Work Permit And Tax Problems

[rufanuf]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone on this forum has experienced the problems we encounter almost every month with one issue or another over work permits, tax and their intertwined nature. It seems like its a fullt time job just dealing with this crap.

We started our business over a year ago and used a so called "reputable" firm to form our company and obtain our first work permits, which where temporary at the time (3 months, and have to visa run and renew work permit every 3 months).

Now when we started our firm we was assured by our reputable lawyer that the total overhead for retaining and maintaining our work permits would be in the region of 6000BHT per month per farang in the firm.

Since that time the costs have risen to something closer to 10,000 a month each, and there just never seems to be an end to taxes, govermment fees, accountants fees and lawyers fees.

What so frustrating about it all is how much we emphasised that tax overheads etc had to be as low as possible in our first few years of trading as we was a start up business. We may not have started it at all had we known the degree of hassle and expense involved that we are now aware of and all the costs associated with forming a company. We feel pretty duped by our reputable lawyer.

I just wondered what anyone else made of this breakdown in our base costs, and any how we can do away with so many fees/costs/tax.

2500BHT Monthly Accounting Fee

10,000BHT six monthly accounts

38,000BHT a year per farang lawyers fee for immigration and work permit maintenance

1500BHT a month witholding tax per farang to risw to 2500 shortly

1000BHT endless additional lawyers and government fees totalling typically 1000BHT a month (renewel of company affidavits, changing partners lists etc etc to retain and maintian work permits.

5200BHT social security (for Thais on our books) a month

To be honest I find most of it really hard to understand but the net effect of these charges is

approaching 220,000BHT a year, and as small business trying to get a foothold its pretty crippling.

I just wandered what others experiences where? The really frustrating thing about it all is that employing the services of lawyers and accountants just seems to make things more difficult and more expensive rather than easier! I think the lawyer who structured our company really screwed it up as well (we have subsequently been told that is why we are having so many problems, the structure of the business wont support two farangs in work permits).

To make matters worse our original lawyers never advised that under any circumstance we should let a work permit expire. Well I had to go to UK to renew my non Im B, and my permit expired whilst in the UK, so I wrongly believed it seems that the process would simply to be renew when I got back for another 3 month period....but instead I have had to start the process of applying for the work permit all over again, and now I am being told I will likely not get it! This is despite the fact I am MD of the business and that I have drawn a wage from the business and paid tax every single month even when in UK. Seems strange that they will take my tax but not give me a work permit.

Has anyone else been driven to distraction by these type of issues?

[thaiphoon]

So, you are on 12 month NON B visa issued in the UK and therefore have to do border run every 90 days. Same as me.

To put it bluntly you are being ripped off, and you should be looking for a new service provider. For my thai company I pay:

1) 3k per month for an ‘all in’ service covering the monthly accounting, completion of monthly tax returns, submission of returns to the revenue department and travelling time to government departments as necessary

2) 8k per annum for WP renewal

3) 15k per annum for annual audit

4) Standard government fees for company updates etc

Plus 7% VAT on (1-3) above

Yes you have to pay withholding tax each month on all salaries (staff and directors) and other bills paid (phone/electricity/water/rent etc)

Yes you have to pay social security tax at 5% on staff salaries (but not director salaries)

Yes, unfortunately you are going to have to go through the process of applying for a new WP. But why does your lawyer say it is unlikely you will get a new WP? This is key to understanding/resolving your problem.

Also, I do not understand why your WP has previously only been renewed in 3 month blocks. New regulations that came into effect early this year now means the Labour Department issue WP for 12 months, and expiry date of WP is no longer linked to ‘permission to stay’ date.

Please provide more information for people to help you.

Edited July 16, 2009 by thaiphoon

[Mario2008]

Agree, you are being ripped off.

[opalhort]

Yes, the OP is being ripped off!

More info is needed to give better advise. What is the amount of registered capital? The number of Thai employees?

This will determine the number of WPs available for one company.

If you have a perfectly legal business with all the requirements satisfied you won't even need a lawyer (we don't have one!)

What you will need is an Accounting service. In our case we pay 25K per year all inclusive (monthly/annual/audit)

Why do you need a lawyer to file monthly tax and social security forms? Anybody who can read Thai can do that.

