A Tree Thread

[femi fan]

After the wet season i'll be wanting to do a lot of planting of trees and so on.

I'm wondering if anyone out there is a tree expert, or knows of any english-speaking tree experts. I know some trees and plants like certain conditions and don't like others, and so i'm interested in what's particularly good for chiang mai's soil and climate. I would ideally like to come across someone in the tree business who can help advise me on what to get, obviously this would be paid consultancy so to speak.

In addition, being a tree-lover, my other idea for this thread was to ask posters to nominate their favourite tree in chiang mai. After all chiang mai is blessed with some stunning trees. I'll kick off by nominating the huge rain tree by the clubhouse at the gymkhana. What a truly glorious spectacle it is, and food and beer taste imminently better sitting next to it!

It could also become a thread for gardening in general, since i'm also interested in fruit trees, and at some point growing some vegetables too, and i would imagine there's a few others out there who do this.

It could really just be a thread on anything to do with green life!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

A good place is the Queen Sirikit Botanical Gardens. Way at the end near the restauant they sell various tree seedlings, and often there are people around who know what they're talking about.

And then there's Kham Thiang plant market of course.

As for soil, it differs a lot; if you have a typical garden in a gated development then it's very likely the land has been raised with dead grit blasted out of a mountain somewhere. That's not the best soil to grow anything in.

[elektrified]

Try going to the Agriculture Festival at Mae Jo University. I'm not sure when it is - perhaps November or December. There are tree and plant farmers from all over Thailand that will talk with you and advise you all day long! Many have Masters and Ph.D.'s and most speak English. You can also pick up all your trees there. Some trees are as little as 20 Baht each while others are much more. There are also beautiful plants and flowers.

[femi fan]

A good place is the Queen Sirikit Botanical Gardens. Way at the end near the restauant they sell various tree seedlings, and often there are people around who know what they're talking about.

And then there's Kham Thiang plant market of course.

As for soil, it differs a lot; if you have a typical garden in a gated development then it's very likely the land has been raised with dead grit blasted out of a mountain somewhere. That's not the best soil to grow anything in.

thanks for the QS tip. I'll follow that one up.

The soil is in an area where rice and soya was being grown. Sanpatong area.

I know about the market, but if anybody has any specific places there to recommend, great! But they have to be able to converse properly in english because my thai is not up to the specific language of trees and gardening.

[femi fan]

drtreelove, did you want to say something?! Coz you only quoted my OP.

And elektrified, thanks for reminding me of that festival. Anyone know when it will be on?

[orang37]

I'm wondering if anyone out there is a tree expert, or knows of any english-speaking tree experts.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Femi Fan,

We are lucky : we have in Chiang Mai, a wonderful farang, Dr. TreeLove ! He is someone who really knows trees and plants.

And, I am sure he will speak to you, soon, here.

best, ~o:37;

Edited August 17, 2009 by orang37

[drtreelove]

I recommend that you plant now, during the rainy, growing season, so that your plants get off to a good start before drought conditions set in and the winter slow down.

Soils vary from sticky rice land, to heavy clay housing development fill, to dredged river silt, to rocky foothills. Best to know what you are planting in, but I can guarantee you that what ever it is it will be low in organic matter content; so plan on incorporating compost or other organic matter to build soil fertility.

Stick with northern Thailand natives or plants that are adaptable to the monsoon climate at this elevation. All tropical and subtropical plants can not be used. Alot depends on if you are going to irrigate through the dry season or not. If not, you are more limited in selection.

You may want to take a look on the Plants, Pets and Vets forum, and the Farming in Thailand forum, and search on this CM forum for trees and plants threads; there have been many and some very good information discussed.

Besides the Queen Sirikit Botanical Garden already mentioned, check out Dokmai Garden in Hang Dong, www.dokmaigarden.co.th and go for a visit sometime, they have lots of plantings and good information, including a new program of horticulture seminars, and they sell some books that you may find useful. I just gave a couple of pruning classes there, and Eric, the resident PhD plant physiologist just presented a program on growing plants in Chiang Mai.

Horizon botanical garden on the Doi Saket hwy has a pretty good palm tree collection.

There is a garden club connected with the CM Expats club, and another one that is a small group and by invitation only; ask at Dokmai garden.

There is a landscape architect who knows tree selection, Khun Pin has a degree from Mae Jo University and is based at Kamtieng plant market, but she currently has a big project out of town and is not very available lately. PM me for her contact information.

