Ilr - Not Applying For Wifes Child

[aubutie]

Hi All,

am applying for the wifes ILR, she has a child in her own country.

At the moment we are not considering bringing the child over (6 years old) to live permanently - she is well looked after by my wifes parents and its probably best she stay where she is for know - her long term future has not yet been decided, we will probably have her for holidays etc in the short term and take it from there

I am not intending to include her in the ILR, however I don't know if thats best, will there be any immigration issues if we do decide that we want her to come and live full time, will we have to complete an ILR for my wifes child for her to stay permanently (obviously depending on the rules as they are now, I know they can change)

[7by7]

As the child is not resident in the UK with you and your wife, she cannot be included in your wife's ILR application. To apply for ILR one needs to be resident in the UK.

If at some future date you do decide to bring the child to the UK you will need to apply for a child settlement visa for her. You wife would need to show that she has sole legal custody (father's death certificate or custody document issued by an ampur or a court) and that she has been exercising sole responsibility over the child (see SET7.8 What is sole responsibility?). The longer the period of separation, the more difficult showing sole responsibility may be.

I am not 100% sure, but I think that if you apply for settlement for the child after your wife has ILR then the child will be issued with Indefinite Leave to Enter, not a 2 year settlement visa. ILE is to all intents and purposes the same as ILR, so you would not need to later apply for ILR for her. Can someone confirm if this is so?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Generally the child's visa matches the mother however she first has demonstrate she has sole responsibility 7/7, as you said tricky in some cases.

[7by7]

Generally the child's visa matches the mother.....

That's what I thought; thanks for the confirmation.

[7by7]

Duplicate post deleted (must have double clicked!)

Edited August 17, 2009 by 7by7

[ThaiVisaExpress]

May i ask i hope you have included the child in all the applications in my experience the wife suddenly decides i want my child be educated in England.

Then the problems begin ensure you keep all records of contact money transfers etc you may require them in the future believe me. And the ECO will make a decision on the child's well being and where its future lies maybe this is not with you ?

As it may be judged to have formed an independent family unit away from his/her mother.

I am not trying to unduly worry you but just take this on board please.

[Mossfinn]

I am not 100% sure, but I think that if you apply for settlement for the child after your wife has ILR then the child will be issued with Indefinite Leave to Enter, not a 2 year settlement visa. ILE is to all intents and purposes the same as ILR, so you would not need to later apply for ILR for her. Can someone confirm if this is so?

As you say, ILE & ILR are one and the same, I believe the difference is ILR is issued to those who are already in the UK and ILE to those at a port of entry, to those with a parent who has already attained ILR.

You will often find, confusingly, that there is an end date on the stamp that corresponds with the end date of the passport, which can lead to confusion if certain people don't understand the actual terms of ILE, like myself.

After the passport has expired you do not have to reapply for ILE or ILR but have it transferred to the new PP, or I believe carry both PP's, old and new.

I also believe that a daughter/son will carry the same status as the parent, but this is not always the case and I carry the scars of such ambiguities, the same as my memory, I am not sure if I have all the above correct as my memory is not what it was, but I have been through the above and lost to the vagaries of the Establishment.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Moss as i said it matches her Mothers as my wife's daughters did.

So they can both apply for ILR at the same time however in this case she would gain ILR should the application be successful.

[Mossfinn]

As it may be judged to have formed an independent family unit away from his/her mother.

Isn't this usually applied when they have formed a family unit together with there own family, husband, son/daughter etc, although perhaps I understand there independence can be otherwise, but wouldn't this generally come under the Sole Responsibility guise??

Interested to hear your views.

[Mossfinn]

Moss as i said it matches her Mothers as my wife's daughters did.

They don't always match, as my daughters didn't.

So they can both apply for ILR at the same time however in this case she would gain ILR should the application be successful.

Although from memory, I believe this to be correct, as long as initial visas were correctly issued at the time.

Trust me this is not always the case.

However, what is the difference between I.L.E and I.L.R?

Is it different to my recollection above?

[aubutie]

Hi All

thanks for your comments,

leaves me with to things to ponder

ensuring the wife has sole custody of the child, not sure how we do thism the father buggered of before the birth and as I understand it has only ever seen her once, as a baby, providing proof of sole custody might not be straightforward

In effect she is in an independant family unit, being brought up in a sound, settled and loving household by her grandparents, however the grandparents have children around her own age aswell, this in effect his her current family unit, so i dont know how the authorites would see this if we are to bring her to the U.K. permanently in the future

[Mossfinn]

In effect she is in an independant family unit, being brought up in a sound, settled and loving household by her grandparents, however the grandparents have children around her own age aswell, this in effect his her current family unit, so i dont know how the authorites would see this if we are to bring her to the U.K. permanently in the future

ensuring the wife has sole custody of the child, not sure how we do thism the father buggered of before the birth and as I understand it has only ever seen her once, as a baby, providing proof of sole custody might not be straightforward

Go to the Amphur and they will investigate his last whereabouts, sending letters out to his last abode, probably even to the house they originally shared, when there is no response, or clarification of his whereabouts, I believe they will confirm the sole custody to your partner.

Remember this is not so important as Sole Responsibility and whether that will outweigh the 'independent family unit', I don't know.

[Eff1n2ret]

However, what is the difference between I.L.E and I.L.R?

Is it different to my recollection above?

No.

