Thailand Seeks Review Of Preah Vihear World Heritage Status

[george]

Thailand seeks review of Preah Vihear World Heritage Status

BANGKOK: -- Thailand will oppose the World Heritage Committee on listing Preah Vihear temple on the Thai-Cambodian border as a World Heritage site, Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said on Wednesday.

Mr. Abhisit said Tuesday’s Cabinet meeting action assigned Minister of Natural Resources and Environment Suwit Khunkitti to lodge the objection at a World Heritage Committee meeting to be held in Spain against the United Nations for Education Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) which had granted the ancient temple World Heritage Site status.

Mr. Suwit, who will attend the meeting in his capacity as a member of the World Heritage Committee and not as representative of the Thai government, will air complaints that the listing of the temple might go against the charters of UNESCO and the World Heritage Committee, the prime minister said.

After the listing more armed clashes occurred between the two countries in the disputed area, Mr. Abhisit continued.

He said UNESCO will be asked to review its decision as the disputed area is a valuable cultural entity itself and could be conserved to allow the peoples of both countries, as well as tourists, to visit the temple, which has become a conflict zone.

Mr. Abhisit said the “planned opposition isn’t too late as it will be on the agenda of the (upcoming) meeting.”

UNESCO granted Cambodia's application for Preah Vihear temple to be designated a World Heritage Site in July 2008.

The listing was made at the time of the government of former Thai prime minister Samak Sundaravej.

The International Court of Justice ruled in 1962 that the Preah Vihear temple belongs to Cambodia, but the most accessible entrance begins at the foot of a mountain in Thailand, and both sides claim some of the surrounding territory.

"I personally want to see peace in the area and peoples of both countries receive benefit from the historical heritage site," Mr. Abhisit said.

Panithan Wattanayakorn, deputy secretary-general to the prime minister, said the listing of the temple as the World Heritage site has affected the otherwise warm relations between the two countries.

Dr. Panithan reiterated that the planned Thai government objection is not directed at the Cambodia government but rather at the international agencies which had created problems.

-- TNA 2009-06-17

[geovalin]

Crude provocation, ridiculous arguments. OK. But why?

[DaleBlue]

Thailand seeks review of Preah Vihear World Heritage Status

BANGKOK: -- Thailand will oppose the World Heritage Committee on listing Preah Vihear temple on the Thai-Cambodian border as a World Heritage site, Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said on Wednesday.

....

-- TNA 2009-06-17

Mr. Mark seems to forget that the entire Preah Vihear temple is in Cambodia, and not Thailand. The outer compound is another question; not related.

[sambechtold]

Bottom line: this temple was a non-issue til the temple was listed. Now the listing has turned the entire area into a combat zone where no one can enter. Solution: go back to the status quo

[robbiecia]

Looks like the spoilt child wants it all their own way.

Come see our temple

Just be careful of the mines and other unexploded ordinance

[webfact]

Good maneuver!

This will shift the attention to that temple again -

no more focus on swine flu and other serious issues. Mai pen rai...

In times of crisis lets play the national card!

Well done!

[mrsouza]

The real issue here might become more clear if you read this article.

"However Tara said Cambodia's oil boom was only just beginning and the government was already looking at exploring significant potential onshore reserves in a range of provinces including central provinces of Kampong Chhnang and Pursat, as well as Kampong Thom and the Thai border provinces of Battambang and Preah Vihear."

[Plus]

Mr. Mark seems to forget that the entire Preah Vihear temple is in Cambodia, and not Thailand. The outer compound is another question; not related.

How come it's not related?

This is exactly the point that goes against UNESCO's own rules for listings - they should never have separated the temple and the adjacent area.

And the site was going to be listed in its entirety until Cambodians decided to play hardball sometime in 2006, and it was impasse until Noppadon decided to satisfy their demands and split the site into temple and "not temple", against all common sense (and unesco rules).

[geovalin]

The real issue here might become more clear if you read this article.