Horticraft Co Ltd does landscape design and installations. PM me for contact info.

I can help you with tree care information and planting preparation, but I'm weak on selection because I'm still learning all the species here.

The best native tree identification person that I know in Chiang Mai is environmentalist Ricky Ward of International Citizens of Chiang Mai www.ourchiangmai.com He organizes tree plantings that you may want to get involved with.

Chiang Mai Friends also do some tree plantings.

Read the 'Greenfingers' column each Sunday in Bangkok post 'Brunch' section, by Normita T. And check out the forum connected with her work.

The 100 year old raintree at the Gymkana club is awesome; I was just there a couple of weeks ago for a consultation on some work it needs. But the raintree in the photo I use as my avatar is bigger and older, (on the grounds of the old French school, on the river off Charoen Pratet) reportedly 300 yrs. Here's a PDF of my article on raintrees and they are my vote for favorite, although I love all the gorgeous flowering trees too.

Raintree.pdf

[getgoin]

Yes, Royal Poincianas, I just planted about 50. One of the most beautiful trees but subject to termites. I have alot of flowering bushes also. PM me.

[xen]

A book that may be valuable for you is A Field Guide to Forest Trees of Northern Thailand by Simon Gardner,Pindar Sidisunthorn and Vilaiwan Anusarnsunthorn. published by Kobfai Publishing.(2007)

I paid 1100THB for mine in Asia books (i think)

Excellent reference book , particularlily for identification, lots of photos and descriptions of bark, fruit, natural habitat etc.

[drtreelove]

Yes, Royal Poincianas, I just planted about 50. One of the most beautiful trees but subject to termites. I have alot of flowering bushes also. PM me.

Yes a spectacular beauty; Royal Poinciana as it's called in Hawaii is named Hawng Nok Yueng here (tail of the peacock); flame of the forest and flame tree are other common names; the botanical name is Delonix regia, a native of Madagascar; very popular here, flowers best when not irrigated through the dry season (after its established; better water until it has an extensive root system).

I don't know what you mean by subject to termites. Termites will infest the lower trunk of many trees, especially if there is exposed dead wood in the form of stubs or wounds that expose inactive heartwood; they usually don't infest live tissue. Don't pile up soil or mulch around the base of the tree trunk (in spite of local practices), and do a regular weekly maintenance inpection where you can spot termite soil encrustations on the bark, working their way up the tree. Scrape those off and spray a protective barrier of insecticide drench on the lower stem and root collar. PM me for exact chemical choice and mixing directions.

Edited August 18, 2009 by drtreelove

[drtreelove]

A book that may be valuable for you is A Field Guide to Forest Trees of Northern Thailand by Simon Gardner,Pindar Sidisunthorn and Vilaiwan Anusarnsunthorn. published by Kobfai Publishing.(2007)

I paid 1100THB for mine in Asia books (i think)

Excellent reference book , particularlily for identification, lots of photos and descriptions of bark, fruit, natural habitat etc.

An excellent book for reference and identification. But very scientific and may not be too useful for the casual gardener who is looking for practical growing information. It only lists natives, so don't expect to find raintree or poinciana or other exotics.

I paid 850 a few years ago, has it gone up that much? Available at DK or Surawong too, Gecko Books may have a second hand copy.

[Greenside]

Besides the Queen Sirikit Botanical Garden already mentioned, check out Dokmai Garden in Hang Dong, www.dokmaigarden.co.th and go for a visit sometime, they have lots of plantings and good information, including a new program of horticulture seminars, and they sell some books that you may find useful. I just gave a couple of pruning classes there, and Eric, the resident PhD plant physiologist just presented a program on growing plants in Chiang Mai.

I second the Dokmai Garden suggestion. My family went there last week and took Eric's guided tour around the place and were very impressed with his ambitious project. It's in it's early stages but it should turn into a really good resource for gardening folks and those simply interested to know the names of all the great tropical and monsoon plants around us.

Almost everything has a well written sign in Thai, English and Japanese and in addition to all the usual flora you can come across the occasional surprise.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Greenside

[cmjantje]

I recommend that you plant now, during the rainy, growing season, so that your plants get off to a good start before drought conditions set in and the winter slow down.

Soils vary from sticky rice land, to heavy clay housing development fill, to dredged river silt, to rocky foothills. Best to know what you are planting in, but I can guarantee you that what ever it is it will be low in organic matter content; so plan on incorporating compost or other organic matter to build soil fertility.

