Hegemon

[SoCal]

I always wonder how nearly any topic on this board (Thailand), can become a point of anti-Americanism. One minute you guys are talking about ladyboys, and the next minute George W is a f*g. ???

So let me ask you this my American hating friends:

1) In history, what hegemon was more responsible than the U.S.?

2) If not U.S., what country do you think would be a more responsible hegemon? Thailand? China? Russia? France? Mexico? Estonia? Iran?

[Blackandwhite]

Easy tiger

This is a forum not a war

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Don't let 'em wear you down SoCal.  It might only be a reaction to Captain Marvel...oops Captain Bud... a noted shy moderate, and occasional contributor here.

[Mali]

I always wonder how nearly any topic on this board (Thailand), can become a point of anti-Americanism. One minute you guys are talking about ladyboys, and the next minute George W is a f*g.  

Do you think the first amendment of the US constitution, the freedom of speech, is applied to this board?

[SeaVisionBurma]

Dr pat_pong said

Captain Bud... a noted shy moderate

lol

...and occasional contributor here

double  lol

:laugh:

SoCal we're not all American haters, its just that some of them are, shall we say, a little outspoken?  Everyone's views are welcome on a forum, but some are a bit more in-your-face than others.

The issue, IMHO, is that many ordinary American expatriates or travellers are victims of their own country's foreign policies.  There are many nationalities who simply do not agree with one country actively or unilaterally engaging in the affairs of another.

In addition to this, some American nationals openly make their opinions known (whether in support of their Govt or not), and a further few are even openly patriotic to all who will listen.

If these Americans, while guests in another countries, kept their views on their own country to themselves - there would probably be far less "yank bashing" seen on the likes of this forum.

Just my opinon.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Touche Mali    

[Axel]

I read a lot in this forum, but never came across any anti-Americanisms. If somebody has an opinion different from somebody elses why not say so. But do not mix up opinion in an event like the Iraq war or for a person like G.W., with "hating America".

Btw, I have a clear opinion about Mr. Berlusconi, nobody says I am anti-Italian. My original respect for Mr. Blair went considerably down over the last few months, does this mean I hate the Brits?

[chonabot]

My original respect for Mr. Blair went considerably down over the last few months, does this mean I hate the Brits?

Nope it means you share our opinions!

 

[Thetyim]

Touche Mali    

Did you leave a 'm' out there ?

[TRIPxCORE]

Being an American myself, I can sometimes understand people of other nations not thinking too favorably about us.  Many of my countrymen and women are very proud and insular thinking people that believe nothing worthwhile happens outside of our country.  Also, great numbers of Americans are not willing to see both sides of a story.  I emphasize many, but not all.

    I'll be the first to admit this is true and its not a good way to build bridges amongst other nations, even though sometimes these ultra-proud Americans are right.  Nevertheless, I wish no one to make sweeping general judgements about all Americans because of the ignorance of a few.

[Axel]

Being an American myself, I can sometimes...

tripxcore, I fully agree to what you said. I wish more people would have a chance and be willing to live for some time in another country or society.

Everybody is proud of his/her own country, which is fine with me, but I try to listen to others and to learn. The results are great, I make friends that way, we might not always agree to each others ideas, but willing to discuss because both are willing to listen as well.

While travelling in the States I came across lots of people the way you discribed. OK, I can live with it and you know what, not a single time really unfriendly.

When I go back to my own country might have similar experience, perhaps the return cultural shock.

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

Hegemon.  Who would you have?

Hmmm, isn't that something like Pokemon?  In that case, put me down for Pikachu, i find the little yellow bugger irresistable..

Seriously though, the truth of the matter that most Americans are pretty darn ignorant.  But this is not a knock on the USA, as I also think most people in any country are pretty ignorant as well.  

Exhanges with people and viewpoints from other places can enlighten people and help to eradicate said ignorance, but the sad fact of the matter is the stress/shock of globalization and the spectre of terror in the post 9/11 world has led most people to reactions of xenophobia and nationalism.  When people feel threatened they tend to turn of their rational mind, and react purely on emotions - hence, we have the situation we have today.

just my 50 satang..

