Royal Police Want 30k Baht To Erase Gambling Incident From Wife's Report For Visa

[jimb]

My wife just went to the Bangkok police to get the required police record for her visa to the U.S., but they told her she needs to pay 30,000 baht to get a clean record. Evidently she got a mark on her record for gambling a few months ago while playing cards in her village. She thought it wasn't on her record since she paid the local police 1,200 baht, but evidently it is. Are there any other options that anyone knows of to clear this other than paying the bribe or is that the only thing to do? I was thinking that dealing with her village police might be cheaper, but don't know if that is feasible or not. Appreciate any help.

[Mario2008]

Illegal actions, such as bribing an offical, are not allowed to be discussed on the forum. So stick to discussing other possibilities. but you might want to inquire with a lawyer.

Having paid a fine is of course not the same as a conviction, but I don't know if that matters.

[steven100]

My wife just went to the Bangkok police to get the required police record for her visa to the U.S., but they told her she needs to pay 30,000 baht to get a clean record. Evidently she got a mark on her record for gambling a few months ago while playing cards in her village. She thought it wasn't on her record since she paid the local police 1,200 baht, but evidently it is. Are there any other options that anyone knows of to clear this other than paying the bribe or is that the only thing to do? I was thinking that dealing with her village police might be cheaper, but don't know if that is feasible or not. Appreciate any help.

jimb , even though the 1,200 baht was paid locally , I wouldn't think that contacting them again to do anything about it would be a good idea.

It just sounds like a bad situation that didn't pan out to good.

Remember , this is Thailand & the rule is pay for the " get out of jail free card " so I don't really see any other option but to pay the RTP the 30k.

GL

cheers

[slapout]

Tell the Bangkok police you want the police record, tell them the gambling fine/conviction, if they want to include it is fine with you, as it has no bearing on the visa application. Then see what the reaction is from the bib. If this is for your wife (legal marriage), I would much rather present the document , with a explanation, if it is even requested.

[saintofsilence]

My wife just went to the Bangkok police to get the required police record for her visa to the U.S., but they told her she needs to pay 30,000 baht to get a clean record. Evidently she got a mark on her record for gambling a few months ago while playing cards in her village. She thought it wasn't on her record since she paid the local police 1,200 baht, but evidently it is. Are there any other options that anyone knows of to clear this other than paying the bribe or is that the only thing to do? I was thinking that dealing with her village police might be cheaper, but don't know if that is feasible or not. Appreciate any help.

This hapenned a long time back also but it was only 10 thousand baht that an official wanted in his hand before the application could be moved from the bottom of the pile which would take a very long time to clear.

Once again corruption at all levels in thailand.

[Mosha]

Before I handed over one cetang, I would have a chat with the embassy. Is gambling illegal in the US? In my experience she was unlucky to get caught, in my 6 years here I only heard about 2 raids. In both instances the whistle blowers had a problem with one person who was playing cards. The 1st one caught the MIL which I did find amusing.

[toptuan]

Gambling is illegal or legal in the US depending on the state. For example gambling is illegal in Utah, but encouraged in neighboring Nevada (guess where all the Utah gamblers go every weekend?). In Washington State, gambling is only allowed on Indian reservations which have their own national laws. Possibly, the gambling "conviction" will be looked upon with a grain of salt by the reviewing staff at the embassy (unless they're from Utah, of course )

[Hawaiian]

Before I handed over one cetang, I would have a chat with the embassy. Is gambling illegal in the US? In my experience she was unlucky to get caught, in my 6 years here I only heard about 2 raids. In both instances the whistle blowers had a problem with one person who was playing cards. The 1st one caught the MIL which I did find amusing.

Have to agree. If she was involved in a gambling operation then it would probably be a more serious offense that you would want expunged.

In our state the law has been amended to allow friendly card games even if money is involved. It becomes illegal if the house takes its cut.

[saintofsilence]

Before I handed over one cetang, I would have a chat with the embassy. Is gambling illegal in the US? In my experience she was unlucky to get caught, in my 6 years here I only heard about 2 raids. In both instances the whistle blowers had a problem with one person who was playing cards. The 1st one caught the MIL which I did find amusing.

Have to agree. If she was involved in a gambling operation then it would probably be a more serious offense that you would want expunged.

In our state the law has been amended to allow friendly card games even if money is involved. It becomes illegal if the house takes its cut.

It doesn't matter about if its legal or illegal in another country it is what shows on the police report included with the application and in this case she is listed as a criminal just for playing cards.

