Best Linguist Around And Best Farang Thai Speaker I Have Heard!

[vedantafx]

Hmm, i thought this thread would have died a long time ago - are we sure the OP is not just a doing a bit of 'gureilla marketing' here?

Anyway, let's not waste the opportunity to pick up some new vocab. Following this thread gave me this new word (from the Oxford River Press dictionary):

hagiography = การเขียนชีวประวัตินักบุญ

No certainly not. I was just impressed by this guys language abilities. Maybe it is not so impressive if you can speak Thai, but as someone who at the earlier stages of David Smiths book on Thai grammar, and learning from my personal perspective I was impressed. His way to learn the vowels is quite innovative(again from my perspective)as I have picked them up pretty quickly from a couple of watches of the vdo. I don't know this guy, and only found the videos by accident. The great thing about youtube is you end up on things totally unrelated to what you were originally looking for...It is quite cynical to suggest I am marketing for this guy, when it seems other people on here have found it useful.

I worked in marketing for many years and I don't think the suggestion is cynical - you can buy books on how to do this kind of marketing, its going on all over the net. In an open forum nobody knows anybody, so don't take it as a personal attack on YOU - its more a reflection of how a forum on thai langauge seems to have turned into an advertising campaign.

I agree with you that there has been some useful posts as a result, so i'm not knocking the whole thread, - i guess i was just hoping it might bet back to something more useful. I'd be the first to agree that the twists and turns in a thread oftne lead to more useful results than the original intention...

I'd also agree with you that SJs video's are helpful - that was never the issue.

No worries man, you are quite right, I m interested in investment/trading and these forums are full of sharks doing this type of thing, with their "great systems" or someones "great trading systm they are using"...

As a complete novice I did get excited by this, as someone who has not acquired many linguistic skills...yet...but now I want to try and pick up more. I m trying to learn the writing system, quickly and well...any suggestions or tools on the web? I have rossetta stone (copy) not impressed. I have a linguaphone basic...it is ok, I mean you can mimic the speaking, but it will not teach you how to learn the script,l or construct the language. I want to be able learn from reading the script to pronounce words, not by transliteration and mimicking another voice. So any tips on learning the script quickly would be cool...

Cheers

[wayfarer108]

Stu Jay Raj: ฝรั่งหรือแขก?

[ElZorro]

Talking about Thai linguists / foreigners that have already mastered the Thai language: a few minutes ago, TVThai interviewed the British Ambassador to Thailand, Mr. Quinton Quayle.

[keo]

Sorry, but Mr. Quinton Quayle's Thai accent leaves a lot to be desired IMHO.

I heard him do a speech recently - both in English and Thai, and his accent was nearly exactly the same for both. This was the first time I had heard him speak Thai, but had previously heard several different Thais raving about how good his Thai is. They are obviously easier pleased than I am!

Stu Raj wipes the floor with QQ, both in terms of Thai language ability and all round "diamond geezer" value. QQ was born into that position, but Stu Raj tapped messages in morse code to his Grandad at the dinner table to get where he is. That's out of sight!

I know who I'd rather meet at a party, or for that matter... have representing my country.

Hey Mangkorn, any videos of you on Thai TV?

Hyperpolygot anyone??....

[keo]

douben post

Edited July 28, 2009 by keo

[aanon]

Sorry, but Mr. Quinton Quayle's Thai accent leaves a lot to be desired IMHO.

I heard him do a speech recently - both in English and Thai, and his accent was nearly exactly the same for both. This was the first time I had heard him speak Thai, but had previously heard several different Thais raving about how good his Thai is. They are obviously easier pleased than I am!

Ok, there are a few sounds and tones in there that are a bit off, but I think his accent would be pretty good if he was delivering a prepared message/speech. I can't imagine it would cause any problems for listeners. Also, he has got a good resonant voice going that is similar in character to many native speakers who do public speaking, etc, which I think helps.

[SoftWater]

Sorry, but Mr. Quinton Quayle's Thai accent leaves a lot to be desired IMHO.

I wouldn't knock him for his acccent, its the hardest thing to improve. I often try not to sound like 'myself' but then sound weird. A thai friend recently told me that when I speak thai I sound like i'm taking the p*ss. I think its because i'm so conscious of trying to get the tones right i overstress them.