[SoCal]

Hi guys,

I truly think that it is a good question, and point of debate. When traveling, I always ask it of people who complain about America. Beats the heck out of arguing who flew our planes into the WTC.

Before 9/11 I saw myself as a citizen of the world, actually prefering other countries to my own, and agreeing with a good many points I see/hear about America(ns). That day wounded my heart to this day, and hopefully not forever.

This site has been one of my favorite places for almost a year. Somewhat of a respite from all the bulls**t in the world, and a way to keep in touch with LOS, until I can be there again.

You're right let's go talk about something more appealing, like Thailand.

[SoCal]

I don't give a rat ass about the US, it's a dump and I found the life over there boring. With the new prince in the WH, it will soon be a bigger dump.

-------------------------------------

Axel, are you going to stick to your guns?

Anyways, couldn't stop myself, as just read this.

Let's do go talk about something nicer.

[curveblade]

I myself have not noticed any real American bashing on this forum. An occasional sarcastic remark perhaps. I have seen on many occasions Americans, Brits and other westerners in countries other than their own acting in a manner that I doubt they would act in their own country. Loud, ill mannered, arrogant, dressed like a pig and generally acting superior, among other things. It's not surprising many third world countries hate us. Many snide remarks about Bush & Blair, as if everyone hated them, which is not the case.

To love Thailand is great. But to talk trash about one's own country...    Most Americans & Brits, while maybe not rich, did manage to get a decent education and haven't seen many days in their home country where they went hungry. If one really thinks his home country sucks and is this & that, etc. Then I think the only proper thing to do is to renounce your citizenship and never return to the filthy place again.

[plachon]

One national trait about Americans in general is that they're very sensitive to criticism of USA, whether in good humour or not. Now, that big generalisation having been said, I'll just add that I have many good American friends and we don't see eye to eye on all things, esp. re the USA's (both govt's and public's) reaction to 9/11 and the creation of a new enemy to replace the nasty, low-down Commies. But we're still friends.

Firstly, SoCal, why should the rest of the world have to accept having a hegmonious nation? PERIOD. Is it a healthy state of world affairs? And secondly, why do you guys think you're so free, fair and democratic anyway? It's a myth, that unfortunately, only Americans have trouble figuring. Mostly, you live in a dreamworld of your own making. Disneyworld on a national scale. When a true American hero and patriot like Noam Chomsky dares to hold the mirror up to see your reflection, the establishment trashes him. It's sad and pathetic and scary. Your leaders are out of control and the rest of the world is paying the price. You're not the cuddly, bouncy Tigger you think you are. Reality of the world outside US, has still not caught up in your national consciousness, so don't confuse the issues of US-govt.- bashing and American humouring. Two very different ball games that sometimes can be played on the same court.

Now for something completely different.........................

spotted in the pages of the Malaysian New Sunday Times, Oct. 5th, 2003, a wee piece about Bush's budding talents as a poet laureate, as he tried to woo wifey after her recent trip to Poland (?) and his jaunt on one of those tubs with enough firepower to annihilate half the world.

"Dear  Laura, Roses are red, violets are blue, oh my lump in the bed, I miss you."    

And another.........

"The distance my dear, has been such a barrier, next time you want an adventure, just land on a carrier".

Saints preserve us all! - this guy's in charge of your hegmony and you wonder what we're all worried about!!!!!!!!!!!!!And to think we worried about harmless old Ronald.

[TRIPxCORE]

And secondly, why do you guys think you're so free, fair and democratic anyway? It's a myth, that unfortunately, only Americans have trouble figuring. Mostly, you live in a dreamworld of your own making. Disneyworld on a national scale. When a true American hero and patriot like Noam Chomsky dares to hold the mirror up to see your reflection, the establishment trashes him. It's sad and pathetic and scary.

