Printing In San Sai Area (ebooks)

[hml367]

I am looking at how many CD and DVD shops in Western countries are going out of business due to illegal downloads. Would you say that most e-book users would pay to download books that they could easily get on the internet for free?

UG, in my opinion everyone does not think the same way as you. Sorry. I am guessing that areas of the world that have a high "computer literacy" would embrace downloading or ebooks or whatever. In that same guess, areas that have a lesser "computer literacy" as a whole it would not be the same.

But you are entitled to your opinion and also to make your case for your opinions. I am just making mine

MSPain

PS By the way, I personally do not like "ebook readers" or even reading a large .pdf file on a computer. I would much rather look at it in print form. That does not change the way other people think.

As for any CD and DVD shops in Western countries going out of business.... whether it is the result of illegal downloads I don't know.

Edited August 28, 2009 by hml367

[Ulysses G.]

I am looking at how many CD and DVD shops in Western countries are going out of business due to illegal downloads. Would you say that most e-book users would pay to download books that they could easily get on the internet for free?

UG, in my opinion everyone does not think the same way as you. Sorry. I am guessing that areas of the world that have a high "computer literacy" would embrace downloading or ebooks or whatever. In that same guess, areas that have a lesser "computer literacy" as a whole it would not be the same.

But you are entitled to your opinion and also to make your case for your opinions. I am just making mine

MSPain

PS By the way, I personally do not like "ebook readers" or even reading a large .pdf file on a computer. I would much rather look at it in print form. That does not change the way other people think.

As for any CD and DVD shops in Western countries going out of business.... whether it is the result of illegal downloads I don't know.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I am just not sure what your point is, but it is pretty well accepted that illegal downloads and other piracy is the reason that so many CD and DVD shops in Western countries are going out of business.

I do know that most people do not agree with me that e-books are somewhat of a con, but I feel that, in general, people just do not question new technology. They automatically assume that it is better than whatever came before.

We should never forget that most new stuff is more useful than what it is replacing but e-books are almost the opposite. They are trying hard to make them as comfortable and funtional as a printed book, but have not come close so far. All of the bells and whistles are trying to make you forget that fact. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08...03fa_fact_baker

[mnbcm]

Who cares if e-books are not only unnecessary, but also less enjoyable than the real thing?

I agree. I work on a computer and the last thing I want to do is spend more time reading a book on it or a tiny little phone screen. However, e-books are a God-send when doing research. I don't even want to think how much time I spent trying to find "that one quote" from a stack of books. Searching is so convenient with e-books.

[hml367]

As I mentioned, I don't like reading long things on a computer.... I didn't even look at your link for that reason. I will look later, I doubt if I will read it if it is lengthy.

No argument here...

MSPain

[Ulysses G.]

It is a very long article about e books, but by a well know author and it generated a lot of controversy. I really enjoyed the whole thing.

[hml367]

I wonder what it would be like discussing this through a postal service....

MSPain

[swain]

It is a very long article about e books, but by a well know author and it generated a lot of controversy. I really enjoyed the whole thing.

You guys are thinking that things will remain the same. The advances in epaper that will take books to the next level is only a few years a way. Ebooks like this will be history soon enough.

The Chinese will have a cheap version out in no time... and though books with wood pulp will always be around. They will be more of a novelty not the norm. People will buy Ebooks not everyone is an expat trying to live on a ever decreasing budget.

Edited August 28, 2009 by swain

[Ulysses G.]

Computer are innovation. E-books are retrovation.

[hml367]

Computer are innovation. E-books are retrovation.

RETROVATION ?????

In the dictionary (online... sorry... I don't have a printed English dictionary because they are too expensive here for me. The idictionary I use is one I paid for and read in a computer. Definitions aren't as long, so I do read them) I looked at it seems an 'ebook' would be an 'innovation'. I can't find anything for 'retrovation'.

MSPain

Merriam-Webster is what I used.

Edited August 28, 2009 by hml367

[Ulysses G.]

A portmanteau (blend) of retrospective and innovation. They also spell it as retronovation.

I thought that I made it up, but apparently not as there are internet definitions listed.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

Last night at our writers' group, I mentioned in jest that my long novel is 'ready to be published' and I'd accept a million dollars for it, including movie rights. It appears that intellectual property rights are fast decreasing in value.

[swain]

Computer are innovation. E-books are retrovation.

If you mean wood pulp books will soon be thought of as retro, I would agree with that.

[Ulysses G.]

Most people would I agree with you. I would probably agree with you.