"However Tara said Cambodia's oil boom was only just beginning and the government was already looking at exploring significant potential onshore reserves in a range of provinces including central provinces of Kampong Chhnang and Pursat, as well as Kampong Thom and the Thai border provinces of Battambang and Preah Vihear."

I don't believe about derricks on the temple. But you are right to remind the oil issue.

The off-shore issue.

The struggle (in the beginning around a table) will be terrific.

Both countries claim the same part of sea where oil could be.

Intimidation in Preah Vihar in anticipation of the sea conflict?

[Tod Daniels]

The adjacent area was, and has nearly ALWAYS been in dispute. IF the land is in dispute UNESCO will not give recognition to the site. That is why ONLY the temple complex was granted the status. Last time I checked the temple site itself has ALWAYS been in Cambodia. (Unless you count the time thailand ran in and "acquired" a bunch of land from neighboring countries, which BTW they promptly gave back after world scrutiny).

I especially like how the thais spun this; "the planned Thai government objection is not directed at the Cambodia government but rather at the international agencies which had created problems". Of course it's NOT thailand who has been sitting on their hands for um-teen years rather than hashing out the border with Cambodia; it's the 'international agencies" who have made the problem.

Having been there before this brouhaha developed; I can say without question, neither country will profit by grandstanding this meaningless issue. It is a VERY small amount of totally worthless land, which can neither be farmed, nor exploited profitably, EXCEPT to allow foreign tourist access to the temple complex itself. It is far easier to get to the temple complex from thailand rather than Cambodia. Neither country can see it would actually be a win/win situation for both parties; so they continue arguing about it.

An oh-so typical thai attitude, as well as a totally thai-spin on things.

[Plus]

The adjacent area was, and has nearly ALWAYS been in dispute. IF the land is in dispute UNESCO will not give recognition to the site. That is why ONLY the temple complex was granted the status.

And that is exactly why Unesco is at fault here - for breaking its own rules. Initially the whole site was going to be listed, and the process got the go ahead and cooperation from Thai government. Things turned bad when Cambodians decided to exclude adjacent areas, some are clearly in Thailand, as historically irrelevant.

They claimed that the temple was built by and for people living under the cliff and that people living on currently Thai side, with the easiest access and a grand staircase were latecomers and their heritage should not be preserved as part of the Unesco site.

Why Unesco decided to go along with this plan is anyone's guess, and Thailand has a legitimate case here.

The listing problem has nothing to do with unsettled borders - they've been there for decades, it's the suddent decision to exclude former Khmers who happened to live in present day Thailand from contributing to temple heritage.

[fino]

I have lived 7 years in Thailand and then moved one year ago to Cambodia. Does obamark think that international court will rule in favor of thailand ? Never

Thai army as much more weapons than their Kmer counterpart but in case of conflict the vietnamese will rescue their "kmer bothers" and give a spanking to those arogant thais. They know it and won't never do it. I understand that during a crisis every thai polititians will play the nationalist Card but why put it back on the international scene ? They don't realize that now they are ridiculous and that they are back in the "banana league". In a country where the issue "of face" is so important why do they want to lose it one more time.

Definitly i have loved Thailand but now I don't even want to come back in lalaland , only enjoy their fall from Phnom Penh

[samgrowth]

From the discussion I read above, the temple is in Cambodia. Case close.

[Plus]

From the discussion I read above, the temple is in Cambodia. Case close.

Maybe it's time to open the brains and unleash all that dormant power.

According to Unesco rules a whole site should have been listed, not the temple only.

And the listing undeniably caused several armed confrontations and fatalities.

Time for Unesco to own it up, too.

[jayboy]

From the discussion I read above, the temple is in Cambodia. Case close.

Maybe it's time to open the brains and unleash all that dormant power.

According to Unesco rules a whole site should have been listed, not the temple only.

And the listing undeniably caused several armed confrontations and fatalities.

Time for Unesco to own it up, too.