As an American, I agree with this statement about Noam Chomsky (intelligent individual) as well as the statement about Americans not being as free as we all think.

    My reasons for agreeing with this, and Chomsky has touched on it more than once, is because of something that not many people are willing to open their eyes and mind to.

    Globalisation is in fact truely happening on a wider scale than many think, and the forces controlling it are sinister in nature.  Now I have mentioned the New World Order on this board before and got no response to it.  As crazy and outlandish you may think it is, at least read up on it and be open-minded.  It will change your view of the world forever.

New World Order

[Axel]

Axel, are you going to stick to your guns?

No guns for sure. No anti- whatever, just my own thoughts.

I came onto this after somebody, discussing about lady-boys switched to the events over the last 2 years.

What I think about G.W.? "Dear  Laura, Roses are red, violets are blue, oh my lump in the bed, I miss you." says it all. It was this morning in the bangkok papers as well, great President!?

9/11: I used to have my office at WTC, when I worked for a diff. company. And some private info, which should show I do have feelings. When the US-embassy in Nairobi was attacked, my wife and son have been there. By a mistake they took a wrong bus and not the one which was shown on CNN burned out, so they where stnaidng one block away. Can you imagine my feeling from Friday night, when I heard the news until Saturday afternoon, when I finally got through on the phone? Knowing that they had to go downtown that day?

OK, no guns and no "Yank-bashing", I never do it. When we have the subject of hegemony I don't like it, Just found in google explaining the word as "The predominant influence, as of a state, region, or group, over another or others." Believe many don't want this, I FOR SURE DO NOT WANT IT.

Just realized, this thread is under FARANG PUB-FUN ....

We can talk about beer, wine, girls (don't tell to my wife) football (sorry no American football, I do not understand it)

Formula 1 - I do not like Montoya for his big mouth....

[SeaVisionBurma]

Hegemony:  "The predominant influence, as of a state, region, or group, over another or others."

BINGO!

Given that Axel's post puts the original statement back into perspective, and with the above definition given - this should be reason enough to drop the entire Hegemony statement.

Why should the rest of the world accept a mostly unwarranted, dominating influence of one single country over a multitude of others?

Does anyone wonder why there's so much insane, fanatical, terrorist violence in the early days of this new century?

Surely, to some degree, the weirdo bomb-trained fanatics out there draw at least some of their inspiration from an intense reaction to one country's perceived responsibility as the Hegemon?

Food for thought...

[taxexile]

if the usa withdrew its sphere of influence back to within its own national borders there would be a power vacuum in the world.

something would come and fill that vacuum.

the fastest growing power in the world today is fundamental/radical islam (as a political force.i dont mean as a religion.)

sometimes you need a guy with a big stick.

i would rather have the usa as the predominant world force rather than fundamental islam.

better the devil you know.

[Mali]

Dr. Pat_Pong,

Thanks. Glad you like it.

[SoCal]

Sea Vision Burma, Axel, Plachon, etc.,

The question was not should there be a hegemon. The question was who in history has had such great power, and handled it better than the U.S.? I think you will find the U.S. fairly restrained in this regard. The second question was who do you think would do a better job as hegemon? While I am not saying that you could not come up with an appropriate response, I think you must admit that the countries much worse than the U.S. are more plentiful than those who might do it better.

Plachon, you are #### right I am sensitive. 9/11 changed everything. That's what you guys don't get. Before 9/11 everyone compalined that GW wasn't interested in the world. Well you know what? You have our attention.

[taxexile]

the u.s.government has always been interested in the world.

