Battered Tourism Sector Seeks Urgent Government Help

[judgedredd]

Ah, the "Visa Facts" - - may I add something to that category? Beechguy mentioned 39 nationalities, which includes persons who receive 30 day Visa-on-Arrival (VOA). Please, then, tell me which Thai law allows the Immigration Police to apparently blatantly discriminate in favor of certain "ASEAN" Nationals, who receive 90 day VOA, every trip, unending?

My girlfriend is Japanese, and she travels on a Japanese passport. She has several Japanese and South Korean friends. They all get 90-days VOA, regardless of where or how they enter Thailand, or how many times. They do not have special diplomatic status, nothing like that, nor do they have the APEC Travel card, nor do they have work permits, nor are they engaged in business here, nor do they have non-immigrant B visas, no embassy-issued tourist visas, nothing. They simply show up, as tourists, and they get 90 days every swinging time. Can you explain that one to me?

[Jingthing]

Can you explain that one to me?

Different rules for different nationalities. That is normal. Its based on relationships between countries and also economic realities. Nationals from countries such as Thailand which have a high rate of economic refugee potential cannot travel easily to first world countries. Its a perhaps unpleasant fact of life.

[JR Texas]

I have lived and worked in this confusing place for 30 months, and are coming here for years and will come for years to come, however, it is pretty obvious, if the authorities do not wake up and accept the fact that the numbers of visitors going down not only because of a mixture of political turbulence, global recession and the outbreak of global epidemics (even though these may be the most vital facts at the moment) but also out of the fact that they simply ignore the fact, that other countries , like the Phils, Vietnam and Indonesia also do have good service and most likely better cared of hotels, they will undoubtedly fall into an even bigger hole. I have taken part in one similar crisis in South America years ago and it took years to recover for the industry.

Little nonsense, like trying to throw a tipsy tourist into one of their hel_l holes for years for allegedly steeling a beer map, petty rip offs all over the place, specially in tourist areas, total lack of language capacities at even the largest hotels, lack of adequate transport facilities (still no decent taxis available in Pattaya or Phuket), overpricing tourists at street bars in Bangkok, 150THB charges on credit card withdrawals from public ATM's, complicated and expensive visa procedures for long term residents, etc. etc, etc. ....does the rest.

Not even talking about the fact that Thailand is far away from being a cheap tourist destination anymore. The price increases during the last recent years were obvious even for anyone only coming once per year. No country has to be cheap, in order to attract tourists, but if you charge, you have to deliver.

All these facts are supported by a far better information structure like internet, email, online newspapers, forums, bloggs etc. so that it takes physically only minutes to roll another screw up around the world.

The authorities have to wake up. We live in a globalized environment and also Thailand cannot exclude itself from it. (look at Iran!!!)You can not hide no more. Not only technology plays against you but also your own acts (or non acting or reacting).

Please....this is only facts, so I don't want to hear any bs like: Stay away if you don't like it. I have dealt with it in the past and are able deal with it in the future, but I am financially and otherwise prepared for impacts like this.

Totally agree with you..........the arrogance of those charged with promoting Thailand as a tourism destination (and by that I mean short time tourists and long stay resident tourists) is troubling........the bury-your-head-in-the-sand-because-nothing-is-wrong response is troubling.......the love it or leave it response is troubling. In the end, reality bites.....and reality is biting right now from the looks of things.

[Jingthing]

lack of adequate transport facilities (still no decent taxis available in Pattaya or Phuket)

You're preaching to the choir, mate!

As far as Thailand no longer being cheap for most westerners, HOW TRUE, but I find when I try to explain that to Thais they totally freak out and REFUSE to even believe it. This belief system, CHEAP FOR YOU, seems to be INGRAINED into the mass Thai mentality and impervious to changing conditions. That could explain the prices rises when there should be price cuts.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[mommysboy]

lack of adequate transport facilities (still no decent taxis available in Pattaya or Phuket)

You're preaching to the choir, mate!

As far as Thailand no longer being cheap for most westerners, HOW TRUE, but I find when I try to explain that to Thais they totally freak out and REFUSE to even believe it. This belief system, CHEAP FOR YOU, seems to be INGRAINED into the mass Thai mentality and impervious to changing conditions. That could explain the prices rises when there should be price cuts.

I agree completely and well put.

[beechguy]

Ah, the "Visa Facts" - - may I add something to that category? Beechguy mentioned 39 nationalities, which includes persons who receive 30 day Visa-on-Arrival (VOA). Please, then, tell me which Thai law allows the Immigration Police to apparently blatantly discriminate in favor of certain "ASEAN" Nationals, who receive 90 day VOA, every trip, unending?

