The Third Sex

[Rumfoord]

katoey or how the term is used means: 'men' (born man) who lack masculinity and don't meet the requirements of the gender role concept how 'real' man should be. (take a woman and reproduce, have offspring) or 'men' who don't practice the activity of penetrate others but take the passive role and got penetrated by other 'men'.

Katoey is either a transvestite or transsexual depending on whether they've had medical intervention. Men who are penetrated by other men are 'gay queens'. Men who penetrate other men are 'gay kings'.

Katoey is a word of the thai language. it is a word that doesn't makes a clear destinction between gays and that what you call "transvestite or transsexual"

a transsexual 'Kathoey' could insist in the same manner, please don't call me Kathoey i am a woman of a second variation. Kathoeys are soft boy gay male.

it's a cultural thing and a social construct. based on language that determines how you see and interpret the world, language shapes your thoughts.

some language have 37 different words for snow, some languages dosn't have a word for certain colours. they don't destinct beween blue and green for example.

and the thai language has a word that doesn't make a strict difference between unmasculine gays, transvestites, transgender and transsexual persons. that word is Kathoey. or in other words the term Kathoey describes the absense of masculinity.

and translation between different languages, different ways of thoughts, is always interpretation. take the example of that language that doesn't have seperate words for blue and green colour. they will not see a difference and you can not explain it to them.

the meaning of words can also change with the time. the intake of the english loanword could have an impact on the usage of the word Kathoey. and i guess it allready has. shifting the meaning more forwards to the trans group.

in thai language 'gay queens' could be called Kathoey.

'gay queens' and 'gay kings' aren't natural biological given entities but more or less contemporary constructs of a society/culture here and now. and that is merely a mirror and copycat of the classic or traditional gender role models man and woman. gender and gender roles are social construction, creations of a particular group of people, of a society and the cultural norms these groups have developed.

i sense a trace of transgender phobia here in the way how western socialised white gay men want to distance them-selves from what is also know as Kathoey.

[PeaceBlondie]

I know that but heterosexuality is a manly trait because men want to reproduce so if you are gay then you do not show the same interest in reproducing.

I'm gay. I wanted to marry and reproduce because Western society gave me no real alternative. I caused 9 (nine) pregnancies. Do real nen cause 50 pregnancies?

Rumford accurately wrote "I sense a trace of transgender phobia here in the way how western socialised white gay men want to distance them-selves from what is also know as Kathoey." Yes. I had several 11 and 12-year old boy students in Lamphun province, and several older teenage boy students (one who wore a girl's uniform to school and was pre-op). When another teacher (a macho Aussie whose father was openly gay) and I checked with each obviously gay young Thai gay, the student self-identified as katoey.

Yet the role these teenagers modeled was a caricature of a Thai female - an exaggeration by voice, ending Thai sentences ka or jao, swiveling their hips, etc. As seen in that video clip "Future Lady Boys?". We westernised gay men who are not very queeny, do distance ourselves from such excessive feminine acting out.

[scorecard]

QUOTE:

".....There are so many ladyboys in Thailand, because and foremost of the conservative educational system re moral issues here, and secondary of the monetary circumstances, meaning, to work with foreigners in the night scene. ...."

1. "There are so many ladyboys in Thailand, because and foremost of the conservative educational system re moral issues here....."

Sorry but I can't see a point in your comment. Would the poster like to please explain what he/she means.

2. "....and secondary of the monetary circumstances, meaning, to work with foreigners in the night scene". I take this to mean that a very large percentage of ladyboys work in the night scene with foreigners. I personally object to this comment which is quite incorrect and quite disrespectful to ladyboys.

Why is it that some posters here believe that everything in Thailand has connection to 'the night scene'? The truth is that a very very small % of ladyboys are involved in any way in entertaiment / or the night scene. The poster should look more broadly at all of Thailand, and get things into a more realistic and more accurate perspective.

As one small example, at my university (and the same in all universities) there are many ladyboys, some in female attire, some not. They are well accepted by the whole student body and the faculty, they are all well behaved and not loud. Many come from wealthy familes, many don't. I have several ladyboys in my classes, and their levels of hard work and results are the same profile as any other students. As I think about it more, in fact every ladyboy in my classes turns in all assignments, on time, and none turn in crap work.

[sokal]

I know that but heterosexuality is a manly trait because men want to reproduce so if you are gay then you do not show the same interest in reproducing.

