Dreaded pronoun blues

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I am glad you avoid chan ( or dichan before it gets slang shortened ) because that is the females I. Stick with Phom unless you are trying to attract a same gender friend.

[Richard Hall]

I am glad you avoid chan ( or dichan before it gets slang shortened ) because that is the females I. Stick with Phom unless you are trying to attract a same gender friend.

Dear Dr. Pat Pong,

Not necessarily. Actually, when starting to learn the language I (wrongly) assumed that chan is reserved for females. Di-chan (the top of politeness for a female to refer to herself) is actually for the beautiful gender only but chan is not.

I became aware of this a few years ago for the first time when a male Thai English teacher talked to his class of Thai students and so I asked my wife to give me the background.

"Chan" is also the casual way for males to refer to themselves particularly if they talk to friends or individuals clearly lower in status (which is the case in a teacher/student relationship). The use is actually very common and if you read the Thai subtitles of movies chan is more often used than pom even in the language by the real roughy toughy males such as Arnold Schwarzenegger. Guess Arnold and co. would shout "foul" very loudly (and his fans as well) if "pink colored" Thai language is put in their mouthes.

 

Languages are living and actually up to now I never found an indication in any Thai text book that chan can be used by the strong gender although in the meantime in daily live it is absolutely common practise. But nevertheless as recommended by you stick to phom because we are a surely a heck of darn good gentlemen and hence certainly employ appropriate language only.    ::

[chonabot]

Another pleasant habit my wife has ( and she has many!)

in the nong/phi vein , when she is addressing an older or perhaps person in authority she will refer to herself as Noo ( little mouse) but only if they are not familiar.

The pronoun Bok is also used as a prefix when referring to someone familiar ,i.e. Bok Philip! ( me ).a tad aggressive but in a nice way....I hope!

As for the chap saying earlier that you must never use "Goo/Mung" unless being aggressive , suggesting only older or poorly educated people use this.....GENERALISATION!

Admitted it must be used to those close to you , not strangers.. My wifes elder sister is a doctor , I've heard her on the phone many times...it's Goo/Mung city!

Lets start a new thread using the Jai Noun....wheres my heart Talk  book....?

[danbo]

I guess it's because the Thai language is tonal that they don't use inflexion as much as we do in English.  They therefore use a number of words and particles to demonstrate feeling and meaning.  Unless, you are an expert it is probably best to stick to basic usage outside the house, lest you should cause offense or misunderstanding.

[Richard Hall]

As for the chap saying earlier that you must never use "Goo/Mung" unless being aggressive , suggesting only older or poorly educated people use this.....GENERALISATION!

Admitted it must be used to those close to you , not strangers.. My wifes elder sister is a doctor , I've heard her on the phone many times...it's Goo/Mung city!

Hi Chonabot,

Ocassionally, also my wife refers to daughter as "mueng" particularly in those cases she misbehaved and well, even educated people sometimes use foul language in those situation when they are "jai rohn" (hey here is the new thread you suggested) or have a playful relaxed chat whith someone they are very close to. Actually my daughter really hates it when her mother calls her "mueng".  

I stick to the advice to avoid "goo/mueng" particularly if you are not Thai. These expressions can actually be degrading and indicate that you do not appreciate your counterpart. Wanna give it a try? Approach a Thai with "kho toht mueng chuai goo dai mai na khrab" and watch the expression on his face (and also keep an eye on his hands!).

Sometime when I just want to pull my wife's sock I use those expressions in our home and each time she turns pale, grasps for breath and wants to slap my face.

Chonabot do you possibly live in Isarn? Sometimes the language there is more straightful and playful than for example in central Thailand. In any case if you really want to use these words make sure to do this is a playful manner and it is also actually understood as such to avoid things may turn sour.

[chonabot]

Agreed Richard , I spend a lot of time in Isaan, the dialect is  comparable to perhaps the North-east of England ( Geordies )

I did once address a taxi driver as Mung ( a long time ago )

intentionally as he had overcharged me big time.