My girlfriend is Japanese, and she travels on a Japanese passport. She has several Japanese and South Korean friends. They all get 90-days VOA, regardless of where or how they enter Thailand, or how many times. They do not have special diplomatic status, nothing like that, nor do they have the APEC Travel card, nor do they have work permits, nor are they engaged in business here, nor do they have non-immigrant B visas, no embassy-issued tourist visas, nothing. They simply show up, as tourists, and they get 90 days every swinging time. Can you explain that one to me?

I find alot of the information is listed under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the country involved. It's not unusual at all for countries to have agreements that favor certain nationalities. You may be interested to look and see if your home country has special agreements that apply to only a few nations.

Edited June 20, 2009 by beechguy

[loong]

but I find when I try to explain that to Thais they totally freak out and REFUSE to even believe it. This belief system, CHEAP FOR YOU, seems to be INGRAINED into the mass Thai mentality and impervious to changing conditions.

I know a farang, married about 18 months patiently explained to his wife that the Pound had dropped by a third against the Baht, so effectively everything in Thailand had increased in price by 50%.. She listened and nodded as he said that they had to be more careful with money as they weren't so rich anymore.

Within an hour of that conversation - "So you buy new car soon?"

There does seem to be an attitude that farangs have unlimited supplies of cash and that tourists can just pay, pay, pay without giving it a second thought. Money finished? - just go ATM.

The reality is still to set in to those related to the tourist industry.

Edited June 20, 2009 by loong

[Samuian]

but I find when I try to explain that to Thais they totally freak out and REFUSE to even believe it. This belief system, CHEAP FOR YOU, seems to be INGRAINED into the mass Thai mentality and impervious to changing conditions.

I know a farang, married about 18 months patiently explained to his wife that the Pound had dropped by a third against the Baht, so effectively everything in Thailand had increased in price by 50%.. She listened and nodded as he said that they had to be more careful with money as they weren't so rich anymore.

Within an hour of that conversation - "So you buy new car soon?"

Expect nothin' else!

it's how they - many of 'em are...

One thing has NO connection to the other

and NO relevance at all!

[beechguy]

That's part of the problem, people can't be bothered to check the facts.

No, the problem is its too restrictive, complicated, and fast changing for average tourists. Countries that SINCERELY wish to welcome tourist from first world countries offer 3 or 6 month visa free tourist entries, no questions asked. The fact that Thailand doesn't is another proof of its inherit xenophobia.

If completeing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home.

As for tourist visas, it's a one page application, attach a photo or two, submit payment and drop in the mail. Again, if that's too complicated, is it wise for someone like that to leave home?

No need to mention other parts of the world, but the fact is, there are several neighboring countries you cannot enter without purchasing a visa. Could/should, Thailand make improvements, sure, I never said it shouldn't. But, when comparing Thailand to other countries, I don't see how it is the worse, or so far out of line.

As a matter of fact, as I mentioned above in another post, I think it would be good for many to take a look at the information posted on other countries websites. You'll find some basic requirements are similar from country to country.

Edited June 20, 2009 by beechguy

[cmsally]

In my opinion one of the most bizarre aspects is the 90 day reporting thingy.

If you have applied for a longer visa in the country they have your address anyway; I just don't see the point in it.

It just looks like a waste of paper and job creation. It seems to defeat the whole idea of giving people longer in the country when you make them traipse to immigration every 90 days.

[JR Texas]

In my opinion one of the most bizarre aspects is the 90 day reporting thingy.

If you have applied for a longer visa in the country they have your address anyway; I just don't see the point in it.

It just looks like a waste of paper and job creation. It seems to defeat the whole idea of giving people longer in the country when you make them traipse to immigration every 90 days.

Yes.......it is stupid beyond imagination. We have already gone through a security check.

Maybe they are afraid that we will morph into another type of "alien."

It just adds to the insecurity that all resident tourists feel (at least those with brains).

And by resident tourists, I mean all of us that don't have Thai citizenship or some form of permanent residency status.

[loong]

That's part of the problem, people can't be bothered to check the facts.

No, the problem is its too restrictive, complicated, and fast changing for average tourists. Countries that SINCERELY wish to welcome tourist from first world countries offer 3 or 6 month visa free tourist entries, no questions asked. The fact that Thailand doesn't is another proof of its inherit xenophobia.

If completeing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home.

As for tourist visas, it's a one page application, attach a photo or two, submit payment and drop in the mail. Again, if that's too complicated, is it wise for someone like that to leave home?