I'm gay. I wanted to marry and reproduce because Western society gave me no real alternative. I caused 9 (nine) pregnancies. Do real nen cause 50 pregnancies?

Rumford accurately wrote "I sense a trace of transgender phobia here in the way how western socialised white gay men want to distance them-selves from what is also know as Kathoey." Yes. I had several 11 and 12-year old boy students in Lamphun province, and several older teenage boy students (one who wore a girl's uniform to school and was pre-op). When another teacher (a macho Aussie whose father was openly gay) and I checked with each obviously gay young Thai gay, the student self-identified as katoey.

Yet the role these teenagers modeled was a caricature of a Thai female - an exaggeration by voice, ending Thai sentences ka or jao, swiveling their hips, etc. As seen in that video clip "Future Lady Boys?". We westernised gay men who are not very queeny, do distance ourselves from such excessive feminine acting out.

I do not and will never believe that you caused 9 pregnancies so don't waste your time trying to prove it. The large majority of people are heterosexual all over the world so it is obviously more heterosexual oriented. That is the way it will always be.

When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.) Those are all reproductive features that I felt attracted to even when I was a kid and I had no idea why. I am guessing that a gay person does not have the same attractions because men have none of these features.

[mmushr00m]

Was set upon by a Ladyboy lastnight.

Absolutely lovely creature, looked like Nong Poy. If i was a newbie in LOS I wouldve been fooled but fortunately I have been in LOS long enough to know that real girls usually do not grab hold of your tender bits in public.

[scottyd]

Was set upon by a Ladyboy lastnight.

Absolutely lovely creature, looked like Nong Poy. If i was a newbie in LOS I wouldve been fooled but fortunately I have been in LOS long enough to know that real girls usually do not grab hold of your tender bits in public.

How did you find out it was a ladyboy? Did you repay the favour?

[mmushr00m]

The voice mate, the voice.

That and everyone was staring and the stares have that "does he know?" look.

555555+ either that or Im just plain para. If a stunning looking woman has that much interest in me, something must be very wrong!!!!!

[raro]

Katoey is a word of the thai language. it is a word that doesn't makes a clear destinction between gays and that what you call "transvestite or transsexual"

Did you consider the possibility that most Thais don't get it right either? Kathoey defines a transgender and for the average Thai, gay and transgender is samesame. Just as it is samesame for some of the posters in here. They are unfortunately mistaken.

I'd like to add another opinion of a Turkish guy living in Germany that puts it plain an simple (but not necessarily correct):

If you penetrate, you're male, if you get penetrated, you're female. Doesn't matter of with gender you are.

[PeaceBlondie]

I do not and will never believe that you caused 9 pregnancies so don't waste your time trying to prove it. The large majority of people are heterosexual all over the world so it is obviously more heterosexual oriented. That is the way it will always be.

When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.) .....I am guessing that a gay person does not have the same attractions because men have none of these features.

Your posts show that you are blind and refuse to know the truth. I will not post the proof, but six pregnancies resulted in live births. You show you are ignorant. Have a nice day.

[MrHammer]

So much talk about men in womens clothes

[sokal]

I do not and will never believe that you caused 9 pregnancies so don't waste your time trying to prove it. The large majority of people are heterosexual all over the world so it is obviously more heterosexual oriented. That is the way it will always be.

When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.) .....I am guessing that a gay person does not have the same attractions because men have none of these features.

Your posts show that you are blind and refuse to know the truth. I will not post the proof, but six pregnancies resulted in live births. You show you are ignorant. Have a nice day.

I like the Thai definition, any male that is not a heterosexual is lacking masculinity, nothing demeaning about it, its just the way it is.

I also think that it makes logical sense that a gay guy is a woman in a mans body so it is more practical to be a ladyboy if you are a male that is attracted to men. A ladyboy gets alot more attention from men then a gay person. I know a heterosexual guy that married a ladyboy.

[hhgz]

"When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a

development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.)"

Yes, we know, and it's a very disturbing visual. How do you feel when you look lasciviously at a male?

[PeaceBlondie]

OK, speaking of round hips, development of the chest - is a 40D developed enough? Here's the photos: gay man with 6 kids, etc. Think bi-sexual if that helps.

[scottyd]

"When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a

development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.)"

Yes, we know, and it's a very disturbing visual. How do you feel when you look lasciviously at a male?

