Eec Family Visit Visas

[Castor83]

Hey all,

Me again!

Just been reading the thread about the guy who tried to get his wifes tourist visa extended... Someone mentioned this EEC visa business and it's got me wondering.

I'm currently appealing my fiancee's settlement rejection as some of you know. Think we kinda got that covered, but there is a huge grey area and it could well go belly-up and we lose the appeal.

However, I just realised I'm sort of Irish. I mean I've got a British passport, but my mother is Irish, born in Ireland, and acccording to what I've just read about Irish citizenship this makes me entitled to an Irish passport. Does this mean, should the appeal go bandy, it would be possible for me to apply for one of these EEC family visas? Obviously I would have to get an Irish passport first and whatnot. (Would probab have to give up my UK one, wouldn't I?) But if the worst comes to the worst anything I can do is worth exploring...

Anyone know where I can get some info on these visas? Or if anyone has applied for one.

The way I see it, I would be a Irish citizen living and working in the UK. So therefore (providing we are married first[?]), my fiancee would be entitled to come and live with me?

... Or have I completely missed the point here?

Thanks for any help guys

Edited August 18, 2009 by Castor83

[ThaiVisaExpress]

If you was in fact married the EU family permits are free to yourself we have done quite a few of these.

You exercise your treaty rights on arrival she applies for a residence card which is 5 years.

Feel free to contact me for any further advise good luck.

Edited August 19, 2009 by ThaiVisaExpress

[Eff1n2ret]

You may well be entitled to Irish citizenship and passport (worth considering, an Irish passport is a bl00dy sight cheaper than a UK one, and of no less value for worldwide travel).

But you should pay heed to this little entry in the Guidance to ECOs:

"EUN2.15 Can family members of dual nationals/ Irish nationals and EEA nationals with settled status qualify for an EEA family permit?

This guidance is currently under review."

As I understand it, they're not awfully keen on Brits who have never lived or worked outside the UK mainland going the EEA route, so it may not be available to you in the future.

[Castor83]

You may well be entitled to Irish citizenship and passport (worth considering, an Irish passport is a bl00dy sight cheaper than a UK one, and of no less value for worldwide travel).

But you should pay heed to this little entry in the Guidance to ECOs:

"EUN2.15 Can family members of dual nationals/ Irish nationals and EEA nationals with settled status qualify for an EEA family permit?

This guidance is currently under review."

As I understand it, they're not awfully keen on Brits who have never lived or worked outside the UK mainland going the EEA route, so it may not be available to you in the future.

Hey Eff',

Yeah I just read that myself earlier on. Doesn't sound too good does it? Although that does suggest to me that it was possible before, but they are trying to change it. Frankly, I can see why. Whilst it would be very handy for me, the whole EEA family permit thing seems terribly unfair to me. How can it be cheaper, easier and quicker for a non british citizen living in the UK to get his family over here, than it is for a british citizen?

That being said, I hope they don't change it because I think when I go to Thailand I will apply for one anyway. Just explain to them that I'm in the process of a settlement appeal, but I wanna try this route too, so I can see my wife and kid quicker.

All I really want is my boy to be here for his first Christmas...

[Mossfinn]

However, I just realised I'm sort of Irish. I mean I've got a British passport, but my mother is Irish, born in Ireland, and acccording to what I've just read about Irish citizenship this makes me entitled to an Irish passport. (Would probab have to give up my UK one, wouldn't I?)

If you were born outside of Ireland, and one or both of your parents were born in Ireland, then you are automatically an Irish citizen from birth, and you do not need to apply for Foreign Births Registration. You can apply directly to the Irish Passport Office in London for an Irish passport. Their telephone number is 0207 225 7700, and their email address is [email protected].

Link

And you don't have to rescind your Brit PP either.

[7by7]

I wish you luck on both your appeal and, if you make it, an application under the EEA rules.

However, whilst an EEA permit is easier to get than a UK settlement visa; it can still be referred (which may delay the decision considerably) or even refused. Especially if the applicant has a dodgy immigration history.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

4 weeks only if you take this route 7/7.

[Castor83]

I wish you luck on both your appeal and, if you make it, an application under the EEA rules.

However, whilst an EEA permit is easier to get than a UK settlement visa; it can still be referred (which may delay the decision considerably) or even refused. Especially if the applicant has a dodgy immigration history.

Yeah it says they can refuse it for reasons of "public policy, public safety and public health..."

Not sure what the public policy part refers to, but I guess it will be the same sorta reasons for refusing a settlement visa .

TVE, have you ever done an app. for one of these from someone who was actually settled in the UK? Or dual nationality?

EDIT: On a different note, dropped off all the info today to the solicitor, for the appeal. He seemed very happy we proved our relationship etc.

Seems to think our problem will be the 320(7A) - The deception thing, because I answered the two questions wrong on the original form.

He is not sure they will overturn the decision without an appeal hearing because of this, even though it was a genuine mistake. Because apparently it doesn;t really matter whether you lied or not, just that what you put down wasn't true...

Still, fingers crossed...

Edited August 19, 2009 by Castor83

[Eff1n2ret]

Yeah it says they can refuse it for reasons of "public policy, public safety and public health..."

Not sure what the public policy part refers to, but I guess it will be the same sorta reasons for refusing a settlement visa .

No, "public policy" is designed to exclude such as visiting right-wing speakers coming to address the BNP, those believed to hold fanatical religious views, or notorious criminals, to quote a few examples.

[7by7]

It was not the 'public policy' issue I was thinking of, more her previous illegal entry and use of a false ID which may cause the ECO to refer the decision, and in an extreme case possibly even cause a refusal.

