Is There Really A "mafia" On Samui?

[Mark Wolfe]

Aside from the semantics of "mafia" being an Italian term, is there really an organized crime group here on Samui?

My guess is no. I think what we have is a section of the local male population who take advantage of tourists (and perhaps each other) as they can, and socialize with each other to some degree.

Motorbike and jet ski owners sometimes attempt to falsely claim damages from unwitting tourists. Because there is some "gift" given to the police when they "arbitrate" these disputes, they are more apt to see the Thai complainant in a favorable light (that's a nice way of saying graft).

Shop landlords, all of which are Thai, form a group (even though they may not be actively associating) and I suppose some have a clique mentality as well (one that might include the notion that foreigners are necessary evils and who need to show the "bosses" the kind of respect that they feel they deserve.)

Taxi drivers take what they can because they can get away with it, and there is no way to enforce any sort of meter-use regulation.

Kids riding around on bikes at night at full speed are just kids.

I think there is a leap of misunderstanding to think that all these groups/individuals (and there are more examples than I provided) are somehow all interconnected in some sort of "Samui mob family." There is no organized structure with "bosses" and "foot soldiers." Whatever is happening here is because of opportunism and greed.

There is no mafia in Samui.

[OnTheSnap]

This is the FBI's definition of organized crime:

Organized Crime

The FBI defines organized crime as any group having some manner of a formalized structure and whose primary objective is to obtain money through illegal activities. Such groups maintain their position through the use of actual or threatened violence, corrupt public officials, graft, or extortion, and generally have a significant impact on the people in their locales, region, or the country as a whole.

Based on that definition, I would say that there is definitely organized crime on Samui- I'm not going to give (what should be obvious to anyone who's spent significant time here) specific examples, but there is certainly collusion between many groups on the island.

[Samuian]

Yes, several, but call them "Interest Groups", "Business Interest Groups", Clans.... how about Cosa Nostra (our cause) and "Uncle Enzo", that would put it about right?

[Mark Wolfe]

The FBI defines organized crime as any group having some manner of a formalized structure...

"Formalized structure" is the operative phrase here.

I don't believe this exists here. Any appearance of structure is coincidental. While a few people may be friends who scratch each others' backs, there is no "big boss" and his minions.

It's like saying that everyone who plays golf on Samui is a member of the "golf on Samui gang." There might be a few small groups that play together, but the general picture is one of individuals acting in their own self interest.

[angiud]

We can talk, for sure, of a cops mafia. Talking of KPG, we can talk, for sure, of a bike for rent mafia, where the prices and the damages are uniformed for every shop and the following intervention of an accomodating policeman is only one way (thai). We can talk of a taxi mafia, a taxi boat mafia.

In the common use of this word mafia has a wider meaning than only organized crime.

[OnTheSnap]

The FBI defines organized crime as any group having some manner of a formalized structure...

"Formalized structure" is the operative phrase here.

The key words are actually "some manner of a formalized structure (not a written-in-stone hierarchy)" and "groups maintain their position through the use of actual or threatened violence, corrupt public officials, graft, or extortion, and generally have a significant impact on the people in their locales"

The owners/operators of the jet-ski/taxi operations work in collusion with the police- how is that not "formalized"?

There is no way the police could operate so openly and brazenly without the knowledge of their superiors ("bosses")- the jet-skis businesses set up on the beach, which is in itself illegal as it is public land, without any problems- everyone knows the taxi drivers don't use their meters, yet the people in the position to do something about it do nothing.

There may not be one "big guy" with his finger in every pie, but there are certainly people at the top of each "business" who get the lion's share of the profits.

[Wellington]

The FBI defines organized crime as any group having some manner of a formalized structure...

"Formalized structure" is the operative phrase here.

The key words are actually "some manner of a formalized structure (not a written-in-stone hierarchy)" and "groups maintain their position through the use of actual or threatened violence, corrupt public officials, graft, or extortion, and generally have a significant impact on the people in their locales"

The owners/operators of the jet-ski/taxi operations work in collusion with the police- how is that not "formalized"?

There is no way the police could operate so openly and brazenly without the knowledge of their superiors ("bosses")- the jet-skis businesses set up on the beach, which is in itself illegal as it is public land, without any problems- everyone knows the taxi drivers don't use their meters, yet the people in the position to do something about it do nothing.

There may not be one "big guy" with his finger in every pie, but there are certainly people at the top of each "business" who get the lion's share of the profits.

Don't forget the drug suppliers.......not all Thai.

[mssabai]

Coconuts? I mean the Sicilian mafia began with lemons. Just a thought! The coconut mafia has a ring to it I think....