No need to mention other parts of the world, but the fact is, there are several neighboring countries you cannot enter without purchasing a visa. Could/should, Thailand make improvements, sure, I never said it shouldn't. But, when comparing Thailand to other countries, I don't see how it is the worse, or so far out of line.

As a matter of fact, as I mentioned above in another post, I think it would be good for many to take a look at the information posted on other countries websites. You'll find some basic requirements are similar from country to country.

"If completing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home."

Maybe another slogan that the TAT should consider adopting

Without a doubt the visa and immigration regulations are confusing to many. Various consulates seem to have their own rules that they change on a whim. They keep changing the rules re entry at a land border. They've restricted the amount of 30 day entries at an airport and then dispensed with the restriction. Most people can't keep up and most importantly they wonder if the rules will be the same next month as this month.

Just look at the amount of posts in the Visa section by people who just don't understand the rules. To us, they're obvious, but to many people who may be planning a trip here the rules are just too confusing. How many people don't understand and don't want to risk it, so opt for a holiday elsewhere.

[beechguy]

That's part of the problem, people can't be bothered to check the facts.

No, the problem is its too restrictive, complicated, and fast changing for average tourists. Countries that SINCERELY wish to welcome tourist from first world countries offer 3 or 6 month visa free tourist entries, no questions asked. The fact that Thailand doesn't is another proof of its inherit xenophobia.

If completeing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home.

As for tourist visas, it's a one page application, attach a photo or two, submit payment and drop in the mail. Again, if that's too complicated, is it wise for someone like that to leave home?

No need to mention other parts of the world, but the fact is, there are several neighboring countries you cannot enter without purchasing a visa. Could/should, Thailand make improvements, sure, I never said it shouldn't. But, when comparing Thailand to other countries, I don't see how it is the worse, or so far out of line.

As a matter of fact, as I mentioned above in another post, I think it would be good for many to take a look at the information posted on other countries websites. You'll find some basic requirements are similar from country to country.

"If completing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home."

Maybe another slogan that the TAT should consider adopting

Without a doubt the visa and immigration regulations are confusing to many. Various consulates seem to have their own rules that they change on a whim. They keep changing the rules re entry at a land border. They've restricted the amount of 30 day entries at an airport and then dispensed with the restriction. Most people can't keep up and most importantly they wonder if the rules will be the same next month as this month.

Just look at the amount of posts in the Visa section by people who just don't understand the rules. To us, they're obvious, but to many people who may be planning a trip here the rules are just too confusing. How many people don't understand and don't want to risk it, so opt for a holiday elsewhere.

Ok, let's put it this way. I don't recall ever entering(visa exempt or visa on arrival) a foreign country without completing an arrival card of some type, Thailand, just the same. Let me know if you know exceptions.

A tourist visa application to many countries, usually just requires general information, i.e. name, passport information, and usually an address or two. Again, Thailand about the same. Also, let me know if you know of exceptions.

The point is, much of the information required for a tourist to travel, is pretty standard from country to country. If they have trouble getting to and from Thailand, I would venture to guess they will have problems in other countries as well.

Edited June 20, 2009 by beechguy

[Jingthing]

Ok, let's put it this way. I don't recall ever entering(visa exempt or visa on arrival) a foreign country without completing an arrival card of some type, Thailand, just the same. Let me know if you know exceptions.

Yeah, but many countries give you 3 to 6 months for that, visa free! Why not Thailand?

[beechguy]

Ok, let's put it this way. I don't recall ever entering(visa exempt or visa on arrival) a foreign country without completing an arrival card of some type, Thailand, just the same. Let me know if you know exceptions.

Yeah, but many countries give you 3 to 6 months for that, visa free! Why not Thailand?

Which "many countries" would those be? I agree some are more liberal, Malaysia, Singapore, P.I. But, I had to pay to get a visa for Laos, my undertsanding I would have to get a visa for China, Viet Nam, Indonesia, and Cambodia just to even enter. How does that make Thailand so far out of line?

[Jingthing]

Countries that are SERIOUS about attacting tourists.

For examples:

Peru (90 days no visa), Mexico (six months, no visa), Argentina (90 days), Ecuador (90 days no visa) ...

[jumnien]

Tourists do not go en masse to places for 90 days or six months anyway.

[Jingthing]

Tourists do not go en masse to places for 90 days or six months anyway.

That is wrong. Snowbirds do!

Look at this from another angle. Mexico is a major tourism destination, and deservedly so. However, currently it is in deep trouble, massive violence from the drug dealer wars and associated with the swine flu. Do you think for one second the Mexican government would be SO STUPID as to make their visa program MORE RESTRICTIVE right now, cutting down the six months on arrival down to one month? That would be insane. Thailand needs the business right now, in my view the rational thing would be to RADICALLY LIBERALIZE their visa system right now. Of course they won't.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[loong]

If completeing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home.

