Merchant Of Death To Learn Fate Today

[henryalleman]

I hope he manages to fight the charges and is set free.

Given politics however, who knows how the court case will go.

Do you have any idea what he is accused of? What about the liberties of the thousands he alleged to be responsible for the death of? However I don't see why usa has to continue to be the worlds self appointed police, the UN should really get there finger out and take control.

Being an American, I don't understand why we have to be policing the world either. I wish the rest of the world could take care of themselves and stop relying so much on the USA.

Its not so much that the rest of the world relying on the USA, but its the USA who always impose his will to other nations, while themselves don't recognize or accept international rulings or courts.

Be it the international court of The hague, Children rights or enviroment and trade agreements.

They still believe in the 19th century gunboat policy.

Edited August 11, 2009 by henryalleman

[lannarebirth]

Perhaps some British people out there remember the show Yes Minister and the episode "The Whisky Priest" where the whole arms trade issue was examined with good insight and (of course) excellent humour.

In sum, the arms trade is a political issue rather than a moral or legal one, and that is how this case will be handled throughout.

Learned that on a sit-com did ya?

[TehBen]

Congratulations to all the "anti-American" posters on this board. You should all be diplomats from your respective home countries.

Do you REALLY think all the facts have been disclosed in this case ? Since you don't know what the hel_l you're talking about why don't you keep your phuckin mouth shut till you DO know the facts, and can make a fair judgement. They ought to call you "robin", you're all mouth and ass.

For all you people who hate the U.S. so much. you probably aren't old enough to remember, but if the U.S. hadn't entered World War 2 when they did, you'd all be speaking German. I'm old enough to remember, I was there.

Is all this anti-American bullshit you're spreading in any way related to the original post.....I don't think so,

You don't even know our history and then trying to educate us what would have happened (...we would perhaps be speaking Russian, since they turned the eastern front).

WW2 would have been won without the US, it only would have taken much longer time.

Europe was lost to the Germans, North Afrika was lost to the Germans, the Pacific was lost to the Japanese. Go to the graves in France to see who won your war.

I believe Britain is actually part of Europe is it not?

Been to the graves. One of the most harrowing experiences of my life. No 1 country 'won' the war. Thankfully it was a team effort and the dedication/commitment of a generation. If it hadn't been for the fight that was put up by the Allies before the US turned up then it would have been a much much different Europe today. /digress

Edited August 11, 2009 by benavenell

[OzMick]

I find interesting the fine definitions between sting and entrapment. In one case, a gold miner from Kalgoorlie (AUS) found an add for a Mexican hotel on a paedophile web-site, which said they could supply children to your specifications. He booked a room with 2 girls between the ages of 8-10.

Can't fly direct to Mexico from Aus, so he went via L.A. where he was arrested IN THE TRANSIT LOUNGE by the FBI, who run the add. Found guilty as he had paid a deposit, with his Amex no less.

In Thailand, if a police officer offers to sell you drugs, and you take them in your hand, you are guilty of possession. Bleeding heart liberals will tell you this is morally wrong, but it is also a cheap and effective way of apprehending persons with criminal intent.

Victor Bout was attempting to sell surface-to-air missiles. The shoulder launched versions are ineffective against military jets, better against helicopters, and far too good when it comes to civilian aircraft in take-off or landing. The possession of such a weapon is illegal in every country, perhaps not in combat zones.

When it comes to stopping some-one flogging these to all and sundry (hey FARC are nice guys) I'm all for whatever works. If politicaly correct extradition doesn't, next meeting blow his brains out

[thaiphoon]

Well, this whole thing can be solved easily. He tried to sell arms while in Thailand. If doesn't have a Work Permit, then he should be strung up for sure!

And then he will be deported to ... err, Russia!

[footman6]

Someone Has Work For this Man somewhere in the World that is now in the Interest of The USA...

They will end up Working the Man to Death............

