Thailand is biting off the hand that feeds it

[bazza]

given the fact that the tourist industry is such a huge money spinner for the thai economy..... its their No.1 industry in terms of bringing in money and people employed i, dont you all think that this situation is being handled very badly by the thai authorities.why is there silence. why is this thing being allowed to drag on when it could and should be soreted out quickly.

OK sure there are people in the wrong but there are also those who unknowingly made an honest mistake, and if they are going to treat us all as crminals then they are only shooting themselves in the foot in the long term.

after all the fact is that corruption and bribery are rife here, its a fact of thai life, and now they want to penalise the very same people who they tried to make money out of, the tourists, who are the bread and butter for alot of thai people.

and it makes me really angry when i see the place in K.san .Rd  who sold me the fake stamp, when they knew it was fake,  and she assured me it was all legit and now their business is open and running as normal and the same lady is back there, selling plane tickets and smiling like everything is totally normal.all she did was pay a fine and she was out of jail in a few hours. wouldnt it be great if every farang embroiled in this mess could do the same.

If they are going to prosecute the farangs they should do the same to the thais involved. although its wishful thinking to have dual process and equal treatment

Thai RAK Thai. as always......

[Dancali]

Which business is the one that screwed everybody?  I know I wouldn't want to go there anymore.  Perhaps we could hurt her bottom line.

[bazza]

its called mamas travel agency.

[Heng]

The hand that feeds it.  Lol.   What is tourism revenue as a % of GDP?    And either way, tourists can still travel here.   It's those falangs who have low personal income who might find some difficulty staying.   Or are they somehow "the hand that feeds the Thai economy" as well?

[wilson steer]

I was warned ages ago about fake stamps, a popular fake stamp was a Burmese stamp that was available in Pattaya. In the old days when you departed from BKK airport, it was a quick business, they never checked, now they do. I feel sorry for first time falangs who entrusted an agency to do a visa run, they probably thought it was O.K.

But just stop and think, what it must be like to be jailed in Thailand, for something you didn't know was wrong. It is an injustice. I am at present helping a friend financially for the same reason.

The British Embassy are useless, they don't care about British subjects jailed in Thailand unless you are wealthy or from the 'establishment'.

It is very tough on those four lads from Douglas, Isle of Man. They are clearly just naiive.

Thailand can be heaven or ####, we are all just a slim chance away from an injustice. believe me I have seen really good, honest, law abiding guys come unstuck, through no fault of their own. I am giving really serious consideration to locating to P.D.R. Laos.

When I have the energy, I will investigate this possibility.

Take care, falangs, it really is getting quite nasty now!

[bazza]

yes heng im sorry to tell you that it is indeed true. tourism is thailands major industry and source of foreign currency.thailand is a third world economy, its not a wealthy or industrialized nation.

millions of thai people depend on tourism for their living, if you take all the guest houses, hotels, resorts, travel agencies,restaurants and bars that depend on tourists to provide jobs for the locals, and you suddenly start making problems for these tourists, jailing them and treating innocent people as criminals people are going to get turned off and go somewhere else.

farang tourists spend alot more money than the average thai person  and so the thai economy would be in crisis if a large portion of people suddenly stopped coming here.just look at Phuket during the sars outbreak, thousands of people lost their jobs

sorry if my comments offend you ( you are a thai after all arent you ?) im just being realistic.

dont fool yourself heng into thinking that thailand doesnt need tourists, what about ko samui, pattaya , Khao san road,patpong etc.... do you think these places would exist without farangs . believe me you guys need us much more than we will ever need you.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Investigate Laos well Wilson...its reputation is a bit 'iffy' too in its dealings with foreigners

[JonnieB]

baz  i don't thing tourism is los number 1 industry by contribution to gdp, agrigulture and manufacturing industries ontribute more.  but it is certainly important...maybe 3 or 4th.  i am sure someone can provide the exact figure.  the mistake many tourists and long-term tourists make is since they rarely get-out of the tourist belt or farang scene and this is their whole life, they think it is bigger than it really is.  however, thailand is more than sukhumvit road, beach road in pattaya, ko samui, phuket, or chiang mai but how many of us ever get out and see the rest?

wilson  i feel like you too but would maybe be more inclined to check-out malaysia.  a little more expensive than los, a lot less sanook, but stable, tropical, and more welcoming atmosphere maybe.  just this weeks time asia edition features an advert for farangs (in the ad japanese) to come to malaysia for retirement.  for those farangs who are done with the nightlife and just looking for a welcoming, semi-advanced, country to settle down in...maybe we only need to look next door?

