What Is A Native English Speaker?

[TVmonitor]

Why do you need "native" speakers?

It's possible, probable that they won't know the technicalities of grammar as well as some "fluent" non-native speakers - the the benefit comes from an "instinctive" or subliminal ability to get rhythm, stress and tone correct.

................then you need to train them to teach etc etc - but unless you start with a native speaker your chances of imparting those qualities are greatly reduced.

Just listen to the newsreaders and language on MCOT!!!!

You can find many flient speakers from other cultures all over the world, but they are instantly recognisable as "non-native" and although quite understandable in daily conversation, their communication is full of mistakes.

It seems to be a native speaker or that standard one would need to have grown up in an English speaking country if not ffrom birth at least from pre-teens.

[BugJackBaron]

Salman Rushdie's own view, on receiving the James Joyce Award:

"My little contribution has been to create an Indian English to go alongside the Irish English, Caribbean English and Australian English."

Garro, I'm sorry but at no point have I tried to say that there are minor differences in the English used by what we are terming here NS and NNS. All I'm suggesting is that there are now recognized standard varieties of English (and yes the debate is still open), like Indian English and Singapore English, and they have their own speakers. That is a very tiny proportion of the population of those countries, and within those countries often the vast majority of the people have no more than a smattering of English at best. Quite obviously, I wouldn't suggest that they should ever contemplate teaching English.

On the other hand, I would be much happier to have a native speaker of standard Indian English or Singapore English teach my kids English than, for example, the Canadian squaddie I once worked alongside at a language school in Thailand whose competence in any kind of standard English was non-existent (no reflection of Canadian squaddies in general). There's nothing wrong with colloquial forms of English, but if that's all you've got, I don't think you've got what's required to be an English teacher (I'm not including accent here by the way).

Singlish is not standard Singapore English but is the colloquial form. It is the only form of English many Singaporeans have and I wouldn't ask them to consider a career as an English teacher. More educated Singaporeans are likely to be able to switch between Singlish and Standard Singapore English (like I could switch between pub talk at the football and giving an academic presentation at a conference). From those who are speakers of the standard variety, there are also likely to be some who have the aptitude to make English language teachers.

Japanese is not often claimed as an international language. It's interesting to me that while people are eager to stress the importance of English as an international language, the teaching of it appears to have been so poor that only native speakers are thought to be proficient enough to teach it or claim it as their own.

I think you are trying to read more into Rushdie's remarks than he intended. Australian English is simply a dialect insofar as it has its own vocabulary and prounciation. It still follows the same grammatical rules as

British English(or American). Keep in mind that Aussies learn ENglish as L1.

Signaporeans I am not so sure...is it Chinese, English or both? But interference between languages does occur and some of the problems we have in our school are precisely due to freshmen being trained in English by Singaporeans and Filipinos. Sorry if the truth hurts.

I have no problem with nonnatives teaching English. I do have a problem with mistakes being made and then swept under the rug with " well that's our version of English".

[KhaoNiaw]

I think you are trying to read more into Rushdie's remarks than he intended. Australian English is simply a dialect insofar as it has its own vocabulary and prounciation. It still follows the same grammatical rules as

British English(or American). Keep in mind that Aussies learn ENglish as L1.

You're still not seeing the point here. Standard Indian English, standard Singaporean English etc. are structurally almost the same as the native Englishes. Differences are no more significant than the differences between US and British grammar. The main differences are vocabulary and pronunciation. A standard variety doesn't consist of language learners murdering English grammar - it is as standard and systematic as any other English variety.

I'm sure Rushdie was well aware of what he was saying because it's an issue in India, where there has been much controversy over whether standard Indian English should be used as the language of the education system.

Edited June 17, 2009 by KhaoNiaw

[BugJackBaron]

I think you are trying to read more into Rushdie's remarks than he intended. Australian English is simply a dialect insofar as it has its own vocabulary and prounciation. It still follows the same grammatical rules as

British English(or American). Keep in mind that Aussies learn ENglish as L1.

You're still not seeing the point here. Standard Indian English, standard Singaporean English etc. are structurally almost the same as the native Englishes. Differences are no more significant than the differences between US and British grammar. The main differences are vocabulary and pronunciation. A standard variety doesn't consist of language learners murdering English grammar - it is as standard and systematic as any other English variety.