[Samuian]

collusion to protect their very own interests - I can't see anything really wrong with it,

concerning how things been handled before Farang - "white knows all, big nose" came

here!

Some 20 years ago, there was maybe a handfull of BiB's on the island, stationed in Nathon.

The Islanders and rural folks are used to take things into their own hands... this has changed

or is about to change, since there are these structures, the "Pu Yai" system, things will change slowly,

for the ones who benefit or even profit from these schemes ah "no, no!" - it's about influence, power,

some think they are "rights" and it will be difficult to change soon - unless the change comes from within

no chance!

look at the politics.. grassroots, most of it is run by some sort pyramid scheme -

for us it's best to keep out of it - the best chance not to get burned is not to get involved in ANY way!

Unless one thinks there is a reason of some sort....

[carmine]

Theres organised crime everywhere. Maybe the make up is different. No boss, caporegime, capo, but still organised crime, and ofcourse, carried out on different levels. Yes, the term mafia is Italien related, but the 'mob' is universal. I don't think it should be a huge suprise, and certainly does'nt it my eyes make this place stand out as any different to almost anywhere else. By different levels, i'm refering to, shall we say, control of waste management in New Jersey as opposed to taxis cocrete or jetskis here.

[thairaid]

Aside from the semantics of "mafia" being an Italian term, is there really an organized crime group here on Samui?

My guess is no. I think what we have is a section of the local male population who take advantage of tourists (and perhaps each other) as they can, and socialize with each other to some degree.

Motorbike and jet ski owners sometimes attempt to falsely claim damages from unwitting tourists. Because there is some "gift" given to the police when they "arbitrate" these disputes, they are more apt to see the Thai complainant in a favorable light (that's a nice way of saying graft).

Shop landlords, all of which are Thai, form a group (even though they may not be actively associating) and I suppose some have a clique mentality as well (one that might include the notion that foreigners are necessary evils and who need to show the "bosses" the kind of respect that they feel they deserve.)

Taxi drivers take what they can because they can get away with it, and there is no way to enforce any sort of meter-use regulation.

Kids riding around on bikes at night at full speed are just kids.

I think there is a leap of misunderstanding to think that all these groups/individuals (and there are more examples than I provided) are somehow all interconnected in some sort of "Samui mob family." There is no organized structure with "bosses" and "foot soldiers." Whatever is happening here is because of opportunism and greed.

There is no mafia in Samui.

Completely disagree, there are clearly a few very powerful families here who run things, including e.g. the taxis and do so outside of the bounds of law and make buckets of money because of it = mafia

[norwayeagle]

Aside from the semantics of "mafia" being an Italian term, is there really an organized crime group here on Samui?

My guess is no. I think what we have is a section of the local male population who take advantage of tourists (and perhaps each other) as they can, and socialize with each other to some degree.

Motorbike and jet ski owners sometimes attempt to falsely claim damages from unwitting tourists. Because there is some "gift" given to the police when they "arbitrate" these disputes, they are more apt to see the Thai complainant in a favorable light (that's a nice way of saying graft).

Shop landlords, all of which are Thai, form a group (even though they may not be actively associating) and I suppose some have a clique mentality as well (one that might include the notion that foreigners are necessary evils and who need to show the "bosses" the kind of respect that they feel they deserve.)

Taxi drivers take what they can because they can get away with it, and there is no way to enforce any sort of meter-use regulation.

Kids riding around on bikes at night at full speed are just kids.

I think there is a leap of misunderstanding to think that all these groups/individuals (and there are more examples than I provided) are somehow all interconnected in some sort of "Samui mob family." There is no organized structure with "bosses" and "foot soldiers." Whatever is happening here is because of opportunism and greed.

There is no mafia in Samui.

You would not know.

[NHJ]

regarding the "taxi mafia" a question comes to my mind, their price is so high but where is all the money going?

is it going in the taxi drivers pocket or they send a large part of the extra money made to a "big boss"?

i have a friend that is taxi driver, she's one of the only female taxi driver and she had a special road, when i first met her she was in a beer bar, then she changed for massage parlour and now taxi driver.

next time i'll see her, i'll take her apart and ask a few questions but if some of you did it already, i'd like to hear what you heard

[Mark Wolfe]

My OP...

There is no mafia in Samui.

You would not know.

Of course, thus this thread. Did I miss something there?

I think that some are confusing localized self-interest groups, taxis, rental vehicles and club/bar/restaurant owners (for example) have some hierarchical structure within each segment, but as for a "mafia on Samui," such that one or two "heads" get together and say, "We're raising the price of motorbike rentals to 500 baht a day. Pee Guidoporn, make it happen," is silly.