[tim73]

Europe was lost to the Germans, North Afrika was lost to the Germans, the Pacific was lost to the Japanese. Go to the graves in France to see who won your war.

For different reasons you yourself should go to France (American War of Independence) to see who won that one. Brits even came back and managed to BURN down Washington DC (August 1814). Without the French USA would not even EXIST. So maybe you should pipe down that WWII "we saved your asses" stupid talk.

Edited August 11, 2009 by tim73

[Kopauvin]

Its only one way for him: extradition. It will happen sooner or later as US is much stronger on the ground in Thailand than Russia.

I think you will find there are more Russian tourists than American - c'est la vie

[Chung noi]

You know getting extraited to the USA might not be a bad thing for this guy?

Look at Oliver North and his role with the Iran-Contra scandle....He's a TV star now.

North was a National Security Council member involved in the sale of weapons to Iran, which served to encourage the release of U.S. hostages from Lebanon. The second part of the plan was diverting proceeds from the arms sales to support the Contra rebel group in Nicaragua. North was charged with several felonies, but the charges were later dismissed in 1991. The best part of the hearing was hearing Mr. Reagan repeat over and over again "Sorry I Don't Remember"........lol.

Currently, he is a political commentator, host of War Stories with Oliver North on Fox News Channel, and a New York Times best-selling author.

America's Hero.

*j*

[Thai at Heart]

This should go down as one of the larger screw ups the US has perpetrated.

They get a guy arrested without being sure that he had actually committed a crime in the country where they got him arrested!

It's a bit like busting a cannabis smoker in Amsterdam.

Almost - you would not be able to extradite someone from The Netherlands to the USA who is being charged with smoking cannabis in the USA because the crime has to exist in both countries for the extradition order to be valid.

What has happenned here is that the Thai courts have made a correct legal judgement based on the law - the crime the extradition warrant covers does not exist in Thailand as the courts have clearly stated and therefore he cannot be extradited. It is not a case of him having to have committed that crime in Thailand just that such a crime is recognised as such under Thai law.

What I cannot understand is why, if this guy is as evil as many are saying, they cannot come up with proper evidence to show that he has committed an offence that Thailand has on its statute books or he isn't being extradited to somewhere where there is a clear case against him.

Likewise, would the US be able to extradite Osama Bin Laden from the Netherlands if the stated crime was cannabis smoking? The law they tried to get him on, would appear to be open to some very considerable interpretation in Thailand. This whole thing wouldn't have been able to be set up in Thailand if there weren't quite a lot of promises made and a lot of research done to quantify that the thing would be a slam dunk case.

Well why didn't all concerned try a little harder and put tie supply from Bout to the hands of the muslim fanatics down South. I am sure that would have insured the correct result.

[stingray]

I hope he manages to fight the charges and is set free.

Given politics however, who knows how the court case will go.

Thankfully we dont live in your world.

In the sixties and seventies, USA WAS the greatest country on earth. Today............ forget it. Nothing else than big brother.... try to control the world and even black mail other countries. I talk tis, as i'm Swiss Citizen and currently can see how US coverment try to blackmail Switzerland about releasing names of 52'000 US citizens who have a numbered Swiss account. If they want this russian man so urgent, than they have to put every wepon dealer, even leagal wepanshop owners in the jail, when someone bought a gun to kill somebody.

Basycly i want confirm that i'm not against Americans, as i have many good american friends here in LOS and Hawaii, but, sad to say, (similar like Adolf Hitler in the fourties) their arrogant Goverment System, call administration, get out of control.

[Bolo]

Regardless of how you feel about war, or peace, or arms sales, the issue is one man and one set of circumstances.

Viktor Bout committed no crime in Thailand.

The American DEA, however, created a "set of criminal circumstances" (i.e., an illegal sting operation.)

I would argue that for all of us, who conduct business internationally, that the Bout case is one to watch, and it is not good for Thailand.

