To 'thai' Or Not To 'thai'?

[philo]

I found this by chance and I found it a very good read.

It asks whether learning Thai was a mistake.

In my case, I have one more reason to regret I ever learned Thai - my daughter is reluctant to speak English with me, because I speak Thai with her mother (who denies to speak English).

[mauiguy90]

I found this by chance and I found it a very good read.

It asks whether learning Thai was a mistake.

In my case, I have one more reason to regret I ever learned Thai - my daughter is reluctant to speak English with me, because I speak Thai with her mother (who denies to speak English).

Good article! It points out that despite all efforts to speak thai, most thais speak English with foreigners. Altho' I don't know that this is entirely true, I do find that those thai proficient in English seem to prefer speaking English.

My general feeling is that learning thai is worth the time, although it has generally shattered my image of thais being really polite people. Walking around and inadvertently listening to thais insult foreigners, who they think don't understand the language, is eye opening. Maybe it is better not to understand the language.

[cali4995]

speaking thai seems to work to your advantage about 1% of the time. not a very high ratio of study-time / reward

and then like mauiguy says, it can really test your patience with the insults and then pretending you don't understand.

[anothertorres]

that write-up, while well spoken, is ridiculously jaded. i've learned thai for my own benefit. if a Thai person can speak english and is making an effort to speak in MY language, i am more than happy to do so. the want to learn can go both ways.

that article has many true points, but it's one persons jaded view on their time in Thailand and learning the language. imho, i learn thai to understand moreso than for speaking purposes. and for those that complain that they've heard too much negativity after secretly understanding what is being said around them are most definitely hanging around the wrong crowds.

and besides, who gives a shit these people that talk bad about others. these people should mean nothing to you and your existance in Thailand.

[midasthailand]

From my perspective, living in Thailand and not being able to converse with the locals would be a nightmare. My language skills have played a big factor in obtaining work here. For those that say they hear insults all the time, I would echo the sentiments of anothertorres, you are hanging around the wrong crowd. I am always hearing compliments from Thais that do not know me and rarely hear negative comments. When in my own country I am always happier to hear asian people speaking English to each other as it indicates an effort to learn the language of the country you live in, likewise I think most Thais feel happy to hear Farangs speak Thai for similar reasons.

Whilst I am not an English teacher, I do spend 1 hour, four days/week teaching English to my staff and the ability to be able to explain things in Thai, makes the process so much less frustrating and also produces marked improvements in business correspondence.

At the end of the day whether or not you choose to learn Thai is up to you, but I believe being able to speak Thai with a reasonable level of fluency has enhanced all aspects of my life here.

[dvc]

I found this by chance and I found it a very good read.

It asks whether learning Thai was a mistake.

In my case, I have one more reason to regret I ever learned Thai - my daughter is reluctant to speak English with me, because I speak Thai with her mother (who denies to speak English).

Whilst I can relate to much of what the author of the 'Stickman' article wrote; I've had just as many positive experiences that counterbalance the less pleasant ones. I know quite a number of Thais who freely and happily voice their own opinions, and think for themselves, without regard for the common and conventional mindset. I guess I must be lucky in this regard. Even in my encounters with strangers, at least 50% of the time I come across people who are more than happy to speak Thai with me and are grateful they don't have to struggle with the English language in order to communicate with me. This more than makes up for the people who conform to the description, given in the aforementioned article.

I can't imagine being in Thailand and not being able to speak Thai. It makes everything so much easier and is certainly worth the effort I have expended, (and continue to expend), gaining knowledge of the Thai language.

[RickBradford]

I feel the author of that piece had the expectation than once he could speak Thai he would somehow automagically 'belong' in Thailand, something which is never going to happen; many of us could pass as Italians or Brazilians on our looks; very few of us could pass as Thais. You were, are, and always will be 'farang', but it's not fair to assume Thais use the word to mean 'monkey', as the author suggested.

Learning the Thai language is a wonderful pursuit as long as you don't expect too much out of it in social terms. You will probably reap significant benefits every day from being able to speak and read Thai, but it is unlikely to enable you to cross that chasm between 'Thai' and 'non-Thai', although on that subject I should like to hear from people like Stu Raj, or others who are truly fluent in Thai.

Edited August 28, 2009 by RickBradford

[cali4995]

and besides, who gives a shit these people that talk bad about others. these people should mean nothing to you and your existance in Thailand.

actually, if people are insulting you directly with a fake smile pasted on their face, i think it kind of is relevant.

i was having a running problem with the local taxi rank because i did not want a moto-taxi 5 times everyday

and they were yak-yak-yak-yak and it wasn't until i insulted them back that they shut the <removed>-up. granted,

that might not work for everyone but they have no conception some people might understand the insults.

[withnail]

I agree with all of the criticisms of that piece. Why is it when someone writes an article that criticizes a person or place we tend to almost instantly assume that thy are an honest, well-mannered person. He's hardly going to write, "although I must admit my pronunciation was always awful and I'm often told I come across as being a bit of a dick."

I agree that the Thai language doesn't open all the doors to you, what really works is a knowledge of both the language and the culture. Whilst I am somewhat jealous of people who pick up languages quickly, there's nothing worse than watching an elementary Thai speaker trying to have a discussion with a load of strangers on religion or politics.