As for tourist visas, it's a one page application, attach a photo or two, submit payment and drop in the mail. Again, if that's too complicated, is it wise for someone like that to leave home?

No need to mention other parts of the world, but the fact is, there are several neighboring countries you cannot enter without purchasing a visa. Could/should, Thailand make improvements, sure, I never said it shouldn't. But, when comparing Thailand to other countries, I don't see how it is the worse, or so far out of line.

As a matter of fact, as I mentioned above in another post, I think it would be good for many to take a look at the information posted on other countries websites. You'll find some basic requirements are similar from country to country.

"If completing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home."

Maybe another slogan that the TAT should consider adopting

Without a doubt the visa and immigration regulations are confusing to many. Various consulates seem to have their own rules that they change on a whim. They keep changing the rules re entry at a land border. They've restricted the amount of 30 day entries at an airport and then dispensed with the restriction. Most people can't keep up and most importantly they wonder if the rules will be the same next month as this month.

Just look at the amount of posts in the Visa section by people who just don't understand the rules. To us, they're obvious, but to many people who may be planning a trip here the rules are just too confusing. How many people don't understand and don't want to risk it, so opt for a holiday elsewhere.

Ok, let's put it this way. I don't recall ever entering(visa exempt or visa on arrival) a foreign country without completing an arrival card of some type, Thailand, just the same. Let me know if you know exceptions.

A tourist visa application to many countries, usually just requires general information, i.e. name, passport information, and usually an address or two. Again, Thailand about the same. Also, let me know if you know of exceptions.

The point is, much of the information required for a tourist to travel, is pretty standard from country to country. If they have trouble getting to and from Thailand, I would venture to guess they will have problems in other countries as well.

Are you incapable of reading a post before responding?

Did you see that I wrote ".....people who just don't understand the rules. To us, they're obvious, but to many people who may be planning a trip here the rules are just too confusing."

Why are you asking me if I know of exceptions? I understand the rules, but what did I post? That by looking at the Visa section of this forum it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that many people do not! You may well think that these people who don't understand must only have half a brain, but they are prospective tourists. They do a search on the internet and find a lot of conflicting information. Are you aware that most of the information on the internet is out of date. So any search will turn up rules from 5 years ago, last year, last month, last week and 1 hour ago. The rules change or are amended so often that it is obviously confusing to many people. That is why so many people post questions in the Visa section, because they do not understand what their options are today.

"The point is, much of the information required for a tourist to travel, is pretty standard from country to country."

Well that may be so, but do other countries change or amend their rules on such a regular basis? If I was researching on the internet for a possible holiday destination and was for example,comparing Thailand with Cambodia, I might well be confused with the information that any search turned up. The Cambodian embassy site give simple instructions and actually encourages people to just go to the border and re-enter if you want to extend your stay. Other information basically tells you that you can extend your cambodian stay almost anywhere. Thai embassy/consulate websites have info on Visa exempt entries, tourist visas ,a,b,c,d,e,f,g, or whatever the visas are. Why do so many people think that a one year "o" visa allows them to stay for 1 year?

Unless you are aware of the system, the Thai immigration/visa requirements are confusing to say the least.

[jumnien]

Tourists do not go en masse to places for 90 days or six months anyway.

That is wrong. Snowbirds do!

You've hit the nail on the head! The tourism industry in Thailand benefits from tourist arrivals of people interested in exploring Thai culture and enjoying what Thailand has to offer. It does not benefit from low-balling foreigners who are merely interested in escaping the intolerable environmental conditions in their home countries. These refugees of adverse meteorologically inhuman conditions inevitably settle down and quickly become whiners and complainers and general annoyances. They get caught in a mental death spiral wondering why things in Thailand aren't like they are back home where they can't afford to live and can't stand the weather.

[Jingthing]

Unless you are aware of the system, the Thai immigration/visa requirements are confusing to say the least.

Especially to serious traveler types who want to use Thailand as a hub and want to do LAND BORDER crossing. That change to 15 days really hurts people like that, people who spend money who want to spend a lot of time in Thailand.

BTW, I 100 percent reject the idea that snowbirds are an undesirable class. They may not travel around as much but they tend to indulge in things like medical tourism and support the local economy in the same way retired people do. That stuff about whining, so what, that doesn't cost the Thai people one baht.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[loong]

That stuff about whining, so what, that doesn't cost the Thai people one baht.

I never thought about that - you are so right!