Bangkok is a cross roads where many persons meet to discuss many types of business deals, or prospective business deals.

Bout is guilty of meeting and talking.

If Bout gets extradited to the USA, it sends a chilling message far beyond just the world of Arms Sales. Practically, it means that every International businessman, everyplace, in any business, must be well versed in every trendy and fashionable American "cause d'jour".

So, I would ask the not-so-rhetorical question: If you plan to meet anyone, anywhere on the planet, to discuss any business deal of any kind, can you be sure that you are not somehow violating one of the USA's extraterritorial laws?

Dredd, this is where I am confused. Are not most criminals that are in other countries there so they can elude the law? Seems they don't committ the crime in their host country and that is why extradition takes place. I'm just curious about this and after I saw the comment in the news about not sending him to US due to he didn't committ a crime in Thailand.

[markinoc]

A court in the Thai capital Bangkok is expected to rule later on Tuesday on whether an alleged Russian arms smuggler can be extradited to the US to face trial.

Viktor Bout, a former Soviet air force officer, is accused of supplying millions of dollars worth of weapons to Colombia's FARC rebels and to countries under UN arms embargoes.

On Tuesday he was transported in shackles from his jail cell to Bangkok's main criminal court.

Speaking to reporters as he arrived at the court he said he had "no expectation" about the verdict.

Bout was arrested in March last year at a luxury hotel in Bangkok, after an elaborate sting operation in which US agents posed as arms buyers.

The US now wants to try him on charges of trying to sell large quantities of high-tech weapons, including surface-to-air missiles to the FARC rebels.

He has been indicted on four terrorism-related charges in New York and could face a maximum penalty of life in jail.

Prosecutors say Bout's long-running career in arms smuggling saw him supply weapons to conflicts in South America, the Middle East and Africa, including to former Liberian dictator Charles Taylor.

Bout has repeatedly denied the charges, claiming he ran a legitimate air cargo business and was in Bangkok at the time of his arrest to discuss selling airplanes to Thai businessmen.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pac...1412459645.html

Wow, looks like Thailand is the place to flee.

[henryalleman]

Can see the US embassy dudes getting utterly retarded over this.

The Thai government are going to be ordered to appeal or find some other way to render Bout. Wonder if there is any cheap fuel deal with Russia being lined up.

You mentioned it correctly, the Russian government sold a lot of his surplus of military equipment by Bout. And Russia is an economic power, just look how a Russian bank is trying to buy Opel. Gasprom is an energy giant who deliver almost 20% of the EU energy needs. Russia can be an very important export market for Thai agriculture products.

Nevertheless I believe that the Thai court ruled independant, its only show the declining influence of the US, Its must be very hard for the US to swallow this bitter medicine.

[animatic]

Europe was lost to the Germans, North Afrika was lost to the Germans, the Pacific was lost to the Japanese. Go to the graves in France to see who won your war.

For different reasons you yourself should go to France (American War of Independence) to see who won that one. Brits even came back and managed to BURN down Washington DC (August 1814). Without the French USA would not even EXIST. So maybe you should pipe down that WWII "we saved your asses" stupid talk.

Well I HAVE been to theose grave yards, and been thanked by the French who also fought

for my parents and grandparents efforts on their behalf.

I have also read extensively on the American revolution, most recently '1776',

and France certainly helped with blockades, but it s NOT a foregone conclusion

the war was totally lost with out them.

But these were two VERY different time periods and the main point being

WWII is weithn in the life span of MANY here, and the older ones typically

take umbrage at the younger ones being disrespectful of what they don't understand.

'Surface to air missiles' can take down passenger planes.

I don't care what anybody says, I do NOT want some mercenary bastards

selling these things on the free market to Al queda and their friends.

That is just putting potential mass murder of innocents in the hands of people lacking

any form of moral compunctions. And that makes us culpable for condoning it by inaction.