Visa: my suggestion is DIY, it's easy if you have your papers in order

WP: same as visa but we do have a person who helps with the paperwork and does all the legwork. Cost per year: 3K plus official fees (have receipts).

My suggestion would be:

Go to a local university which has a law faculty and recruit a senior English speaking student on a part-time basis (weekend, holidays etc.) A lot cheaper and probably more efficient than a law office.

opalhort

[thaiphoon]

More info is needed to give better advise. The number of Thai employees?

This will determine the number of WPs available for one company.

Agreed this information is useful, but as the OP has Non B visa issued outside the Kingdom, the Labour Department will not check as to how many thais are actually employed when issuing WP. Therefore the ratio of 4:1 thai/farang does not apply. This is the case for my business.

Edited July 16, 2009 by thaiphoon

[rufanuf]

Yes, the OP is being ripped off!

More info is needed to give better advise. What is the amount of registered capital? The number of Thai employees?

This will determine the number of WPs available for one company.

If you have a perfectly legal business with all the requirements satisfied you won't even need a lawyer (we don't have one!)

What you will need is an Accounting service. In our case we pay 25K per year all inclusive (monthly/annual/audit)

Why do you need a lawyer to file monthly tax and social security forms? Anybody who can read Thai can do that.

Visa: my suggestion is DIY, it's easy if you have your papers in order

WP: same as visa but we do have a person who helps with the paperwork and does all the legwork. Cost per year: 3K plus official fees (have receipts).

My suggestion would be:

Go to a local university which has a law faculty and recruit a senior English speaking student on a part-time basis (weekend, holidays etc.) A lot cheaper and probably more efficient than a law office.

opalhort

Thank you guys for comments it really is appreciated, I was starting to lose all objectivity!

We used a Farang/Thai Lawyer firm to set up the business and upon their advise we registered it with 4 mil capital, as there where two farangs requiring work permits.

However at the time, our brief was to establish the business with lowest possible tax and accountancy/legal costs as we had zero revenue. We had know way of employing any Thais let alone 8! It was at this time we was advised that in fact employing Thais was not necessary if we was happy to have a temporary work permit, and wanted to do 90 day visa runs followed by a wp renewel. At the time we was please with that it meant it was viable to at least make a start.

everything has been fine until my work permit expired whilst I was in the UK. Then what happened is that my partner went for renewel in the normal fashion after his 90 day visa run, whilst I was away and was given a year! He was very happy. I went to the labour office with my girlfriend to renewe, and it was then that I was told that I would have to re apply. The problem now is that they are saying i wont get a work permit unless we have 8 employees which we still dont, although my account and girlfriend seem to think this is a formality, I dont...anyway my accountant imposed a lawyer on me momentarily to offer advice, he said "you now cant get a work permit unless you have 8 staff and are paying 5200 in social payments a month. " This is cost we have not had up until now.

Whats more he informed us that he would sort it all out for us for 65,000BHT a year, but that does not include the 5200BHT a month social payments.

So in the one small mistake of me not extending my work permit before I went to UK to get my Non B renewed our business costs have risen by around 127,400BHT a year....how can this be so? becuase we didnt have revenue our accountant has been using the fimrs capital topay our salaries, but very soon we will have a regular paying customer who is likely to be the back bone of our turnover in years to come. Our first years accounts have not been prepared yet we started trading in June last year.

[rufanuf]

Agreed this information is useful, but as the OP has Non B visa issued outside the Kingdom, the Labour Department will not check as to how many thais are actually employed when issuing WP. Therefore the ratio of 4:1 thai/farang does not apply. This is the case for my business.

Thaiphoon, if what your saying is true, it sounds like when I reapply I will in fact get the WP and whats more, it will be for a year? I wonder

if this lawyer was just trying to scare me into wasting a load of money?

Im down the labour office tomorrow morning gonna put in my app and see what happens, my Thai girlfriend's going to help me.

I'll keep my fingers crossed!

[p_brownstone]

Our first years accounts have not been prepared yet we started trading in June last year.

For Accounting purposes the Financial Year in Thailand runs from 1 January to 31 December, and a Company has to File Audited Accounts for the previous year by 31 May.