Well to a degree anyway.

returning holidaymakers who relate a bad experience WILL possibly put off others from visiting Thailand.

[beechguy]

Tourists do not go en masse to places for 90 days or six months anyway.

That is wrong. Snowbirds do!

Look at this from another angle. Mexico is a major tourism destination, and deservedly so. However, currently it is in deep trouble, massive violence from the drug dealer wars and associated with the swine flu. Do you think for one second the Mexican government would be SO STUPID as to make their visa program MORE RESTRICTIVE right now, cutting down the six months on arrival down to one month? That would be insane. Thailand needs the business right now, in my view the rational thing would be to RADICALLY LIBERALIZE their visa system right now. Of course they won't.

Not arguing, just pointing out some facts, according to Wikipedia, if they are to be believed. The average stay ranged 9-12 days dependent on what year, another site listed Thailand at about 9 days. Are there people that stay longer, no doubt, is there any reason to make it more difficult? Not that I know of. But, Indonesia did a few years ago.

[loong]

Tourists do not go en masse to places for 90 days or six months anyway.

That is wrong. Snowbirds do!

Look at this from another angle. Mexico is a major tourism destination, and deservedly so. However, currently it is in deep trouble, massive violence from the drug dealer wars and associated with the swine flu. Do you think for one second the Mexican government would be SO STUPID as to make their visa program MORE RESTRICTIVE right now, cutting down the six months on arrival down to one month? That would be insane. Thailand needs the business right now, in my view the rational thing would be to RADICALLY LIBERALIZE their visa system right now. Of course they won't.

Not arguing, just pointing out some facts, according to Wikipedia, if they are to be believed. The average stay ranged 9-12 days dependent on what year, another site listed Thailand at about 9 days. Are there people that stay longer, no doubt, is there any reason to make it more difficult? Not that I know of. But, Indonesia did a few years ago.

Exactly, the average international tourist stays for 9 days and averages 4000 Baht per day spend. In other words, the average tourist spends 36,000 Baht in Thailand. Of course the average long stay foreigner that spends maybe 500,000 to 1 million Baht a year is worth Jack S**t. The average backpacker that may need to do multiple land entry exits and cant fly into Thailand without an ongoing flight ticket, maybe spending a year touring Asia doesn't spend more than 36,000 Baht?

[animatic]

Tourists do not go en masse to places for 90 days or six months anyway.

That is wrong. Snowbirds do!

Look at this from another angle. Mexico is a major tourism destination, and deservedly so. However, currently it is in deep trouble, massive violence from the drug dealer wars and associated with the swine flu. Do you think for one second the Mexican government would be SO STUPID as to make their visa program MORE RESTRICTIVE right now, cutting down the six months on arrival down to one month? That would be insane. Thailand needs the business right now, in my view the rational thing would be to RADICALLY LIBERALIZE their visa system right now. Of course they won't.

Not arguing, just pointing out some facts, according to Wikipedia, if they are to be believed. The average stay ranged 9-12 days dependent on what year, another site listed Thailand at about 9 days. Are there people that stay longer, no doubt, is there any reason to make it more difficult? Not that I know of. But, Indonesia did a few years ago.

Exactly, the average international tourist stays for 9 days and averages 4000 Baht per day spend. In other words, the average tourist spends 36,000 Baht in Thailand. Of course the average long stay foreigner that spends maybe 500,000 to 1 million Baht a year is worth Jack S**t. The average backpacker that may need to do multiple land entry exits and cant fly into Thailand without an ongoing flight ticket, maybe spending a year touring Asia doesn't spend more than 36,000 Baht?

That hits it on the head.

Where is your Thai bread really buttered?

I have traveled with a backpack, it's a lot easier than dragging the dam_n suitcase on wheels around.

But I suspect that 1 million baht a year is low.

[beechguy]

If completeing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home.

As for tourist visas, it's a one page application, attach a photo or two, submit payment and drop in the mail. Again, if that's too complicated, is it wise for someone like that to leave home?

No need to mention other parts of the world, but the fact is, there are several neighboring countries you cannot enter without purchasing a visa. Could/should, Thailand make improvements, sure, I never said it shouldn't. But, when comparing Thailand to other countries, I don't see how it is the worse, or so far out of line.

As a matter of fact, as I mentioned above in another post, I think it would be good for many to take a look at the information posted on other countries websites. You'll find some basic requirements are similar from country to country.

"If completing a card (30 day, exempt entry)with passport information, is too complicated, maybe they should consider staying home."