There was a problem but as he was in the wrong initially , I stood my ground and he backed down. With the current climate in Bkk I probably would be more careful when berating a chap in the same situation.

 :cool:

[mrentoul]

Admitted it must be used to those close to you , not strangers.. My wifes elder sister is a doctor , I've heard her on the phone many times...it's Goo/Mung city!

Quite right. Languages are living things. I am sure there are many, many times where you have heard these words or maybe even used them yourself (though I never have). It's with people you know well, and as I said earlier, these words were in common currency once as early forms of personal pronouns, long before pom and khun came long.

[mrentoul]

edited

[wolf5370]

 

Sorry, couldn't resist showing off!

Hey, I wasn't translating, just explaining. To be honest, I haven't read it through myself yet. Thank you for the translation.

Since you are Thai, why don't you contribute?

Sorry, as I said, just felt like showing off. I'm not Thai, just a struggling 'learner' (Brit) - that's why I did the translation (the "I am Thai" bit was part of the translation).

PS: Thanks for the PM.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well I, as a farang and Chula' graduate disagree still Richard. In the Royal Court language it is true that Chan is indeed used by males. I'll make more enquiries and get back

[the scouser]

Dr P.P.

It could just be poetic licence, but the all male pop group, Loso, use "chan" in their song "Chan rak teu".

Scouse.

[mrentoul]

Sorry, as I said, just felt like showing off. I'm not Thai, just a struggling 'learner' (Brit) - that's why I did the translation (the "I am Thai" bit was part of the translation).

I was bleary-eyed when I read your post this morning. Thank-you for clearing that up.

[MaiChai]

Chan rak ter must be the most common phrase in Thai songs. I was going to have a go at mrentouls' translation, but wolfee beat me to it.

I use chan sometimes, particularly when talking to my old daughter or wife to make the conversation more personal. kOOn sounds too impersonal/offish. As a poster said earlier, for my younger kids I would use por or mair (refering to me or my wife). Happy families!

[D80]

How interesting reading through all your posts!

It's very impressive that some of you seem to know lots of Thai.

I agree that the pronoun problem can be a bit difficult to sort out sometimes.  But as a Thai woman, these are the general rules that I find withe the language (I am from BKK, so certain 'general rules' from me will probably be different from some parts of Thailand):

-'mung'/'goo' is impolite.  Only occasionally that I use this with very very close friends.  In my experience this is not used among family members (both older and younger) and is not usually used when talking to someone you don't know very well.  If my husband uses mung/goo when speaking to me, I would feel quite offended.

-'chan' can  be used by men as well as women.  'Dichan' used to be a pronoun used by men as well (probably around my grandma's time).  These days, men don't use 'dichan' anymore.  

-some men will use their names instead of 'pom, chan'.  It doesn't mean they are gay.  But it's true that it is more common among the ladies (on my experience anyway-little kids usually use this as well).  

-if in doubt use 'pom' (for men)

-the polite way of addressing a man or a woman is 'khun'.  If you are addressing a friend (usually of the same age), you may use 'ter' (addressing a woman) or 'nai' (addressing a man)

-if you are addressing a Thai of different ages and status, sometimes you will need to call them 'pii' (meaning older brother or sister), 'nong' (younger brother or sister), 'khun na/khun ar' (equivalent to younger sister/brother of your mum/dad), 'khun lung/khun pa' (older brother/sister of your mum & dad)... the list goes on, really....  if you don't know this bit, I don't think any Thais will be offended.

Ach, it's all too complicated!    

[mrentoul]

I was going to have a go at mrentouls' translation, but wolfee beat me to it.

Why not give it a stab. Why should thai-language.com and learning-thai.com get all the action?

Goo-meung is not necessarily impolite. Depends on who you are talking to. Languages are vibrant, living things. There are no absolutes (he says absolutely).

[TRIPxCORE]

What is the most romantic way to address your wife in Thai?

