?entry=65593 and reviews of the restaurants: http://chanchao.fotopages.com/?page=6

Thanks alot for the addresses

Hello All,

first of all, I don't know if this is the right place to write this thread, but I just feel its related to the city I am visiting.

My name is Hussein, I am student exchange, I will be coming for the whole summer and I just need some tips

I don't know what kind of cloth should I be brining, what about food, shopping, traveling, and the most important Health issues

I don't even know if i should be shaving my head bold just to avoid going to the barber shop, I just don't know what to expect

can some one give me any guidance

I will be going to RMUTL, any comment about it also??

thanks alot

It`s you again.

Are you not bored of subscribing on ThaiVisa so many times?

Aving a laugh, aint cha.

Never, knowledge never killed anyone

[HusseinHussein]

I think it's fairly evident from our newcomer's post that he probably hasn't done that much travelling - at least not enough for him to apply to coming here; after all, that's not so unusual for exchange students - it's part of why they're doing the exchange in the first place. Rather than offering more (IMO) criticisms on that score, perhaps our knowledgeable members could suggest some useful websites that would inform him - and not just about sightseeing, hotels etc. Presumably many of us have had visitors and suggested a website or two to them that provide a useful advance look at what makes Chiang Mai what it is?

Looking through what's pinned here, I didn't see much that was useful in that respect. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to identify and collate more sites for other first-time visitors' use.

This guy sought out and found ThaiVisa - and asked for help. Maybe the questions are rather basic, but then maybe people could take a moment to just try and put themselves in his position? And, yes, "Don't worry so much" is good advice.

Like I always say: there are no dumb questions, there are dumb people who don't ask questions And on forums like this there are too many people who do not see a Question.

I really salute you for understanding my concerns

[Thakkar]

As a student, you might be on a budget so you should know that places like Tuskers and Chez Marco, while excellent eating venues with great service, can be much, much more expensive than regular Thai food places.

The warning about pork turning up in unexpected places is too be noted, but don't worry too much because there are many chicken-only and squid-only only stalls. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere there are some 30,000 muslims in Chiangmai. A visit to the local mosque, apart from spiritual sustenance if you're so inclined, will provide you the best places to find pork-free food. The Thai word for mosque, or masjid, is: ma-sa-yid and there are probably several in CM, but I've only passed one.

While most locals here are very friendly and try to be helpful, english language skill is much lacking so learning a little Thai in advance will be extremely fruitful. Here's a good place to start learning a few useful phrases: http://www.thai-language.com/ click on 'categories' and choose situations you're likely to be in.

Hope you get the best out of your trip.

you are correct, I am expected to have some a pocket money, but how much should I expect to pay at Tuskers and Chez Marco, and how much is the regular Thai food???

Firstly, you should know that it's an apples to oranges comparison. A Thai meal could be as cheap as 25 baht, but you'd probably need two plates as the portions are small, although at some places they are fairly generous. A very filling sandwich at Tuskers costs about 100 baht. If you don't mind saliva dripping on your keyboard, click on the Tuskers banner ad above to see their menu. Or click on the meals on wheels ad to view the menus of various restaurants, including some better Thai food places to see what your meals are likely to cost.

[Igor]

so you won't be wearing a sweater here!

... unless you're Thai. I might be walking down the street sweating like a pig (do pigs really sweat?) and see some tiny Thai girl ride by on her moto wearing a doggone ski jacket!

Just got a haircut yesterday. 150 baht at an "upscale" shop on Nimman road near where you'll be. And that included my beard.

Only thing you can't find here is extra large clothing. If you have enormous girth or height, there are only a couple of places you can find clothes and they aren't exactly high fashion. MY problem is I have extra large feet. If your foot is over a size 44, you'll have a very limited selection. Over 46? No selection.

If you are Muslim, Halal food is very difficult to find but not impossible. Learn the word: muu. If you see muu on the menu be warned that means pork. If you like seafood, you'll love it here. Squid on a stick, anybody? Other than that, stop worrying. You'll love Chiang Mai.

[gatorhead333]

As a student, you might be on a budget so you should know that places like Tuskers and Chez Marco, while excellent eating venues with great service, can be much, much more expensive than regular Thai food places.