I have cracked many a one off to ladyboys, I just didn't happen to know at the time. My feelings on this? If it is attractive, it is attractive, and a nut is a nut.

[LaoPo]

I do not and will never believe that you caused 9 pregnancies so don't waste your time trying to prove it. The large majority of people are heterosexual all over the world so it is obviously more heterosexual oriented. That is the way it will always be.

When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.) .....I am guessing that a gay person does not have the same attractions because men have none of these features.

Your posts show that you are blind and refuse to know the truth. I will not post the proof, but six pregnancies resulted in live births. You show you are ignorant. Have a nice day.

Every time a thread's running on Thaivisa about katoeys/transgenders and/or people who are different than the normal day-to-day people in the world I'm surprised, over and over again, that there are so many ignorant people.

Being ignorant is nothing wrong with since no one possesses the ultimate wisdom ie -knowing everything-; but what surprises me is that some ignorant people are not taking the time to study and educate themselves a bit if they're not so well informed about a certain issue.

In this case katoeys/transgenders.

Yesterday I hesitated to join a comment by one of the Mods but I didn't.

It jumped my mind that there's even a more complicated human being, apart from katoeys/transgenders, bisexual people, gay, lesbians.....you name them:

Hermaphodrites

At the stunning Archeology Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

It needs study and an open mind to try and accept that there are human beings on this world who were born in a way and body they didn't ask for. If they are or feel different, who are we to judge ?

If I read that there are people calling transvestites, katoeys, show that they are ignorant.

A transvestite is a human being who dresses in clothes of the opposite sex; he or she (!) likes to so for various reasons; Transvestites can be either heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or even asexual.

A katoey/transgender is completely different from a transvestite.

LaoPo

[sokal]

OK, speaking of round hips, development of the chest - is a 40D developed enough? Here's the photos: gay man with 6 kids, etc. Think bi-sexual if that helps.

You said your only reason you had kids was because that was the only option you thought society gave you.(a majority heterosexual society)

You are not naturally attracted to fertile females as a heterosexual alpha males because if you were, you would not be gay. Men have no hips, no breasts and no fertile features, none.

[endure]

It's really entertaining (but also quite depressing) watching the Binary Boys trying to stuff the whole of human sexuality into two boxes labelled 'Men' and 'Women'

[sokal]

"When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a

development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.)"

Yes, we know, and it's a very disturbing visual. How do you feel when you look lasciviously at a male?

Your question makes no sense. I am not a homosexual.

[sokal]

It's really entertaining (but also quite depressing) watching the Binary Boys trying to stuff the whole of human sexuality into two boxes labelled 'Men' and 'Women'

You mean homosexual and heterosexual ? This discussion is not allot different then comparing the difference between night and day or black and white.

[scorecard]

thai visa doesnt have a 3rd gender. just male/female

So where does it say that Thaivisa is male and female?

Is it in the rules? Where?

What's your basis for saying this?

[Harcourt]

"When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a

development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.)"

Yes, we know, and it's a very disturbing visual. How do you feel when you look lasciviously at a male?

Your question makes no sense. I am not a homosexual.

It's been clinically shown that latent homosexuality often appears as homophobia or some other form of denial. This is all subconscious so you probably won't realise your preference unless you become very deeply self-analytical.

Most people here won't mind or think any different of you if you came out....so go on.....come out of the closet and feel better about yourself, or go and find an attractive LB for an experience made by someone who knows exactly how your tackle works.

[Brigante7]

OK, speaking of round hips, development of the chest - is a 40D developed enough? Here's the photos: gay man with 6 kids, etc. Think bi-sexual if that helps.

You've got me confused (I know I know, it's easily done) What's the connection between the 2 photo's?

Brigante7.

[sokal]

"When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a

development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.)"

Yes, we know, and it's a very disturbing visual. How do you feel when you look lasciviously at a male?

Your question makes no sense. I am not a homosexual.

It's been clinically shown that latent homosexuality often appears as homophobia or some other form of denial. This is all subconscious so you probably won't realise your preference unless you become very deeply self-analytical.

Most people here won't mind or think any different of you if you came out....so go on.....come out of the closet and feel better about yourself, or go and find an attractive LB for an experience made by someone who knows exactly how your tackle works.

When homosexuals have their parades , are they just flaunting it because they are in denial that they are strait ???

I am not a homophobe, I am just offended when a homosexual thinks they understand what it is like to be a heterosexual alpha male when evidently they don't have a clue.