[oswego]

The U.S government is so hypocritical. We sell arms all the time to fund bad people. You mean to tell me that by spending 5 million dollars(I am just estimating...) to prosecute this guy I am suppose to feel safer in my home? They are just trying to get him because he is high profile. This is pathetic. The U.S is definitely off the deep end. Instead of spending the money to help our homeless and children we are spending our money in Thailand to prosecute this guy who will be replaced in 5 seconds by the next "merchant of death".

[TAWP]

'Surface to air missiles' can take down passenger planes.

I don't care what anybody says, I do NOT want some mercenary bastards

selling these things on the free market to Al queda and their friends.

That is just putting potential mass murder of innocents in the hands of people lacking

any form of moral compunctions. And that makes us culpable for condoning it by inaction.

*cough* The main thing the US supplied (via merchants in Israel and Pakistan iirc) to the (to later become) Norther Alliance, The Talibans and other groups fighting the Russians was *drumroll* shoulder-carried surface to air missiles, that took down a multitide of helicopters and a few airplanes.

Good thing Osama and others got them from the US and not Victor, or they would have used them for bad things...

[warmwater7]

BBC reports that

"This is a political case. The Farc is fighting for a political cause and is not a criminal gang. Thailand does not recognise the Farc as a terrorist group," said the judge delivering the verdict at Bangkok's Criminal Court.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8194824.stm

Not a good day for Thailand.

AMAZING THAILAND!!!!!!!!!!!

[henryalleman]

I hope he manages to fight the charges and is set free.

Given politics however, who knows how the court case will go.

Do you have any idea what he is accused of? What about the liberties of the thousands he alleged to be responsible for the death of? However I don't see why usa has to continue to be the worlds self appointed police, the UN should really get there finger out and take control.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with selling arms.

If it was, let's drag US, UK, Germany, Russia, China, and a whole lot more countries infront of an international court and convict all the politicians approving it.

Seeing it happen yet?

Fact of the matter is that the case brought up to get him extradited is a bogus one. It's not even on the level of getting Capone for tax-evasion, it is much lower.

They are actually charging him with intent - no deal in writing was ever made, he only agreed to meet and possibly sell - arms to a 'Terrorist group', that was nothing more than American Agents posing as South American representatives of one of the many militias in the region.

So it was an entrapment that never even went into conclusion.

He is a merchant of arms and in a true free world he would be allowed to sell to anyone and any country he wishes.

Not true, entrapment is something totally different. You must put the idea in the persons head for it to be entrapment. And there are lots of laws where intent is all that is needed. All your posts make it clear you don't have any idea what this guy was about. He has been suspected for decades of fueling both sides of armed conflicts around the world purely for his financial benefit. There are many international laws, treaties and embargos which clearly prohibit this. He ignored all of them and tens of thousands, if not millions of people have died, families destroyed, women and children raped tortured because he illegally supplied them arms. Just look at the number of countries present in Thailand when he was taken down. As much as I feel my own country at times gets involved where they don't belong, (Iraq) there are times where the super powers need to step in and do something, like we didn't in Sudan. As human beings we have a moral obligation. The U.N. is useless in most cases.

I can only advise that the US or US citizens should not appeal on morals in this issue.

Just remember, Vietnam (still every year thenthousands of misformed baby's are born due to to Agent Orange), Laos, Cambodja (support the Red Khmer), Irac, Afghanistan(supporting the Taliban), Pakistan, Cuba, Congo, Indonesia, Chilli, Nigaraqua, Irangate, the list ist endless. Not yet to mention the numerous coups supported by the US, and assasinations like Allende, Diem and so on.

The US is a rogue state second to none.

[TAWP]

FARC are not nice but they are not an international terrorist organization.

Guess someone fumbled the ball at DEA. "See, I told you! We should have but on turbans and mumbled some in Arabic and we would have had him in custody already!".