[Indo-Siam]

Heng - I tend to agree with you.  Bonafide tourists are unaffected - no fee changes, no hassles getting visa on arrival.  Come here, spend your money, and leave.  No issue.

Serious businessmen are also relatively unaffected - people working for multinationals, or entrepreneurs who are legally employing Thais - both have to pay higher fees, but nothing too brutal, compared to eleswhere in the world.

The people who are affected are all the dodgy characters who cannot get or create legal jobs.  They think they are crucially important to keep the system running.  We'll soon see - because it appears to me that the pincers are slowly closing, and all the "drones" are about to find themselves looking for a new place to hang out.  Will Thailand collapse?  Will all the bargirls and publicans starve?   In my opinion - no.  Expat ranks will thin a bit.  But otherwise, in the big picture, the disappearance of 40,000 or 50,000 marginal characters will probably not even be noticed.

But - lots of tears and gnashing of teeth.  This too shall pass.

Indo-Siam

[bazza]

" the people who are affected are ALL dodgy charachters who cannot get or create legal jobs" .

indo siam.... that a pretty stupid comment to make, dont you think.drop the smug attitude, you make yourself look silly.

this thing affects everyone , not just the "marginal " charachters you seem to look down on. so do us all a favour and drop the smug attitude.

thanks

[Kapow Guy]

I don't think indo-siam has a smug attitude. He's telling it like he sees it. It's the other side of the arguement. To get a healthy discussion going we need to see both sides of the coin, no?

Maybe he/she is going abit too far on the word ALL dodgy characters. I guess those tourists, who come in, fall in love with the country, the people, the way of life and then unknowingly fall prey to a quick visa fix are also affected. Those would be the bonafide tourists that are affected.

IMHO this witch hunt type craze stems from PM Toxin's management style of expecting results. Any result would do. So for the immigration office at the airport a successful apprehension would do wonders for his career.

[haltes]

Bazza this will effect a tiny minority:

As Indo-Siam says, the tourists will still come, this will have no effect on them whatsoever. It will effect however all those working here illegally and get rid of all those who could not even get a job in their own country but are elevated to "teachers of English" in Thailand. This does not effect the real teachers or people who do have something positive to contribute here. Yes I know work permits are hard to get, but if you are qualified and you find a job, a work permit will be given to you.

Thailand is tightening things up and if it gets rid of some of the undesirable farangs here then I agree with their decision. Try going to live in Australia or the USA and see how difficult it is for us to go and work long-term there.

Imagine what you would read in the UK news aboutthis situation, if people could stay ad infinitum on tourist visas.

[Khun ?]

I think Indo got it right. Tourist will not be affected and may benefit a bit. A person that spends 70 or 80% of his time would rarely be considered a tourist. Thise length alone in most countries would cause you problems, unless it was really third world and need the funds that bad.

[Kapow Guy]

Agreed.

I think attitudes should not be attacked here. Everyone has his/he own attitude and not everyone would like it. So let's focus on content.

What the authorities, and some of us here, don't see is that there are innocent visitors who fall prey to those illegal visa services. Those that got duped into paying out a sum for the convenience of not having to go to the border.

My Filipina maid does a visa run to the Cambodian border every 30 days. She physically goes over the border and gets it stamped coming back in. No problems there. (so far)

[bazza]

sorry i have to disagree, i think this whole sorry business will turn quite a few people who might have come here. theres lots of other countries people can visit.theres the terrorsit threat also, dont forget that

i must also beg the question why is this story being kept under wraps by the thai media. have you guys noticed theres been nothing in the bangkok post/nation. the reason is they have been gagged by the thai government who are shitting themselves in the run up to the APEC summit, lest any thing bad should get out and show up thailand in a bad light.

so imagine the shame and loss of face in the eyes of the world if it got out that thailand is full of corrupt police and immigration officials. and that hundreds of ordinary toursits got caught up in a visa scam in which they were innocent victims.the government are obviously trying to protect the tourist industry from any adverse publicity.thats why its all hush hush at the moment.

its a fallacy to think that there will be no knock on affect.surely ther will be repurcussions....