However, I also would guess that, in the end, publishers will have to force the public to switch to e-books by refusing to sell traditional books for a reasonable price.

Real maple syrup and vanilla are far superior to their imitations, but too expensive for every day use.

[angiud]

Yeah! I can find the same debate on CD/vinyl, film/digital, etc etc.

You cannot stop the progress.

(and, what a save of energy and pollution with less paper!)

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Friends,

An interesting discussion. My human grew up without television (until age 12 or so), and was an avid reader from the age six on (but was also a big fan of radio dramas).

I was lucky to grow up in an atmosphere where books were appreciated, and we had many fine custom-bound books, special editions. Early on I had a sense of the beauty of the Caslon and other "classic" typefaces many of these books were set in, the beauty of the etchings by artists like Gustave Dore, the remarkable metallic inks used in the superb edition we had of the Fitzgerad translation of Umar Khayyam's Rubaiyat.

For me, I think holding a book, the tactile experience of paper, the look of ink, is such a deeply ingrained pattern ... a "way of life," perhaps ... that even though I use a computer many hours per day (programming, researching technical issues, in e-mail correspondence, and for creative writing) ... that no e-book will ever replace the pleasure I have holding a book.

As a child my handwriting was atrocious (even my printing looked like some kind of shorthand from another culture), so I was sent off to typing school in the summer when I was ten (on big mechanical typewriters, of course); thus : for me, writing was always associated with typing, and still is. While I admit I really admire seeing someone's elegant hand-writing, I am happy that I can touch-type very fast.

I do technical study and research on the web, and that's okay, but I often print out articles, or chapters of .pdf books, to read and underline with a highlighter. But, for me, reading original creative writing (poetry or fiction) just doesn't work on the computer !

The one thing I would like to add to this discussion, other than my personal experience, is ... in regard to the rapidly expanding elite fraction of the planet's population (estimates range from 5% to 25% of the world's population having some access to the web, concentrated primarily in "industrialized developed countries") that has access to the web, computers, e-book readers, etc. ...

http://www.internetworldstats.com/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_..._own_a_computer

Is that I believe that many people today who have grown up in a tv-saturated environment, have been socialized to frequent interaction with electronic devices ranging from computers to iPods and cell-phones, computer gaming, etc. literally have their "nervous systems" wired in different ways than those of my generation (baby-boomers in the US, born during WWII or shortly afterward) who "grew up with books." And I think we need to be careful here to distinguish "access" from "learning" and "concentration" : a kilometer away from my house is a computer-gaming den full of low-quality pc's and monitors which is packed with teens and schoolchildren playing games for many hours per day : of the first-person-shooter, sports, martial-arts, variety : is that "access" preparing them for a productive future in Thailand ? Well, honestly, I don't know. Maybe it's no different than reading "comics" was for many of my generation ?

I'm not saying the new reading "technologies" are "good," or "bad;" personally, I don't think I will ever change at this point in my life in terms of the ways I associate "deep reading" with printed material and books, but I'm open to the idea that a new generation will perhaps be so socialized to these other new delivery mechanisms, that don't depend on paper and ink, that those media will be as "natural" to them as "books" are to me.

And, I'm all for the attempts to use technology as an "amplifier" to get higher-quality education to people without access to it now ... while I acknowledge the long history of failures to make that work.

best, your nearing obsolescence ~o:37;

[swain]

There will be leather bound ebooks, and maybe even texture to the plastic maybe a small aroma of newspaper ... Books are great.. I agree.. Though I would be talking about old books with the quality paper and ink and leather and other quality materials... but not what books have evolved to. Paperbacks with bindings that barely last you through one reading much less two. Its time for a change..

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Friends,

An interesting discussion. My human grew up without television (until age 12 or so), and was an avid reader from the age six on (but was also a big fan of radio dramas).

I was lucky to grow up in an atmosphere where books were appreciated, and we had many fine custom-bound books, special editions. Early on I had a sense of the beauty of the Caslon and other "classic" typefaces many of these books were set in, the beauty of the etchings by artists like Gustave Dore, the remarkable metallic inks used in the superb edition we had of the Fitzgerad translation of Umar Khayyam's Rubaiyat.

For me, I think holding a book, the tactile experience of paper, the look of ink, is such a deeply ingrained pattern ... a "way of life," perhaps ... that even though I use a computer many hours per day (programming, researching technical issues, in e-mail correspondence, and for creative writing) ... that no e-book will ever replace the pleasure I have holding a book.

Edited August 28, 2009 by swain

[anonymouse]

An interesting topic.