(even though the u.s. population thinks the world ends at key west.)

it happily armed and supported bin laden in his fight against the russians and has been involved in numerous covert machinations all over the world.they cant stop interfering in the name of freedom and democracy.

the u.s. has been using its power to manipulate power struggles in  foriegn parts for over 100 years.(south america,s.e.asia,europe,eastern bloc,far east )

the u.s. has certainly not been restrained in its use of power.

its far too quick to threaten. and to  carry out those threats.

the local consequences of those interventions have never bothered the u.s. so long as the u.s. has gained its intended advantage.

just another form of collateral damage.

it is politics,i.e.hypocracy.

i dont think any other country,if they had such power ,would have behaved any differently.

the communists would have behaved worse i'm sure.

the toadying two faced europeans spend too much time argueing amongst themselves to ever be a world power although they like to think they are, and if they ever became as powerful as the u.s. their incompetence would make them a figure of ridicule rather than a figure of hate.

the rise of islam on a wave of radicalism does not bode well however,islamic doctrine is not noted for its tolerance, and whatever is written in the koran,the political reality would be very different.

what surprises me is how surprised the americans were after 9.11.

horrific as it was,it was only a matter of time before someone would try and land a punch on the u.s.

but they do have a fight on their hands now,and thankfully they have the will and the power to fight back.the rest of the world needs the u.s. now.

but if you look at  u.s. actions and policy through the eyes of a muslim,or someone from a poor country made poorer by the u.s. stranglehold on trade and selfish wastage of its resources then you would get a completely different answer and the hatred a lot of people feel towards the u.s. becomes easier to understand.

especially when they are forever being told how grateful they should feel towards the u.s.

but the u.s. is all we've got at the moment against a frightening upsurge of islamic terrorism and fundamentalism.

and for the time being more power to them.

[Axel]

Lots of food for thought. I had to attend a regular Monday-table tonight, where a couple of old-timers bring the world to order, cruised on Sukhumvit Soi 20, 7 and 5.

Had to comment to the regular Monday-question "Why you come home so late?" and was happy about the dog, (I mean a real, albeit small canine) who ALWAYS is happy to see me.

So I better dream now of "red roses and lumps in bed".

A side remark, tomorrow morning I will go to immigration in BKK, just routine, my pp was full, BUT, first time the embassy gave me a sep., signed and stamped letter to verify that my old pp had been transferred to new No. ...... (never happened

before. So I decided to go to IMHO myself, never happened b4. I just want to have a look.

[SoCal]

Taxexile, not sure if you are surprised, but by and large agree with you and your post.

The American people are mostly well intentioned, and often sadly self righteous. The government however is a whole other story, most often following the realism view of geo-political thought. Maybe this is why I tended to understand our being attacked abroad, and did not take as personal as the "sucker punch" of 9/11 that was more an attack against the people than the government itself.

I think the American government vis a vis other hegemons is fairly self restrained, and tends to dominate in terms of capitalism and the almighty dollar rather than the traditional forms of domination. Most countries opt "through the greed of their leaders" to be dominated as such.

As far as muslim nations, not sure I agree it is Americas fault. It is true that we prop up certain leaders (Egypt, Saudis), but this in not true of all muslim nations, and we are not the only western power doing so. Personaly I see the fault in these nations being two fold 1) Inadequate and self serving leaders blaming US to distract attention from themselves. 2) The media. Fact is that all the world is not ready to see the inequalities that exist in the world, and they are not ready to have western values (or lack there of) thrown in their face.

In my opinion islamic fundamentalism is the danger of this generation, and sadly a conflict that only they themselves can truly end, but are as yet unprepared to do. Call me an idiot, but it is my opinion that when people (both islamic and western) serve to beat down the US and rationalize the actions of these extremists, they are only fueling a fire which is very close to growing out of control.

Oh well, lunch is over on my part of the hemisphere. Bye.

[wolf5370]

Hegemony - domination, control, supremacy, dominion, power, authority.

The problem is with the USSR gone, the world is no longer stabilised. One superpower does mean hegemony. That is about as good a thing as a single party political system. With no stabilising force it runs away. Thucydides said "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely " , but in Greek - 400 BCE (though also attributed to Machiavelli and Lord Acton).

Every decision on the world stage will affect differing parties in different directions - there will always be an aggrieved party. The US sits with Damocles’ sword over its head – it can not please all the people all the time (or even any of the time). If it makes a move on what it, or the world, sees as a problem then it gains a temporary friend and a long time enemy and possibly condemnation for interfering. If it does nothing, it possibly gains two enemies and condemnation for standing back and not helping.