QQ sounds to me a lot like people who've only learned with a teacher in a classroom or from cds and tapes, but not had much daily experience of speaking in thai with locals. Maybe if he gets hooked up with a non-English speaking thai wife his accent will start to improve!

[Rikker]

QQ's Thai is decent, but he lacks precision. Stu's accent is far better. For one, QQ has trouble with short and long vowels -- when he said ไกล ใกล้ it sounded more like กลาย กล้าย. And you can hear his British accent in his pronunciation of vowels like สระอา, etc.

Interesting to see and hear, though.

[nakachalet]

"I won't give up until I'm better than the next person"

good translation--ผมจะไม่ยอมจนเก่งกว่าชาวบ้าน

better translation--ผมไม่ยอมแพ้ง่ายๆหรอก จนกว่าผมจะดีเด่นกว่าคนอื่นๆ

----------------------

"If I put my mind to learning a language"

somewhat ambiguous--ถ้าทำ

better translation--เมื่อผมตั้งใจจะเรียนภาษาใดแล้ว ....

----------------------

"If I'm not a native speaker..."

ในเมื่อไม่ได้เป็นเจ้าของภาษา...

"ถ้าผมไม่ใช่เจ้าของภาษา...."

----------------------

submitted with reluctancy and humility

[Johpa]

Hmm, i thought this thread would have died a long time ago - are we sure the OP is not just a doing a bit of 'gureilla marketing' here?

Anyway, let's not waste the opportunity to pick up some new vocab. Following this thread gave me this new word (from the Oxford River Press dictionary):

hagiography = การเขียนชีวประวัตินักบุญ

And I thought it might be something that would translate akin to "writing history in the style of M. L. Manich Jumsai".

[nakachalet]

Stu Jay Raj: ฝรั่งหรือแขก?

khow bork wa, phor khow pan khag krub, mai chai farang krub.

stu mentioned that his dad is indian, not farang.

stu บอกว่า พ่อเขาเป็นเเขก ไม่ใช่ฝรั่ง นะครับ

Edited July 29, 2009 by nakachalet

[Rikker]

"I won't give up until I'm better than the next person"

good translation--ผมจะไม่ยอมจนเก่งกว่าชาวบ้าน

better translation--ผมไม่ยอมแพ้ง่ายๆหรอก จนกว่าผมจะดีเด่นกว่าคนอื่นๆ

----------------------

"If I put my mind to learning a language"

somewhat ambiguous--ถ้าทำ

better translation--เมื่อผมตั้งใจจะเรียนภาษาใดแล้ว ....

----------------------

"If I'm not a native speaker..."

ในเมื่อไม่ได้เป็นเจ้าของภาษา...

"ถ้าผมไม่ใช่เจ้าของภาษา...."

----------------------

submitted with reluctancy and humility

I only transcribed Stu's Thai -- he did the back-translating into English himself, I believe. But sure, there are bound to be alternate or better ways of phrasing what he said. Hindsight is 20/20. It's a live TV interview, after all.

[mangkorn]

It's good, I suppose, that others have responded to Mangkorn's post in a light-hearted way. Still, I'd like to invite him to contribute some counter-points to the thread if he sees an imbalance, rather than merely sticking a dismissive label on the contributions of others.

No worries, Aanon. I do admire Jay's talent, and appreciate his own contributions to this forum, particularly for his good humour. I have never knocked him, nor would I ever have any reason to do so. I only meant that even he must find this kind of thread to be somewhat embarrassing.

Sorry, my allusion to the present-day idolatry of an exiled emperor went over like a lead balloon...

Iconoclastically yours, Mangkorn

[FD333]

I am curious however, regarding an issue that is raised near the end of the (Thai) interview. Jay states when he hears sounds he then sees colours.

Is Jay a synesthete? It would go a long way to explain his exceptional language skills/learning abilities and there is supporting evidence that synesthesia is hereditory, which would explain the same skills/gift evident with his grandfather. Do any other members of his family possess similar language gifts?

