The Gething Reader

[SoftWater]

A space for questions and answers for those improving their Thai with Thomas Gething's 'Thai Basic Reader' (revised edition, 1992).

The source texts and audio are available free at

http://siamwestdc.com/thaireader-UH/index.htm

If you posted a question about this on another thread earlier, it would be nice if you could include a link on this page (or ask the mod to move your post to here? Thanks)

I'll kick us off with a question from Chapter 24 that I've been banging my head on a wall about.

In this story 'John' and his Thai landlady คุณป้า have gone to buy some furniture. And then we get these lines:

จอห์นไม่ยอมให้คุณป้าออกสตางค์ เขาชอบโต๊ะทำงานตัวนั้นมาก และคิดจะเอากลับอเมริกาด้วย

เพราะทุนเขาจะออกค่าส่งให้

I have problems with both the first and last part of this, both of which involve the word ออก but apparently in different senses.

Would it be right to read the first clause as 'John won't let khun Ba pay? Is ออก functioning as a verb to give something like 'John won't let his landlady get her money out'? (a very British idiom, but fits the Thai almost word for word).

The last clause is also perplexing me. I'm using the context to guess something like

...and thinks he will take it (the work desk) back to America because its expensive.

I can't get the meaning of ทุนเขาจะออกค่าส่งให้ at all - does 'ออก belong to ทุน or ค่า?

เรื่องนี้นะ ผมคิดไม่ออก!!

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edited August 10, 2009 by SoftWater

[kriswillems]

ออกเงิน = to pay

ค่าส่ง = delivery cost

Here's a bad (word by word) translation: her investment will pay the delivery cost (for her = ให้)

[yoot]

เพราะทุนเขาจะออกค่าส่งให้

ทุน in this context refers to "scholarship".

The delivery cost is included in his scholarship.

John wants to buy this desk by himself because he wants to bring it back to American because the delivery cost will be pay by his scholarship.

[tgeezer]

A space for questions and answers for those improving their Thai with Thomas Gething's 'Thai Basic Reader' (revised edition, 1992).

The source texts and audio are available free at

http://siamwestdc.com/thaireader-UH/index.htm

If you posted a question about this on another thread earlier, it would be nice if you could include a link on this page (or ask the mod to move your post to here? Thanks)

I'll kick us off with a question from Chapter 24 that I've been banging my head on a wall about.

In this story 'John' and his Thai landlady คุณป้า have gone to buy some furniture. And then we get these lines:

จอห์นไม่ยอมให้คุณป้าออกสตางค์ เขาชอบโต๊ะทำงานตัวนั้นมาก และคิดจะเอากลับอเมริกาด้วย

เพราะทุนเขาจะออกค่าส่งให้

I have problems with both the first and last part of this, both of which involve the word ออก but apparently in different senses.

Would it be right to read the first clause as 'John won't let khun Ba pay? Is ออก functioning as a verb to give something like 'John won't let his landlady get her money out'? (a very British idiom, but fits the Thai almost word for word).

The last clause is also perplexing me. I'm using the context to guess something like

...and thinks he will take it (the work desk) back to America because its expensive.

I can't get the meaning of ทุนเขาจะออกค่าส่งให้ at all - does 'ออก belong to ทุน or ค่า?

เรื่องนี้นะ ผมคิดไม่ออก!!

Thanks in advance for any help.

I think that:

The part which you don't get would would probably need further discussion starting from the fact that John is the subject of this piece so ทุนเขา probably means his money จะออก....ให้ is the verb ค่าส่ง is the shipping cost. What it means exactly is another matter but the gist is: he wont let the landlady pay; he likes the work table so much; and thinks that he will take it home Maybe it should be เพราะเป็นทุน เขาจะ... at least then no problem with ออก but then again เพราะทุนเขา could mean because it would be his investment; he will pay to have it shipped. Let the discussion commence, does anybody find it clear?

[Groongthep]

Would it be right to read the first clause as 'John won't let khun Ba pay? Is ออก functioning as a verb to give something like 'John won't let his landlady get her money out'? (a very British idiom, but fits the Thai almost word for word).

The last clause is also perplexing me. I'm using the context to guess something like

I can't get the meaning of ทุนเขาจะออกค่าส่งให้ at all - does 'ออก belong to ทุน or ค่า?

