Wine In Checked Baggage

[G54]

I looked into this last year but was undecided then as to a course of action. Now the idea has cropped up again.

The general idea is to have a VIP 16 seater mini-bus and use it on runs from the BKK area. A couple of friends do this already and do quite well from it, each now owning 3 buses and another friend started with a 10 year old bus a year ago and now has 2 (including a 3 year old VIP bus).

I am wondering what the situation would be from a legal point of view for a Farang owned mini bus to be doing the same.

1) I can buy the mini-bus but would prefer to do that under finance with a 20% deposit - is that possible for a foreigner? (If so, any observations on where best to obtain the finance?)

2) As the mini bus would be used for business, can I have the bus in my name?

3) If I have a Thai driver - would I need a work permit as the owner of the vehicle?

Insurance cover is not a problem, nor is it a problem to get in on the good routes that are making reasonable money as I have the contacts for this.

Repayments and costing have been given to me by Thai friends individually and the amounts average out for each individual costing I have been given.

Any ideas, experience or observations would be welcome.

Thanks.

[torrenova]

You can buy any type of vehicle but you won't get 20% down finance. I don't think you'll get any finance but if you do, it will be at 50%+ down.

I don't see why the bus could not be in your name. There are issues with culpability though. It might be wise to distance yourself from ownership but a check of the insurance available would be required before you could decide that. In essence, you don't want a crash to end up with a load of Thais suing you personally.

You would not need a WP just because you owned the vehicle. You would need a WP if you worked though.

My main concern is these "runs" you mention. I suspect buses need authorisation or operate illegally. I would watch out for stepping on someone else's toes as well. There are lots of things to work through before doing this. Personally I don't like the business as an idea and I see a whole load of complications.

You will have to check out what licenses are required for the number of seats. Like PSV.

If you explain more then I can retort but my head says no.

[hearditallbefore]

20% down or near it is no problem if you have a thai co-signer (guarantor). Try deeteesood.com, their lot is on Sukhumvit road down past On-nut BTS station and the female manager there speaks some English. They finance foreigners all the time through AIG or other companies.

The rest of your plan to use them for roat tuu's (express van's) is quite difficult. It's all operated by different mafia's, so if your friends are in, then you are in, if not, then you can't get in. Even if you are "in", you will never be "really" in, meaning if people see you are making a profit, they will run you off. If you are only making enough to pay the drivers and tea money, they will allow you to operate until you lose it all on your own.

Also, at least every 2 years there is a crackdown on unlicensed vans, so if you do get in, keep plenty of tea money around.

If you can't speak thai, be prepared to lose it all at any given moment and walk away. As the rules are here, never invest anything here that you can't afford to lose and walk away from.

Also always remember, in deals like this, if there was money to be made doing it, the Thai's would ALREADY be doing it, as there are drivers that have been doing it their entire lives.

[beano2274]

Would the drivers need special licenses?

The problem I see is that you are trying to get into a business that is completely overrun, a better business using Vans would be couriering passengers to hotels for renowned Hotel chains, if they have not already got that done, or ferrying tourists around Bangkok on trips to Paragon, the Emerald Buddha and so forth.

[katabeachbum]

I looked into this last year but was undecided then as to a course of action. Now the idea has cropped up again.

The general idea is to have a VIP 16 seater mini-bus and use it on runs from the BKK area. A couple of friends do this already and do quite well from it, each now owning 3 buses and another friend started with a 10 year old bus a year ago and now has 2 (including a 3 year old VIP bus).

I am wondering what the situation would be from a legal point of view for a Farang owned mini bus to be doing the same.

1) I can buy the mini-bus but would prefer to do that under finance with a 20% deposit - is that possible for a foreigner? (If so, any observations on where best to obtain the finance?)

2) As the mini bus would be used for business, can I have the bus in my name?

3) If I have a Thai driver - would I need a work permit as the owner of the vehicle?

Insurance cover is not a problem, nor is it a problem to get in on the good routes that are making reasonable money as I have the contacts for this.