There may be special conditions allowed for Start-up Companies but I am not sure - you may already have problems with the Revenue Department, I suggest you check that as a matter of urgency too.

Patrick

[opalhort]

1. the 5,200B for social security is excessive for 8 employees even if it includes the employer(5%) and employee(5%) portion. This would calculate to a salary of 6,500B per employee which is well above the required minimum wage based on a 5 days per week work schedule!

2. Has your registered capital been fully paid-up?

If not and you did not have any revenue for some time and your salary has been drawn form capital then once the capital has been depleted your salary will be recorded as "loan to directors" in the balance sheet at which point the accountant would be required to record interest payments from the directors as revenue to the company!!! And a WP application can be very difficult if not impossible under these circumstances.

I speak from experience, but my experience was about 15 years ago so don't put to much weight into what I said above since things are certainly easier today.

opalhort

[Yoyo777]

you have been riped of badly. sorry to sai so direct. but it seems liek a nightmare.

i opened two companies last year. i decided to go with a very good lawyer. he is the lawyer for BMW Thailand.

and he is the best i could ever get.

just got a second work permit through him. everything is soo easy. took 4 weeks. no i got like the first time 2 year work permit and 1 year visa. charged me 20.000 baht plus government fees. so you see,..... they really rip you off.

also accounting: we have 11 employees and pay arround 3.000 baht a month for everything. thats it.

it is very difficult to find a realiable accounting for a reasonable price.

if you are interested in the service of my lawyer/accounting i am happy to give you their details.

send me a PM.

tobi

[opalhort]

For Accounting purposes the Financial Year in Thailand runs from 1 January to 31 December, and a Company has to File Audited Accounts for the previous year by 31 May.

Patrick

This is not entirely correct. For example our fiscal(accounting) year runs from Aug.21 to Aug.20 next year, based on the day of company registration. Our annual tax form (50) has to be filed by mid January. This can be changed though if the company wants to get it synchronized with the calender year.

opalhort

[thaiphoon]

1) You can select your year end month when company is set up. Then it is fixed and cannot be changed.

2) Yes. audited accounts have to be filed at Revenue Department within 5 months of company's year end

.

3) In my company the registered capital is not fully paid up. The balance outstanding shows in the accounts as an asset being monies due from directors. This has never caused me a problem with renewing my WP. But in the OPs case he has not yet filed his accounts, so they are not available to show to the Labour Department, so they would not see anyway.

4) OP: can you confirm when your visa was recently renewed in the UK it is 12 months Non B. If so, and unless the rules have changed (which I am not aware of) you should be able to obtain new WP without needing 8 employees.

Suggest you give Khun Ex a call at Sunbelt - forum sponsor and details at top of page. He is based at Fortune Town and is very knowledgable on WP matters. He has helped me out on several occasions and speaks perfect english. You will not go wrong making that call.

Keep us posted ...

[thaiphoon]

OP: Khun Ex has phoned me today about my own WP. I mentioned your case to him. He says the rules have changed for all new WPs and 4:1 thai/farang ratio now applies for each WP issued. But ... he says Labour Department will probably accept minimum of 4 thai employees if positioned that intention is to recruit more people. Not sure if that helps you or not without knowing how many thais your company currently employs. Khun Ex happy to talk to you if you want to call him, and he will deal with WP application for you if you want to proceed. Over to you ...

[rufanuf]

OP: Khun Ex has phoned me today about my own WP. I mentioned your case to him. He says the rules have changed for all new WPs and 4:1 thai/farang ratio now applies for each WP issued. But ... he says Labour Department will probably accept minimum of 4 thai employees if positioned that intention is to recruit more people. Not sure if that helps you or not without knowing how many thais your company currently employs. Khun Ex happy to talk to you if you want to call him, and he will deal with WP application for you if you want to proceed. Over to you ...

I dont really now if it helps either, but my girlfriend has been running around and discussing with my accountant.

Reading between the lines of this thread and others, I just wonder if someone could clarify something for me. Am I correct in saying that IF you are happy to obtain your Non B from your home country once a year, and do 90 day visa runs, you dont have to get involved with the Immigration Office in Thailnd in anyway shape or form? (ie no 90 reporting or lawyers fees for the same, and no annual visit to immigration to say hello)

Also another point. We have been getting our WPs with no problems on a salary of 35,000BHT. Yet so many people state it has to be 50,000BHT. Is this becuase different government departments have different requirments ? (ie labour office accept 35, but immigration dont for example?)