Maybe another slogan that the TAT should consider adopting

Without a doubt the visa and immigration regulations are confusing to many. Various consulates seem to have their own rules that they change on a whim. They keep changing the rules re entry at a land border. They've restricted the amount of 30 day entries at an airport and then dispensed with the restriction. Most people can't keep up and most importantly they wonder if the rules will be the same next month as this month.

Just look at the amount of posts in the Visa section by people who just don't understand the rules. To us, they're obvious, but to many people who may be planning a trip here the rules are just too confusing. How many people don't understand and don't want to risk it, so opt for a holiday elsewhere.

Ok, let's put it this way. I don't recall ever entering(visa exempt or visa on arrival) a foreign country without completing an arrival card of some type, Thailand, just the same. Let me know if you know exceptions.

A tourist visa application to many countries, usually just requires general information, i.e. name, passport information, and usually an address or two. Again, Thailand about the same. Also, let me know if you know of exceptions.

The point is, much of the information required for a tourist to travel, is pretty standard from country to country. If they have trouble getting to and from Thailand, I would venture to guess they will have problems in other countries as well.

Are you incapable of reading a post before responding?

Did you see that I wrote ".....people who just don't understand the rules. To us, they're obvious, but to many people who may be planning a trip here the rules are just too confusing."

Why are you asking me if I know of exceptions? I understand the rules, but what did I post? That by looking at the Visa section of this forum it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that many people do not! You may well think that these people who don't understand must only have half a brain, but they are prospective tourists. They do a search on the internet and find a lot of conflicting information. Are you aware that most of the information on the internet is out of date. So any search will turn up rules from 5 years ago, last year, last month, last week and 1 hour ago. The rules change or are amended so often that it is obviously confusing to many people. That is why so many people post questions in the Visa section, because they do not understand what their options are today.

"The point is, much of the information required for a tourist to travel, is pretty standard from country to country."

Well that may be so, but do other countries change or amend their rules on such a regular basis? If I was researching on the internet for a possible holiday destination and was for example,comparing Thailand with Cambodia, I might well be confused with the information that any search turned up. The Cambodian embassy site give simple instructions and actually encourages people to just go to the border and re-enter if you want to extend your stay. Other information basically tells you that you can extend your cambodian stay almost anywhere. Thai embassy/consulate websites have info on Visa exempt entries, tourist visas ,a,b,c,d,e,f,g, or whatever the visas are. Why do so many people think that a one year "o" visa allows them to stay for 1 year?

Unless you are aware of the system, the Thai immigration/visa requirements are confusing to say the least.

Yes, I'm quite capable of reading your post.

I asked if you know of exceptions, to make the point, that travel procedures are reasonably similar between countries. You and others seem to infer that the Thai regulations are too confusing. If that's true, then other country's regulations must be equally confusing. I give people credit for asking questions, because they are at least making an effort to understand the situation. But there are other places to get accurate, current information, besides possibly outdated websites. I recommend contacting their nearest consulate to start, and then do more research.

As for the the second part, yes, as a matter of fact, other countries do amend their regulations on a regular basis. It's just one doesn't see anybody complaining about it here. One situation I just ran across was a few years ago, when Indonesia did away with "visa exempt" entries and requires a visa to enter for many nationalities. Just one example of how Thailand isn't the only country that issues more strict requirements sometimes.

The bottom line is, if people want to come here, it isn't that difficult, and certainly no more so, than some of the surrounding countries. If they are confused, it's easy enough to get the necessary information.

[brahmburgers]

TAT Does not look down at Backpackers

TAT look at Backpackers as the future spender in thailand.

so they do cater for them.

Correct me if I have the wrong impression, but press releases from TAT all seem to focus on elite tourists, and mention swanky resorts and/or tout big investments in golf courses. How often have we heard of TAT mention adventure travel type activities such as rafting, rock climbing, para-sailing? I'd say pretty much never. Same goes for symposiums focusing on non-vanity products. For example, how often has Thailand sponsored an exposition/fair showcasing alternative energy, organic farming, innovative inventions, or world music? Answer: never. Instead, we have Thai big shots sponsoring expositions (all in Bangkok BTW) which focus on vanity and/or manufactured items like cars, electronic gizmos, cosmetics, and housewares.

TAT has its feet stuck firmly in the mud of old thinking. It needs to get some fresh new innovative thinkers.

The best holidays I've had in Thailand is when I hardly saw a foreigner at all. Unfortunately, tourists bring money, and money attracts greed; before you know it a once nice spot turns into a place crawling with scamming, price gouging, bad mannered individuals and facilities.

Sums up the demise of Phuket pretty well! Went there a few years ago with my Thai b/f, and it was the only place we've ever been where I could actually feel the hostility from some people. Give me the North any day, great people who treat us with the same good nature that we show to them.