[noahvail]

Seems to me that the US is difficult enough to get into, without having a police record. If you take the record as is, and they approve the visa, no problems. If you take the record as is, and they refuse the visa because of it, then they have it on file forever, and the chances of getting a visa in the future might well be diminished. Of course, taking the record as is and they issue the visa now, does not mean that the record won't be brought up at a future date, whether it be for another visa, permanent residency, a green card, or citizenship. I guess I'd vote for the clean record if that can be obtained through proper channels Whichever way you decide, good luck to you

[malcolminthemiddle]

When my wife applied for and received her visit visa to the US I can't remember her having to provide an official document establishing she had a clean police record or otherwise?

Edited August 12, 2009 by malcolminthemiddle

[SMEEERE]

I dont beleive it,.someone trying it on for 30.000 baht id say, and may be closer to home than you think, have you seen this in black and white ?

[MikeRay]

I dont beleive it,.someone trying it on for 30.000 baht id say, and may be closer to home than you think, wink.gif have you seen this in black and white ? dry.gif

That was my first thought,too.

Have you been with her when she applied for her passport? How good is your Thai?

How long are you married?

In my guess it is a very rare occasion that BIB take a bribe and file the misdoing.

And then send the file to BKK by post? I haven´t seen the BIB using internet in the villages and surrounded towns where my wifes come from.

Edited August 12, 2009 by MikeRay

[saintofsilence]

I dont beleive it,.someone trying it on for 30.000 baht id say, and may be closer to home than you think, wink.gif have you seen this in black and white ? dry.gif

That was my first thought,too.

Have you been with her when she applied for her passport? How good is your Thai?

How long are you married?

In my guess it is a very rare occasion that BIB take a bribe and file the misdoing.

And then send the file to BKK by post? I haven´t seen the BIB using internet in the villages and surrounded towns where my wifes come from.

You guys must be wearing rose colured glasses it does happen.

Edited August 12, 2009 by saintofsilence

[7by7]

As far as the UK is concerned, only convictions which could have attracted a term of imprisonment of 12 months or more if the offence had been committed in the UK are taken into account during the visa application process.

Also, any convictions considered “spent” under the The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 are ignored.

Does not the USA have something similar?

[Bukseeda]

Considering you couldn't "cleanse" such a record in most countries, i think this is actually quite a good deal. And better to be safe than sorry. Imagine the regret if it was the reason it was refused.

[Mossfinn]

As far as the UK is concerned, only convictions which could have attracted a term of imprisonment of 12 months or more if the offence had been committed in the UK are taken into account during the visa application process.

'7, any chance of a link or quote, not that I doubt it, but I have just never seen it written in such a black & white statement.

I looked into the problems of a caution before when a guy on this forum requested info regarding a police caution for his wife and I read it as just an official warning, obviously not a conviction and shouldn't have an effect on any future applications.

However, what I read, was any further, or continued transgressions could lead to the courts taking a dim view and could lead to further and increased sanction, and hence problems with future visa applications, nowhere did I see anything as black and white as anything below 12 months as being inconsequential.

I would appreciate clarification as I gave this guy advice on here and a separate poster elsewhere regarding the same subject

Cheers

[the scouser]

It's not as simple as possible 12-month convictions attracting refusal. See paragraph 320(19) of the Immigration Rules, which allows the ECO, depending upon the overall circumstances, to refuse on grounds of character, conduct, etc., and does not require a conviction at all.

Likewise, I've seen a visitor refused a visa under para 320(18) because of a conviction in a Middle-Eastern country for prostitution, and for which she was sentenced to a term of imprisonment in excess of 12 months. The refusing ECO didn't have the nous to appreciate that the comparison is "if the offence had been committed in the UK", where prostitution, per se, is not illegal. Needless to say, the case was won at judicial review and the visa issued.

Scouse.

[mmcsusnret]

I would also be concerned that having something "cleansed" from a record could come back to haunt you. What if another request is made in the future that indicates that this was "newly discovered information" and by all rights should be sent to the embassy even after she gets her visa, which could be revoked if the visa folks found out, unless you "contribute" another amount to another officer. The problem is that once you break the law by paying a bribe, you possibly leave yourself open to further requests of money or even possibly criminal charges by either or both Thai and US officials.

If it truly is a minor, friendly game she was caught in, I would think it better to take my chances with the embassy, even to pointing out the precise details and the request for the bribe. If it was something more in depth such as the organinzed underground lottery that was ongoing for a long time, you may have to make a tough decision and take your chances. Honesty is usually the best policy.

Hope things work out for you and your lady.

Another possibility would be to email or call the US State Department (in the US not in Thaland!) and ask them, or even better maybe have a friend or relative do it so as your details would possibly remain not conected directly with your case.