[mrentoul]

'khun na/khun ar' (equivalent to younger sister/brother of your mum/dad), 'khun lung/khun pa' (older brother/sister of your mum & dad).

On his latest karaoke concert CD, Bird stops to take flowers from people in the front row and a little boy asks ''loong Bird'' (''uncle'' Bird) when he is going to start singing (and stop talking).

A reporter at the Bangkok Post wrote a piece recently about old folks exercising, and referred to them throughout as ''Grandpa'' so-and-so, ''Grandma'' so-and-so.

They weren't her real relations, of course, and neither was the boy related to Bird...they are respectful forms of address whose choice will depend in part on the age of the person using them, and his relationship to the person being addressed. You wouldn't expect a little boy to say ''Khun Bird'', for example.

This doesn't work the same way in English. If you leave ''Grandpa'' and ''Grandma'' in a news story to refer to people you don't know it looks too sweet, like a children's story.

[curveblade]

Johng,

My wife called me Dak-Ling for a long time, I thought is was a mispronouced word for Darling. Then I found out what it meant. I accused her of calling me a monkeys ass. She just grinned and never denied it.

[Richard Hall]

What is the most romantic way to address your wife in Thai?

Suggest giving it a shot with "tee rug" (= darling) but meant for her eyes only instead of using that term constantly in public. But anyway guess this is needless to indicate since romantic situations are obviously intimidate moments among two and rarely occur in big crowds.

[wolf5370]

Had a chat with a monk friend of mine yesterday (he is my and my daughter's Thai teacher) about the pronoun thing. He said pretty much as D80 does (no suprise there then):

Men (polite) pom

Women (polite) DeeChane (historically men too, but not now)

Both (informal) Chan

To Kids - Ter (girl) Nai (boy) or Ter fot both is OK.

Mung should onkly realy be used for inanimate objects (i.e. It) now. I suppose that means Goo is obsolete in normal speak as an inanimate object can't speak  

Him/Her (polite) Khun

Her/she (informal/youngster) Ter

Him/He (informal/youngster) Nai

Us/we - Puak Rao

Them - Puak Kao

There are others for talking about or to high officials or royalty. There are also some for speaqking to slaves and servents that are pretty much obsolete (or just used for animals and objects now).

Addressing yourself in the third person is OK for anyone, but is used between firends etc as they will know to whom you are refering. I have heard both men and women do this.

Katoeys usualy say DeeChan.

Pronouns are often dropped anyway.

Khun chur arai Krup?

Chur Richard Krup (not Pom chur Richard krup) etc.

Some people feel that the use of 3rd person, or chan, shows an inferance of sexual preference. ie. is stating that they are gay. This is certainly not the case. I have been speaking to a few members in PM and a few other freinds that are not. I copy here part of an email that was part of my communique to one of the people I was discussing it with:

...Its all about familiarity, relative position and circumstance. The only thing that I can think of that would be saying something would be to call yourself DeeChun (like the Katoeys do), as this is only traditionaly used by ladies. I think most Thais are too accepting of sexual persuation to bother to 'invent' a pronoun or allow corruption of an existing one. Perhaps gay Thais also do not need the 'act of rebellion' that such a grammatical change would infer. In the west the word 'gay' was adopted (or pehaps enforced apon) homosexual men (and later women too) to such an extent, it is rarely ever used for its original meaning 'happy'. Homophobia is still alive and "well" in the west, so inferances are seemed important perhaps, both to the gay community and the anti-gay community - though for different reasons. In Thailand, perhaps it is simply not needed as it does not fit in with their ethos.

You'll notice I said 'perhaps' a lot, that is because this is all my thoughts, and not being part of either 'community', I do not really know...

Comments are welcome.

Cheers,

[MaiChai]

พวก puak (or even pwuk is you want to be more phonetically correct) means a group, for those that don't know.

Group he/her=they/them

group we=us

pwuk implying more than one, a group, particularly when you want to be clear that you are talking about a group.

pwuk can replace the classifier and be used with other objects:

baan lang nee  - this house

baan pwuk nee - these houses (group of)

Hey, I just thought if you replace the f in <deleted> with a p, and you get the proper pronounciation.

