Deny / Refuse; My Dictionary Translates Both To ปฎิเสธ ?

[bow]

My pocket dictionary translates deny and refuse with the same Thai word, ปฎิเสธ.

This seems strange. These word are quite different, for example: "I refuse to go to school.", " I deny ! I did not steal my friends bike."

Any ideas ?

[harrry]

My pocket dictionary translates deny and refuse with the same Thai word, ปฎิเสธ.

This seems strange. These word are quite different, for example: "I refuse to go to school.", " I deny ! I did not steal my friends bike."

Any ideas ?

It would not be correct in English to say I deny ! You would have to say something like "I deny that. I did not steal the bike."

They are probably using deny in the sense of:

If you do not have the right papers we will deny the visa application.

Edited July 23, 2009 by harrry

[aanon]

ปฏิเสธ for deny in the sense of 'refute' is also correct. Here are some examples from an online source:

He denied that he was involved in that case.= เขาปฏิเสธที่ว่าเขาได้เข้าไปพัวพันในเรื่องนั้น

Santos denied doing anything illegal.= ซานโตปฏิเสธการทำอะไรก็ตามที่ผิดกฎหมาย

อานนท์

[Richard W]

This seems strange. These word are quite different, for example: "I refuse to go to school.", " I deny ! I did not steal my friends bike."

Any ideas ?

There's a similar semantic connection with ยอมรับ 'to admit'. But for ปฎิเสธ (note that it has to patak, not do chada), one could just work with the translation "say 'no'" and its taking as object what is being said 'no' to.

[DavidHouston]

Here is an example from a newspaper article about Phra Viharn Palace:

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน

"There is a tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping [claims]."

"There is a tendency within society to refuse to accept the truth that . . . "

Here, either English word conveys the correct meaning.

[tgeezer]

Here is an example from a newspaper article about Phra Viharn Palace:

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน

"There is a tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping [claims]."

"There is a tendency within society to refuse to accept the truth that . . . "

Here, either English word conveys the correct meaning.

Ha, this reminds me of the definition of ปฏิเสธ in my pupils dictionary: ไม่ยอมรับข้อเท็จจริง only that! I thought that if ข้อเท็จจริง meant what it appeared to mean (fact) ปฏิเสธ is very precise which limits its use. Sure enough, according to Mary Haas 'The fact' seems to be the meaning.

My grammar book says; that an expression of ความปฏิเสธ is made with words like ไม่ ไม่ได้ มิใช่ อย่า หาไม่ etc. simply, an answer to a question or a statement definitely a denial, but surely not of a fact.

I looked up 'fact' in English and found it also was a 'thing assumed as a basis for inference' not so incontrovertable as I have generally used it.

So if you are asked if you are asked or accused ปฏิเสธ covers both denial and refusal.

All this leads me to advise the original poster never to trust such definitions from English to Thai and use it as a basis for speaking. The above example from David where it was found by the writer necessary to write both the word and the definition shows that it cannot be done.

[Richard W]

Here is an example from a newspaper article about Phra Viharn Palace:

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน

"There is a tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping [claims]."

"There is a tendency within society to refuse to accept the truth that . . . "

Here, either English word conveys the correct meaning.

Ha, this reminds me of the definition of ปฏิเสธ in my pupils dictionary: ไม่ยอมรับข้อเท็จจริง only that! I thought that if ข้อเท็จจริง meant what it appeared to mean (fact) ปฏิเสธ is very precise which limits its use. Sure enough, according to Mary Haas 'The fact' seems to be the meaning.

My grammar book says; that an expression of ความปฏิเสธ is made with words like ไม่ ไม่ได้ มิใช่ อย่า หาไม่ etc. simply, an answer to a question or a statement definitely a denial, but surely not of a fact.

I looked up 'fact' in English and found it also was a 'thing assumed as a basis for inference' not so incontrovertable as I have generally used it.

So if you are asked if you are asked or accused ปฏิเสธ covers both denial and refusal.

All this leads me to advise the original poster never to trust such definitions from English to Thai and use it as a basis for speaking. The above example from David where it was found by the writer necessary to write both the word and the definition shows that it cannot be done.

Your post leaves me confused.

In David's example, I suggest that we have the apparent duplication ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริง to state that what is being denied is in fact true. I also cannot work out whether you are challenging the meaning of refusal as refusing permission. Presumably the หาไม่ covers uncontentious statements such as reporting the failure to find something that has gone missing.