I spent three nights in Phuket, and was relieved to get out of there. One of the stand-outs was a security cop who nonchalantly walked up to me from behind, while I was on my motorbike waiting for a traffic light to change, and he blew his whistle full blast right in my ear. Ouch. Tinnitus pain for 2 hours.

My favorite place in Samui is the rocky area north of the touristy beaches that are plastered on its east coast. At the time, 4 years ago, there were scant few people along that small coastal strip. Maybe it's still decent. My second favorite thing to do at Samui, was to get on the little boat on its north coast and get away over to Ko Pangan. at Pangan, there was a decent area on its NW tip where a person can wade out to snorkle. I saw a large monitor lizard raiding a trash heap on the tiny island there - pretty cool for a country that's decimated nearly every animal bigger than a crow.

[thailien8]

I saw a large monitor lizard raiding a trash heap on the tiny island there - pretty cool for a country that's decimated nearly every animal bigger than a crow.

The street dogs are thriving and multiplying.

[Trouble]

I think there have been some good points made here. However I believe that a most of the posters here are either expats living in Thailand or frequent visitors (probably the reason they keep up with things on ThaiVisa). Genuine tourism does not rise and fall in Thailand because of the visa regulations, cost of visas, scams, ripoffs, ATM fees, dual pricing, etc. Tourism is a result of people wanting to take a nice vacation to some destination where they can enjoy themselves for one to three weeks. Many Europeans want a nice place in the sun for their winter months. They enjoy going to the beach, enjoy nice meals, and stay in hotels which cater to their needs. Most do not stay in cheaper hotels or skimp on things. That is not to say that they don't calculate the cost of their vacation in Thailand against costs to visit other locations. Someone mentioned Egypt. There are numerous resorts along the red sea with scuba diving, boating trips, luxury hotels with all the amenities. Why wouldn't someone consider this alternative because of the shorter flight and possibly at less cost. Real tourism in Thailand is not based on the cheap charlie tourist, sex tourist, or back packers as none of these really spend all that much money. I think the protests, flu crisis, and most importantly the down turn in the global economy do have real effects on the tourism industry. Certainly people have less discretionary income and they are going to look for the best bargin for the type of vacation they want. Vietnam and Cambodia will certainly see increases in tourism as they have been building the infastructure to draw tourists. This undoubtedly will cause a drop in the number of visitors going to Thailand. I think in discussing the fall in tourism it is necessary to put oneself in the position of a working guy in a Western country wanting to spend a nice vacation away from home with family and friends. That means seeing the sights, enjoying the food, night markets, resorts, beaches at a reasonable and affordable price. Closure of airports, swine flu, protests certainly do not help one make a decision to visit Thailand when other alternatives are available.

Further a lot of discussion is seen here from expats about ATM, fees, visa rules, scams, rip offs, etc. While I have not lived in Thailand, I have visited there regularly over the last 30 years. I have paid more to enter certain historical sights and been ripped off by taxi drivers. I am a foreigner and don't speak the language. Fortunately I have learned from those experiences. Isn't that part of travel anywhere. I just returned from Rio de Janiero and I can't tell you how many times taxi drives tried to rip me off. That's life and we learn from those things. It was never enough that I thought it worth arguing about. I think there is a tendency for expats to assume that they contribute to the overall Thai economy more than they do. Sure those that work and pay taxes probably do contribute. But many of the retirees that I know personally enjoy living in Thailand because they are on fixed income and it is relatively inexpensive and has a rather large expat community in some cities providing social networks. Nothing wrong with that but putting things into perspective they do NOT contribute THAT much to the overall Thai economy.

I really think it is necessary to separate the complaints of the expats and those of the general tourist population when discussing the drop in tourism in Thailand and throughout the world for that matter.

You made a very sensible contribution, but I would like to point out that yor remarks about the contribution of expats to the Thai economy are IMHO underestimated. Presume that the average spending of an retiree is about 1 million Baht per year that makes 1 Billion per 1000 retirees. so making Thailand an atractive country to retire could be a major source of income for the economy.