[mrentoul]

Mung should onkly realy be used for inanimate objects (i.e. It) now. I suppose that means Goo is obsolete in normal speak as an inanimate object can't speak

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. As anyone here who lives with a Thai knows, these words are in everyday use among people on familiar terms.

This is not a flame, by the way...but really, these words are in common, everyday use! I don't think my friends are in the habit of referring to themselves as inanimate objects.

[wolf5370]

Mung should onkly realy be used for inanimate objects (i.e. It) now. I suppose that means Goo is obsolete in normal speak as an inanimate object can't speak.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. As anyone here who lives with a Thai knows, these words are in everyday use among people on familiar terms.

Hi Michael, just relaying what the monk said. I know they are in use, but I suppose as they are somewhat insulting, the monk does not want to propogate their use. Mun (Meung, whatever) is still used as 'it', this is what he is was saying.

I suppose friends would still use it as we may call each by colourful pronouns too in the west.

[MaiChai]

mun (it มัน) and meung (มึง) are not the same; its spelt quite differently and the nor ngoo (ง) would be pronounced and the อึ charcter has a rounded EU sound to it, so mEUng would sound right. Sometimes people say 'it' as a profanication (my wife says it all the time; just 'mun' on its own). I don't hear มึง said much as it would be rude to say it to someone; I hear goo(กู) said alot; much more commonly used, primarily by kids trying to sound tough.

[wolf5370]

There you go MaiChai living up to your name again - no seriously, thanks for the clarification. Didn't think to write it down for my monk, must have been my less-than-brilliant pronounciation and the fact that I assumed มึง was มัน .

[DaveYo]

Well can I ask you all something.  How do I address to others in introducing who we are as follows..  Hello my name is Dave and this is my wife - do I say her nickname or her real name?) her nick is Yo and her Real name is a thai legal name.

I only know a few words of thai, and I notice my wife calls me darling most times.

Would appreciate knowing how to introduce in thai of myself and of my wife to others.

:blues:

[Edward B]

How do I address to others in introducing who we are as follows..  Hello my name is Dave and this is my wife - do I say her nickname or her real name?) her nick is Yo and her Real name is a thai legal name.

สวัสดีครับ ผมชื่อเดฟและนี้คุณ ..... นะครับ

Sawasdee krap. Pom cheu Dave Leh nee kun ..... na krap.

I would say her real name first and then perhaps you may suggest that they all call her Yo (or better that she suggest it).

[Edward B]

Thank you all for replying. I must say I was surprised to see such a big response. Although it got off topic a bit I think this thread is a good reference for anyone wishing to learn this aspect of the Thai language.

For me I guess I was hoping to find out how other expats like me address themselves when talking to the wife (and vice versa). I used my name a few times but I never felt comfortable. I felt like I was Yoda or Gollom from LOTR. Also, now I'd feel even less comfortable after reading some of the posts here. Sorry guys but the gay connotation is in my brain now and will never be forgotton!

Thanks again...Happy families!

[mrentoul]

My Thai friends agree the words are not for everyday use in public, but don't shy away from using them among themselves. I have heard a couple of great arguments when both words were flying around like cutlery (the kind with sharpened ends).

[MaiChai]

I would say :

cheu pom keu dave, lair nee bpen meea kong pom

ชื่อผมคือเดฟ์และนีเป็นเมียของผม

My name is dave and this is my wife.

I don't think you need na krap as its wordy and polite enough already.

Keu is a good replacement for 'is' when you are making an equality; bpen should be used for more descriptive things.

Thais quite often use 'with' (gap), where we would often use 'and' (lair), particularly where two things go together. So if someone else was saying it, they might simply say:

nee bpen dave gap meea na krap.

นีเป็นเดฟ์กับเมียนะครับ

nee is such a useful word

You can say things in different ways, so its up to you!