Edited August 13, 2009 by mmcsusnret

[Arkady]

I would also be concerned that having something "cleansed" from a record could come back to haunt you. What if another request is made in the future that indicates that this was "newly discovered information" and by all rights should be sent to the embassy even after she gets her visa, which could be revoked if the visa folks found out, unless you "contribute" another amount to another officer. The problem is that once you break the law by paying a bribe, you possibly leave yourself open to further requests of money or even possibly criminal charges by either or both Thai and US officials.

If it truly is a minor, friendly game she was caught in, I would think it better to take my chances with the embassy, even to pointing out the precise details and the request for the bribe. If it was something more in depth such as the organinzed underground lottery that was ongoing for a long time, you may have to make a tough decision and take your chances. Honesty is usually the best policy.

Hope things work out for you and your lady.

Another possibility would be to email or call the US State Department (in the US not in Thaland!) and ask them, or even better maybe have a friend or relative do it so as your details would possibly remain not conected directly with your case.

Unfortunately there are too many instances of embassy visa officers acting unreasonably for it to be worth your while relying on hope that one will act reasonably in your wife's case and will be interested in listening to the explanation that this was only a teeny weeny little criminal offence. If it is really important to get the visa, I would think you should try to clear the record but 30k sounds outrageous to clear a village card game. A farang told me he paid Bkk's finest 20k to clear his drunk driving conviction the day after he was convicted, a service they promoted to him as part of the arrest and conviction package. Your wife should try bargaining with them. On the other hand, they know they have leverage because she needs the clean record now. There is always the risk that a "cleared" conviction will pop up again to haunt her again in the future but there seems to be an even higher risk that she will not get the visa if she does nothing about it. The police claim that they clear the convictions from the computer completely but your wife should enquire in detail what she would get for the money.

BTW don't forget that the crazy Ozzie Shiela who was convicted of stealing the floor mat in the Australian bar in Phuket and fined B1,000 was later denied a US visa on the grounds she had a criminal record. And Ozzies don't get interviewed and grilled for US visas either. They just have to apply on line like we do to get an Australian visa.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Arkady

[7by7]

As far as the UK is concerned, only convictions which could have attracted a term of imprisonment of 12 months or more if the offence had been committed in the UK are taken into account during the visa application process.

'7, any chance of a link or quote, not that I doubt it, but I have just never seen it written in such a black & white statement.

As Scouse has said, the relevant part of the immigration rules is Para 320(18).

See also the Entry Clearance Guidance, RFL3.7 Refusal on the grounds of criminal convictions – 320(18), which includes

Paragraph 320(18) will not apply where an applicant has been cautioned.

[Mossfinn]

As far as the UK is concerned, only convictions which could have attracted a term of imprisonment of 12 months or more if the offence had been committed in the UK are taken into account during the visa application process.

'7, any chance of a link or quote, not that I doubt it, but I have just never seen it written in such a black & white statement.

As Scouse has said, the relevant part of the immigration rules is Para 320(18).

See also the Entry Clearance Guidance, RFL3.7 Refusal on the grounds of criminal convictions – 320(18), which includes

Paragraph 320(18) will not apply where an applicant has been cautioned.

As you are obviously aware, I have totally misunderstood your earlier post and was questioning that a mere caution could involve the penalties that I had obviously dreamed into the post.

I have no explanation for my mistake, except for the rather fine single malt I was partaking of at the time

[mmcsusnret]

This is the main US State Department webpage. http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/ineligib...ities_1364.html.

Having just recently gotten the police certificate for my wife the certificate is simple, It states that "Name and ID info is a berson with no behavior endangering the peace and order or the security of the state and then signed by the police".

I would go ahead and get it without the bribe to see exactly what it says. It is mailed to you or your wife. See if the charge or more importantly a conviction is even listed. The mentioning of the gambling incident could just be a scare tactic to get some loot. If the certificate includes the incident, you need to know exactly what is says anyway, and then decide if it will affect her visa application. If it only charged or alleged and not a conviction, I think that it would be overlooked. A 1200 baht fine is like a traffic ticket in my thinking.

I would be inclined to believe that the local police filed an incident report but probably no charges were filed, so she was not prosecuted, therefore not convicted. The Special Branch sees the report and an opportunity to collect from a walkng ATM.

Don't pay the bribe, get the certificate to see what it says then go from there. You can always backtrack and get another certificate by complying to the "request" later.

[saintofsilence]

This is the main US State Department webpage. http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/ineligib...ities_1364.html.

Having just recently gotten the police certificate for my wife the certificate is simple, It states that "Name and ID info is a berson with no behavior endangering the peace and order or the security of the state and then signed by the police".

I would go ahead and get it without the bribe to see exactly what it says. It is mailed to you or your wife. See if the charge or more importantly a conviction is even listed. The mentioning of the gambling incident could just be a scare tactic to get some loot. If the certificate includes the incident, you need to know exactly what is says anyway, and then decide if it will affect her visa application. If it only charged or alleged and not a conviction, I think that it would be overlooked. A 1200 baht fine is like a traffic ticket in my thinking.