You are just another person that thinks its wrong to be proud of your heterosexual orientation but you let homosexuals flaunt it all day long.

[LaoPo]

OK, speaking of round hips, development of the chest - is a 40D developed enough? Here's the photos: gay man with 6 kids, etc. Think bi-sexual if that helps.

You've got me confused (I know I know, it's easily done) What's the connection between the 2 photo's?

Brigante7.

As far as I can see: same 6 children; top-photo with father, bottom-photo with mother.

Correct PB ?

LaoPo

[Birdman]

OK, speaking of round hips, development of the chest - is a 40D developed enough? Here's the photos: gay man with 6 kids, etc. Think bi-sexual if that helps.

You've got me confused (I know I know, it's easily done) What's the connection between the 2 photo's?

Brigante7.

As far as I can see: same 6 children; top-photo with father, bottom-photo with mother.

Correct PB ?

LaoPo

Looks like, that the guy on the upper photo had to sell his library to finance his sex change.

[Rumfoord]

Katoey is a word of the thai language. it is a word that doesn't makes a clear destinction between gays and that what you call "transvestite or transsexual"

Did you consider the possibility that most Thais don't get it right either? Kathoey defines a transgender and for the average Thai, gay and transgender is samesame. Just as it is samesame for some of the posters in here. They are unfortunately mistaken.

I'd like to add another opinion of a Turkish guy living in Germany that puts it plain an simple (but not necessarily correct):

If you penetrate, you're male, if you get penetrated, you're female. Doesn't matter of with gender you are.

No that is not a case of that the most Thaïs don't get it right.

first categories like transgender, transsexual or transvestite or a category like 'gay' aren't universal categories, valid and existent in all different societies, cultures around the globe and through the history whenever or wherever human beings came together and form a group. Those are social constructs ‘invented’ or 'created' by the participants of a culture or society. Gender concepts vary from society to society. Therefore, there is not a universal correctness and rightness.

Transvestism or cross-dressing for example can only exist in societies that have different clothings for the opposite sex and different role concepts how "man" or "woman" should act and what they should wear. Categories for sexual orientation like heterosexual, gay or lesbian are generated in the moment the society thinks that would be significant and important at all, like in the Abrahamic religions. In Sodom and Gomorrah nobody gave a **** about this.

Home erotic relationships in Ancient Greece have very little in common with todays postmodern emancipated gay community.

The Thai language knows also terms to differentiate between gay, homosexual and transgender people, there are words for a couple of subcategories to describe gender roles, gender identities and sexual orientation. The average Thai knows that it is not samesame, but the difference is not seen as so important that a term like kathoey is seen as totally wrong.

Don’t look at the word as some pejorative term uttered by total ignorant straighties with a phobia. It is also NOT a case that transgender persons are mistaken for gays or the other way around.

Take it as it is. Katoey doesn't define exclusively trans... persons or kathoey means only "ladyboys". That is an insufficient translation, misinterpretation.

Don’t try a redefinition based on your western concept of how it should be "right".

Kathoey just means "not man", "lack of masculinity" or "unmanly". And so it's also used for gay man, who act more soft and gentle, somewhat "feminine". Macho gays, beer belly bears or freddy mercury wouldn't be called Kathoey.

Think of it as somekind of umbrella term that hasn’t a exactly expression in English language. It's also not a scientific term and because it's 'definition is blurred shouldn't be used synonymous or along with terms of the western gender or queer theories.

-----

thanks for sharing the opinion of the Turkish guy living in Germany.

i want to vary it a little bit (but not necessarily p. correct):

1.If you penetrate, you're male, regardless what gender, origin, class, family, genus, body plan , metabolism you penetrate

2. If balls aren't touching, it's not gay.

-----

Some member sport here an argumentation with a strictly biological point of view and focus on the physical/genetic sex. and don't waste so much time with social gender roles. They are not totally wrong, but actually quite right. Unfortunately, the biological model isn't so productive to describe the phenomenon "third gender" or "ladyboy" or trangender. An empirical study with a biological approach will come to the conclusion ladyboys or transsexual M2F persons are genetic xy males. However they got dressed up or dressed up them selves, no matter how they grew up, that doesn't have an impact on the genes. That is right. But we will not get much further results with that approach.

the "biologist " got bashed and insulted by self declared 'open minded' participants. they claim to have more sophisticated knowledge and operate with arguments that resembles sociological theories, feminist constructivist thinking and gender studies. That is much more complicated and several small mistakes are made. nvm.