I'm sure Rushdie was well aware of what he was saying because it's an issue in India, where there has been much controversy over whether standard Indian English should be used as the language of the education system.

If that was your point then I have no quarrel. There are many English dialects. 

On the other hand, if I were a director of a school would I really want some incomprehensible "native speaker"  with a super strong accent - be it Indian, Scottish, or whatever - teaching my students?

 I have occasionally seen such teachers and wonder how the students will say "hello" at the end of the day.

[PeaceBlondie]

The clear standard in teaching EFL/ESL worldwide is to teach students to speak without a noticeable accent. That is taught to trainees, whether they come from inner city Detroit or outer Isaan. The Aussie EFL professor mistook me for a Brit, not a Geordie or Texan.

[garro]

I think you are trying to read more into Rushdie's remarks than he intended. Australian English is simply a dialect insofar as it has its own vocabulary and prounciation. It still follows the same grammatical rules as

British English(or American). Keep in mind that Aussies learn ENglish as L1.

You're still not seeing the point here. Standard Indian English, standard Singaporean English etc. are structurally almost the same as the native Englishes. Differences are no more significant than the differences between US and British grammar. The main differences are vocabulary and pronunciation. A standard variety doesn't consist of language learners murdering English grammar - it is as standard and systematic as any other English variety.

I'm sure Rushdie was well aware of what he was saying because it's an issue in India, where there has been much controversy over whether standard Indian English should be used as the language of the education system.

Where is the evidence that Indian standard English is a separate English and not just standard English with L2 interference? I find it hard to imagine that such a large continent, with so many separate languages, would develop one form of English that could be called Indian English.

As for Salmun Rusdie. I have read his work and as far as I'm concerned it is standard English; albeit, flowery,self-absorbed, wordy <deleted>

[KhaoNiaw]

Where is the evidence that Indian standard English is a separate English and not just standard English with L2 interference?

A couple of suggestions for starters:

The Handbook of World Englishes

World Englishes

World Englishes in Asian Contexts

As you're interested in the subject, they should be worth a read whether you find the evidence convincing or not,

As for Salmun Rusdie. I have read his work and as far as I'm concerned it is standard English; albeit, flowery,self-absorbed, wordy <deleted>

The penny is beginning to drop.

Edited June 18, 2009 by KhaoNiaw

[garro]

Where is the evidence that Indian standard English is a separate English and not just standard English with L2 interference?

A couple of suggestions for starters:

The Handbook of World Englishes

World Englishes

As you're interested in the subject, they should be worth a read whether you find the evidence convincing or not,

As for Salmun Rusdie. I have read his work and as far as I'm concerned it is standard English; albeit, flowery,self-absorbed, wordy <deleted>

The penny is beginning to drop.

Thanks for the links. I will put them on my reading list so long as neither book is written by Salmun Rushdie.

I don't think that Salmun Rushdie is representative of any group of Indian English Speakers. He may have been born in India, but he had an extremely privileged education in British schools with British teachers. He then went to study in Cambridge. How could his English be considered representative of some Indian English? I doubt if anyone from this type of background would be teaching ESL in Thailand anyway.

[TVmonitor]

teach students to speak without a noticeable accent. - Yeah! like that could even be a remote possibility!

Like the little old lady said - "I'm from Edinburgh and I don't have an accent"

[a99az]

For me the question of whether or not someone is a native speaker is an easy one; it is my mother tongue and any language that I pick up at a later date will not be my native language no matter how much effort I put in to it. The mother tongue was learnt without an internal vocabulary, but any new language depends on my current vocabulary. I think that in Thailand this distinction becomes blurred; for some people native English speaker means being white, for others it means having a certain accent, while for others it means being able to speak English well enough. This would all be irrelevant except for the fact that being seen as a native speaker can not only affect your ability to get a job, but also the pay and conditions once you are in the job.

Many foreign teachers believe that the term 'native speaker' is purely a race issue. They see the tern 'native speaker' as being code for white person. Some of the Filipino teachers point out that their country now has English as an official language so they should be classified as native speakers (perhaps Thailand should follow this example and rather than spend money on English teachers, just list it as an official language of Thailand). Race does cloud the issue in Thailand, but I feel there is more to it than just this. I don't agree that having a good understanding of English is the same as speaking/understanding it like a native.