[tgeezer]

Here is an example from a newspaper article about Phra Viharn Palace:

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน

"There is a tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping [claims]."

"There is a tendency within society to refuse to accept the truth that . . . "

Here, either English word conveys the correct meaning.

Ha, this reminds me of the definition of ปฏิเสธ in my pupils dictionary: ไม่ยอมรับข้อเท็จจริง only that! I thought that if ข้อเท็จจริง meant what it appeared to mean (fact) ปฏิเสธ is very precise which limits its use. Sure enough, according to Mary Haas 'The fact' seems to be the meaning.

My grammar book says; that an expression of ความปฏิเสธ is made with words like ไม่ ไม่ได้ มิใช่ อย่า หาไม่ etc. simply, an answer to a question or a statement definitely a denial, but surely not of a fact.

I looked up 'fact' in English and found it also was a 'thing assumed as a basis for inference' not so incontrovertable as I have generally used it.

So if you are asked if you are asked or accused ปฏิเสธ covers both denial and refusal.

All this leads me to advise the original poster never to trust such definitions from English to Thai and use it as a basis for speaking. The above example from David where it was found by the writer necessary to write both the word and the definition shows that it cannot be done.

Your post leaves me confused.

In David's example, I suggest that we have the apparent duplication ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริง to state that what is being denied is in fact true. I also cannot work out whether you are challenging the meaning of refusal as refusing permission. Presumably the หาไม่ covers uncontentious statements such as reporting the failure to find something that has gone missing.

My post was an attempt to explain for the poster why the 'pocket dictionary' might say that the word ปฏิเสธ can be both deny and refuse. I didn't achieve it because the answer should probably have been that not all dictionaries are good, in suport of this I was taking issue with Mary Haas' use of the word fact as a translation of ความเท็จจริง which means stories both true and false.

In David's example I have the luxury of not needing to put it in English so for me apart from a negative feeling which it gives ปฏิเสธ is redundant, I might miss a nuance but good enough for me.

หาไม่ and หามิได้ are in the dictionary as both adjectives and conjunction meaning 'not so' or whatever you understand by เปล่า ไม่เป็นดังนั้น มิฉะนั้น ไม่เช่นนั้น as I said a way of showing ความปฏิเสธ

Out of curiosity I have just looked up หาไม่ and 'she' translates it as 'otherwise' so we agree there, interestingly she has หา......ไม่ which I suppose would be a conjunction and one of those 'fixed constructions' which we look for.

Edited July 26, 2009 by tgeezer

[DavidHouston]

"กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า . . . "

My take is that "ปฏิเสธ" and "ไม่ยอมรับ" are examples of redundancy for emphasis, a Thai manner of expression which is fairly common in Thai writing. In English we can say "to deny the truth that . . ." and eschew emphasis for conciseness of expression.

Edited July 26, 2009 by DavidHouston

[tgeezer]

"กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า . . . "

My take is that "ปฏิเสธ" and "ไม่ยอมรับ" are examples of redundancy for emphasis, a Thai manner of expression which is fairly common in Thai writing. In English we can say "to deny the truth that . . ." and eschew emphasis for conciseness of expression.

I have to defer to you, on translation. I don't understand 'eshew emphasis for conciseness of expression' though.

I can find the meanings and try to get the syntax using the basic grammar which I have, but can do no more than get the gist of anything and often find myself accepting a translation as probaly right.

Would you take issue with this; The mood in the county is to not accept the fact that the land around the temple is disputed.

[DavidHouston]

The mood in the county is to not accept the fact that the land around the temple is disputed.

Sounds good to me.

[aanon]

Here is an example from a newspaper article about Phra Viharn Palace:

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน

"There is a tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping [claims]."

David, your word choices are all good but the quote is only part of a sentence, as indicated by the first ที่. So, adapting your sentence, we get:

"The tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping claims..."

[DavidHouston]

Here is an example from a newspaper article about Phra Viharn Palace:

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน

"There is a tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping [claims]."

David, your word choices are all good but the quote is only part of a sentence, as indicated by the first ที่. So, adapting your sentence, we get:

"The tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping claims..."