Point Taken. I probably have a false sense of the expat community to some degree based on my experience in places like Pattaya, and Bangkok. Seems that most I have met are living a comfortable but modest lifestyle enjoying the benefits of income earned in a western country. That being said I suppose there are many expats living in Thailand that have income which provides substantially more spending power than what I have seen so where that average falls is anyones guess. I guess an additional basis for my thoughts come from this forum based on complaints about what I consider to be such petty things like ATM fees or the cost of drinks going up(I know a bad assumption). Based on your assumption of 1 million baht per year we are talking about roughly $28,000,000 per year per 1000 expats flowing into the economy. Actually you have raised an interesting point and it would be probably worthy of more study. A really good study of the expat contribution to the economy might be of value in presenting to the Thai government in an argument for more sanity and predicability in their visa regulations for long term residents. There is no argument from me that Thailand seems to change its rules on a whim and that is upsetting for people who do want to live there and who do contribute to the economy. It would be interesting to know the number of expats in Thailand, the number of months they spend in Thailand per year, and what their annual income and/or spending in Thailand amounts to in the overall Thai ecomony. More simply what does the expat community actually contribute to the Thai ecomony. Certainly the Thai government has statistics on the tourist market. How does the expat community compare in the big scheme of things? Another interesting study would be how much do foreigners contribute to the economy in the form of payments sent to girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, etc. that they do not live with full time. I would hope that the Thai government tracks this kind of money transfer. By way of a side note, I heard an interesting statistic recently that the United States has 500,000 immigrants from Nicaragua living in the US with half of those living in southern California. Some legislators from Nicaragua are here promoting changes changes in our immigration laws. There motive is that the payments immigrants make to Nicaragua amount to $800,000,000 to $900,000,000 per year. These legistators openly admit they need that money for their economy(that ain't chump change). Just an interesting statistic but worthy to note as no doubt the amount of payments to Thailand is also significant. Of course to me that is $800,000,000 that is NOT being put into the US ecomony by these immigrants. Mexican immigrants do the same but in even greater amounts. I guess my point is that the Thai government needs to study all these things and see what the actual contribution in payments, tourism, expats, etc. really amounts to so they can formulate policy based on fact not Thai xenophobia. So thanks you raised a good point and it's too bad that somehow Thaivisa can't do a survey of sorts to gather information. Surveys are difficult as they have to be well thought out and let's fact it, they can be a major undertaking.

I think the point here was tourism and I think many good points have been made but I still feel that most of the complaints expats have made are not all that valid to the "average" tourist. There is no doubt in my mind that for people who have traveled to Thailand on vacation that probably they enjoyed it. Does it mean they will come back or will they choose a new destination like Vietnam or Cambodia. Certainly many people want to experience new destinations. Delta/NWA has started service to Vietnam with only a stop in Tokyo so no need to go thru BKK anymore. It is a myriad of things that are changing the dynamics. Thailand will find increasing competition as a tourist destination. I hope for the sake of the average Thai worker involved in the tourist market that Thailand will regain its place as a decent destination. The real problem with Thailand is it's inability to build industry that will give jobs to its college graduates which in turn builds a solid middle class economy. They need foreign investment and know how. They started it but it stagnated when China blossomed as a new source of labor. Somehow they have to produce jobs so that the country is not as dependent on tourism.

Of course this kind of development makes Thailand probably less desirable for many expats as it raises the cost of living. I have been most fortunate to be acquainted with a good number of Thai students attending university here in Los Angeles. They are extremely bright and energetic but they also know that the job opportunities are lacking in Thailand. They have a taste of solid middle class American life and like it. They know what faces them on return. They discuss the problems and politics of Thailand and have their opinions of the Red and Yellow shirts. They don't like to talk about their dirty laundry to outsiders much but they have their opinions. It saddens me that they don't necessarily have that bright future because politics in Thailand is more about self than service. It is a shame really as while I detest Thai politics for what it is and I detest the BIB for the corruption, the Thai people in general are pretty decent people trying to survive and raise families much like everywhere else.

I got a little off topic but what new about that in these forums, Sorry.

[hardy1943]

Tourism is down everywhere. Maybe not by 83% like Thailand but every tourist destination is feeling the global recession/depression. It's also true that people get tired of the 'give us your money and get the hel_l out mentality'. Another drawback is their residence policies. I'm married to a Thai person who wants to retire in Thailand. Speaking as a foreignor that would be a daunting task. Who wants to be subject to the whims of a third world government constantly in flux. When i'm old I want to relax not run around filing paperwork to stay in the country.

Thai government is responsible for much of the fall off in tourism. But Thai businesses can share some blame. Farangs are aware of the increased pricing for goods and services and are showing disapproval by simply staying home. Price gouging may fly in good times but when times are bad it's not a good idea. I do understand the Thai attitude toward property ownership. They don't need westerners, or any group, coming in and buying up land. That would be a big negative for Thai citizens. For me I don't care. Let my wife have majority interest in my Thai residence, just let me retire in peace until I'm dead. Is that so much to ask?

I agree, but I kind of feel like being an ex con on parole or a child molester having report every 90 days to your parole officer