ออกเงิน = to pay

Yes, ออกเงิน and earlier in the passage ออกสตางค์ mean to pay or literally pay-out. If I am correct (maybe khun yoot can elaborate), in everyday colloquial speech when it is already understood that you're speaking about money or paying, the เงิน or สตางค์ can be omitted.

For example, you are sitting around a table with several friends having just finished eating. The bill comes and another person reaches for their wallet. You know it's your turn to pay and say simply ไม่เป็นไรผมจะออก "Never mind I'll pay" or "Don't worry about it. I've got it" to use American lingo. In this case using just ออก sounds more natural than saying the full ผมจะออกเงิน and is more informal than using จ่าย.

[tgeezer]

Thanks Yoot not much discussion there, I don't think I would have got it even if I knew that he was a student. Is it เงินทุนการศึกษา ?

[SoftWater]

เพราะทุนเขาจะออกค่าส่งให้

ทุน in this context refers to "scholarship".

The delivery cost is included in his scholarship.

John wants to buy this desk by himself because he wants to bring it back to American because the delivery cost will be pay by his scholarship.

Yes, Yoot has nailed it. For those who don't know the context, we are told that John (back in chapter 1 & 2 of the reader) has a scholarship to study Thai history. Even knowing this, I still kept trying to read ทุน as 'investment'. (doh!) There is also an unstated possessive 'ของ' between the nouns ทุน and เขา which I failed to recognise, so I couldn't figure the relationship between these two words either.

However, even had I remembered both these points, I'd probably never have got this, partly because I wasn't familiar with this use of ออก, and partly because I wouldn't think it made sense that his scholarship would pay shipping costs (sounds like a very generous scholarship! Where can I get one?!).

This is an interesting lesson for me, as it also highlights how one's assumptions affect your ability to make appropriate guesses (notice how I could guess the meaning of ออก in the first clause, but not in the last, even though the use is the same).

Anyway, it's crystal clear now. Many thanks to Yoot and everyone else.

Edited August 11, 2009 by SoftWater

[tgeezer]

Anyway, it's crystal clear now. Many thanks to Yoot and everyone else.

Another way of putting it is, taken literally the direction is all wrong: an investment is made and kept it can't pay for anything until it is capitlized. The big question is how do you say his investment? if the answer is ทุนของเขา then we shouldn't beat ourselves up for not getting it.

[kokesaat]

In lesson #4, John was searching for a rental. The prospective landlady quoted a price and asked if the quote was too expensive.

John replied, "ไม่แพงเกินไปครับ ขอบคุณ ผมเป็นนักเรียนทุน เขาจ่ายเงินสำหรัีบค่าเช่าบ้านให้"

Gething's vocab list for that lesson shows ทุน as 'grant or fellowship'

The grant/fellowship paying for shipping costs is a tad easier for me to swallow than 'the scholarship paying for shipping costs.' In any case, it's a good example of how Gething keeps you on your toes with an occasional return to vocabulary from previous lessons.

[SoftWater]

In lesson #4, John was searching for a rental. The prospective landlady quoted a price and asked if the quote was too expensive.

John replied, "ไม่แพงเกินไปครับ ขอบคุณ ผมเป็นนักเรียนทุน เขาจ่ายเงินสำหรัีบค่าเช่าบ้านให้"

Gething's vocab list for that lesson shows ทุน as 'grant or fellowship'

The grant/fellowship paying for shipping costs is a tad easier for me to swallow than 'the scholarship paying for shipping costs.' In any case, it's a good example of how Gething keeps you on your toes with an occasional return to vocabulary from previous lessons.

You mean a 'fellowship' would imply he is a member of staff at his own educational institution, whereas a 'scholarship' would imply he's just a student in his home institution? Do I understand your point correctly? I must admit, I hadn't thought about it in such detail, just reading the idea that John had received some kind of 'grant' (which can apply to both situations). However, given what we now know from ch24 I agree your interpretation makes more sense.

This brings up something else though. In the sentence from chapter 4 quoted above, who is เขา referring to? Surely, if he meant his grant covered his housing cost, we should have seen an impersonal pronoun being used here (มัน) rather than a personal one?