Like orang37 I grew up in a house with a lot of books and no electronic gadget would replace them in my mind. My two children are now in the same position, an avid reader I have hundreds of books at home and they are following in my footsteps, I couldn't see them enjoying the pleasures of books if all they had to go by was an e-reader. So hopefully for at least another generation books will survive in there original form, in my family at least

[Thakkar]

There's nothing like cracking open a new book, or re-reading an old favorite and noting nostalgically the passages you once marked. And consider the pure joy of browsing in a bookstore, handling the tomes and making serendipitous discoveries. As a teenager I had a long-running part time job at a used bookstore, where I also spent much of my earnings. I also had a summer job organizing the many donated books at the small Hindu temple library. Those were great times, so my views are biased.

The screenagers of today, like my kids, are equally happy reading on screen or paper. I doubt they will lament the passing of dead tree tomes if that comes to pass anytime soon. There are some advantages to ebooks: slightly cheaper books, the ability to immediately and conveniently look up words, and, most importantly for my tired old eyes, larger font sizes.

As in music, proprietary, DRM'd formats will eventually give way to open standards. Sony has already embraced ePub, an open standard. So a major reason for many to resist eBooks has been addressed. There are already major moves afoot to replace physical textbooks with digital ones. It's quite possible that, in twenty years or less, physical books, while not disappearing, will become a rarity.

[mallmagician]

So thats 50 satang per copy near CMU? Thanks for that.

Phil

PS - I'll duck out now and let you continue the debate. My 2 pence worth - As much as I like a "real" book, I am not blind to the HUGE savings an Ereader will get me. Sure, buying the book you want online with instant delivery can cost more than the paper version, but then you add P&P to the paper version, and its no big saving. Also do not forget the many FREE modern books available on Ebook websites. All legal and above board sources too:-

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Of course if you have bittorrent, you open another world of ebooks. . . . If you're a very naughty boy.

[Ulysses G.]

It is interesting that everyone seems to think that the introductory prices of e-books reflect what they will be charging in the future. The retailers are desperate to convince people to switch to the new gadget. Yes, there will also be free e-books, but other than a few out-of-copyright classics almost no one will want to read them.

I remember when Borders and all the big book stores first moved into downtown USA. They were all discounting bestsellers and offering amazing bargains and saying that because they were so big, they could do it forever.

Of course, as soon as they put all the small and independent stores out of business, they dropped all the discounts.

Guess what, it is payback time, the e-books people will do the exact same thing and you and I will end up with an inferior product (in my opinion) that costs even more money. The only way that e-books will remain at a reasonable price is if downloading them illegally remains an easy option.

Of course I am only guesssing, but my honest personal opinion is that after the initial hoopla, reading books for pleasure will decrease dramatically.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[Thakkar]

It is interesting that everyone seems to think that the introductory prices of e-books reflect what they will be charging in the future. The retailers are desperate to convince people to switch to the new gadget. Yes, there will also be free e-books, but other than a few out-of-copyright classics almost no one will want to read them.

I remember when Borders and all the big book stores first moved into downtown USA. They were all discounting bestsellers and offering amazing bargains and saying that because they were so big, they could do it forever.

Of course, as soon as they put all the small and independent stores out of business, they dropped all the discounts.

Guess what, it is payback time, the e-books people will do the exact same thing and you and I will end up with an inferior product (in my opinion) that costs even more money. The only way that e-books will remain at a reasonable price is if downloading them illegally remains an easy option.

Of course I am only guesssing, but my honest personal opinion is that after the initial hoopla, reading books for pleasure will decrease dramatically.

I'm afraid you're right on all counts. I wish you weren't though

Ironically, pirates will be the only people keeping the publishers honest.

[zippydedodah]

I am looking at how many CD and DVD shops in Western countries are going out of business due to illegal downloads. Would you say that most e-book users would pay to download books that they could easily get on the internet for free?

not sure about the accuracy here... meaning i don't know exactly what is driving shops out of business, but i don't think it is necessarily the illegal downloads... lots of statistics on both sides of that story and the popularity of itunes, plus legitimate buying of music online has had an impact on brick and mortar stores... for sure. But if you can find numbers on the actual sales of all music, i don't think sales have dropped enough to lay the blame at the door of the pirates...

it is hard to know what stats to trust... having just come over from usa, i saw figures from both sides, each one arguing that the statistics support THEIR version of the truth.