As for the fact that Thais always belittle your attempts to speak Thai, I hardly ever get that anymore. Some Thais I deal with whose English is really good are often not sure when speaking to me which is the best language to use and with some of these people we switch between the two depending on the circumstances. But other than that I can only assume that the writer's Thai didn't sound as good as he thought it did.

Some of his observations about Thai culture are fair enough, but jaded is definitely the right word to describe his outlook.

[withnail]

Can I honestly ask though, how many people here have actually ever, or even frequently, caught Thai people out insulting them? I honestly off the top of my head don't ever remember this happening to me. I have caught Thais out saying something embarrassing on several occasions, which usually leads to everybody laughing when they find out I have understood.

What I've also witnessed on far too many occasions though, is angry westerners, convinced that they were being talked about because they heard the word farang being used. Despite the fact that they don't know what context it was being used in, and probably, whilst they themselves were ranting negatively about Thai people.

[samran]

Frankly, I get the impression that the poster on the stickman site doesn't speak Thai well at all.

If you do speak it well, there is nil chance that a Thai person, regardless of their level of English, will speak back to you in English. The only time that happens is if you speak Thai badly, and they try and help you out with their limited English.

In my experience if you start a conversation in Thai, or respond immediately in Thai, then the rest of the interaction will be undertaken in Thai.

I also am very skeptical of there is this mysterious 'club' you join if you are able to speak Thai well. Its not like you are going to get a RBSC membership as a result.

Like most places in the world, you are most likely to end up in circles which have a lot to do with your relative wealth, interests, work etc.... language helps grease those interactions, but it isn't the reason for it.

Edited August 28, 2009 by samran

[dvc]

Can I honestly ask though, how many people here have actually ever, or even frequently, caught Thai people out insulting them? I honestly off the top of my head don't ever remember this happening to me. I have caught Thais out saying something embarrassing on several occasions, which usually leads to everybody laughing when they find out I have understood.

What I've also witnessed on far too many occasions though, is angry westerners, convinced that they were being talked about because they heard the word farang being used. Despite the fact that they don't know what context it was being used in, and probably, whilst they themselves were ranting negatively about Thai people.

What I would categorise as an insult; a Thai touched the hair on my arm and said, เหมือนลิง , has only occurred once in nearly twenty years of regular visits to Thailand. Other (very infrequent), comments that were specifically directed at my race, I understood to be made out of ignorance, and not malice; therefore I was able to laugh them off.

[Lost in LOS]

Can I honestly ask though, how many people here have actually ever, or even frequently, caught Thai people out insulting them? I honestly off the top of my head don't ever remember this happening to me. I have caught Thais out saying something embarrassing on several occasions, which usually leads to everybody laughing when they find out I have understood.

What I've also witnessed on far too many occasions though, is angry westerners, convinced that they were being talked about because they heard the word farang being used. Despite the fact that they don't know what context it was being used in, and probably, whilst they themselves were ranting negatively about Thai people.

What I would categorise as an insult; a Thai touched the hair on my arm and said, เหมือนลิง</b> , has only occurred once in nearly twenty years of regular visits to Thailand. Other (very infrequent), comments that were specifically directed at my race, I understood to be made out of ignorance, and not malice; therefore I was able to laugh them off.

I usually joke with the thai girls and play with the hair on my arms and say same-same ling............they laugh and sometimes say godzilla or kingkong......all in fun. Most like it, maybe something different for them

Edited August 28, 2009 by Lost in LOS

[Lopburi99]

If I lived in a larger city where Thai classes were offered I would probably take one. My current plan however is just to continue to learn the 50-100 or so basic words so I can just get by and have some idea of what is being said. Beyond that, I think I am better off not knowing. For my first year here and while I was teaching my wife english I referred to myself as a "deaf mute" - the deaf old Granny sitting there knitting while everybody talked about her. At least now I know enough Thai not to have that frustrating feeling, but living in Thailand with the language barrier (especially outside of larger cities) can definitely get somebody down to the point of eventually reluctantly deciding to leave.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Lopburi99

[dvc]

Can I honestly ask though, how many people here have actually ever, or even frequently, caught Thai people out insulting them? I honestly off the top of my head don't ever remember this happening to me. I have caught Thais out saying something embarrassing on several occasions, which usually leads to everybody laughing when they find out I have understood.

What I've also witnessed on far too many occasions though, is angry westerners, convinced that they were being talked about because they heard the word farang being used. Despite the fact that they don't know what context it was being used in, and probably, whilst they themselves were ranting negatively about Thai people.

What I would categorise as an insult; a Thai touched the hair on my arm and said, เหมือนลิง , has only occurred once in nearly twenty years of regular visits to Thailand. Other (very infrequent), comments that were specifically directed at my race, I understood to be made out of ignorance, and not malice; therefore I was able to laugh them off.

I usually joke with the thai girls and play with the hair on my arms and say same-same ling............they laugh and sometimes say godzilla or kingkong......all in fun. Most like it, maybe something different for them

If it had been a child that made the comment I would not have minded, however, it was an adult, and a well educated one at that. Hence my taking offence.