Your logic is flawed.The listing caused nothing of the sort.The problem was and is mindless nationalism (in Thailand's case stirred up by opportunistic politicians) of two neighbouring countries who should be co-operating not fighting over an important piece of joint cultural interest.Tod-daniels has it absolutely right and your contributions on this subject taken as a whole seem slightly deranged i'm afraid.Your attack on UNESCO is just weird.

We know that Cambodia under Hun Sen is an immature government and hair trigger in its reactions.Thailand should be setting an example in this matter.Sumet Jumsai has pointed out the facts and to be fair Abhisit and Kasit are doing their best to sort the matter out sensibly.

[Plus]

The problem was and is mindless nationalism (in Thailand's case stirred up by opportunistic politicians) of two neighbouring countries who should be co-operating not fighting over an important piece of joint cultural interest.

For an umpteenth time - the problem with the listing appeared a full year before PAD brought the issue to the public eye and it had nothing to do with nationalism or border demarcation.

The co-operation ended when Cambodia declared that heritage on Thai side of the border is not worth preserving. That's a fact, and then there are their ridiculous claims that the temple originally belonged to people living under the cliff.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who agrees with their opinion, btw, and Thailand has all the rights to raise a stink at the Unesco over this mistreatement of history, too.

[Lite Beer]

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[sriracha john]

The real issue here might become more clear if you read this article.

"However Tara said Cambodia's oil boom was only just beginning and the government was already looking at exploring significant potential onshore reserves in a range of provinces including central provinces of Kampong Chhnang and Pursat, as well as Kampong Thom and the Thai border provinces of Battambang and Preah Vihear."

Amplified here...

drawing the border lines at sea is much more critical than these land ones... but the land ones are where the precedents are set...

Samran mentioned this earlier, but the linked article and below map made things a lot clearer and certainly adds a whole new jumble to the on-going mess... 27,000 square kilometers of "jumble"....

The scrap of land on which our future lies

The implications of the Thai-Cambodian border dispute reach far beyond the 4.6 sq km of scrub around Preah Vihear

The disputed area adjacent to Preah Vihear covers only 4.6 square kilometres - a very small area when compared to the total size of the countries of Thailand and Cambodia. But neither of the countries can afford to lose any of this land. This is not only because the area carries with it the issue of territorial sovereignty, which no modern state can bear to lose, but also because the final fate of the area could signify the future of other overlapping areas still to be demarcated, particularly those in the sea, military analysts say. While a lot of people are concerned about the possible loss of territorial sovereignty over the disputed land to Cambodia, Vice-Admiral Pratheep Chuen-arom (retired) has been pondering what will happen to the disputed areas in the Gulf of Thailand, which cover about 20,000 square kilometres. For months, the vice-admiral has reviewed the information to hand and applied the lessons he learned when commander of a patrol fleet in the Gulf. He has decided to make public his concerns. "If we lose the claimed land again, there is very much more at stake to be lost." Over a hundred years ago, Thailand was forced to demarcate its borders with two imperial powers, Britain and France, which had colonised Indo-China, including Cambodia. Some maps helping define the borders between Thailand and states under protection of those imperial countries were drawn up. However, these were not officially accepted by Bangkok, especially those covering the border between Thailand and Cambodia.While Cambodia continues to use the French maps, Thailand has its own versions and has used them as its border references. And because they use different maps, the two countries claim different borderlines. So, if the French-drawn maps were accepted, much of the area containing oil and gas deposits would go to Cambodia, Vice-Admiral Pratheep said. Last year, Cambodia's Deputy Prime Minister Sok An, who is chairman of the Cambodian National Petroleum Authority (CNPA), declared a "breakthrough" regarding the petroleum exploration by Chevron Overseas Petroleum (Cambodia) Ltd, which obtained permission from Cambodia to explore petroleum resources in 2002. He said, "The overlapping area covers around 27,000 sq km that is thought to be highly prospective for petroleum accumulations."