I am just trying to make sense of the advice/warnings we get from various people both farang and Thai that all seem to conflict with each other.

Im attending the labour office today to put in my app with my girlfriend, with no interference from lawyers, as in truth it seems that over time we get more probelms and expense with them involved than when they are not. Lets see what happens!!!

Thanks again

[lopburi3]

1. If you use visa 90 day entry there is no need to visit Immigration, make 90 day reports, or meet extension of stay requirements.

2. The nationality extension of stay requirement is 50k income in an immigration requirement - it is not a requirement for a work permit.

[Ralf61]

OP: Khun Ex has phoned me today about my own WP. I mentioned your case to him. He says the rules have changed for all new WPs and 4:1 thai/farang ratio now applies for each WP issued.

Never heared about this, and cannot find any proof. The only conditions to get my WP (November 2008)were:

-NON-Im Visa

-the job cannot be done by a Thai

-proper qualification for the job

-the registered capital of those 2M THB for each WP.

Not to be confused with the 1 year extension of stay conditions (4:1 = Thai/Farang employees; at min 50.000THB/month salary for EU citizen)

Is there a new rule? And if, where was it announced, and how do it affect renewal/extension of existig WPs?

I will never meet the 4:1-thing...

Somewhat concerned

Ralf

[rufanuf]

OP: Khun Ex has phoned me today about my own WP. I mentioned your case to him. He says the rules have changed for all new WPs and 4:1 thai/farang ratio now applies for each WP issued.

Never heared about this, and cannot find any proof. The only conditions to get my WP (November 2008)were:

-NON-Im Visa

-the job cannot be done by a Thai

-proper qualification for the job

-the registered capital of those 2M THB for each WP.

Not to be confused with the 1 year extension of stay conditions (4:1 = Thai/Farang employees; at min 50.000THB/month salary for EU citizen)

Is there a new rule? And if, where was it announced, and how do it affect renewal/extension of existig WPs?

I will never meet the 4:1-thing...

Somewhat concerned

Ralf

Thanks for everyone who is commentng on this post...some rather muddy waters are starting to clear a little.

It's apparent from the comments here that not just one lawyer, but both we have dealt with have tried to pull the wool over our eyes as to our options in how we manage our immigration status, which in turn effects how we run our business accounts (such things as the salary we draw for example)......it just seems that even the big law firms dont want you (the expat trying to make a business) to fully understand the options available, as its the best chance they have of making money out of you.

Anyhow...off my high horse! I didnt get my work permit today as I have to renew my shareholders list and get document stamped by a notary, becuase I am a foriegner employing a foriegner....but they said once I have those documents I will get my permit, far cry from the 65,000BHT the lawyer wanted from me!!!!

I never intended not going back to blighty once a year, so I will always be applying for my non imm B in UK....again it seems to me that the hassle of dealing with immigration (or the hassle of dealing with the lawyer who will deal with immigration for you!) is more trouble than it is worth for the sake of 3 half days a year spent on a quick visit to the border. Again all the lawyers we have met seemed to want to steer us in that direction (obviously so they could get the fees).

Makes you wonder why the world and his dog hate lawyers really doesnt it?

[thaiphoon]

OP: Khun Ex has phoned me today about my own WP. I mentioned your case to him. He says the rules have changed for all new WPs and 4:1 thai/farang ratio now applies for each WP issued.

Never heared about this, and cannot find any proof. The only conditions to get my WP (November 2008)were:

-NON-Im Visa

-the job cannot be done by a Thai

-proper qualification for the job

-the registered capital of those 2M THB for each WP.

Not to be confused with the 1 year extension of stay conditions (4:1 = Thai/Farang employees; at min 50.000THB/month salary for EU citizen)

Is there a new rule? And if, where was it announced, and how do it affect renewal/extension of existig WPs?

I will never meet the 4:1-thing...

Somewhat concerned

Ralf

Sunbelt advised me it reates to NEW work permit applications only, not renewals of existing work permits

[selftaopath]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone on this forum has experienced the problems we encounter almost every month with one issue or another over work permits, tax and their intertwined nature. It seems like its a fullt time job just dealing with this crap.