[Khun ?]

Agreed.

I think attitudes should not be attacked here. Everyone has his/he own attitude and not everyone would like it. So let's focus on content.

What the authorities, and some of us here, don't see is that there are innocent visitors who fall prey to those illegal visa services. Those that got duped into paying out a sum for the convenience of not having to go to the border.

My Filipina maid does a visa run to the Cambodian border every 30 days. She physically goes over the border and gets it stamped coming back in. No problems there. (so far)

Does your maid have a work permit. I would be very careful of what you are doing before you get arrested for hiring illegal

workers. I would not say many of these people are duped at all and only claim ignorance for convience. I have never needed the service but know many that did and it was one of the first things they say is do not use the illegal visa services

as it will be a problem some day. 10 out of 10 farangs in a bar would tell you the same thing.

[Indo-Siam]

Hey bazza -

Clearly, what you were after in making your post was for all your mates to come wipe up your tears, and pat you on the back, and tell you that you are a poor, mistreated, misunderstood fellow.  You clearly have no interest in anyone who has an alternate view that does not support your little crying circle.

What is so strange about a country saying:  come here as a genuine tourist - no problem.  

Come here in retirement, after a lifetime of work - no problem.  Come here and be gainfully employed - no problem.

The key word is employment.  Employed persons are welcome - short or long term - as tourists, or as non-immigrant residents.  Tourists are generally people who are on vacation from jobs that they perform elsewhere.  

But - come here and try to stay as an unemployed person - well, we aren't interested in having you stay here.

It's simple - if you are legally employed here, you don't have a problem.   If you aren't employed here - what - are you saying that I'm supposed to be impressed with an unemployed guy crying in his beer?

I know EXACTLY what it is like to stand in Bangkok and say - well, I've got enough cash in the bank to live here for about five years doing absolutely nothing - living off stored fat. No risk.  Or - I could use that money to create a business, and provide myself a job that I literally created myself.  But this requires taking the risk of losing all.  I took that risk.   It has not been easy.  I have worked every day for 18 months.  I've been squeezed for bribes, I've been sued (and lost) in labor court, I've been forced to relocate my company offices because my landlord sold my building and new owner said "move".  I've had customers default on payments.  I've abandoned one business direction after a Thai business owner in my intended industry took me to dinner and made it clear that if I wanted to play in that industry, I needed a strong Thai partner - him.  I've had computer records wiped out by a virus after letting a subscription run out on an anti-virus screen.  I've taken my lumps.  I don't whine about the problems - I suck it up, always telling myself "That which does not kill us shall make us strong."  

Go read this: Man in The Arena

You seem to be the spokesman for the "do nothing, and then cry when they tell you you're not wanted" faction.  Your argument is that Thailand is hurting itself by putting pressure on all the unemployed foreigners to leave.  

I know about being unemployed as a short-term, interim condition of life.  I don't know much about making it into a permament lifestyle. Maybe you can tell us more about what that is like.

You asked the question - I rephrased it:  Is Thailand shooting itself in the foot by giving all the unemployed farang visitors the boot?  I then answered it by saying "I don't think so."

We should know more by about the end of this year.

You want to start a business?  Come see me.  I'll do my best to help you succeed.  But - frankly - I don't have much time for "those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat".

Indo-Siam

[MaiChai]

Indo-Siam, you have a bit of a chip there. Whats wrong with foreigners sitting around all day doing nothing. I suspect they are spending money. Hot countries are not condusive to large amounts of physical labour.