Repayments and costing have been given to me by Thai friends individually and the amounts average out for each individual costing I have been given.

Any ideas, experience or observations would be welcome.

Thanks.

Farang can not drive this vehicle, no exception. Its commercial and seats more than 10, two reasons for thai national only.

VIP 16 seats? VIP van is 8-10 seats. Anything else is crowded

If a commercial vehicle is registered in your name, you are running a business. WP needed.

Finance for a new Toyota should be easy, but interest is high for these vehicles, expect 7 %.

Work hard on the insurance, to make sure it covers your debt at any time. Thais can not drive 16 seats with car-license, need commercial bus licence.

[katabeachbum]

20% down or near it is no problem if you have a thai co-signer (guarantor). Try deeteesood.com, their lot is on Sukhumvit road down past On-nut BTS station and the female manager there speaks some English. They finance foreigners all the time through AIG or other companies.

The rest of your plan to use them for roat tuu's (express van's) is quite difficult. It's all operated by different mafia's, so if your friends are in, then you are in, if not, then you can't get in. Even if you are "in", you will never be "really" in, meaning if people see you are making a profit, they will run you off. If you are only making enough to pay the drivers and tea money, they will allow you to operate until you lose it all on your own.

Also, at least every 2 years there is a crackdown on unlicensed vans, so if you do get in, keep plenty of tea money around.

If you can't speak thai, be prepared to lose it all at any given moment and walk away. As the rules are here, never invest anything here that you can't afford to lose and walk away from.

Also always remember, in deals like this, if there was money to be made doing it, the Thai's would ALREADY be doing it, as there are drivers that have been doing it their entire lives.

What they often want is to have farang buy the van with 20-40% down, and then take over when problems arrise. Clever

[G54]

Thanks for all the input given above. It all helps to see things in different perspectives.

There are different opinions about needing a work permit for owning a mini bus. That is something I need to know about.

As for the routes themselves, this would be in partnership with a Thai who already has 2 very good and long term friends (since school) who are well established on these routes and can get the mini bus in on the same runs.

Obviously I would be a silent partner in respect of people knowing who actually owns the vehicle and the Thai doing all the work and myself being the one to ensure bills are paid and that, from the background, things run smoothly with respect to payments etc.

Good points to note about the insurance. Nothing worse than been held liable in case of any accident.

I will personally check exactly how many seats these buses do have and also go and look around (without, being too obvious about it).

The finances given independently from 2 sources are :-

Case 1)

Bank payments 17,600 p.m.

Driver 12,000 p.m.

Insurance 2,000 p.m.

NGV 27,000 p.m.

Daily income 3,500 - 4,000 per day. On 8 runs a day.

Case 2)

Bank 25,000 p.m.

Driver 10,000 p.m.

Insurance 4,000 p.m.

NGV 15,000 p.m.

Daily income 4- 4,500 per day.

Case 2 is a new mini bus so the repayments and insurance are higher.

Case 1 is, as I recall, for an 850,000 Baht minibus and insurance is lower as are the repayments.

Both got 20% deposit for finance.

Both are doing different runs from different areas in BKK and have also known each other from school.

A 3rd person I have known personally for 2 years started off with a small Toyota Hiace doing runs from Phichit to BKK. The bus cost 300,000 and is a 1998. Now they also have a 3 year old VIP version from profits made in the last year.

I am told that the monthly profit from each bus is much lower than the other 2 cases. Profit averaging 15,000 Baht p.m. Yet she is not on the better local runs from BKK and has only been doing them for a few months unlike the other 2 who have been at this a long time.

I will add that, as ever, financial information given in this way is to be taken with a 'pinch of salt'. To me, the 3rd person might be nearer the mark with their monthly profit.

Edited July 22, 2009 by G54

[colino]

Where I lived in Ang Thong The local boss (mafia) of the Mini vans and VIP vans would call a meeting to collect payments and to issue the drivers their lot number for their position in the queue , any new guy just got stuck at the back of the queue.