We started our business over a year ago and used a so called "reputable" firm to form our company and obtain our first work permits, which where temporary at the time (3 months, and have to visa run and renew work permit every 3 months).

Now when we started our firm we was assured by our reputable lawyer that the total overhead for retaining and maintaining our work permits would be in the region of 6000BHT per month per farang in the firm.

Since that time the costs have risen to something closer to 10,000 a month each, and there just never seems to be an end to taxes, govermment fees, accountants fees and lawyers fees.

What so frustrating about it all is how much we emphasised that tax overheads etc had to be as low as possible in our first few years of trading as we was a start up business. We may not have started it at all had we known the degree of hassle and expense involved that we are now aware of and all the costs associated with forming a company. We feel pretty duped by our reputable lawyer.

I just wondered what anyone else made of this breakdown in our base costs, and any how we can do away with so many fees/costs/tax.

2500BHT Monthly Accounting Fee

10,000BHT six monthly accounts

38,000BHT a year per farang lawyers fee for immigration and work permit maintenance

1500BHT a month witholding tax per farang to risw to 2500 shortly

1000BHT endless additional lawyers and government fees totalling typically 1000BHT a month (renewel of company affidavits, changing partners lists etc etc to retain and maintian work permits.

5200BHT social security (for Thais on our books) a month

To be honest I find most of it really hard to understand but the net effect of these charges is

approaching 220,000BHT a year, and as small business trying to get a foothold its pretty crippling.

I just wandered what others experiences where? The really frustrating thing about it all is that employing the services of lawyers and accountants just seems to make things more difficult and more expensive rather than easier! I think the lawyer who structured our company really screwed it up as well (we have subsequently been told that is why we are having so many problems, the structure of the business wont support two farangs in work permits).

To make matters worse our original lawyers never advised that under any circumstance we should let a work permit expire. Well I had to go to UK to renew my non Im B, and my permit expired whilst in the UK, so I wrongly believed it seems that the process would simply to be renew when I got back for another 3 month period....but instead I have had to start the process of applying for the work permit all over again, and now I am being told I will likely not get it! This is despite the fact I am MD of the business and that I have drawn a wage from the business and paid tax every single month even when in UK. Seems strange that they will take my tax but not give me a work permit.

Has anyone else been driven to distraction by these type of issues?

Dear Compadre,

Oh how I empathize with you. I have been enduring this same system of exploitation for four years now. I’m tired. And I can barely think of continuing paying all the taxes i.e. new/old/changed/revised/ temporary...... The financial drain is NEVER ending. I could write a book, but as I said this system feels like it is “burying me.” The so called “experts” who are supposed to advise can seem very much like the greedy government. Every mistake, or whim by the govt or lawyer will cost the “rich” farang more money. And don’t think for a minute that advertising on TV makes these “pros” squeaky clean. It really is note worthy that for every small business that is destroyed by the constant drain of finances vie Thai govt/lawyers many Thais (little people) will feel the financial effect. I could go on but as many Thais know "why bother." Can anything be changed in this totally corrupt country? Many would vote - NO

[selftaopath]

he problem now is that they are saying i wont get a work permit unless we have 8 employees which we still dont, although my account and girlfriend seem to think this is a formality, I dont...

The new form of exploitation e.g. changing the rules and REQUIRING a FEE for putting money back into the Social fund which was depleted. Some say the govt???? used the Social funds to buy votes and now can not admit to the fund being drained and certainly can not ask a Thai to pay. Soooooooo where else to turn???? YEP the "CASH COW" aka foreigner.

[selftaopath]

you have been riped of badly. sorry to sai so direct. but it seems liek a nightmare.

i opened two companies last year. i decided to go with a very good lawyer. he is the lawyer for BMW Thailand.

and he is the best i could ever get.

just got a second work permit through him. everything is soo easy. took 4 weeks. no i got like the first time 2 year work permit and 1 year visa. charged me 20.000 baht plus government fees. so you see,..... they really rip you off.

also accounting: we have 11 employees and pay arround 3.000 baht a month for everything. thats it.

it is very difficult to find a realiable accounting for a reasonable price.

if you are interested in the service of my lawyer/accounting i am happy to give you their details.

send me a PM.

tobi

Hi and thanks, I'm interested in your lawyer's and accountant's name and contact numbers, but I am not sure how to send you a PM? Can you PM me?

cheers, Keoki

[thaibkk]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone on this forum has experienced the problems we encounter almost every month with one issue or another over work permits, tax and their intertwined nature. It seems like its a fullt time job just dealing with this crap.