I do not mean to detract from Jay in any way -he is both astounding and an inspiration.

However, if he is a synesthete, there is very little chance of me, the average Joe, being able to learn another language with the ease he can. To his credit, it appears to me that he fully comprehends this and rather than stress the teaching side of his skills he chooses to underline the business application which I find just as admirable.

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, I think what he describes means he is a synesthete.

But even without synesthesis I think the associations that come automatically to him, can still be effectively used as mnemonics by non-synesthetes.

Remember that strong motivation, regular practice and a dogged determination is the most important part in the learning process.

The average Joe will probably not be able to easily get to where Jay is at, but I firmly believe that 3-4 languages is within the realm of possibility even for the average Joe, given enough determination and practice... and stimulation.

A supportive and encouraging environment, where learning and intellectual pursuits are seen as an essential, fun and natural part of life from early childhood, rather than something that 'other people' do, goes a long, long way.

[mangkorn]

For what it's worth:

"Now, little by little I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes. Kaleidoscopic, fantastic images surged in on me, alternating, variegated, opening and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves in constant flux. It was particularly remarkable how every acoustic perception, such as the sound of a door handle or a passing automobile, became transformed into optical perceptions. Every sound generated a vividly changing image, with its own consistent form and color."

- Swiss scientist Albert Hoffman, describing the first-ever controlled experiment with LSD-25

(Edit: In case it is necessary to say, this has absolutely nothing to do with Jay; the synesthete reference merely triggered my recall of Dr. Hoffman's personal observations. Cheers.)

Edited August 10, 2009 by mangkorn

[tgeezer]

QQ's Thai is decent, but he lacks precision. Stu's accent is far better. For one, QQ has trouble with short and long vowels -- when he said ไกล ใกล้ it sounded more like กลาย กล้าย. And you can hear his British accent in his pronunciation of vowels like สระอา, etc.

Interesting to see and hear, though.

In defense of our excellent ambassador: it is amazing to me that people think that you have to sound like a Thai when you speak Thai, have you heard some of the English spoken by so called English speakers? The important thing is to be understood and he is perfect in that department, he said กลาย and กล้าย which you seem to think should have been ไกล and ใกล้ surely you will allow him to choose his own examples, its his interview! He is British and sounds as he should.

Edited August 10, 2009 by tgeezer

[meadish_sweetball]

I take it you're faking anger as a joke? This would work well and be funny in a real life situation, but it's easy to misunderstand online. Maybe I just did?

[tgeezer]

I take it you're faking anger as a joke? This would work well and be funny in a real life situation, but it's easy to misunderstand online. Maybe I just did?

Sort of venous half-joke; it was meant to be followed by The point is that the interview was for Thais, many of whom would not be familiar with the difficulty farang have with those words; he was asked to show the difficulty which he did, only to be criticised for getting it 'right'. I think that had he said ใกล้ and ไกล many viewers would not have got the point. I understand that I probably shouldn't comment on a thread which I was not following because I found that it held no interest for me, I looked in wondering why it was still going, and was confronted by people commenting on the quality of a normal persons attempt to speak a foreign tongue, which strikes me as very un-Thai.

[SoftWater]

For what it's worth:

"Now, little by little I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes. Kaleidoscopic, fantastic images surged in on me, alternating, variegated, opening and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves in constant flux. It was particularly remarkable how every acoustic perception, such as the sound of a door handle or a passing automobile, became transformed into optical perceptions. Every sound generated a vividly changing image, with its own consistent form and color."

- Swiss scientist Albert Hoffman, describing the first-ever controlled experiment with LSD-25

(Edit: In case it is necessary to say, this has absolutely nothing to do with Jay; the synesthete reference merely triggered my recall of Dr. Hoffman's personal observations. Cheers.)

Goddamit! All those wasted hours of youth listening to Pink Floyd and watching the swirly patterns on the ceiling - if only I'd know then to trip out instead with Benjamin Poomsan Becker I'd be a native speaker by now!!

[bannork]

For what it's worth:

"Now, little by little I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes. Kaleidoscopic, fantastic images surged in on me, alternating, variegated, opening and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves in constant flux. It was particularly remarkable how every acoustic perception, such as the sound of a door handle or a passing automobile, became transformed into optical perceptions. Every sound generated a vividly changing image, with its own consistent form and color."