The only way around this (even if it only deflects away from the US and on to world consensus) is to use and follow the UN. That’s what it was set up for. You may not like its decisions, it may be biased, but it’s outside of hegemony which is just as extreme as subjugation (its antonym) - what is needed is the middle ground, not extremes.

[plachon]

Sea Vision Burma, Axel, Plachon, etc.,

The question was not should there be a hegemon. The question was who in history has had such great power, and handled it better than the U.S.? I think you will find the U.S. fairly restrained in this regard. The second question was who do you think would do a better job as hegemon? While I am not saying that you could not come up with an appropriate response, I think you must admit that the countries much worse than the U.S. are more plentiful than those who might do it better.

Plachon, you are #### right I am sensitive. 9/11 changed everything. That's what you guys don't get. Before 9/11 everyone compalined that GW wasn't interested in the world. Well you know what? You have our attention.

SoCal, you still don't get it do you? "11/9 changed everything". How many times have I heard that one? Yes, it did. It brought all the worst features out of the US and a sizable proportion of Americans. Revenge, hatred against Muslims, calls for blood-letting and a hundred other undesirable traits which you've all had satiated by your leaders (first in Afghanistan and now, Iraq, and the contuinuing genocide that goes on in Palestine/Israel - largely the US's doing). The decent, moderate and sensible minority who talked about constructive, peaceful engagement were were drowned out in the fury that followed.

I'm not defending the Islamic radicals, but in the overall scheme of things the what 3,000 people killed in NY, were a drop in the ocean compared to the millions that have died at the hands of direct US military intervention worldwide in the last 2 - 3 decades. Just take this small region. Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam have all felt the irrational anger and fears of the US's power in the recent past. It never ceases to amaze me that these 3 nations aren't swarming with "terrorists" with ill-will towards to US. But they're not. They've forgiven and gotten over it. The Arab nations are different entities altogether, and now the US govt's "stick" is just stirring up the hornet's nest even worse than before. You can't fight fire with fire, I guess that's the bottom line and you've taken the worst possible course of action in dealing with the problem.

[taxexile]

plachon,i can understand what you say,but if the arab/pakistani/indonesian/syrian/iranian etc. governments can't or wont stop the subversive islamic terrorists that reside within their borders from exporting their terror and propaganda then the u.s.must do it.nobody else has got the stomach for the job.

the u.s. has in the past been guilty of selfish foriegn intervention,including this years adventure in iraq,but this time(against terrorism) they are doing the right thing.

the last time they did the right thing was to save europe from the nazis.

if it were not for the u.s.right now then planes would be dropping out of the skies like flies.

those islamic radicals are crazy beyond belief and there is only one way to deal with them,and it does not involve sitting around a table in discussion with them.

it involves the use of a big stick,the bigger the better.

that is only one way to deal with terrorists.

if the palestinians had been better served by their muslim brothers over the past 50 years instead of being left to rot as pawns in a wider political game then there would be peace in the middle east now,the terrorists have been encouraged to operate there by their arab neighbours,the results being death and destruction of innocents on both sides.and a nation living as refugees in their own land. blame egypt,syria,iran,hamas and arafat more than the u.s.

those governments are duplicitous in the extreme,even with their own people.

once you rid the world of the madmen then common sense will take over.

you cant look to american history and say that because they killed millions in the 60's they are wrong to fight now.

they were wrong then,but that was then.

given half a chance and 100 years,radical islam will take us all back to the stone age.

they need to be stopped in their tracks.

as a fully paid up brit i find myself with the u.s. on this one.

(but only this one)

[singa-traz]

Let's have a break guys ... and play some card game:

http://www.reseauvoltaire.net/bushregimedeck.html

[taxexile]

Let's have a break guys ... and play some card game:

a break ????  i havent even warmed up yet.