We started our business over a year ago and used a so called "reputable" firm to form our company and obtain our first work permits, which where temporary at the time (3 months, and have to visa run and renew work permit every 3 months).

Now when we started our firm we was assured by our reputable lawyer that the total overhead for retaining and maintaining our work permits would be in the region of 6000BHT per month per farang in the firm.

Since that time the costs have risen to something closer to 10,000 a month each, and there just never seems to be an end to taxes, govermment fees, accountants fees and lawyers fees.

What so frustrating about it all is how much we emphasised that tax overheads etc had to be as low as possible in our first few years of trading as we was a start up business. We may not have started it at all had we known the degree of hassle and expense involved that we are now aware of and all the costs associated with forming a company. We feel pretty duped by our reputable lawyer.

I just wondered what anyone else made of this breakdown in our base costs, and any how we can do away with so many fees/costs/tax.

2500BHT Monthly Accounting Fee

10,000BHT six monthly accounts

38,000BHT a year per farang lawyers fee for immigration and work permit maintenance

1500BHT a month witholding tax per farang to risw to 2500 shortly

1000BHT endless additional lawyers and government fees totalling typically 1000BHT a month (renewel of company affidavits, changing partners lists etc etc to retain and maintian work permits.

5200BHT social security (for Thais on our books) a month

To be honest I find most of it really hard to understand but the net effect of these charges is

approaching 220,000BHT a year, and as small business trying to get a foothold its pretty crippling.

I just wandered what others experiences where? The really frustrating thing about it all is that employing the services of lawyers and accountants just seems to make things more difficult and more expensive rather than easier! I think the lawyer who structured our company really screwed it up as well (we have subsequently been told that is why we are having so many problems, the structure of the business wont support two farangs in work permits).

To make matters worse our original lawyers never advised that under any circumstance we should let a work permit expire. Well I had to go to UK to renew my non Im B, and my permit expired whilst in the UK, so I wrongly believed it seems that the process would simply to be renew when I got back for another 3 month period....but instead I have had to start the process of applying for the work permit all over again, and now I am being told I will likely not get it! This is despite the fact I am MD of the business and that I have drawn a wage from the business and paid tax every single month even when in UK. Seems strange that they will take my tax but not give me a work permit.

Has anyone else been driven to distraction by these type of issues?

220.000 baht? that includes your royal 150.000 baht salary i guess, your small numbers just does not add up to such high amount

you can read, never used TV before ?

farang only lose money in this country and you do not even own your own investment/money as you never will own more than 49%

best way = never to start and find a country which really want you to own land, your own company and not to be forced to hire useless 4 local employees just to get a WP

my 50 satang

[Koh Chang]

Also, I do not understand why your WP has previously only been renewed in 3 month blocks. New regulations that came into effect early this year now means the Labour Department issue WP for 12 months, and expiry date of WP is no longer linked to ‘permission to stay’ date.

that is interesting. do you have a link where i can check that back?

thanks.

[Marvo]

1. If you use visa 90 day entry there is no need to visit Immigration, make 90 day reports, or meet extension of stay requirements.

2. The nationality extension of stay requirement is 50k income in an immigration requirement - it is not a requirement for a work permit.

1. As I understand it, the OP will have to report to immigration after each of his 90 day "visa runs" within 24 hrs of his return to his province.

2.As someone else mentioned, the Labour Office have "informally" adopted immigration's annual extension of stay salary guidelines, so for Brits and Europeans, 50k it is I'm afraid.

[bencottrell]

OP: Khun Ex has phoned me today about my own WP. I mentioned your case to him. He says the rules have changed for all new WPs and 4:1 thai/farang ratio now applies for each WP issued.

Never heared about this, and cannot find any proof. The only conditions to get my WP (November 2008)were:

-NON-Im Visa

-the job cannot be done by a Thai

-proper qualification for the job

-the registered capital of those 2M THB for each WP.