Stick with northern Thailand natives or plants that are adaptable to the monsoon climate at this elevation. All tropical and subtropical plants can not be used. Alot depends on if you are going to irrigate through the dry season or not. If not, you are more limited in selection.

You may want to take a look on the Plants, Pets and Vets forum, and the Farming in Thailand forum, and search on this CM forum for trees and plants threads; there have been many and some very good information discussed.

Besides the Queen Sirikit Botanical Garden already mentioned, check out Dokmai Garden in Hang Dong, www.dokmaigarden.co.th and go for a visit sometime, they have lots of plantings and good information, including a new program of horticulture seminars, and they sell some books that you may find useful. I just gave a couple of pruning classes there, and Eric, the resident PhD plant physiologist just presented a program on growing plants in Chiang Mai.

Horizon botanical garden on the Doi Saket hwy has a pretty good palm tree collection.

There is a garden club connected with the CM Expats club, and another one that is a small group and by invitation only; ask at Dokmai garden.

There is a landscape architect who knows tree selection, Khun Pin has a degree from Mae Jo University and is based at Kamtieng plant market, but she currently has a big project out of town and is not very available lately. PM me for her contact information.

Horticraft Co Ltd does landscape design and installations. PM me for contact info.

I can help you with tree care information and planting preparation, but I'm weak on selection because I'm still learning all the species here.

The best native tree identification person that I know in Chiang Mai is environmentalist Ricky Ward of International Citizens of Chiang Mai www.ourchiangmai.com He organizes tree plantings that you may want to get involved with.

Chiang Mai Friends also do some tree plantings.

Read the 'Greenfingers' column each Sunday in Bangkok post 'Brunch' section, by Normita T. And check out the forum connected with her work.

The 100 year old raintree at the Gymkana club is awesome; I was just there a couple of weeks ago for a consultation on some work it needs. But the raintree in the photo I use as my avatar is bigger and older, (on the grounds of the old French school, on the river off Charoen Pratet) reportedly 300 yrs. Here's a PDF of my article on raintrees and they are my vote for favorite, although I love all the gorgeous flowering trees too.

Trying to visit the site of Dokmai, my virus controller gave me the following message:

The website at www.dokmaigarden.co.th contains elements from the site ciqx.in, which appears to host malware – software that can hurt your computer or otherwise operate without your consent. Just visiting a site that contains malware can infect your computer.

[Steve2UK]

Trying to visit the site of Dokmai, my virus controller gave me the following message:

The website at www.dokmaigarden.co.th contains elements from the site ciqx.in, which appears to host malware – software that can hurt your computer or otherwise operate without your consent. Just visiting a site that contains malware can infect your computer.

Good to be careful, but I had no problem/warning visiting the Dokmai site just now - and I have a lot of sophisticated "sniffer" stuff installed. Looks OK to me.

[femi fan]

Wow, i'm overwhelmed with the great responses! Thanks to everyone, and bear with me to get back to you if i need to. I really am starting almost from scratch, both knowledge-wise, and land-wise since it's not got single plant on it, save for the soya that used to grow there!

[femi fan]

I recommend that you plant now, during the rainy, growing season, so that your plants get off to a good start before drought conditions set in and the winter slow down.

Soils vary from sticky rice land, to heavy clay housing development fill, to dredged river silt, to rocky foothills. Best to know what you are planting in, but I can guarantee you that what ever it is it will be low in organic matter content; so plan on incorporating compost or other organic matter to build soil fertility.

Stick with northern Thailand natives or plants that are adaptable to the monsoon climate at this elevation. All tropical and subtropical plants can not be used. Alot depends on if you are going to irrigate through the dry season or not. If not, you are more limited in selection.

Many thanks for such a long and useful reply dr! Limited time now, but can i address these issues first...

I thought of getting started in the rainy season for those reasons, but it's been recommended we wait until it's finished! Reason being that the land can only be accessed via my wife's father's small orchard, and since we need several truckloads of earth to help fill the land, it would ruin his orchard turning it into a mudbath! So i think our hands are tied really.

We will have to plan carefully regarding the sequence of jobs we do. Basically the land is just over two rai, and used to be used for cultivating soya bean, at least i'm pretty sure on that, i'll ask my wife when i get home. But it does/did have channels that allowed the water to come in at certain times - is this what you mean by irrigating the land? So i guess while it's not sticky rice land per se, it's soya land, if that means anything.