Thais are past masters at sitting around all day and doing nothing. Take a look at your average country Thai; rice has been planted, takes three months to grow, keep an eye on the water level, give it some fertilizer once or twice, otherwise nothing to do all day but drink illegal cheap rice whiskey.  :laugh:

[taxexile]

indo siam

your posts seem to be fuelled less by logic,but by a hatred of all things "dodgy",as you put it.some people are quite content to live simply on a small amount.they dont want or need more.

you have taken a risk and after 18 months of hard work and hassle,you have had some success.well done.good luck.

but dont preach to the world that yours is the only way of life and we should all become risk taking business persons.it takes all sorts in this world.

you seem to look down your nose at those who choose an easier way,those who choose to survive by their wits ,or those who perhaps through luck or circumstance do not need to struggle for success in the business world.

you seem to be  full of bile and  anger towards those not doing things your way.there are many ways towards personal fulfilment in life, and maybe coming here with some assets after a few years hard work and winding down,chilling out,retiring or maybe just to have a good time is one way of doing that.

if your business life is too hard for you,if you get angry every time you look out of your office window and see a farang just strolling along taking in the sights,well maybe its time you paid more regard to your blood pressure than to your business.

i cant fault your arguments about these new regulations,the thais are entitled to pass whatever laws they see fit,but your attitude behind them is intolerant and unpleasant.live and let live.

"That which does not kill us shall make us strong."  

watch that blood presure indo.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Even the endless 30 day extenders without much in the way of visible support ? They are the one's they are seeking to get out of harms way.

[taxexile]

what exactly do you mean by no visible means of support?

if these 30 day visa extenders are staying on here for, say nine months or a year,as tourists (backpackers)bussing their way around the countries in this region, living on a budget,well whats wrong with that? they pay their way,even if it is only a few dollars a day,and they have enough money for their trip,when the money runs out they usually go home. they may ruffle a few feathers with their hairy armpits and lack of style, but they should be welcomed here,they invariably sing the praises of thailand when they get home and probably do more than anyone to raise the profile of thailand as a good tourist destination.kicking them out will harm thailands profile as they get back and relate their stories of immigration horrors.and they support a lot of small businesses around the country,the money going directly to small enterprises.in my view,the best way to build up an economy.

if they are living here as heavy bar punters,here for the girls and the beer,living their dream on the coast at pattaya or wherever,well they pay their way also,they renew their visas every 30 days or whenever.they also have money from overseas. it then becomes a moral judgement as to whether you approve of that kind of lifestyle or you cross the road when you encounter one in the street.

if thailand wants to improve its image regarding sex tourists,then it should close the bars before throwing people out. the people  will then leave of their own accord.closing the bars will hurt a lot of businesses as well, but bar owners know the risks and must be aware that enterprises like that are always on borrowed time.i dont think the thai economy would  suffer so much.

as for people working here illegally,and border running every 30 days , they are breaking the law,and should be stopped.

but are there really so many of them?

i really cant figure out what exactly the government are actually trying to achieve with all.

[Indo-Siam]

Taxexile -

I have no problem with folks wanting to live the good life - savor the fruits of their earlier labor, etc.

This thread was about "Thailand making a big mistake shoving valuable economic contributors out the door."

'Guy comes on and posts this proposition on a public DISCUSSION BOARD.

Another poster named Heng states a fairly brief dissention - in a fairly light-hearted way.  I've said nothing up to that point.  I look at both arguments.  I then side with Heng -  and I briefly lay out my assessment of what is going on.

I do use the terms "dodgy characters" and "marginal characters".  Well - I live vicinity lower Sukhumvit.  My business is on Asoke.  Every week I see hundreds of foreigners.  I see tourists, I see hard working people, and I see idle people.  Well - I have been listening over the past month - as the pressure mounts on a certain population of foreigners.  And you know what - I've yet to hear a tourist here on vacation whine.  I've also not seen any serious businesmen here raise an eyebrow - they could care less. If I line up all the whiners I have heard - you know what - not a tourist or a working person among them.  Is this entire population a bunch of bums - no.  Is a good portion of this population a bunch of "marginal" characters?  Yes it is.  And you must be joking to suggest that the affected population does not include a significant collection of "dodgy" or "marginal" souls.  Just about EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER THAT IS DODGY that I know about is in this population.  But - not 100% of the affected population is marginals - I agree on that point.

So - let's just write off all those who we would both class as marginal drones (I assume that even you would agree that there are a fair number of low-life farangs crawling around).  Then we focus on the rest.  What is their future?  Well, here is what I see on this board:

1.  Guys suggesting letter-writing campaigns to shame Thailand into letting everybody just hang out here.

2.  Guys blaming embassiesfor letting all the decent citizens get hoodwinked by dodgy visa busineses that everyone felt were legitimate.