The warning about pork turning up in unexpected places is too be noted, but don't worry too much because there are many chicken-only and squid-only only stalls. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere there are some 30,000 muslims in Chiangmai. A visit to the local mosque, apart from spiritual sustenance if you're so inclined, will provide you the best places to find pork-free food. The Thai word for mosque, or masjid, is: ma-sa-yid and there are probably several in CM, but I've only passed one.

While most locals here are very friendly and try to be helpful, english language skill is much lacking so learning a little Thai in advance will be extremely fruitful. Here's a good place to start learning a few useful phrases: http://www.thai-language.com/ click on 'categories' and choose situations you're likely to be in.

Hope you get the best out of your trip.

you are correct, I am expected to have some a pocket money, but how much should I expect to pay at Tuskers and Chez Marco, and how much is the regular Thai food???

Firstly, you should know that it's an apples to oranges comparison. A Thai meal could be as cheap as 25 baht, but you'd probably need two plates as the portions are small, although at some places they are fairly generous. A very filling sandwich at Tuskers costs about 100 baht. If you don't mind saliva dripping on your keyboard, click on the Tuskers banner ad above to see their menu. Or click on the meals on wheels ad to view the menus of various restaurants, including some better Thai food places to see what your meals are likely to cost.

justs look away from the ribs on the menus...but really as a Muslim/ student as well Tuskers and many places will not be your cup of tea at all.

[lannarebirth]

Hi HusseinHussein,

It looks like the Thai Visa members are doiing a good job getting you oriented. On another topic, as you're Egyptian, and I don't know any, what did you and your countrymen think of Barack Obama's speech in Cairo this week?

[HusseinHussein]

As a student, you might be on a budget so you should know that places like Tuskers and Chez Marco, while excellent eating venues with great service, can be much, much more expensive than regular Thai food places.

The warning about pork turning up in unexpected places is too be noted, but don't worry too much because there are many chicken-only and squid-only only stalls. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere there are some 30,000 muslims in Chiangmai. A visit to the local mosque, apart from spiritual sustenance if you're so inclined, will provide you the best places to find pork-free food. The Thai word for mosque, or masjid, is: ma-sa-yid and there are probably several in CM, but I've only passed one.

While most locals here are very friendly and try to be helpful, english language skill is much lacking so learning a little Thai in advance will be extremely fruitful. Here's a good place to start learning a few useful phrases: http://www.thai-language.com/ click on 'categories' and choose situations you're likely to be in.

Hope you get the best out of your trip.

you are correct, I am expected to have some a pocket money, but how much should I expect to pay at Tuskers and Chez Marco, and how much is the regular Thai food???

Firstly, you should know that it's an apples to oranges comparison. A Thai meal could be as cheap as 25 baht, but you'd probably need two plates as the portions are small, although at some places they are fairly generous. A very filling sandwich at Tuskers costs about 100 baht. If you don't mind saliva dripping on your keyboard, click on the Tuskers banner ad above to see their menu. Or click on the meals on wheels ad to view the menus of various restaurants, including some better Thai food places to see what your meals are likely to cost.

I can notice that your ads aren't like the one I see

I am guessing its related to the country of where you login from, but anyway I did my search and found the menus on the internet

The menus sound very interesting and the place looks friendly, I am sure I will have my share of their food

[HusseinHussein]

so you won't be wearing a sweater here!

Just got a haircut yesterday. 150 baht at an "upscale" shop on Nimman road near where you'll be. And that included my beard.

Only thing you can't find here is extra large clothing. If you have enormous girth or height, there are only a couple of places you can find clothes and they aren't exactly high fashion. MY problem is I have extra large feet. If your foot is over a size 44, you'll have a very limited selection. Over 46? No selection.

If you are Muslim, Halal food is very difficult to find but not impossible. Learn the word: muu. If you see muu on the menu be warned that means pork. If you like seafood, you'll love it here. Squid on a stick, anybody? Other than that, stop worrying. You'll love Chiang Mai.

now you are making me worried about that cloth issue

I am a tall guy, around 184 cm / 6" so now I think thats impossible to find cloth that fit well, I am a slim guy that wont be a problem but with the feet I didnt know that size 45 is huge

just have to rethink about that

but are you sure I wont find my sizes???

[HusseinHussein]

Hi HusseinHussein,

It looks like the Thai Visa members are doiing a good job getting you oriented. On another topic, as you're Egyptian, and I don't know any, what did you and your countrymen think of Barack Obama's speech in Cairo this week?