[Thakkar]

I am looking at how many CD and DVD shops in Western countries are going out of business due to illegal downloads. Would you say that most e-book users would pay to download books that they could easily get on the internet for free?

not sure about the accuracy here... meaning i don't know exactly what is driving shops out of business, but i don't think it is necessarily the illegal downloads... lots of statistics on both sides of that story and the popularity of itunes, plus legitimate buying of music online has had an impact on brick and mortar stores... for sure. But if you can find numbers on the actual sales of all music, i don't think sales have dropped enough to lay the blame at the door of the pirates...

it is hard to know what stats to trust... having just come over from usa, i saw figures from both sides, each one arguing that the statistics support THEIR version of the truth.

Industry stats need to be taken with a large grain of salt. First they tend to extrapolate from the most egregious figures. Then they assume that all those who buy/download pirated materials would have actually bought the original had the illicit version been unavailable, a huge assumption.

[Ulysses G.]

they assume that all those who buy/download pirated materials would have actually bought the original had the illicit version been unavailable, a huge assumption.

Very good point and easy to forget.

[Thakkar]

I am looking at how many CD and DVD shops in Western countries are going out of business due to illegal downloads. Would you say that most e-book users would pay to download books that they could easily get on the internet for free?

not sure about the accuracy here... meaning i don't know exactly what is driving shops out of business, but i don't think it is necessarily the illegal downloads... lots of statistics on both sides of that story and the popularity of itunes, plus legitimate buying of music online has had an impact on brick and mortar stores... for sure. But if you can find numbers on the actual sales of all music, i don't think sales have dropped enough to lay the blame at the door of the pirates...

it is hard to know what stats to trust... having just come over from usa, i saw figures from both sides, each one arguing that the statistics support THEIR version of the truth.

Industry stats need to be taken with a large grain of salt. First they tend to extrapolate from the most egregious figures. Then they assume that all those who buy/download pirated materials would have actually bought the original had the illicit version been unavailable, a huge assumption.

One more assumption I forgot to mention: Industry stats further assume that the "lost sales" would've been bought at full sticker price. Many (if not most) books, DVDs or CDs are sold at a discount on sticker price.

[swain]

E-book fans are proving to be enthusiastic readers

.....Amazon, for example, says that people with Kindles now buy 3.1 times as many books as they did before owning the device. That factor is up from 2.7 in December 2008, when the company last provided the statistic.

"You are going to see very significant industry growth rates as a result of the convenience of this kind of reading," said Jeff Bezos, chief executive of Amazon......

The complete story

[Ulysses G.]

This is all hype to shove these unwanted devices down our throats. I've talked to loads of people who have visited the West and have never seen anyone reading one of these things.

This industry promotion says that the "average" reader of real books only purchases about 6 book per year, so why would they want to shell out $300 more for a electronic device to read the books after they are paid for?

They also claim that the few e-book readers that are out there are reading more than "normal" readers, but just because they are downloading them does not mean that they are reading them. The industry is giving out some old classics that have no copyright out for free. This makes it look like people are reading more, but how many get stored on the hard drive unread forever?

When you think of e-books just think about how the big money merchants promised us that CDs would never scratch, would sound better than LPs and would go down in price. It was all hype and none of it was true!

Edited October 24, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[hml367]

I guess the statistics are not the same depending on where they are from.... in more ways than one.

MSPain

[Thakkar]

* Kindle sales boost Amazon profits *

Online retailer Amazon has reported strong profits between July and September - thanks in part to the Kindle electronic reader.

...the company said its Kindle electronic book reader had become its single best-selling item in terms of units and dollars.

Full story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/business/8321583.stm

---

Self interest notwithstanding, I think UG has a case. especially when it comes to the Kindle because it's a proprietary format. Digital books you thought you owned disappear if you decide you prefer a different reader four years hence. Also kindle books bought from Amazon are stored on the Kindle and the Amazon cloud, not on your hard drive. If you lose your kindle, the only way to get your books back is to buy another kindle. A cheaper, better reader may come along from Sony, but if you want to keep your books, you're out of luck. In other words, as UG says, it's a bit of a scam.

On the other hand, I do appreciate the convenience of digital books and would buy a Reader if the following criteria can be met:

Open formats

Storage on my hard drive

readable on and transferable to various devices from vendors who support open standards.

readable on my computer screen using any standard text reader.

[Ulysses G.]

I admit bias, but I am also one of those people who have very little interest in reading from a machine - at least until reading it becomes more comfortable and all the kinks are removed (which I predict will be at least 10 years from now). Why should I switch to something which will be much less useable than what I already have for quite some time?