- Bangkok Post / 29 July 2008

==================================================================

Cambodia's line was, to put it mildly, outrageously drawn by the French...

Chevron has been drilling and has found oil.... there's millions of dollars at stake here and it starts with the "scrubland" around the temple.

[jayboy]

The problem was and is mindless nationalism (in Thailand's case stirred up by opportunistic politicians) of two neighbouring countries who should be co-operating not fighting over an important piece of joint cultural interest.

For an umpteenth time - the problem with the listing appeared a full year before PAD brought the issue to the public eye and it had nothing to do with nationalism or border demarcation.

The co-operation ended when Cambodia declared that heritage on Thai side of the border is not worth preserving. That's a fact, and then there are their ridiculous claims that the temple originally belonged to people living under the cliff.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who agrees with their opinion, btw, and Thailand has all the rights to raise a stink at the Unesco over this mistreatement of history, too.

It's probably useless to elaborate but quasi fascist movements often seize on marginal issues but with nationalist connotations which can be exploited for political purposes.Only the most blinkered zealots would deny PAD did this over Preah Vihar, but fortunately we have moved on since then.It's irrelevant frankly that the problem with the listing appeared before the PAD "pointed it out".I'm not incidentally denying the Cambodian arguments on this issue are more than a little crazed.Does Thailand want to be compared to those wanke_rs?

One is reminded of Borges comment on the Falk;lands conflict about two bald menm fighting over a comb.

The obvious solution is a joint listing and this is the policy Abhisit is pursuing.Obviously he needs to be careful in what he says because there are a bunch of crazies out there who unfortunately form part of his constituency.

[DaleBlue]

The obvious solution is a joint listing and this is the policy Abhisit is pursuing.Obviously he needs to be careful in what he says because there are a bunch of crazies out there who unfortunately form part of his constituency.

Sorry you are wrong. This was what proxy-Thaksin government did (through the half-witt Nopadon). PAD & Mark was heavily against it.

[Plus]

Thailand has objected to Cambodian listing and planned to derail it, until Noppadon came alone.

The problem is not with what PAD or Abhisit said a few months later, but some people just can't stop themselves from talking about PAD and fascism.

[jayboy]

The obvious solution is a joint listing and this is the policy Abhisit is pursuing.Obviously he needs to be careful in what he says because there are a bunch of crazies out there who unfortunately form part of his constituency.

Sorry you are wrong. This was what proxy-Thaksin government did (through the half-witt Nopadon). PAD & Mark was heavily against it.

Not according to this morning's Bangkok Post

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1864...eah-vihear-push

Money quote:

"I would like to see peace in the area and people from both sides benefit from a joint listing of this site," Mr Abhisit said.

Thailand remains firm that joint listing of the temple is the best solution."

[jayboy]

...some people just can't stop themselves from talking about PAD and fascism.

Perhaps the use of classic fascist tactics by PAD over Preah Vihar has something to do with that.

[Plus]

Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the disagreement Thailand has with Cambodia over the temple issue.

[Plus]

Thailand remains firm that joint listing of the temple is the best solution.

If only Cambodians would agree....

I think they play their own game, and couldn't care less about preserving the actual heritage - like when they fired rocket propelleg grenades into the temple compound last year.

[geovalin]

Thailand has all the rights to raise a stink at the Unesco over this mistreatement of history, too.

What a dangerous, wrong and insane stance!

It means that Germany could claim French Alsace, we, French, could claim US Louisiana, England could have kept Hong Kong, Cambodia should claim the Kampuchea Krom from Vietnam which could claim some territories Chinese took. And the Korea? And Georgia? Laos could claim Issan as well. It's a never ending story.

History is UNFAIR, please understand that.

It's unfair and there is a moment when reasonable people (first of all is they are in charge) should stop to dream about a BIG Siam and make useless fuss.

Thailand has already a terrible civil war in the South, I wonder why they want to create artificially another one with a neighbor country.