[A_Traveller]

The embarrassing situation is that if a meeting had taken place the DEA were presumably concerned that [possibly legally correctly] the Thai authorities would claim prior jurisdiction, [aka publicity] so the aim was to get him into custody without any activity on Thai soil, expecting the 'due process' to be, shall we say less arduous than in more robust jurisdictions. In addition the complaint and subsequent indictment are at best poorly drafted, and lacking credible substance in the court's eyes. The process allowed for evidence to be provided to the court through diplomatic channels, even using the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington for clarifications, but as far as we can tell no effective evidence was provided.

The base legal view was, as I understand it two fold, first the FARC are not a prescribed organisation so terrorism charges failed by default without fundamental supporting evidence, and secondly since there was no definable offence under either Thai law or jurisdiction they had no reason to further hold Bout, subject to statutory Crown appeal.

This case was badly managed by the DEA team, it deserved to fail, and as far as I can see based on the DoJ submissions the court reached a reasonable verdict.

Regards

PS If you're a EU citizen read this... MLAT EU-US

[IAMSOBAD]

90 percent of the posts on this thread should be deleted for being totally OFF TOPIC. Please start a new thread called...WHY I HATE AMERICANS. There you can vent your hatred and not bore the 10 percent that want to discuss a killer selling arms to kill more people. When will thaivisa start being about farang living in Thailand and not about I HATE THE USA. Please start your own website where you can voice your hatred to others who share your hate.

THIS IS NOT THE PLACE.

[oswego]

It is my sincere hope that he will go free. He is my hero.

[henryalleman]

USA is very close to economic and maybe even all-out collapse USSR style. The debts on all levels (consumers, US government, municipalities, states, big banks) are just so huge and imperial overstretch is making things even worse. There is no way USA is able to continue that superpower game much longer. I'd give one year max before real SHTF happens big time. Given the rather aggressive nature of Americans (meaning up yours and bang bang! , all bets are off. Good luck Americans, you'll need every bit of it soon...

This now so called Great Recession could turn into real bad depression real fast and that is scary.

Ha ha! Your joking right? What a pile of absolute drivel. lol Check back with me in a year.

The orchestra of the Titanic was still playing when the ship was sinking.

[warmwater7]

I hope he manages to fight the charges and is set free.

Given politics however, who knows how the court case will go.

Thankfully we dont live in your world.

In the sixties and seventies, USA WAS the greatest country on earth. Today............ forget it. Nothing else than big brother.... try to control the world and even black mail other countries. I talk tis, as i'm Swiss Citizen and currently can see how US coverment try to blackmail Switzerland about releasing names of 52'000 US citizens who have a numbered Swiss account. If they want this russian man so urgent, than they have to put every wepon dealer, even leagal wepanshop owners in the jail, when someone bought a gun to kill somebody.

Basycly i want confirm that i'm not against Americans, as i have many good american friends here in LOS and Hawaii, but, sad to say, (similar like Adolf Hitler in the fourties) their arrogant Goverment System, call administration, get out of control.

Thailand on USA's s***t list..............somehow i dont think that will last long.

[animatic]

'Surface to air missiles' can take down passenger planes.

I don't care what anybody says, I do NOT want some mercenary bastards

selling these things on the free market to Al queda and their friends.

That is just putting potential mass murder of innocents in the hands of people lacking

any form of moral compunctions. And that makes us culpable for condoning it by inaction.

*cough* The main thing the US supplied (via merchants in Israel and Pakistan iirc) to the (to later become) Norther Alliance, The Talibans and other groups fighting the Russians was *drumroll* shoulder-carried surface to air missiles, that took down a multitide of helicopters and a few airplanes.

Good thing Osama and others got them from the US and not Victor, or they would have used them for bad things...

Is just that.

TAWP I don't disagree with you on this last either.

If the US created this mess, then I see this as partly US cleaning up the mess.

Gotta draw aline somewhere, can't do much about governmental stupidities

and nada about long past ones, but stopping guys like this from selling to nutters,

is not bad. One less arms merchant spreading death, is just that.