Not to be confused with the 1 year extension of stay conditions (4:1 = Thai/Farang employees; at min 50.000THB/month salary for EU citizen)

Is there a new rule? And if, where was it announced, and how do it affect renewal/extension of existig WPs?

I will never meet the 4:1-thing...

Somewhat concerned

Ralf

I have also been advised that if you apply for your work permit without 1 year extension of stay

(ie non B multiple, 3 monthly border runs) that there is no need to show proof of paying insurance for 4 Thai employees.

If you have the one year extension, you have to prove.

my question is...isnt having the 4 Thai employees a legal requirement of having a work permit?

...and just because one government department doesnt check this and issues your WP, doesnt mean you wont get into some problems later on when it is looked into?

[dasy]

Hi Tobi,

If you would be so kind as to send me the name of your accountant by PM I will be very grateful thank you.

David

you have been riped of badly. sorry to sai so direct. but it seems liek a nightmare.

i opened two companies last year. i decided to go with a very good lawyer. he is the lawyer for BMW Thailand.

and he is the best i could ever get.

just got a second work permit through him. everything is soo easy. took 4 weeks. no i got like the first time 2 year work permit and 1 year visa. charged me 20.000 baht plus government fees. so you see,..... they really rip you off.

also accounting: we have 11 employees and pay arround 3.000 baht a month for everything. thats it.

it is very difficult to find a realiable accounting for a reasonable price.

if you are interested in the service of my lawyer/accounting i am happy to give you their details.

send me a PM.

tobi

[rufanuf]

Hi,

Well, having watched this thread develop, it seems their really aren't any set of rules that people can agree on, or perhaps the same people who like to muddy the waters for financial gain have now entered this thread?

It would be grate if a law firm would create something along the lines of a flow chart, that clearly illustrated what the requirments of each goverment department actually are for a foriegner, and what requirments where either optional or obligatory depending on the status you was trying to obtain.

In simplest terms I want live and work in Thailand legally, but am quite happy to do border runs and an annual visit to the UK. My only issue as a small start up business is why do we have to find in excess of 200,000BHT in legal,accounting,tax and other government fees a year when others are saying their total spend on this buearcratic nonsense is only a fraction of that.

[Marvo]

Hi,

Well, having watched this thread develop, it seems their really aren't any set of rules that people can agree on, or perhaps the same people who like to muddy the waters for financial gain have now entered this thread?

It would be grate if a law firm would create something along the lines of a flow chart, that clearly illustrated what the requirments of each goverment department actually are for a foriegner, and what requirments where either optional or obligatory depending on the status you was trying to obtain.

In simplest terms I want live and work in Thailand legally, but am quite happy to do border runs and an annual visit to the UK. My only issue as a small start up business is why do we have to find in excess of 200,000BHT in legal,accounting,tax and other government fees a year when others are saying their total spend on this buearcratic nonsense is only a fraction of that.

Just got my 1 year WP last week:

(Company: 2 yrs old, capitalisation: 2 mil baht)

If it helps anyone, my business and WP associated expenses are as follows...

WP Gov't fee: 3100 baht

My agent's fee for doing all my WP paperwork etc.: 10,000 baht

4 Thai employees (tax & social): 2100 baht/mo

My "alleged" salary 50,000 baht, - taxes etc. on which: 3,084 baht/mo

Monthly accounting service: 2,000 baht/mo

Co. Balance sheet and audit: 15,000 baht

= 114,308 baht per year.

[uk2la99]

you have been riped of badly. sorry to sai so direct. but it seems liek a nightmare.

i opened two companies last year. i decided to go with a very good lawyer. he is the lawyer for BMW Thailand.

and he is the best i could ever get.

just got a second work permit through him. everything is soo easy. took 4 weeks. no i got like the first time 2 year work permit and 1 year visa. charged me 20.000 baht plus government fees. so you see,..... they really rip you off.

also accounting: we have 11 employees and pay arround 3.000 baht a month for everything. thats it.

it is very difficult to find a realiable accounting for a reasonable price.

if you are interested in the service of my lawyer/accounting i am happy to give you their details.

send me a PM.

tobi

[Ralf61]

OP: Khun Ex has phoned me today about my own WP. I mentioned your case to him. He says the rules have changed for all new WPs and 4:1 thai/farang ratio now applies for each WP issued.