My guess is that Abhisit who was not born in 1962 (or he was a baby) and who is not a bad man does not mind about this temple but he is still the hostage of the fascists (some army top officers, etc.)

[DaleBlue]

Thailand has all the rights to raise a stink at the Unesco over this mistreatement of history, too.

What a dangerous, wrong and insane stance!

It means that Germany could claim French Alsace, we, French, could claim US Louisiana, England could have kept Hong Kong, Cambodia should claim the Kampuchea Krom from Vietnam which could claim some territories Chinese took. And the Korea? And Georgia? Laos could claim Issan as well. It's a never ending story.

History is UNFAIR, please understand that.

It's unfair and there is a moment when reasonable people (first of all is they are in charge) should stop to dream about a BIG Siam and make useless fuss.

Thailand has already a terrible civil war in the South, I wonder why they want to create artificially another one with a neighbor country.

My guess is that Abhisit who was not born in 1962 (or he was a baby) and who is not a bad man does not mind about this temple but he is still the hostage of the fascists (some army top officers, etc.)

Siam Once extend all the way from China to Singapore; from India to South China Sea (now Vietnam).

[Oberkommando]

What galls me is the arrogance of the Thai against a much poorer and far more needy neighbour. The temple is Hindu and was built by the Khmer, so it de facto belongs to them regardless of changes in ownership throughout the years. Additionally, the border has been demarcated and the temple currently sits on Cambodian soil.

You'd think this would be enough but the Thai have to object out of a misplaced and arrogant nationalism they are all too well known for, and being the big power in the region they think they can bully their neighbours into submission.

They've stolen most of Khmer culture and attributed it as their own; martial arts, dancing, costume and many other things, do the gracious and right thing and allow the Cambodians to have this temple as a UN World Heritage Site and stop being so petty and arrogant.

Please.

[geovalin]

What galls me is the arrogance of the Thai against a much poorer and far more needy neighbour. The temple is Hindu and was built by the Khmer, so it de facto belongs to them regardless of changes in ownership throughout the years. Additionally, the border has been demarcated and the temple currently sits on Cambodian soil.

You'd think this would be enough but the Thai have to object out of a misplaced and arrogant nationalism they are all too well known for, and being the big power in the region they think they can bully their neighbours into submission.

They've stolen most of Khmer culture and attributed it as their own; martial arts, dancing, costume and many other things, do the gracious and right thing and allow the Cambodians to have this temple as a UN World Heritage Site and stop being so petty and arrogant.

Please.

Well said OberK!

Thais are just bully but even don't consider them as bully. They think they deserve the big part of the cake just because they are Thais and the other are not, unfortunately to them. It's natural.

Consider Cambodia as a country with the same value than Thailand (and Khmer people with the same value than Thai) is something Thais people can even not imagine.

And now, the Dvaravati exhibition is coming from Musee Guimet, Paris to Bangkok.

A friend of mine visited it in Paris and was staggered to read that Dvaravati is noted to be Thai - Siamese art when it's obviously Mon. French historians wrote this drivel probably to please the important Thai visitors and to make Thai gvt allow the exhibition to come to Bangkok.

[Plus]

Thailand has all the rights to raise a stink at the Unesco over this mistreatement of history, too.

What a dangerous, wrong and insane stance!

It means that Germany could claim French Alsace, we, French, could claim US Louisiana, England could have kept Hong Kong, Cambodia should claim the Kampuchea Krom from Vietnam which could claim some territories Chinese took. And the Korea? And Georgia? Laos could claim Issan as well. It's a never ending story.

No one claims ownership over anything in this dispute. Can you understand that?

The problem is that Cambodians invented a rather silly explanation that excludes people who lived on the plain leading to the site from temple history, and I have no doubts that their main motivation was to draw a line of heritage according to current borders - what's on our side is historically important and needs preservation, what's on the other side can rot in hel_l.

And on these grounds Thailand has all the rights to protest against Unesco going along and agreeing that the site should be split.