He also has a guy at Victory making sure everything runs smoothly.

colino

[quiksilva]

We rent VIP buses by the day for transporting clients between sites, the rates are 2000 Baht a day, including the driver (usually does nopt speak English but some do) but exclusive of fuel and tolls.

Some of these are very well appointed too, with what can only be described as comfy padded arm chairs. You are looking to charge double, why would we hire your van? Or are you looking to run bus routes?

[chiangmaibruce]

Look I might be wrong, but in talking about lease repayments etc etc, it looks like you are jumping well ahead of yourself ... Refer Foreign Business Act

(2) Foreigners shall be prohibited from operating any business concerning national safety and security, business affecting art and culture, tradition and folk handicraft or the business affecting natural resources or environment as prescribed in List Two unless permitted by the Minister with the approval of the Cabinet.

LIST TWO

The businesses related to the national safety or security or affecting arts and culture, tradition, folk handicraft or natural resource and environment.

Group 1: The businesses related to the national safety or security

(1) Production, selling, repairing and maintenance of:

a) firearms, ammunition, gun powder, explosives.

Accessories of firearms, ammunition, and explosives.

c) Armaments, ships, air-craft or military vehicles.

d) Equipment or components, all categories of war materials.

(2) Domestic land, waterway or air transportation, including domestic airline business.

Forget about different opinions about whether you need a work permit to own a mini bus. You are talking about operating a transport business, "silent partner" or not. Foreigners can't own a transport business (or a guided tour business or work as a driver) so you are either talking about running this operation below the radar (until someone makes a call) OR finding Thai directors who will own the majority of the shares in their/your business.

Edited July 22, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[G54]

We rent VIP buses by the day for transporting clients between sites, the rates are 2000 Baht a day, including the driver (usually does nopt speak English but some do) but exclusive of fuel and tolls.

Some of these are very well appointed too, with what can only be described as comfy padded arm chairs. You are looking to charge double, why would we hire your van? Or are you looking to run bus routes?

These buses that are running are on set routes each day. Shortish runs of abt 35 km each way, others longer. Paying passengers.

2,000 is cheap for a mini bus per day compared to the local rates some were asking last year. For example a bus for the day to do a 700 Km round trip was 6,000 including fuel and driver.

[G54]

Look I might be wrong, but in talking about lease repayments etc etc, it looks like you are jumping well ahead of yourself ... Refer Foreign Business Act

(2) Foreigners shall be prohibited from operating any business concerning national safety and security, business affecting art and culture, tradition and folk handicraft or the business affecting natural resources or environment as prescribed in List Two unless permitted by the Minister with the approval of the Cabinet.

LIST TWO

The businesses related to the national safety or security or affecting arts and culture, tradition, folk handicraft or natural resource and environment.

Group 1: The businesses related to the national safety or security

(1) Production, selling, repairing and maintenance of:

a) firearms, ammunition, gun powder, explosives.

Accessories of firearms, ammunition, and explosives.

c) Armaments, ships, air-craft or military vehicles.

d) Equipment or components, all categories of war materials.

(2) Domestic land, waterway or air transportation, including domestic airline business.

Forget about different opinions about whether you need a work permit to own a mini bus. You are talking about operating a transport business, "silent partner" or not. Foreigners can't own a transport business (or a guided tour business or work as a driver) so you are either talking about running this operation below the radar (until someone makes a call) OR finding Thai directors who will own the majority of the shares in their/your business.

Surely that refers to National Safety and Security - as in MOD work or similar - not in running a mini bus ?

I do not see anything else in that list that could refer to owning a mini bus and allowing a Thai to run the business. Or maybe I am reading it incorrectly?

[G54]

Where I lived in Ang Thong The local boss (mafia) of the Mini vans and VIP vans would call a meeting to collect payments and to issue the drivers their lot number for their position in the queue , any new guy just got stuck at the back of the queue.