[meadish_sweetball]

While from the context, both interpretations are possible, I think we are just to understand ทุนเขา as ทุณของเขา and not as a duplicate subject, i.e. 'the grant (it)'.

[SoftWater]

While from the context, both interpretations are possible, I think we are just to understand ทุนเขา as ทุณของเขา and not as a duplicate subject, i.e. 'the grant (it)'.

Sorry, I should have included the quote. I wasn't referring to ch24, but to this that Kokesaat mentioned from ch4:

John: ผมเป็นนักเรียนทุน เขาจ่ายเงินสำหรัีบค่าเช่าบ้านให้"

Edited August 11, 2009 by SoftWater

[meadish_sweetball]

Thank you for the clarification, my apologies for the misunderstanding, I missed checking the chapter reference.

I think in "ผมเป็นนักเรียนทุน เขาจ่ายเงินสำหรัีบค่าเช่าบ้านให้", เขา refers to 'they' i.e. whoever gave him the scholarship..

Pronoun usage is fairly loose in spoken Thai.

[SoftWater]

In Chapter 23 we meet the term หลายสิบ in หลายสิบคน

I have also seen this used in other contexts such as หลายสิบปี

and I'd imagine you could use it with any countable noun.

My question is which of the following would best capture the meaning:

i. more than ten (noun)

ii. many tens of (noun)

iii. many (noun) - [where the word สิบ (ten) is not meant to be understood literally but just reinforces the idea of 'many'.]

I plump for ii. or iii. personally, but am only guessing.

Edited September 4, 2009 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

It means "many tens". I'd say it's used much like I use the word "dozens" in English. That is, it refers to an unspecific number in the mid to high double digits.

เขามีเพื่อนหลายสิบคน

"She has dozens of friends"

[kokesaat]

"ไม่ได้เอาใจใส่ว่าคนโดยสารหลายสิบคนในรถ"

I think Gething was trying to show the bus drivers' (in Thailand) lack of concern about their passengers (with their erratic driving habits). To me, the หลายสิบคน helps paint a picture of the passengers in a bus, whereas in describing a red shirt rally at Sanam Luang, you might say หลายพันคน.

As an aside, while Gething's stories are 30 someodd years old, his take on traffic in Thailand still holds true. Not much has changed!

[kokesaat]

Lesson 27, บทบาทและหน้าที่ของผู้มีอายุ

[kokesaat]

Lesson 27, บทบาทและหน้าที่ของผู้มีอายุ

Disregard, sorry about the erroneous post

[kokesaat]

Lesson 26 discusses the roles and duties of elders (in Thai society). After discussing head shaving ceremonies for ordinations and newly born children, the author comments:

จะเห็นว่าเวลามีพิธีทางศาสนาพุทธ ผู้ใหญ่เท่านั้นเป็นผู้อาราธนาเป็นภาษาบาลี

My nickel translation: You’ll observe that in Buddhist ceremonies, it’s only the elder who leads the prayers in the Bali language.

I’m unsure of the role of อาราธนา. Dictionary says ‘invite/beg/ask’ but I can’t figure out how to work that into the sentence.

Anyone have any ideas?

THD627_1.mp3

[SimonN]

จะเห็นว่าเวลามีพิธีทางศาสนาพุทธ ผู้ใหญ่เท่านั้นเป็นผู้อาราธนาเป็นภาษาบาลี

I’m unsure of the role of อาราธนา. Dictionary says ‘invite/beg/ask’ but I can’t figure out how to work that into the sentence.

Anyone have any ideas?

อาราธนา is short for อาราธนาธรรม "to invite to give a sermon".

ผู้ใหญ่เท่านั้นเป็นผู้อาราธนาเป็นภาษาบาลี "only the elders are asked to address the prayers (in Pali)".

[Rikker]

It's because you're "inviting/requesting" the monks to do something. From the Thai Wikipedia page, types of อาราธนา:

* อาราธนาศีล คือร้องขอให้พระให้ศีล

* อาราธนาพระปริตร คือร้องขอให้พระสวดมนต์

* อาราธนาธรรม คือร้องขอให้พระแสดงธรรม

* อาราธนาไปทำบุญบ้าน คือนิมนต์พระไปทำพิธีที่บ้าน

Similar to how "pray" means to beg or entreat.