Well, many egyptians loved the speech, he was marvelous on the emotional side

but on the political side not many egyptian agreed

but in general we are more optimistic with Obama than with Bush

He respected our religion, really showed the world not all of us are terrorists

[gatorhead333]

Hi HusseinHussein,

It looks like the Thai Visa members are doiing a good job getting you oriented. On another topic, as you're Egyptian, and I don't know any, what did you and your countrymen think of Barack Obama's speech in Cairo this week?

Well, many egyptians loved the speech, he was marvelous on the emotional side

but on the political side not many egyptian agreed

but in general we are more optimistic with Obama than with Bush

He respected our religion, really showed the world not all of us are terrorists

Please try not to use the word Bu-- ,

It is now a sick, ugly memory that

America and the whole world is trying to forget . We pray that over time this name and all the unspeakable misery that goes with it will be washed away forever.

[Steve2UK]

so you won't be wearing a sweater here!

Just got a haircut yesterday. 150 baht at an "upscale" shop on Nimman road near where you'll be. And that included my beard.

Only thing you can't find here is extra large clothing. If you have enormous girth or height, there are only a couple of places you can find clothes and they aren't exactly high fashion. MY problem is I have extra large feet. If your foot is over a size 44, you'll have a very limited selection. Over 46? No selection.

If you are Muslim, Halal food is very difficult to find but not impossible. Learn the word: muu. If you see muu on the menu be warned that means pork. If you like seafood, you'll love it here. Squid on a stick, anybody? Other than that, stop worrying. You'll love Chiang Mai.

now you are making me worried about that cloth issue

I am a tall guy, around 184 cm / 6" so now I think thats impossible to find cloth that fit well, I am a slim guy that wont be a problem but with the feet I didnt know that size 45 is huge

just have to rethink about that

but are you sure I wont find my sizes???

HH, good to see that you've been getting plenty of input - maybe even a bit too much information . I'm also about 185cm and relatively slim and I take a 44 shoe size (if you're not sure what that is, compare here: http://www.i18nguy.com/l10n/shoes.html#adult ). While some places don't have a full range of the larger sizes, you'll still find enough choice. Personally, I recommend the big Carrefour supermarket for sandals - big choice at good prices; at this wet time of year probably best to get synthetic rather than leather.

The clothes style here for males (particularly typical student age) is almost universally loose - e.g. "baggy" jeans. By contrast, many girls wearing jeans seem to go for the "sprayed-on" figure-hugging look. I'm no expert on all of Egypt's climate, but I think it's a safe bet that you'll find it more humid here than you're used to - so again loose jeans make sense. With your height, the right T-shirt size will probably be L or even XL - plenty of both around. Thai are generally a smaller/slimmer build than - for example - caucasians, so you should expect to buy a size larger than you're used to (e.g. L not M). I recommend the meanswear sections of Robinson department store (Airport Plaza mall) and Central department store (Kad Suan Kaew mall) for clothes - ranging from familiar international labels to lesser-known (and cheaper) names. Airport Plaza also has a fair selection of trendy designer clothes shops - with prices to match. Kad Suan Kaew also has a big sports store (Sports World?) with a big selection of shirts, shorts, trainers etc - as well as many other "soukh"-type independent stalls/shops.

One way and another, you'll "find your feet" here very quickly. As I've mentioned before, Chiang Mai is (for most of us) just the right balance of size to be very user-friendly. Good luck and have fun - it'll be a memorable stay.

One more guide/map recommendation - Nancy Chandler's combination of detailed map and booklet with eating/shopping/sightseeing details and suggestions (frequently updated). Easy to find here and probably the best all-in-one handy resource to keep with you; takes a little while to get used to the unusual graphic style, but really informative and useful once you do. You can get an idea of it here: http://www.nancychandler.net/product.asp?pId=12 (including June 2009 updates).

Edited June 8, 2009 by Steve2UK

[stevemcqueen]

Thanks alot for that great site, but i cant find the link for Tuskers

http://www.tuskersbar.com/

[gatorhead333]

Hi HusseinHussein,

It looks like the Thai Visa members are doiing a good job getting you oriented. On another topic, as you're Egyptian, and I don't know any, what did you and your countrymen think of Barack Obama's speech in Cairo this week?