Never heared about this, and cannot find any proof. The only conditions to get my WP (November 2008)were:

-NON-Im Visa

-the job cannot be done by a Thai

-proper qualification for the job

-the registered capital of those 2M THB for each WP.

Not to be confused with the 1 year extension of stay conditions (4:1 = Thai/Farang employees; at min 50.000THB/month salary for EU citizen)

Is there a new rule? And if, where was it announced, and how do it affect renewal/extension of existig WPs?

I will never meet the 4:1-thing...

Somewhat concerned

Ralf

I have also been advised that if you apply for your work permit without 1 year extension of stay

(ie non B multiple, 3 monthly border runs) that there is no need to show proof of paying insurance for 4 Thai employees.

If you have the one year extension, you have to prove.

my question is...isnt having the 4 Thai employees a legal requirement of having a work permit?

...and just because one government department doesnt check this and issues your WP, doesnt mean you wont get into some problems later on when it is looked into?

As I already mentioned: do not confuse the requirements for getting a legal WP, with those requirements for getting a 1-year-extension due to work/running a business. The 4:1-Thai:Farang rule and the minimum income applies only for the 1-year-extension stamp. See Sunbelt-website:

"You do not need to employ any Thai nationals or be paid the minimum salary for your nationality to obtain a work permit."

If you do not meet any criteria for one of those extension-of-stay requirements (for Visa B or for Visa O), you can legally hold an WP and work legally on that, as many Farangs do, who set up and work with a LTD Partnership businenss together with their Thai girl-friends as "Managing Director" (Thai wife would you probably qualify for an 1-year-extension on Visa O), but you still have to do those silly and time and money consuming 90-days visa runs (Thai immigration law is really old, and there are some reasons for some regulations, but someone should tell them something about globalisation; but Thais are not the only ones in this concern).

Eh, Visa-Runs, nothing for too lazy or too bussy people:

So, some very smart lawyers offer, for some of your X0,000THB, their services in preparing the "right" paperwork for getting the extension from Immigration, i.e. they will fake 4 Thai employees for you with the appropriate social insurance and tax papers (the payments will be real, and they will be done by you), and you will get your extension-stamp, but:

-Your company and you will also get a surprise visit from Imm (probability is above 90%), and if they simply cannot see those 4 employees, matching the fotografs you (or your lawyer-friend) handed in with application papers, than the following will happen:

1. Both your visa and extension of stay will get cancelled immediately (they will have the appropriate stamps on hand).

2. You have to leave the country immediately (maybe within 7 days, if the Immis have a good day). Bad situation, if you leased a house for some Mega-THB and got all your personal chattels in it, but the Immis will not care about this.

3. You, your employer (i.e. your girl-friend in most cases) and your lawyer-friend will get reported to local police, and you and your employer will face a trial on court with the following outcome:

-You will get a fine and, maybe, blacklisted for at least 1 year not to enter Thailand (you won't pay the fine until your next entry to Thailand, as you will be already somewhere else).

-Your employer will get a fine/jail time.

-Your lawyer-friend will get a "fine" from his local-police-friends, and it will take him a smile to pay that one off fom your X0,000THB mentioned above.

Worst of the worst, but it is all about the 1 year extension-of-stay due to work/business-thing and NOT about work permit. It seems, some people try to make a lot of money out of this confusion between WP and 1-Year-Stay. They tell you about the consequences of faking an extension of stay (and you have already heared rumors about that some other day) , confuse and mix this up with WP-requirements, offer their help, and become wealthy....

That is the general strategy of those very bad Rip-the-Farangs-Thais: You are stranger, you no idea, wat going on (as you cannot speak, let alone read and write Pasa Thai), this Thailand but not Farang-Land, you in big problems, but Thais very good pepol, we help you...

Thank God, there are really masses of really good people in this country, who will help you for goodwill, and those people are very ashamed about their fellow rip-the-farangs-countrymen, but they are probably not the first ones you will meet. The bad ones are full of energy, very active and profit driven...

Keep carefull

Ralf

[/font]