The funny part is that they do not grasp that way of thoughts to the full extension and forget to consider that it is only a model, still a simplified abstraction of a much more complex process, a constructivist interpretation. Their own version, more simplified and unscholarly, they call the truth and reality.

[PeaceBlondie]

It's really entertaining (but also quite depressing) watching the Binary Boys trying to stuff the whole of human sexuality into two boxes labelled 'Men' and 'Women'

You mean homosexual and heterosexual ? This discussion is not allot different then comparing the difference between night and day or black and white.

Sometimes, sokal, you almost begin to post non-ignorantly. We're stating a known fact: that some men who have only a penis and a flat chest are attracted to and mate with BOTH genders. I found it easy enough to enjoy about 5000 orgasms inside a vagina, touching my wife's breasts and hips, etc. All the while I knew I also wanted to have sex with men. For about ten years, I functioned as a bisexual, alternating between genders. I knew many Hispanics who function as bi but swear they're only macho males who penetrate holes. Gender is almost always obvious naked. Preferences span the full spectrum.

Back to Thailand's 3rd gender: Thais don't agree what it means in Thai. Neither do we farang. That level of 'mai kojai' is mai bpen rai. Have a nice day.

[PeaceBlondie]

My 2 old photos were after 1985 divorce. Six kids (oldest boy missing in first photo; grandson present). Several straight TV posters who've seen the rest of my family photos can verify it's me.

Added: most Western gay/bisexual men of the Brokeback Mountaim generation and earlier functioned for years with a woman.

[sokal]

It's really entertaining (but also quite depressing) watching the Binary Boys trying to stuff the whole of human sexuality into two boxes labelled 'Men' and 'Women'

You mean homosexual and heterosexual ? This discussion is not allot different then comparing the difference between night and day or black and white.

Sometimes, sokal, you almost begin to post non-ignorantly. We're stating a known fact: that some men who have only a penis and a flat chest are attracted to and mate with BOTH genders. I found it easy enough to enjoy about 5000 orgasms inside a vagina, touching my wife's breasts and hips, etc. All the while I knew I also wanted to have sex with men. For about ten years, I functioned as a bisexual, alternating between genders. I knew many Hispanics who function as bi but swear they're only macho males who penetrate holes. Gender is almost always obvious naked. Preferences span the full spectrum.

Back to Thailand's 3rd gender: Thais don't agree what it means in Thai. Neither do we farang. That level of 'mai kojai' is mai bpen rai. Have a nice day.

You said it, not me. You specifically said that western society gave you no choice but to be strait so that is why you where involved with females. It sounds like your heterosexual ventures were for reasons other then pure natural attraction.

If you find men attractive then there is no way that you find females attractive in the same biological way as a heterosexual alpha male does. If you did then you would not be gay.

Edited September 6, 2009 by sokal

[Harcourt]

"When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a

development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.)"

Yes, we know, and it's a very disturbing visual. How do you feel when you look lasciviously at a male?

Your question makes no sense. I am not a homosexual.

It's been clinically shown that latent homosexuality often appears as homophobia or some other form of denial. This is all subconscious so you probably won't realise your preference unless you become very deeply self-analytical.

Most people here won't mind or think any different of you if you came out....so go on.....come out of the closet and feel better about yourself, or go and find an attractive LB for an experience made by someone who knows exactly how your tackle works.

When homosexuals have their parades , are they just flaunting it because they are in denial that they are strait ???

I am not a homophobe, I am just offended when a homosexual thinks they understand what it is like to be a heterosexual alpha male when evidently they don't have a clue.

You are just another person that thinks its wrong to be proud of your heterosexual orientation but you let homosexuals flaunt it all day long.

Nothing wrong with being proud of yourself. I suspect gays have their parades because they have been suppressed for so long that now that they can be open about it they show it....eventually, there will be no need for "Gay Pride" as the generations become more accepting.

Is body-building a flaunting of masculinity?

You talk about alpha males. Are beta males less masculime, lesser men? If so, where do they fit into the black and white, penis for penetration scenario?

When you think about that, consider the "shades of grey" theory.

Where does maleness end and femininity begin?

Did you know that the more sons a woman has, the more testosterone affects her system as there is some passover of the hormone from the foetus. Does this make the mother of many sons, who has a moustache forming and a squarer jaw as she gets older any less of a woman?