[the scouser]

However, the Directive does not provide for refusal on the basis of an adverse immigration history. Essentially, one is either the family member of an EEA national, or one isn't. Indeed, "Metock" established that national law (e.g. the Immigration Rules) cannot be applied to European applications.

However, I take your point that ECOs might either not be aware of such things, or refuse simply because they think the law is wrong.

Scouse.

Edit// I'm just being capricious.

Edited August 20, 2009 by the scouser

[bangla]

However, I take your point that ECOs might either not be aware of such things, or refuse simply because they think the law is wrong.

a (good) lawyer will fix that.

[Richard W]

If you were born outside of Ireland, and one or both of your parents were born in Ireland, then you are automatically an Irish citizen from birth, and you do not need to apply for Foreign Births Registration.

<snip>

And you don't have to rescind your Brit PP either.

However, in the UK you won't be a 'dual national' at least until you apply for the Irish passport. There is a down side to being a dual national - as I understand it, if you work in the British defence industry you can be sacked for applying for (or is it for receiving?) an Irish passport. Apparently Pakistan issues a near-equivalent (for internal purposes) to a passport so that those entitled to Pakistani citizenship can enjoy its benefits without incurring the non-Pakistani penalties for its possession!

[ThaiVisaExpress]

I wish you luck on both your appeal and, if you make it, an application under the EEA rules.

However, whilst an EEA permit is easier to get than a UK settlement visa; it can still be referred (which may delay the decision considerably) or even refused. Especially if the applicant has a dodgy immigration history.

Yeah it says they can refuse it for reasons of "public policy, public safety and public health..."

Not sure what the public policy part refers to, but I guess it will be the same sorta reasons for refusing a settlement visa .

TVE, have you ever done an app. for one of these from someone who was actually settled in the UK? Or dual nationality?

EDIT: On a different note, dropped off all the info today to the solicitor, for the appeal. He seemed very happy we proved our relationship etc.

Seems to think our problem will be the 320(7A) - The deception thing, because I answered the two questions wrong on the original form.

He is not sure they will overturn the decision without an appeal hearing because of this, even though it was a genuine mistake. Because apparently it doesn;t really matter whether you lied or not, just that what you put down wasn't true...

Still, fingers crossed...

Yes

[Mossfinn]

as I understand it, if you work in the British defence industry you can be sacked for applying for (or is it for receiving?) an Irish passport.

Any chance of a link?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Any chance of the next 6 numbers on the lotto Moss

[Castor83]

Yeah I understand that it may well get rejected aswell... But the way I see it, I'm going through an appeal anyway, and if it goes to a tribunal I am very confident they will give my gf the visa. So I figure, if it's free, I might aswell give this route a try while I'm in Bangkok. Can't hurt... Can it?

The big bonus is we can apply for my gf's daughter at the same time, so it sorts alot of logistical problems for me. Plus obviously if the timeframe can be less, then it is great. Even if it is referred(deferred?) I reckon it will still be quicker than waiting for a hearing.

Gonna do the application for my Irish passport tomorrow "Top of the mornin' to ya!"

The worry I'm having is if we get married in Thailand in September, does that cause problems with the Fiancee visa? I mean do you have to get married in the UK? I would have thought not, but then technically she isn;t my fiancee anymore, so maybe they will say we can't have a fiancee visa...

[bangla]

you won't need the fiancee visa if you have your irish passport.

you don't have to get married if you don't get the irish passport.

good luck for tomorrow.

Edited August 23, 2009 by bangla

[Richard W]

as I understand it, if you work in the British defence industry you can be sacked for applying for (or is it for receiving?) an Irish passport.

Any chance of a link?

Here's an example from http://jobs.trovit.co.uk/jobs/dual-nationality (odd URL!):

Systems Engineer - to £50K + Benefits - Basingstoke

Basingstoke Hampshire | Basingstoke jobs

Company: Silicon Valley

Salary: 35000-50000/year

interaction between hardware and software An understanding of SysML, UML and supporting tools Use of IBM Telelogic, DOORS Understanding of DSP techniques Real time embedded software design Please note you must be born British – No Dual... Nationality as this position requires MOD Security Clearances and an ITAR agreement is in place between the UK and USA. If you are a Systems Engineer and would like to be considered for this exciting technical role then click on Apply.

Another example at http://www.datong.co.uk/ir/dte/pdf/Datong-...e_Engineer.pdf:

SECURITY CLEARANCE

All employment at Datong is subject to security clearance and due to the nature of our business anyone who

does not have full British citizenship (i.e. hold a full British passport) or who has dual nationality will not get

security clearance to the level required. All candidates are required to bring either their passport or a

combination of identification forms to the initial interview.

I assume it's a clear case at Datong - perhaps Datong is too dependent on co-operation with US companies, or perhaps the work needs positive vetting. I note that MI6 (SIS) says its employees must be prepared to renounce non-British nationalities on request.

My closest contact with the issue came up in discussing dual nationality with a colleague of Pakistani origin. He quoted a case where someone had had to renounce Pakistani citizenship to be sure of keeping his security clearance and therefore his job. The chap I was speaking to, whose father has never got round to acquiring British nationality, said he was OK provided he didn't apply for a Pakistani passport.

Now, one might think that Pakistan and Ireland would be different (the UK and Pakistan have been memembers of military alliances :-) ), but they are given equal weight in an advert at http://www.toplanguagejobs.co.uk/job-211631.html:

Due to the necessity for security clearance employees must have British Citizenship or Dual Nationality with Britain and any of the following countries: Austria, Australia, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey..

I suspect US involvement is the biggest problem, but acquiring dual nationality is a risk.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Richard W