I don't want to fly out of Samui airpoirt and find some nutter from Yala took a house on the hill

and is taking down my plane.. And that is NOT beyond possible here down south.

Give them these weapons and they WILL use them and make a statement.

I don't want to flying on it if they do.

[tomashopkins]

animatic

Put down the bottle

Put down the broad

Time to retire

all over again.

Chicken soup...

a dull far off gaze

as you watch Vanna turn the letters

that is the recipie

to your alphabet soup!

My father too fought in WWII

and though he has gone on

he would never have presumed

to write such trash.

Remember Yorktown!

[tim73]

'Surface to air missiles' can take down passenger planes.

I don't care what anybody says, I do NOT want some mercenary bastards

selling these things on the free market to Al queda and their friends.

That is an interesting dilemma. US and European governments have been and are doing exactly what Victor has done, selling arms to various guerilla groups and governments. For more, the West has by force installed right-wing brutal dictators in Southern America, in Iraq AND in Iran. The hel_l with democracy and the will of the people. The biggest weapons dealers are USA and then EU on this planet. USA has de facto MERCENARY army. This is classic case of "do as we say, not as we do".

Even Osama is seen as a freedom fighter among some Muslims. He wants US troops out of Saudi-Arabia. There Americans support very brutal "government" which uses religion and modern American weapons (like Apache helicopters) to put down everybody daring to question their power. Beheadings and stoning to death as punishment methods. Even Saddam Hussein was not that hard against Iraqis. How is that in any way fair and decent thing to do?

[henryalleman]

...Probably his planes carried weapons to some Muslim terrorist group that is now so plain WRONG, according to West. ...

Interesting, so you are a terrorist sympathizer prophetizing the end of the USA as we know it within the next year. Ok, picture is starting to come together here. Next you'll tell us Bin Laden's not such a bad guy then eh?

And who supported Bin laden and Saddam for many years? Yep, the good old USA. And your reaction is typical American, to twist his words and make a character murder on someone who just tell the truth. I will on the appointment also . the signs are already their, Golden boy is going down in the popularity polls. Just take your blindfold off and you will see what is going on in your country.

The USSR was going down because they could not afford their military expenses anymore, Is the US in such a different position?

You should read the farewell speech of Eisenhower again very carefully.

Edited August 11, 2009 by henryalleman

[henryalleman]

Nice to see you guys are all getting along so well......Thaivisa falang harmony at it's best....

I'm not an American but every once in a while I just get tired of semi-literate morons from the UK and EU countries when they get on this anti yank kick!!

When shit happens in the world and you can't handle it (which is almost always) who do you turn to?? USA.. When the USA gets involved you bitch and complain about yankee bullies. You people are always against everything....what exactly are you for??? The EU has lost the balls to stand up to anything...all they are capable off is talking.....study groups...protesting with bill boards and finger pointing when somebody else (usually the US) tries to do something about it. American foreign policy has often been flawed.....bad decisions have been made....but at least they try .....If the EU would shut up whining and help out....maybe we would start to get somewhere. Fat chance

And somebody suggested the UN should deal with this arms dealing thug!! The fuc_king UN is just the worlds most expensive debating society....

That's my two cents worth as an objective non-American...... Whine on...................

I wonder if some of you American haters were forced to choose between what Americans want for the world and what some of the regimes you seem to sympathize with want for the world........who would you run to??? Stupid question.....you could never be honest with your answer.......it's not just the Thai's who can't stand to lose face.. I wonder how many of you anti-American whiners have every set foot in the US.... I have spent a good deal of time there....and lots of time in the UK and EU countries too. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind which I would choose if I had to.....even taking into account the sometimes bad policy decisions made by US governments at times......find me a country that does not have bad government decisions!!!!

I realy like to know wich regimes I support or symphatize? you seems to know it very well.