3.  Guys on here trying to wish into existence an amnesty campaign

4.  Guys like bazza trying to do I don't know what - form a hand-wringing circle?

And so on.  A bunch of folks who are doing everything but moving themselves into one of the categories that Thailand is allowing to stay.

So - I stand up and say - "Hey, you can always take charge of the situation yourself and create your own legal presence here" - but it takes work, and some risk.

And then you come along and brow-beat me for being a hard-ass.  I don't know how you were raised.  I don't know how bazza was raised.  I was raised by parents from two sides of the Atlantic ocean who both watched their entire childhoods go down the tubes due to a worldwide depression, and who then both got sucked into a world war that exposed them to misery and death all around them.  And they sucked it up and survived, and they then raised me.  And they taught me to go out and take the world on, and don't whine.  If you don't like something, then go and do something about it.  Or leave.  Don't whine.

So - anyway - I'm not trying to be anyone's role model.  But I'm also not afraid to say to the dodgy guys who slid by for so long - hey, buddy, tough for you.  Don't come to me for sympathy.  

My comments are critical of dodgy guys.  If you aren't a dodgy guy, you shouldn't care what I say.  If you are a dodgy guy, then - well, I guess my comments are kicking you in the face.   Why not change your spots?  Get a job.  Make yourself desirable to Thailand.  That seems like an almost infallible solution.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[danbo]

Dr P - if a person is under 50, and not married to a Thai, is not being a "30 day" or "60 day"  extender the only way of staying in Thailand as a "long term tourist";  regardless of the level of support available (10M Baht investor excluded) ?

If a person not under 50 and married to a Thai is spending 50-60K Baht a month and not working then what is the difference (financially to Thailand) between them and someone on a 2-week package tour to Phuket?

[KenUdon]

Deleted

[bazza]

indo-siam ......you seem to have a holier than thou attitude. and its quite presumptious of you to assume that just because someone does not have a proper visa , that they are "dodgy"

by the same analogy then you are saying that everyone all over the world without the proper visas/paperwork is  worthless , and inherently bad.

dont you think you are being slightly judgemental, especially as you  have probably  never even associated with the very people you seem to despise so much.

lighten up a little.

[taxexile]

you send long long posts indo,,business a bit slow????

   only joking.

you make a lot of sense and really i cant argue with much of what you say, but, it seems to be laced with some bitterness.

i cant hear your voice,or see your face, so i dont know if it is bitterness or i'm just reading that in. i too live lower sukhumvit and often feel ashamed to be a falang here when i see what goes on, and it has got a lot worse over the past few years.i dont know what the answer is. a lot of the sukhumvit types are big cheese business men,here legitimately.

as for me, i've always worked,never asked for a penny in benefit,i've secured my future,and i'm here(or will be in a month,when my business in the uk is completed) to relax for a year or so. i will be legitimate,and probably,when suitably chilled and a little bored,if the situation is condusive to it,open a business with my wife.

i have great sympathy for those (most of them, anyway) who have been caught up in the visa scam. many were unaware of the illegality of it.and should be slapped on the wrist,not bundled off to spend days in a cell. an amnesty would be a honourable way for the thais to close this.

yes, a lot of those whingeing about this feel sorry that their plans for a cheap life here for evermore have been dashed,and for them,well they will have to adapt to the new situation or leave.

but i will defend any mans right to sit on his arse all day and do nothing if he can afford to.

its been good "arguing" with you

[the scouser]

A few years ago there was an industrial dispute at British Airways and at a meeting one of the managers turned to the staff and said that they could either fit in or <deleted> off. That is the situation we now have here.

Every country has laws governing immigration and Thailand is no exception in having the inalienable right to do so. No one who is not native to a particular country has the God-given right or expectation to be able to stay in that country indefinitely.

Unfortunately, most countries' immigration policies are geared towards money. If you either have it or are productive you are more than welcome. If you don't fit into either of those categories then you're not.

I don't think Indo-Siam is being judgemental or smug, he's just telling it how it is. Those who don't like it will have to take the British Airways' manager's advice.

Regards,

Scouse.