He also has a guy at Victory making sure everything runs smoothly.

colino

I'll be checking also on who runs what. Or at least I will endeavour to do so. And will also take that on board.

At this stage I am asking for opinions and advice to get a better idea of the whole situation, so these responses are welcome.

As I said earlier, I am taking what I am told by the Thai people involved, with a 'pinch of salt' and trying to be careful along the way before coming to any decision.

[p_brownstone]

Consider one very basic question ……. what can you - as a Farang - bring to this “business opportunity”, i.e. what can you contribute to the business that your Thai “friends” do not (or can not) already provide?

If your “friends” are so well connected, if they have an “in” to the local Mafia who control the routes etc. etc. WHY WOULD THEY NEED YOU?

Answer – your money.

Forget all the nonsense questions about Finance, Visas, Driving Licenses, Work Permits etc., you bring NOTHING to the “business” and you will leave with less.

Patrick

[G54]

Consider one very basic question ……. what can you - as a Farang - bring to this "business opportunity", i.e. what can you contribute to the business that your Thai "friends" do not (or can not) already provide?

If your "friends" are so well connected, if they have an "in" to the local Mafia who control the routes etc. etc. WHY WOULD THEY NEED YOU?

Answer – your money.

Forget all the nonsense questions about Finance, Visas, Driving Licenses, Work Permits etc., you bring NOTHING to the "business" and you will leave with less.

Patrick

Well, I would be in 'partnership' with a Thai friend and we would be running this together. This friend has the way into this business but not enough capital to get off the ground.

IF the bus was not a financial success, the bus would be in my name and I would be able to sell it to recoup most of my initial outlay on the deposit.

IF the idea is successful, then the bus would be paying for itself and giving a small income at the end of the day.

I cannot get into this without him and his contacts and he cannot raise enough cash to get started. (same with the woman who begged and borrowed enough to get her first bus for 300k last year, when I backed out, and now she has 2 buses).

What can I lose? An amount of money - a few months insurance, a couple of payments to the bank and a small amount of my deposit if I have to sell the bus on because the idea fails. hel_l, I spend almost that much in the pub and in restaurants over the same period.

Sometimes we have to venture out a little in this world and not be defeatist about everything.

I am trying, with the help and information from Thai friends and also with observations from people here in the forum, to get an idea of what the possibilities are, then I have to determine if it is worth the risk.

Surely it is better to investigate the idea and weigh up the possibilities than to simply sit on my rear end and do nothing / be negative and deny he possible opportunity?

[katabeachbum]

Bus in farang name. takes 10 second to run the plates in any police computer. Comes up with farang name, adress and passportnumber. Thats not a silent partner

[G54]

Well, it seems there is a bus on offer and a route.

I am learning more about this day by day.

The 'route' is paid for. Various amounts from 250K upwards depending on how lucrative the route is. Then the route belongs to that person for as long as they want it. And as for 'tea money'? well. that is what the upfront money is for

This being Thai related, so far, of course. Not sure what would really happen with my name in there somewhere, but I am learning

As to owning the bus and being stopped. I owned a 6 metre 6 wheeler truck and never had any problems with the police, even when I got stopped one night heading to Ayuttayah. Yet I was not supposed to own that truck - according to some.

[katabeachbum]

Well, it seems there is a bus on offer and a route.

I am learning more about this day by day.

The 'route' is paid for. Various amounts from 250K upwards depending on how lucrative the route is. Then the route belongs to that person for as long as they want it. And as for 'tea money'? well. that is what the upfront money is for

This being Thai related, so far, of course. Not sure what would really happen with my name in there somewhere, but I am learning

As to owning the bus and being stopped. I owned a 6 metre 6 wheeler truck and never had any problems with the police, even when I got stopped one night heading to Ayuttayah. Yet I was not supposed to own that truck - according to some.

No problem to own a commercial truck. very hard to prove you have payed transport.

Minibus in your name with 16 paying passangers. Smells expensive.