I would be inclined to believe that the local police filed an incident report but probably no charges were filed, so she was not prosecuted, therefore not convicted. The Special Branch sees the report and an opportunity to collect from a walkng ATM.

Don't pay the bribe, get the certificate to see what it says then go from there. You can always backtrack and get another certificate by complying to the "request" later.

By doing this and not paying the bribe it will be a very long and slow process and the applicant has probably been told that there are thousands of applicants in front of hers.

[mmcsusnret]

I'll grant you that it "might" be a very long and slow process and they "might" be told that there are thousands of applicants in front of hers. They "might" save 30K baht and get the certicate to at least see what it says and then decide if it will be a problem. They "might" get a different and more honest (or cheaper) Special Branch Officer if the reapply. They "might" have nothing to worry about. But, they will never know if they roll over on their back and throw their legs into the air, by paying the bribe, committing fraud, and committing a crime.

The Special Branch RTP must have some honest officers who could be complained to if the paperwork gets "lost". Another, option is to take a witness (be it a friend, lawyer, or reporter) to observe the "transaction" if they decide to risk paying the bribe. It may not be easy, but it is honest and the right thing to do.

[saintofsilence]

I'll grant you that it "might" be a very long and slow process and they "might" be told that there are thousands of applicants in front of hers. They "might" save 30K baht and get the certicate to at least see what it says and then decide if it will be a problem. They "might" get a different and more honest (or cheaper) Special Branch Officer if the reapply. They "might" have nothing to worry about. But, they will never know if they roll over on their back and throw their legs into the air, by paying the bribe, committing fraud, and committing a crime.

The Special Branch RTP must have some honest officers who could be complained to if the paperwork gets "lost". Another, option is to take a witness (be it a friend, lawyer, or reporter) to observe the "transaction" if they decide to risk paying the bribe. It may not be easy, but it is honest and the right thing to do.

I am not telling them what they should do and I definetly don't support the Special Branch Officer for wanting a 30k bribe , but I am sure that this is not a one off and is wide spread and it probably would be hard to find an honest officer , what are you going to do interview them and ask them if they are corrupt ?.

This is just another example of corruption in thailand and clearing police records for a bribe surely is a big security issue for other countrys.

I bet there are thousands of applicants that have paid this money and got visas with much worst crimes than just playing cards.

Edited August 14, 2009 by saintofsilence

[saintofsilence]

My suggestion in this case to the OP is get an agent to submit the application as I don't think they are subject to the same treatment.

Make sure you get quotes from different agents first.

[mmcsusnret]

I have personaly been to the Special Branch RTP on 4 occasions with three different people (my wife twice and 2 friends) and each time had no problems or requests for extra money. The officers that I encountered were helpful and professional. If they get a clearance as is (without cleansing) at least they will know what it says, not mere speculation. They can reapply later and try again to get another clearance certificate, and aim for a different officer, if they feel that the incident being included is a show stopper for the visa.

If they use an agent, they will escort her to the Special Branch to do the same thing, possibly ending up paying the 30K baht and the agents fee ($1500 - $3500, quotes I have been given within the last 8 months) and then find out that there was nothing to worry about. The agent will get the same treatment (and possibly a cut) by going along with the extorntionist.

In the US Navy we called this type of offer to remove a problem "Run it up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes". Translation: let's see if we can scare this applicant into giving us some money by mentioning this nothing incident (especially if she went without her sponser) because many Thai ladies are easy to confuse when dealing with officials and tend to believe what they are told by that official, where having an interested outsider there will be able to spot the flaw in the officials statements (by the way each time I went to SB the officers spoke and understood adequate English).

By the way, I guess you missed the word "witness" in asking if I was going to interview them to see if they were corrupt. If you were crooked, asking to do something illegal for cash, would you want a lot of people watching the transaction. I don't think that I would, especially with the minature sizes of cameras and recording devices.

[saintofsilence]

Your missing the point you would not be asked unless your wife or friends had criminal records .

Also I don't beleive the agents would take there client to the Special Branch , I have never used an agent but I spoke to one once and it was my understanding that you left everything up to them.

Anyway I feel the way the system is set up now and it seems that people are paying bribes to the Special Branch that these officers won't change and the unfortunate applicant have two options pay the requested money or stand in line and wait their turn which could be a long time .

Most applicants want there applications processed in the shortest time possible and running it up the flag pole wont do that.

You must know yourself everyday corruption rears it ugly head in thailand and many times in high up places .

Makes it hard for honest people like all of us.

Edited August 14, 2009 by saintofsilence