- Swiss scientist Albert Hoffman, describing the first-ever controlled experiment with LSD-25

(Edit: In case it is necessary to say, this has absolutely nothing to do with Jay; the synesthete reference merely triggered my recall of Dr. Hoffman's personal observations. Cheers.)

Goddamit! All those wasted hours of youth listening to Pink Floyd and watching the swirly patterns on the ceiling - if only I'd know then to trip out instead with Benjamin Poomsan Becker I'd be a native speaker by now!!

'And then one day you find, ten years have gone behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun........'

[meadish_sweetball]

'And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking; racing around to come up behind you again.

The sun is the same, in a relative way, but you're older - shorter of breath and one day closer to death.'

Ahhh, such uplifting lyrics. Great song nonetheless.

[neverdie]

I am impressed. Wish I could do that. dam_n , I take my hat off to you Mr Stuart Jay Raj.

[FD333]

Please excuse a delay in returning to this thread and my question re synesthesia...thanks for the follow up replies, which raised a smile. A couple of observations on my behalf...

Yes, motivation is the key and I am afraid I do rather lack this when it comes to learning Thai to a comprehensive level (my bad). That said, I was aware enough from a very young age that there appeared to be a 'contradiction' in the learning process. I could, like every child remember numerous pop songs and all their lyrics yet was puzzled that I might stumble over historical dates or a French verb...motivation.

Hah! My closest experience to synesthesia was under the influence of a certain, shall we say 'X' factor, when with eyes closed, chill music playing, I could envision a never-ending stream of brilliantly coloured almost 'Tron' like images opening, folding in on themselves, exploding....urgh, excuse me, I think I am having a "flashback".

[TheChiefJustice]

Oh my stars! Mr. Quinton Quayle's accent is absolutely atrocious. Honestly, I do not mean to be disrespectful, but anyone who thinks his accent is acceptable is tone deaf.

[Rikker]

I take it you're faking anger as a joke? This would work well and be funny in a real life situation, but it's easy to misunderstand online. Maybe I just did?

Sort of venous half-joke; it was meant to be followed by The point is that the interview was for Thais, many of whom would not be familiar with the difficulty farang have with those words; he was asked to show the difficulty which he did, only to be criticised for getting it 'right'. I think that had he said ใกล้ and ไกล many viewers would not have got the point. I understand that I probably shouldn't comment on a thread which I was not following because I found that it held no interest for me, I looked in wondering why it was still going, and was confronted by people commenting on the quality of a normal persons attempt to speak a foreign tongue, which strikes me as very un-Thai.

Commenting does not equal criticizing, and criticizing does not equal denigrating. Also, you may, by my use of the letter z in the previous sentence, have picked up on the fact that QQ is not my ambassador. I don't know him from Adam.

I was just making an observation. His point was the difficulty of the language, and he was trying to demonstrate the contrastive nature of Thai tones. It just seemed to me that he is still lacking in mastering the contrastive nature of vowel length.

Nothing against the guy! But if that interview is any indication, I'm afraid I can't buy your claim that "he is perfect in [being understood]". Because I don't really buy that anybody is.

Criticism can be constructive. As for whether it's un-Thai or not, well, that depends. You're right that it can be difficult to get a Thai to comment openly on your Thai accent, but that doesn't mean they understand you perfectly.

[tgeezer]

I spell 'criticizing' your way too.

[Jay_Jay]

Hi all,

I think I've swung by this thread a little late. It's been interesting reading through the comments hearing people's feedback.

As has been pointed out, being able to speak a lot of languages (polyglot) doesn't mean that you're a linguist. I consider myself both. Looking at my book collection at home would be a fair representation on where my heart lies in both areas - About 80% of my books are language based - with about 35-40% of those language based books being books that would aid learning / learning about / maintaining languages and culture. The rest of the language books are linguistic text-books. I am fascinated with several topics that fall under phonology - especially in regard to languages of India, China and SE Asia.