There is also those who argue that having a certain accent is what being a native speaker is all about. The Irish and Scots lose out here as many believe these accents are too difficult; American English become the prestige native speaker accent with all others being seen as at most second best. My point here is not to get into the debate about which accent is better, but about the perceptions people have.

I always just considered myself a native English speaker without much thought as to what this actually means; I didn't need to think about it. Living and working in Thailand though has made me question lots of my assumptions. Does native speaker mean your mother tongue? Will my son who is being brought up with two languages while living in Thailand be considered a native English speaker?

What exactly is a native English speaker and should it matter?

An English speaking Englishmann or woman. What what.

[PeaceBlondie]

teach students to speak without a noticeable accent. - Yeah! like that could even be a remote possibility!

Like the little old lady said - "I'm from Edinburgh and I don't have an accent"

Since you quoted me out on context, let's go back to it:

"teach students to speak without a noticeable accent. That is taught to trainees, whether they come from inner city Detroit or outer Isaan. The Aussie EFL professor mistook me for a Brit, not a Geordie or Texan."

[TVmonitor]

teach students to speak without a noticeable accent. - Yeah! like that could even be a remote possibility!

Like the little old lady said - "I'm from Edinburgh and I don't have an accent"

Since you quoted me out on context, let's go back to it:

"teach students to speak without a noticeable accent. That is taught to trainees, whether they come from inner city Detroit or outer Isaan. The Aussie EFL professor mistook me for a Brit, not a Geordie or Texan."

What context? please xplain..... - I'm laughing at the CONCEPT of a "noticeable accent"

Edited June 19, 2009 by TVmonitor

[PeaceBlondie]

When you learn to speak standard English, you may sound like a BBC presenter, an Indiana disc jockey, a Melbourne TV anchor - so that even a PhD professor of EFL can't come within 2,500 miles of guessing your 'accent'. That is standard English, spoken by a kid raised around Chicago, who spent over 35 years in Texas and Oklahoma. Only my rhotic /r/ and y'all set me apart. The prof spoke unaccented Australian; our resident rocket scientist from London spoke English like my African-American coworker, who also had spent years at Alamagordo.

Lose almost all trace of 'accent' to teach EFL/ESL.

[TVmonitor]

When you learn to speak standard English, you may sound like a BBC presenter, an Indiana disc jockey, a Melbourne TV anchor - so that even a PhD professor of EFL can't come within 2,500 miles of guessing your 'accent'. That is standard English, spoken by a kid raised around Chicago, who spent over 35 years in Texas and Oklahoma. Only my rhotic /r/ and y'all set me apart. The prof spoke unaccented Australian; our resident rocket scientist from London spoke English like my African-American coworker, who also had spent years at Alamagordo.

Lose almost all trace of 'accent' to teach EFL/ESL.

What you describe IS an accent!

whaen it comes to UK I can tell within 20 miles where almost anyone comes from - that includes newscasters! - I do it by their accent.

Edited June 19, 2009 by TVmonitor

[PeaceBlondie]

Fine; you win, TV monitor. We all have accents, which even Australian EFL professors can't distinguish within 4,015 miles. Wow, you're great.

[Ijustwannateach]

I've cleaned up this thread a bit, with a warning to one poster.

[bungy007]

I've cleaned up this thread a bit, with a warning to one poster.

Wow! Off topic but it has to be said. All the warnings being dished out when opinions seem to get deep and topics become interesting. Shame

It has to be said about accents that Australians state that they only have once accent - which I have also found to be the case. However, as that one accent covers a lot of speakers of English, IELTS incorporate it in their examation of aural comprehension. In stark contrast, as another poster pointet out, the UK has a wealth of accents within England plus those of the Scots, Welsh and Irish. They are all legitimate accents, regardless of their ability to be understood by those who are unfamiliar with them. I spent six months in Newcastle and it took me a whole month to come to grips with 'Geordie'. Accents are here to stay so they need to be dealt with, I'm afriad

Edited June 22, 2009 by bungy007