I was also concerned whether the soil and earth had been contaminated with pesticides and the like. I really want to avoid chemicals. I have anticipated that some good soil will be needed, but not sure where the bulk of the earth should come from that we need to fill the land. We do plan to dig a portion of the land so that we can have a lake, would you think using the earth from that to help level out the rest of the land is a good thing, or will it be too unconducieve to growing trees and plants and so on? It seems to me that since a crop has been grown there until now that the earth must be at least reasonable.

Surrounding the land are other fields with something growing, can't recall if it was rice or not. Can you let me know better what you mean by irrigating the land? I know the borders of our land have channels for delivering water to the surrounding fields and land.

One of the reasons i wanted to find an advisor was exactly to make sure we were getting natives and not other stuff that would struggle to grow or have problems with the climate.

Meanwhile, thanks again for your generous reply. Must finish work before i get back here!

[IanForbes]

I just came back from an amazing trip in the wilderness of BC and saw some fantastic trees and an incredible garden that is being restored. Bernt Ronning was a fur trapper on northern Vancouver Island from 1910 until the early 1960s. He was also a botanist. He homesteaded a small piece of land and turned it into a living museum of plants from around the world. There are over 100 trees identified from all parts of the globe, and untold numbers of smaller plants, with more being discovered all the time. He had a male and a female monkey puzzle tree and nurtured many new ones. There is a giant sequoia that is 2 meters on the stump, but will grow much bigger in time. I'll post a few photos when I get them sorted and downsized.

[dokmaigarden]

Trying to visit the site of Dokmai, my virus controller gave me the following message:

The website at www.dokmaigarden.co.th contains elements from the site ciqx.in, which appears to host malware – software that can hurt your computer or otherwise operate without your consent. Just visiting a site that contains malware can infect your computer.

Good to be careful, but I had no problem/warning visiting the Dokmai site just now - and I have a lot of sophisticated "sniffer" stuff installed. Looks OK to me.

We are sorry about the virus, which caused our webhotel problems for a week. Even the police got their site infected, but we are safe and sound now. Welcome to visit our website, which contains a map and a list of 790 plant species. Eric Danell & Ketsanee Seehamongkol, Dokmai Garden.

[drtreelove]

I recommend that you plant now, during the rainy, growing season, so that your plants get off to a good start before drought conditions set in and the winter slow down.

Soils vary from sticky rice land, to heavy clay housing development fill, to dredged river silt, to rocky foothills. Best to know what you are planting in, but I can guarantee you that what ever it is it will be low in organic matter content; so plan on incorporating compost or other organic matter to build soil fertility.

Stick with northern Thailand natives or plants that are adaptable to the monsoon climate at this elevation. All tropical and subtropical plants can not be used. Alot depends on if you are going to irrigate through the dry season or not. If not, you are more limited in selection.

Many thanks for such a long and useful reply dr! Limited time now, but can i address these issues first...

I thought of getting started in the rainy season for those reasons, but it's been recommended we wait until it's finished! Reason being that the land can only be accessed via my wife's father's small orchard, and since we need several truckloads of earth to help fill the land, it would ruin his orchard turning it into a mudbath! So i think our hands are tied really.

We will have to plan carefully regarding the sequence of jobs we do. Basically the land is just over two rai, and used to be used for cultivating soya bean, at least i'm pretty sure on that, i'll ask my wife when i get home. But it does/did have channels that allowed the water to come in at certain times - is this what you mean by irrigating the land? So i guess while it's not sticky rice land per se, it's soya land, if that means anything.

I was also concerned whether the soil and earth had been contaminated with pesticides and the like. I really want to avoid chemicals. I have anticipated that some good soil will be needed, but not sure where the bulk of the earth should come from that we need to fill the land. We do plan to dig a portion of the land so that we can have a lake, would you think using the earth from that to help level out the rest of the land is a good thing, or will it be too unconducieve to growing trees and plants and so on? It seems to me that since a crop has been grown there until now that the earth must be at least reasonable.

Surrounding the land are other fields with something growing, can't recall if it was rice or not. Can you let me know better what you mean by irrigating the land? I know the borders of our land have channels for delivering water to the surrounding fields and land.

One of the reasons i wanted to find an advisor was exactly to make sure we were getting natives and not other stuff that would struggle to grow or have problems with the climate.