This is what the Entry Clearance Guidance says:

"ECB9.6 Indefinite Leave to Enter (ILE) and Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR)

Applicants who are granted Indefinite Leave to Enter (ILE) at a visa issuing Post should have no time restrictions on their stay in the UK ie they can stay indefinitely. ILE carries the same entitlement as “Indefinite Leave to Remain” (ILR) which is issued by the UK Border Agency to those who have already travelled to the UK. Anyone who has ILE does not have to apply for ILR when in the UK.

Although indefinite leave, by definition, will not expire, the ECO is unable to issue a visa to those who meet the criteria for ILE without putting a ‘validity date’ on the visa. In cases of ILE the ‘validity date’ on the visa should match the expiry date on the passport. When the applicant gets a new passport, they can apply to UK Border Agency for a transfer of conditions into their new passport. They do not need to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR)."

It's all very well to say there's "no difference" between ILE and ILR, and there certainly isn't in terms of remaining in the UK, but those with an ILR endorsement are able to obtain a new passport and travel using it in conjunction with their old passport. It would however be unsafe to rely on an "expired" ILE in an old passport when seeking to board a flight or ferry to the UK. So anyone with a time-limited endorsement has to apply for a transfer of conditions, and, of course, cough up a fee.

[7by7]

Remember this (sole custody) is not so important as Sole Responsibility

Both are vital. You will not get a settlement visa for you child unless you have legal sole custody* and can demonstrate that you have been exercising sole responsibility; see the guidance I linked to earlier.

"Leading an independent life" wont be a factor here, IMHO; the child is only 6 and living with her maternal grand parents.

*The rules don't actually mention sole custody as such, simply sole responsibility; but you wont get a visa for the child unless her mother has sole custody or the father is dead and she has a copy of the death certificate.

[Mossfinn]

However, what is the difference between I.L.E and I.L.R?

Is it different to my recollection above?

No.

This is what the Entry Clearance Guidance says:

"ECB9.6 Indefinite Leave to Enter (ILE) and Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR)

Applicants who are granted Indefinite Leave to Enter (ILE) at a visa issuing Post should have no time restrictions on their stay in the UK ie they can stay indefinitely. ILE carries the same entitlement as “Indefinite Leave to Remain” (ILR) which is issued by the UK Border Agency to those who have already travelled to the UK. Anyone who has ILE does not have to apply for ILR when in the UK.

Although indefinite leave, by definition, will not expire, the ECO is unable to issue a visa to those who meet the criteria for ILE without putting a ‘validity date’ on the visa. In cases of ILE the ‘validity date’ on the visa should match the expiry date on the passport. When the applicant gets a new passport, they can apply to UK Border Agency for a transfer of conditions into their new passport. They do not need to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR)."

It's all very well to say there's "no difference" between ILE and ILR, and there certainly isn't in terms of remaining in the UK, but those with an ILR endorsement are able to obtain a new passport and travel using it in conjunction with their old passport. It would however be unsafe to rely on an "expired" ILE in an old passport when seeking to board a flight or ferry to the UK. So anyone with a time-limited endorsement has to apply for a transfer of conditions, and, of course, cough up a fee.

Thanks for the more lucid clarification Eff', I was rather hoping my memory served me right.

However,

So anyone with a time-limited endorsement has to apply for a transfer of conditions, and, of course, cough up a fee.

Is this obligatory?

I accept it could be a little ambiguous, but is it absolutely necessary to have a transfer, it was not my recollection that the actual ILE was time limited, but they had to put some date on the stamp and this corresponded to the validity of the PP, but did not time limit the ILE?

[7by7]

It is not obligatory to transfer the ILE stamp to a new passport; and the ILE wont lapse if one doesn't.

However, an airline check in clerk seeing an ILE stamp in an old passport with an expiry date that has passed may be reluctant to carry the holder to the UK, thinking that the person does not have a valid leave to enter the UK.

This wouldn't happen with an ILR stamp as these do not have an expiry date on them.

Transferring visa etc. vignettes to a new passport used to be free; until Gordon Brown saw an easy way of making some money!

[Mossfinn]

Remember this (sole custody) is not so important as Sole Responsibility

Both are vital. You will not get a settlement visa for you child unless you have legal sole custody* and can demonstrate that you have been exercising sole responsibility; see the guidance I linked to earlier.

"Leading an independent life" wont be a factor here, IMHO; the child is only 6 and living with her maternal grand parents.

*The rules don't actually mention sole custody as such, simply sole responsibility; but you wont get a visa for the child unless her mother has sole custody or the father is dead and she has a copy of the death certificate.

Yes I agree, however I dashed it off in a rush but in response to Aubutie thinking that Sole Custody was difficult to attain with the Father AWOL, in dealing with a simple hurdle, I didn't want him to trip over the Sole Responsibility criteria that others have done on this forum, which is more difficult to gain and provide evidence for.

Also, once 'Independent Family Unit', had been thrown in, something I had already alluded to being secondary to SR, I wanted to ensure SR was not lost sight of, in pursuing SC.

But I agree a poor choice of words, made in haste.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Sole responsibility :

The time the parent has spent away from the child.

Previous arrangements for the care of the child prior to any parent entering the UK.

Who has had day to day care of the child since the Mother entered the UK.

Who supports the child financially etc.

The degree of contact between the parent claiming sole responsibility and the child.

And any role any other parents or relatives have played during the separation between the child and any parent.

We have several examples of cases however this is a generally what the ECO will be trying to establish.

Looking at the rules again the child would not have formed an independent family unit so this is not an issue i agree Moss.

Edited August 18, 2009 by ThaiVisaExpress