[Heng]

Not offended at all Bazza.   And yes, I'm Thai (usually post over at the TIThailand board) from the US, but now living in BKK.   Just being realistic as well.   I think the tourism comment is off the mark at being the # 1 industry.   The trickle down from those tourist spots you mention isn't as much as you think (IMO).   It's some nice icing to those service type businesses (hotels, guest houses, restaurants, etc.), but even those would survive without tourists.  Perhaps an exception would be the upper tier resort type operations and of course the tour companies themselves that would suffer (and are truly dependent) as a result of a huge tourist drop off.   Of course Thailand is only a developing economy.   But saying that it is completely dependent on tourism is to say that California could not survive without Disneyland or the LA Lakers.    

I think the thousands of export driven SMEs, those related to agricultural exports (rice, orchids, etc.), narcotics exports, cross border gambling, heavy industrial estate export type businesses, etc. would disagree that they depend on tourism somehow.   Some figures would be nice for comparision, maybe I'll google a few when I have some time.    

I'm not calling anyone dodgy here either, BTW.  

[francois]

Posted: Sep. 24 2003,10:20

yes heng im sorry to tell you that it is indeed true. tourism is thailands major industry and source of foreign currency.thailand is a third world economy, its not a wealthy or industrialized nation.

millions of thai people depend on tourism for their living, if you take all the guest houses, hotels, resorts, travel agencies,restaurants and bars that depend on tourists to provide jobs for the locals, and you suddenly start making problems for these tourists, jailing them and treating innocent people as criminals people are going to get turned off and go somewhere else.

farang tourists spend alot more money than the average thai person  and so the thai economy would be in crisis if a large portion of people suddenly stopped coming here.just look at Phuket during the sars outbreak, thousands of people lost their jobs

sorry if my comments offend you ( you are a thai after all arent you ?) im just being realistic.

dont fool yourself heng into thinking that thailand doesnt need tourists, what about ko samui, pattaya , Khao san road,patpong etc.... do you think these places would exist without farangs . believe me you guys need us much more than we will ever need you.

well, it seems to me that comments are going a little too far and surely not very wisely  ???

one thing for sure we "expats" are not absolutly necessary to Thai economy exept for a very few who have important key job in big companies hired for their skills or for their professional experience.

we are quite a lot leaving here, for many different reasons,

but noneof us has to be looked down because he or she is here leaving on a pension, just because life "used" to be easier than in Europe for them.

tourism is going to be affected a little as most of people coming here never stay so long, I know a lot of guys comingto spend the winter out of Europe, shopping fot the summer market ovethere.

Backpackers will be affected, as coming and going, staying around, party in Phan Ghang ... it does look like that it doesn't fit what Thais expect from tourists, and truly speaking there are a lot of place for full-moon party else than Thailand, no?  

all this does affect all of us, in many different ways, but is it usefull to turn back to Thais saying so many things that for sure they don't appreciate  ???

besides, we still love to live here, so give the Thais a break, it's not their reponsability, it's only a government stuff, and

even if we fell very much cocerned a lot about, let's keep it cool, anyway, at the end, we will have to play the rules, so what is worth for keeping on writing about Thai governement,

this is not our born-country, so we have to accept things like they are coming, even if we feel the injustice, and the tough way it is applied  

like I said some of us will stay because they meet the requirements, and some will have to leave because they don't ...

is immigration in europe very different?

get caught with a fake visa stamp and you will see  

[plachon]

Good for you Taxexile for so eloquently defending someone's right to be "economically unproductive" and still be a useful and essential member of any society. The "drones" Indosiam refers to are mostly products of over-industrialised societies and totalitarian states. Now, I couldn't give a flying fig if the tourist industry dropped by half tomorrow, but I really do not think Thailand is doing itself any favours at all by locking up people for visa stamp misdemeanours and blindly cracking down on long-term staying conditions, unless it is SEEN to be conducted in an even handed and fair manner. So far it is not passing the litmus test, and i think ultimately will do itself no favours by adding another "negative" to the long list it's already bagged for itself. I'm sure most of the really undesirables could be excluded by applying, without favours, the many laws already on the statute books, but allowed to be circumvented/ignored for so long. Trouble is they'd be locking up far more compatriates than foregners if this was ever reality.