Well, many egyptians loved the speech, he was marvelous on the emotional side

but on the political side not many egyptian agreed

but in general we are more optimistic with Obama than with Bush

He respected our religion, really showed the world not all of us are terrorists

Please try not to use the word Bu-- ,

It is now a sick, ugly memory that

America and the whole world is trying to forget . We pray that over time this name and all the unspeakable misery that goes with it will be washed away forever.

just to let you know i am an american and along with 50% of amercians we all tried are best to keep this bu-- monkey out of power in 2000.

Our system failed back then but now as you can see those type people are thrown out of office and completley new people that say they have a differant plan are in power now in USA..

This is why america is the greatest country in the world... democracy ..the people really have power to choose!

[Nienke]

This is why america is the greatest country in the world... democracy ..the people really have power to choose!

Don't know about the first part. Never been to The States and would love to go one day. America surely has many beautiful places and people. But that last part made me smile, painful smile more, though.

Power to choose? After being brainwashed and made sick by all these vaccines, toxins etc. that's pushed on to the people? Laws that lingering around the corner that will take away your power to choose over your own health? Sick people do not have that much power in their bodies anymore to think and choose critically.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Nienke

[eek]

I agree. Also don't forget that Chiang Mai is full of vegetarian restaurants, some of which have really tasty food.

As meadish pointed out, lots of vegetarian restaurants, and also food stalls. For the food stalls, look out for a yellow sign with these red letters: เจ

Which means "Jay". Jay isnt really exactly the term for vegetarian food (jay is meant to be free from strong spices too, but its usually not followed for general jay food), but it IS vegetarian. You can eat anything from these stalls and specific vegetarian restaurants without worry.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This is why america is the greatest country in the world... democracy ..the people really have power to choose!

Power to choose, except when it comes to basic personal freedoms.. No comparison with Thailand. Anyway, nice troll attempt to bring this off topic.

Don't know about the first part. Never been to The States and would love to go one day. America surely has many beautiful places and people.

You're not missing much. If you do go though, in a sense it's like Thailand in that it gets better & friendlier the further you get from the coast and the big cities.

[Ulysses G.]

I guess that every one has there own opinion.

To me, just Highway One along the California coast is good enough reason to visit the States. Never mind the Blue Ridge Mountains, Hawaii, Key West and the Florida Coast, Alaska, the mountains in New England during the fall, Vermont during the summer or for skiing during the Winter. New York City, San Francisco, New Orleans. I could go on all day. So much natural beauty and different climates for just one country!

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup Khun Hussein, and Salaam Aleikum,

Welcome to Chiang Mai !

My guess is your "advice buffer" is pretty full now, with many great responses from TeeVee members. My only advice is to relax, assume things will go well, and that you'll have some issues of "culture shock" here, but no real difficulties in taking care of your basic human needs for shelter, food, clothing.

And you are going to be busy in school building your future. You will have a "way of life" to connect with here. My psychic powers tell me you'll like it here, you'll find it an adventure, and many things will happen for you and with you, as well as to you, that, fortunately, no psychic powers (including your own) could ever predict

While there are certain Thais that are somewhat predatory on newcomers, mainly in the high tourist zones around the Night Bazaar and Pratu Thapae (Thapae Gate), you'll find those type people in every major city of the world, and I do think you'll find that most Thai people will respond to kindness and friendliness on your part very generously. And they will really respond if you show you are making an effort to learn their language, if you show you are interested in where they came from, what their family is like.

So, welcome

best, ~o:37;

p.s. Khun GatorHead333 : I thought America was the "greatest" because we (Americans) are "guided by the beauty of our weapons." And I apologize, right now, to Leonard Cohen for mis-using his beautiful song's words :

http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/album9.html#66

Edited June 9, 2009 by orang37

[WaiWai]

Here's a very useful website: http://www.chiangmainews.com/ .

The following may also be of interest: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Recommend-Or...ce-t236796.html , depending on the particularities of any personal dietary and other practices.

Edited June 9, 2009 by WaiWai

[Rasseru]

I guess that every one has there own opinion.

To me, just Highway One along the California coast is good enough reason to visit the States. Never mind the Blue Ridge Mountains, Hawaii, Key West and the Florida Coast, Alaska, the mountains in New England during the fall, Vermont during the summer or for skiing during the Winter. New York City, San Francisco, New Orleans. I could go on all day. So much natural beauty and different climates for just one country!