Meanwhile, thanks again for your generous reply. Must finish work before i get back here!

Sorry I botched and lost my reply to your PM; I admit I'm a keyboard klutz, probably due to so many years of chain saw vibration and rope climbing. I'll re-write it now for the benefit of others.

Soybeans are often grown in rotation with rice on the same fields in the alternate season.

Your existing irrigation channels may not be effective when you raise the grade. You must take that into consideration in your planning.

Irrigation just means application of water to plants; it can be in the form of flood-irrigation as in rice paddy farming, or sprinklers (manual or automatic timer), or drip systems, or simply holding the hose to water your plants. You don't need to use only natives if you can water through the dry season.

It pays to have a landscape plan, including irrigation system, if it is within your budget. Neither of the landscapers that I mentioned are cheap by Thai standards, but neither are they unreasonable. In my opinion, after 40 years of tree and landscape business, they both have a realistic idea of the cost of doing business and providing quality materials and services.

Horticraft contact info is at www.horcraft.com Ed is the Canadian owner and Ning is his designer and landscape construction manager (he did the drawings on their website). I talked to Ed today and they are available.

Ms Pin is at www.freewebs.com/thamalangka But she told me a couple of weeks ago not to send her any work right now as she is busy on a project out of town. And others have told me that she is not answering her phone.

Some of my articles on soil fertility and composting, etc from 2005 may still be available on www.chiangmaiexpatsclub.com under Horticulture on the left menu. But some recommendations may be out of date.

If you have to add fill to your land, you have the chance to use some fairly good quality topsoil or river dredge, which is better than the heavy clay subsoil that is usually used. I have a couple of contacts and Ning of Horticraft is well connected for things like this. Decent loamy soil will cost from 800 to 1200 per 5 cubic meter truckload, depending on availability at the time. You will still need to add organic matter.

If you dig a pond and use the excavated soil to raise the grade in nearby areas, it will be a lot cheaper than bringing in truckloads of fill. You can use the savings to bring in some organic matter, rice hulls, manure etc and improve the existing soil.

If you have areas that will not be filled, I recommend seeding a 'green manure' legume cover crop now to rototill into the soil in about two months time, before it goes to seed and the stems get woody. This is the easiest and cheapest way to add vital organic matter and start to build soil fertility. This is important for long term health, but water and fertilization are most immediate. The heavy rains leach nutrients, especially nitrogen. Lawns need fertilization every 6 weeks, other plants and trees at least quarterly. If you're not going to use chemical fertilizers, then you really need to build up the soil organic matter content as soon as possible and include manures. And develop a source for dried manures for long term fertilization requirements. If you don't do any fertilization of any kind your plants will decline in health over time.

Oh yeah, you mentioned that you want vegetables and also that you want tall trees on the perimeter. Be sure that your tall trees don't block sunlight to your vegie garden for a major part of the day.

You mentioned that you like the yellow cascade flowering tree that you saw in the early season. I think you mean Cassia fistula, golden shower, 'ton koon' I think is the Thai name. There is another Cassia that is just starting to bloom now, it's beautiful and is everywhere, but the difference is obvious. don

Edited August 18, 2009 by drtreelove

[drtreelove]

You mentioned that you like the yellow cascade flowering tree that you saw in the early season. I think you mean Cassia fistula, golden shower, 'ton koon' I think is the Thai name. There is another Cassia that is just starting to bloom now, it's beautiful and is everywhere, but the difference is obvious. don

[Maejo Man]

I took the attached photo about 06.40hrs this morning. I was woken early, and after the off hand weather we have been having for the last few days, was amazed to see a stunning clear blue sky.

The shot unfortunately was on full zoom from the end of the garden, to get rid of all the nasty power cables. From the roof the view would have been stunning, but heights and early mornings are not a good combination for me

The temple on Doi Suthep looked picturesque in the morning sun, and the old tree on the right equals the one in Gymkhana club for age. The start of a perfect day!!

Edited August 19, 2009 by Maejo Man

[femi fan]

Sorry I botched and lost my reply to your PM; I admit I'm a keyboard klutz, probably due to so many years of chain saw vibration and rope climbing. I'll re-write it now for the benefit of others.

Soybeans are often grown in rotation with rice on the same fields in the alternate season.

Just replied to your pm before i saw this!

And yes, the land was alternately used for soya, rice, and something else.

I shall take time to slowly digest all your points! Many thanks.