I also agree that there are influential families here. That does not mean they are into extortion, graft and violence.

Let me also say that I am not suggesting that there is no collusion here. But just because Ralph's and Safeway charge the same for tomatoes doesn't lead me to the conclusion that they are in cahoots and are artificially establishing a price above the free market.

I think there is a difference between similar businesses with less than scrupulous people involved being opportunistic and a family or several pulling all the string from the top.

But, as norwayeagle points out, I do not know this for sure. It is unlikely that anyone on this board has concrete evidence of actual Samui underworld bosses and their organizational structure, but if so, please clear the air.

[grandslam]

My OP...

There is no mafia in Samui.

You would not know.

Of course, thus this thread. Did I miss something there?

I think that some are confusing localized self-interest groups, taxis, rental vehicles and club/bar/restaurant owners (for example) have some hierarchical structure within each segment, but as for a "mafia on Samui," such that one or two "heads" get together and say, "We're raising the price of motorbike rentals to 500 baht a day. Pee Guidoporn, make it happen," is silly.

I also agree that there are influential families here. That does not mean they are into extortion, graft and violence.

Let me also say that I am not suggesting that there is no collusion here. But just because Ralph's and Safeway charge the same for tomatoes doesn't lead me to the conclusion that they are in cahoots and are artificially establishing a price above the free market.

I think there is a difference between similar businesses with less than scrupulous people involved being opportunistic and a family or several pulling all the string from the top.

But, as norwayeagle points out, I do not know this for sure. It is unlikely that anyone on this board has concrete evidence of actual Samui underworld bosses and their organizational structure, but if so, please clear the air.

Surely if someone had concrete evidence and wanted to clear the air, theonly thing concrete would be their feet. Then of to the nearest lake.

[thairaid]

My OP...

There is no mafia in Samui.

You would not know.

Of course, thus this thread. Did I miss something there?

I think that some are confusing localized self-interest groups, taxis, rental vehicles and club/bar/restaurant owners (for example) have some hierarchical structure within each segment, but as for a "mafia on Samui," such that one or two "heads" get together and say, "We're raising the price of motorbike rentals to 500 baht a day. Pee Guidoporn, make it happen," is silly.

I also agree that there are influential families here. That does not mean they are into extortion, graft and violence.

Let me also say that I am not suggesting that there is no collusion here. But just because Ralph's and Safeway charge the same for tomatoes doesn't lead me to the conclusion that they are in cahoots and are artificially establishing a price above the free market.

I think there is a difference between similar businesses with less than scrupulous people involved being opportunistic and a family or several pulling all the string from the top.

But, as norwayeagle points out, I do not know this for sure. It is unlikely that anyone on this board has concrete evidence of actual Samui underworld bosses and their organizational structure, but if so, please clear the air.

hemmmmm ....then please explain the "standard" taxi-meter fares ...the ones that are all the same make, color, etc...and not the other ones, that there are NONE of on the island...think

[Mark Wolfe]

hemmmmm ....then please explain the "standard" taxi-meter fares ...the ones that are all the same make, color, etc...and not the other ones, that there are NONE of on the island...think

Not sure about that, but an accurate meter is an accurate meter; however, the taxi drivers here were instructed by some authority to be allowed the 90 baht surcharge and to have their meters register differently than in Bangkok, for example, if memory serves.

[Samuian]

It is unlikely that anyone on this board has concrete evidence of actual Samui underworld bosses and their organizational structure, but if so, please clear the air.

....not daring enough are you..welcome to earth sir!

besides read the writing on the wall this time it was

a simple t-shirt from one of the Jet-ski crews,

on the back it said: "Bandit Junior"..

..now everyone figures..

[PatinBKk]

The Thais seem to call anyone that has had as much as a parking ticket 'Mafia'....theres more organised crime and Mafia in Milton Keynes than Samui

[angiud]

That remind me when some big head italian politician in the seventies talking like " the mafia doesn't exist" about Sicily...

[Geekfreaklover]

I lived on the island for two years at the turn of the century. I knew at least three people killed by the big boys. I wrote a book about it. Nobody read it. Bless them.

Best not to talk or type about it. Samui in my opnion is not thailand. It is it's own country with it's own set of rules.

[Samuian]

Samui in my opnion is not thailand. It is it's own country with it's own set of rules.

Yep, when I came here, people from the mainland were considered foreigners...unless

they were relatives from Surat or Nakhon...

but then, who cares, it is entirely up to them, their home turf!