All that is true, but as you say, everyone has his or her own opinion. I simply cannot bear the thought of visiting a place where I sense slaughter, genocide, theft, rape and destruction all around, and where the current inhabitants are happy to live off the fruits of those acts, indifferent to the horrors that were perpetrated by their very recent ancestors to obtain them.

[Ulysses G.]

The U.S. is hardly the only country on earth to have done bad things.

Excuse me Rasseru, but are you not a great lover of Japan? How do you justify some of the terrible things that they have done and would likely still be doing if they had not been defeated in WW2?

Japanese war crimes From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Japanese war crimes occurred during the period of Japanese imperialism. Some of the incidents have also been described as an Asian Holocaust^[1] and Japanese war atrocities.^[2][3] Some war crimes were committed by military personnel from the Empire of Japan in the late 19th century, although most took place during the first part of the Shōwa Era, the name given to the reign of Emperor Hirohito, until the military defeat of the Empire of Japan, in 1945.

Historians^[who?] and governments of some countries officially hold Japanese military forces, namely the Imperial Japanese Army and the Imperial Japanese Navy, responsible for killings and other crimes committed against millions of civilians and prisoners of war.^{[citation needed]}

^{much more at:}

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes}

Edited June 9, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[Nienke]

All that is true, but as you say, everyone has his or her own opinion. I simply cannot bear the thought of visiting a place where I sense slaughter, genocide, theft, rape and destruction all around, and where the current inhabitants are happy to live off the fruits of those acts, indifferent to the horrors that were perpetrated by their very recent ancestors to obtain them.

Wow, that's a strong one!

I think if you think like that you can't go anywhere in the world anymore. Every country is guilty of some sorts of crimes. Luckily also every country do have their good people as well.

[Rasseru]

Excuse me Rasseru, but are you not a great lover of Japan?

No.

[Rasseru]

All that is true, but as you say, everyone has his or her own opinion. I simply cannot bear the thought of visiting a place where I sense slaughter, genocide, theft, rape and destruction all around, and where the current inhabitants are happy to live off the fruits of those acts, indifferent to the horrors that were perpetrated by their very recent ancestors to obtain them.

Wow, that's a strong one!

I think if you think like that you can't go anywhere in the world anymore. Every country is guilty of some sorts of crimes. Luckily also every country do have their good people as well.

I was describing how I feel about the place, what I sense there, not how it compares in objective terms with other places. It is not a question of rational thought, but one of felt experience. You are of course right about the rest of the world, as Ulysses G. is when he makes reference to the horrible things that Japan has done. What is different? I don't know. America is not unique in both having committed incredible evil and gotten away with it. Most of what is now Russia was stolen from other peoples just as America was, all in the last couple of hundred years, and Russia is still sitting there happily enough, just as America is, neither being in any way held to account. There are many other examples. Perhaps it is simply because I was born there and so feel closer to the horror of what happened there. In any case, it just underscores what Ulysses G. said, that everyone has his or her own opinion.

[meadish_sweetball]

Just a gentle reminder that this is not the place for discussing world politics... Please stay on topic.

If you are Muslim, Halal food is very difficult to find but not impossible.

Not really that difficult, there are plenty of halal places in Chiang Mai and I think once you've found one place you can just ask other muslims for recommendations. There is a sizeable muslim community in CM.

I sent Hussein a link to a halal in Thailand guide that contains 11 halal places in Chiang Mai, and those are just a small number and it does not end there by any means...

Also, Thai produced food sold in supermarkets is often certified halal by the national Thai Muslim council.

[lannarebirth]

I guess that every one has there own opinion.

To me, just Highway One along the California coast is good enough reason to visit the States. Never mind the Blue Ridge Mountains, Hawaii, Key West and the Florida Coast, Alaska, the mountains in New England during the fall, Vermont during the summer or for skiing during the Winter. New York City, San Francisco, New Orleans. I could go on all day. So much natural beauty and different climates for just one country!

All that is true, but as you say, everyone has his or her own opinion. I simply cannot bear the thought of visiting a place where I sense slaughter, genocide, theft, rape and destruction all around, and where the current inhabitants are happy to live off the fruits of those acts, indifferent to the horrors that were perpetrated by their very recent ancestors to obtain them.

So, you're saying its just like everyplace else. That would be a disappointment.

Apologies to K. Hussein for inadvertantly hijacking his thread.