Khun Anan,

I understand; I was illustrating the meaning of the word “ปฏิเสธ” using only a portion of the full sentence. The full sentence, and an English rendering would be as follows:

_______________________

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน ส่งผลในทางจิตวิทยาให้การเจรจาเพื่อยุติข้อพิพาทอย่างสันติยากยิ่งขึ้น เพราะรัฐบาลไทยต้องพยายามแสดงให้สังคมเห็นว่า ตนไม่ได้อ่อนข้อให้กับอีกฝ่าย

The trend in society to deny the truth that the land surrounding the temple is in dispute has a psychological effect on the negotiations and makes the attempt to settle the dispute peacefully much more difficult. The Thai government needs to try to help its people understand that it will not capitulate to the other side.

_________________________

What do you think?

[aanon]

Here is an example from a newspaper article about Phra Viharn Palace:

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน

"There is a tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping [claims]."

David, your word choices are all good but the quote is only part of a sentence, as indicated by the first ที่. So, adapting your sentence, we get:

"The tendency within society to deny the truth that the land around the palace is subject to overlapping claims..."

Khun Anan,

I understand; I was illustrating the meaning of the word "ปฏิเสธ" using only a portion of the full sentence. The full sentence, and an English rendering would be as follows:

_______________________

กระแสสังคมที่ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน ส่งผลในทางจิตวิทยาให้การเจรจาเพื่อยุติข้อพิพาทอย่างสันติยากยิ่งขึ้น เพราะรัฐบาลไทยต้องพยายามแสดงให้สังคมเห็นว่า ตนไม่ได้อ่อนข้อให้กับอีกฝ่าย

The trend in society to deny the truth that the land surrounding the temple is in dispute has a psychological effect on the negotiations and makes the attempt to settle the dispute peacefully much more difficult. The Thai government needs to try to help its people understand that it will not capitulate to the other side.

_________________________

What do you think?

Well, one of these days you are going to tell me to stop being so pedantic. But anyway...

* the ยากยิ่งขึ้น attaches to การเจรจา

* you need to keep the linking word [เพราะ] to make sense of the sentence

* the แสดงให้สังคมเห็น part is not about helping the people; rather, it's about the government having to appear a certain way

อานนท์

[tgeezer]

_______________________

กระแสสังคม ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน กระแสสังตม ส่งผลในทางจิตวิทยาให้การเจรจาเพื่อยุติข้อพิพาทอย่างสันติยากยิ่งขึ้น เพราะ รัฐบาลไทย ต้องพยายามแสดงให้สังคมเห็นว่า ตนไม่ได้อ่อนข้อให้กับอีกฝ่าย

Anyone have a different view than this? Two sentences with the subject กระแสสังคม and the conjunction or pronoun ที่ and the third with the subject รัฐบาลไทย joined with the conjunction เพราะ

Society, who refuses to acknowledge the fact that the land is disputed, creates an atmosphere which makes negotiations for a peaceful settlement of the matter very difficult because the Thai government has to try to show that it is not making concessions to the other side.

[aanon]

_______________________

กระแสสังคม ปฏิเสธไม่ยอมรับความจริงว่า พื้นที่รอบตัวปราสาทคือ พื้นที่ทับซ้อน กระแสสังตม ส่งผลในทางจิตวิทยาให้การเจรจาเพื่อยุติข้อพิพาทอย่างสันติยากยิ่งขึ้น เพราะ รัฐบาลไทย ต้องพยายามแสดงให้สังคมเห็นว่า ตนไม่ได้อ่อนข้อให้กับอีกฝ่าย

Anyone have a different view than this? Two sentences with the subject กระแสสังคม and the conjunction or pronoun ที่ and the third with the subject รัฐบาลไทย joined with the conjunction เพราะ

Society, who refuses to acknowledge the fact that the land is disputed, creates an atmosphere which makes negotiations for a peaceful settlement of the matter very difficult because the Thai government has to try to show that it is not making concessions to the other side.

Your translation is good, tgeezer. It makes the argument quite clear. Domestic political considerations severely limit the Thai govt's options in the talks.

aanon

ps. Perhaps make "society's refusal" the first subject to more closely match the original?

[DavidHouston]

Thank you both for your explanation. I now understand how the final clause relates to the prior two and the use of the conjunction "เพราะ". I was incorrectly reading "เพราะ" as "เพราะฉะนั้น"

I very much appreciate your analysis and efforts.

Edited July 27, 2009 by DavidHouston