[kokesaat]

Thanks SimonN & Rikker.

I've been in lots of ceremonies where this occurs, I've just never thought of it as a form of 'inviting', maybe more of a form of 'leading the congregation in prayer' (my Christian roots are exposed!).

[Rionoir]

Anyone else laughing at the Thai guy saying จอห์น's lines in the dialogue? I was just listening to the Lesson 1 audio.. it sounds like a Thai guy trying to sound like an American speaking Thai hehe...

[SimonN]

Anyone else laughing at the Thai guy saying จอห์น's lines in the dialogue? I was just listening to the Lesson 1 audio.. it sounds like a Thai guy trying to sound like an American speaking Thai hehe...

Sounds like an American speaking pretty good Thai to me ... incidentally, what Thai accent is the เจ้าหน้าที่ speaking with?

[Rikker]

Anyone else laughing at the Thai guy saying จอห์น's lines in the dialogue? I was just listening to the Lesson 1 audio.. it sounds like a Thai guy trying to sound like an American speaking Thai hehe...

Sounds like an American to me, too. Accent's not awful, but his clear clusters and American 'r' pronunciation are a dead giveaway.

incidentally, what Thai accent is the เจ้าหน้าที่ speaking with?

There are two different เจ้าหน้าที่ voices, the immigration guy and the customs guy. I can't tell where they're originally from, but both are speaking central ("standard") Thai.

[kokesaat]

Lesson 31 of the Gething Reader. A passenger is discussing a crackdown on for-hire vehicles by the police. The taxi driver says that there are good cops/bad cops, good taxi drivers bad taxi drivers, but if you don't break the law, there's no problem. To which the writer (the passenger) says:

ข้าพเจ้าได้ฟังคนแท็กซี่พูดด้วยเห็ตุผลก็นึกชมในใจ and then he asked the taxi driver

เราเคยพบคนดีๆบ้างไหมในระยะที่ขับรถเช่าตลอดเวลาที่ผ่านมา

My dictionaries don't have นึกชม but I'll take a guess at "I listened to the taxi driver's reasoning and 'felt the same way' myself"

I'm a bit unsure of the taxi driver's response, but think it's "Have you ever met any good people in all the time you've been driving (the taxi)?"

I've added a clip of the conversation. I always appreciate your help!

THD631_1.mp3

[anchan42]

พูดด้วยเหตุผล(no ็ for เหตุ ) Speaking with reasons as opposed to speak with emotion, prejudgement, etc. Speaking sensibly basically.

นึก is to think, to ponder, to have thoughts in your mind. ชม means to praise, to approve.

นึกชมในใจ = (I) think and praise him in my mind.

I think นึก and ในใจ are semantically redundant but they are collocated together here.

[kokesaat]

lesson 36 of the Gething Reader is about the different quadrants of the body (head, feet, left, right) and discusses some cultural taboos.

One line reads:

เวลาคนไทยจะพูดถึงตนเองกับพระเจ้าอยู่หัวและพระราชินี จะต้องเรียกตนเองโดยใช้ส่วนที่สูงที่สุดของร่างกายคือหัวแทน

I get the first part...."When Thai people refer to themselves and the King or the Queen", but any way I try on the second part doesn't make sense......something about using the highest part of their body instead in referring to themselves (and that just doesn't compute).

Can anyone help out?

Mp3 included

THD636_1.mp3

[SoftWater]

This is from Ch24:

เขาจึงต้องการตู้หนังสือและโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลินชักและใหญ่หน่อย

I had understood this as

"He therefore wants a bookcase and workdesk with large and small drawers"

But I'm now wondering if that is correct. The construction ลินชักและใหญ่หน่อย looks like two nouns, not one noun and an adjective phrase.

Any thoughts?

Edited March 13, 2010 by SoftWater

[SimonN]

เขาจึงต้องการตู้หนังสือและโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลินชักและใหญ่หน่อย

I had understood this as

"He therefore wants a bookcase and workdesk with large and small drawers"

I think "ใหญ่หน่อย" is referring to the size of the desk rather than the drawers.

"He therefore wants a bookcase and a slightly bigger workdesk with drawers."