On the polyglot side of things, the thing that motivates me to learn new languages is that each new language gives me access to getting to know and understand 'people' at new levels. Each language I learn opens up opportunities for millions of new people to have an influence on my life that might not have otherwise had the opportunity of doing so. Where I'm sitting at the moment is a case in point - I'm sitting in my hotel room in the Bahamas just returning from rehearsals downstairs for the 2009 Miss Universe pageant. I'm interpreting for Miss Indonesia and Miss Thailand. I've been fortunate enough to have this Miss Universe gig since 2005 when it was held in Bangkok. The reason that fell into my lap was because I was doing a job interviewing Miss Indonesia 2005 in Bangkok for an Indonesian TV station - which came about because I had been interpreting Indonesian for journalists during the Tsunami earlier that year. Because of that Joh Jai show, another show with JSL (production company - same producers as Joh Jai) has been opened up to me now that I'm one of the co-hosts on Channel five called เหนือชั้น 1000 แปลก, where they have been sending me all over the world to find amazing people / places / things. Again, it was the languages that made this opportunity possible.

I've found that over the years, languages for me are kind of like the teleporter in Star Trek that provide me with an education / new knowledge (access to information from some of the most amazing resources in science, government, business etc) and access to people and places that I would never normally have been able to have access to (or even thought that I would want to have access to). Once I'm there, it's up to me to make the most of it by building networks, maintaining them, learning from them, bringing value to them and capitalising on them myself (either financially, educationally, emotionally etc).

It's not a competition for me to rack up as many languages as I can for the sake of doing it. Each language that I've learned has normally had very organic origins, mainly based on people whose paths I've crossed - or stumbling across something while studying a topic of linguistics where gaining knowledge of another related language would help in clarifying a certain point.

That chart you see in the Joh Jai show was put together on the fly because they asked me to list the languages that speak / have studied / been interested in. I saw the perils in putting such a chart together and didn't know how to really delineate between them, so I chose to do a rough 1-5 ranking, very roughly based on the UN ranking system. I personally hate counting / ranking languages like this. I just love learning anything to do with language / learning languages.

In the spirit of bringing value to people who have sat and read through this, I've included a copy of a couple of charts that I've been working on.

1. The first is a comparative chart of several Indic based scripts - Thai, Khmer, Burmese, Devanagari, Balinese, Javanese, Panjabi and Tamil.

2. The second is a solely Thai extraction of that chart with the second page a run-down of all the letters, corresponding phonetic glyphs, phonetic pronunciation and tonal rules. I've seen this chart been most effective with my students when it is printed as an A3 chart - page 1 front / page 2 back and then laminated.

My apologies for several typos that you will find in these versions. Working on the new versions right now. Also thanks to Peter Griebel who took the initiative to help develop and re-work the graphics for the second Thai chart.

I really take my hat off to the guru's on this forum like Rikker - your work / input has been priceless. Thank you!

Stu Jay Raj.

Stu_Jay_Raj_Indic_Consonant_Compass_1.0_SE_Asia.pdf

Stuart_Jay_Raj___Thai_Consonant_Map_Full_2.2.pdf

[desi]

I'm sitting in my hotel room in the Bahamas just returning from rehearsals downstairs for the 2009 Miss Universe pageant. I'm interpreting for Miss Indonesia and Miss Thailand. I've been fortunate enough to have this Miss Universe gig since 2005 when it was held in Bangkok.

Kudos to you Stu! I'm looking forward to your return to Thailand (when you'll have more free time to answer emails and all).

As for the rest of you guys... just how many of you are now kicking your shins for NOT taking a more serious interest in languages?

[Jay_Jay]

I'm sitting in my hotel room in the Bahamas just returning from rehearsals downstairs for the 2009 Miss Universe pageant. I'm interpreting for Miss Indonesia and Miss Thailand. I've been fortunate enough to have this Miss Universe gig since 2005 when it was held in Bangkok.

Kudos to you Stu! I'm looking forward to your return to Thailand (when you'll have more free time to answer emails and all).

As for the rest of you guys... just how many of you are now kicking your shins for NOT taking a more serious interest in languages?

Ahh yes Desi!... It's nice to know that language can still be sexy! It's definitely good motivation