Edited August 12, 2009 by Samuian

[mustafa]

When the Samui cops find out the Bkk cops are coming down to bust the DVD shops, they call all the shops to warn them, then collect 10k from every one. Have also been told by a shop owner she pays a monthly fee to the cops here. Sounds pretty organised to me

[thairaid]

hemmmmm ....then please explain the "standard" taxi-meter fares ...the ones that are all the same make, color, etc...and not the other ones, that there are NONE of on the island...think

Not sure about that, but an accurate meter is an accurate meter; however, the taxi drivers here were instructed by some authority to be allowed the 90 baht surcharge and to have their meters register differently than in Bangkok, for example, if memory serves.

yes, and how many of them follow that now....also, and far more important, a taxi not using a meter is illegal...in ALL of Thailand...and their rates (if they were using their meters) are also illegal...hemmm...yet everyone knows that...how do they get away with that?

[thairaid]

I lived on the island for two years at the turn of the century. I knew at least three people killed by the big boys. I wrote a book about it. Nobody read it. Bless them.

Best not to talk or type about it. Samui in my opnion is not thailand. It is it's own country with it's own set of rules.

ya, I too know of and knew three people here that were done away with by the locals. And who does not know about a certain estate agent/developer/german/optician's wife who was gunned down two years ago in the middle of the day at the said individual's office in front of everyone?...probably by the same said individual and who also had gunned downed (though lived and still here under the patronage of the shooting range owner....mafi.....) his former estate agency partner.... ...ya, no mafia here but the timeshare salesscum

[lazygourmet]

It is unlikely that anyone on this board has concrete evidence of actual Samui underworld bosses and their organizational structure, but if so, please clear the air.

....not daring enough are you..welcome to earth sir!

besides read the writing on the wall this time it was

a simple t-shirt from one of the Jet-ski crews,

on the back it said: "Bandit Junior"..

..now everyone figures..

Isn't "Bundit" the name of the owner of most of the speedboats and jetskis on the island?

... maybe just a typo error!?!

[Samuian]

...well, to say the least there certainly people with "connections"...

[Mark Wolfe]

For those who think there is an organized mob here, let me ask:

1. What things are controlled by the mob? Drugs? Gambling? Taxi fares? Construction contracts? Vegetable prices?

1A. Of those things controlled by the mob, how much income are we talking about?

(1. I can't see much on Samui that would be of interest to an organized mob, given that 1A, even if there were payoffs and shakedowns, the amount would not be worth the effort.)

I believe that there are "gangs" in the sense of small groups of local (men) who fancy themselves "players"; maybe they own a club or two, or come from a wealthy Samui family (sold land/have lots of coconut palms, whatever makes one wealthy here). They are self-styled tough guys who hobknob and like to be flashy. I hardly believe they are running any covert, illegal operation beyond petty theft, and certainly there aren't any gangland bosses who decide who sells tom yom or how much the laundry cost should be per kilo or who decides that so-and-so needs to eat a bullet.

[Mark Wolfe]

When the Samui cops find out the Bkk cops are coming down to bust the DVD shops, they call all the shops to warn them, then collect 10k from every one. Have also been told by a shop owner she pays a monthly fee to the cops here. Sounds pretty organised to me

Organized? That's simple graft. Look it up. This has nothing to do with organized crime mobs.

geekfreaklover:

I knew at least three people killed by the big boys.

"The big boys"? You suppose they are somehow connected when actually they are just cliques. And the killing surrounding the real estate agent or whatever; what makes you think MR BIG ordered a hit? You might as well spend your time looking for that missing Japanese WWII gold in the Philippines. Someone has a grudge and you make it out to be some conspiracy.

[thairaid]

For those who think there is an organized mob here, let me ask:

1. What things are controlled by the mob? Drugs? Gambling? Taxi fares? Construction contracts? Vegetable prices?

1A. Of those things controlled by the mob, how much income are we talking about?

(1. I can't see much on Samui that would be of interest to an organized mob, given that 1A, even if there were payoffs and shakedowns, the amount would not be worth the effort.)

I believe that there are "gangs" in the sense of small groups of local (men) who fancy themselves "players"; maybe they own a club or two, or come from a wealthy Samui family (sold land/have lots of coconut palms, whatever makes one wealthy here). They are self-styled tough guys who hobknob and like to be flashy. I hardly believe they are running any covert, illegal operation beyond petty theft, and certainly there aren't any gangland bosses who decide who sells tom yom or how much the laundry cost should be per kilo or who decides that so-and-so needs to eat a bullet.

mark, have you been to anywhere else in Thailand? if so, have you noticed how many very nice new cars there are here compared to the rest of te country? think mark, a bit, please...