[RickBradford]

This reminds me of a wincingly embarrassing scene I witnessed one late afternoon in Hua Hin.

A young (continental) European strode into an open-air restaurant and installed himself at the bar. Within a few minutes, he had a dictionary out, and was playing Let's Learn Thai with the young female staff members, using a dictionary he had brought with him. So far, so good.

Then, he stood up and said loudly: "Pom yark gin khao!" with no attempt at tones and in a stronglly Fr European intonation. The girls, uncertain whether this was still part of the lesson, giggled in that nervous Thai way, and this had the worst effect on the European.

Perceiving himself insulted, he yelled: "Why are you laughing? Don't you understand your own language? Why do you treat me like this?", leaving the only other farang in the place (me) hiding behind the Daily News and trying to look inconspicuous.

He ranted a bit more, and then stalked out, with "I will never return" as his parting shot. I don't think the girls had the slightest idea of why this person was so upset, or what about.

So, learning Thai (indeed living in Thailand) is bound to have its pitfalls, but our attitude is the main thing that determines our experience.

Edited August 28, 2009 by RickBradford

[philo]

Thanks for the many opinions.

Personally I connected with the author on the point that the candy shop 'magic' of Thailand is very soon lost when you get to know their language and their 'culture'.

Who hasn't heard one taxi driver say to another:

มีลูกค้าหรือยัง

Answer:

มี ฝรั่งสามตัว

Or when some person with 4 years of education - not even able to read his native language - say (refering to the farang) to another clerk in the shop where you are trying to explain that a 'nut' is not the same as a 'bolt':

มันไม่เข้าใจ

Well, if I did'nt take it seriously, it could have been great fun.

(PS Excuse me if there are mis-spellings, I cannot really write Thai.)

[withnail]

So, learning Thai (indeed living in Thailand) is bound to have its pitfalls, but our attitude is the main thing that determines our experience.

I think that sums it up pretty well Rick.

[dvc]

This reminds me of a wincingly embarrassing scene I witnessed one late afternoon in Hua Hin.

A young (continental) European strode into an open-air restaurant and installed himself at the bar. Within a few minutes, he had a dictionary out, and was playing Let's Learn Thai with the young female staff members, using a dictionary he had brought with him. So far, so good.

Then, he stood up and said loudly: "Pom yark gin khao!" with no attempt at tones and in a stronglly Fr European intonation. The girls, uncertain whether this was still part of the lesson, giggled in that nervous Thai way, and this had the worst effect on the European.

Perceiving himself insulted, he yelled: "Why are you laughing? Don't you understand your own language? Why do you treat me like this?", leaving the only other farang in the place (me) hiding behind the Daily News and trying to look inconspicuous.

He ranted a bit more, and then stalked out, with "I will never return" as his parting shot. I don't think the girls had the slightest idea of why this person was so upset, or what about.

So, learning Thai (indeed living in Thailand) is bound to have its pitfalls, but our attitude is the main thing that determines our experience.

If you're referring to the incident I described, then, no, there is no similarity between it and the story you've just related. I did not rant, rave, get upset, or otherwise behave in an unseemly manner. My response to the monkey comment was, in a calm, modulated tone, เป็นคนเหมือนกัน

[RickBradford]

^

dvc,

I wasn't referring to your experience, mine was an unconnected post.

[dvc]

^

dvc,

I wasn't referring to your experience, mine was an unconnected post.

Okay...my apologies; I thought you were referring to my post.

[cali4995]

Can I honestly ask though, how many people here have actually ever, or even frequently, caught Thai people out insulting them? I honestly off the top of my head don't ever remember this happening to me. I have caught Thais out saying something embarrassing on several occasions, which usually leads to everybody laughing when they find out I have understood.

What I've also witnessed on far too many occasions though, is angry westerners, convinced that they were being talked about because they heard the word farang being used. Despite the fact that they don't know what context it was being used in, and probably, whilst they themselves were ranting negatively about Thai people.

i suppose it rather might depend on where you are. in the predominantly tourist areas for example, this is something you hear many

times every day. some of the locals just seem to enjoy passing the time this way. it's a rather nasty habit and since most tourists do

blow through town in 2 weeks no harm done. but then again, i don't ever remember myself sitting around insulting others in a language

i thought they didn't understand. you really don't have to be here but a couple of months to understand some of these swearing words.

[ronz28]

You can't just speak Thai to get some respect. You have to learn to sing it too like Jonas and Kristy.

Good luck !

[withnail]

i suppose it rather might depend on where you are. in the predominantly tourist areas for example, this is something you hear many

times every day. some of the locals just seem to enjoy passing the time this way. it's a rather nasty habit and since most tourists do

blow through town in 2 weeks no harm done. but then again, i don't ever remember myself sitting around insulting others in a language

i thought they didn't understand. you really don't have to be here but a couple of months to understand some of these swearing words.

I get your point, but it begs the question "Are these examples of rude Thai people taking advantage of their first language to unfairly criticize innocent tourists or are they just commenting on what they have seen?" If you're talking about the bar scene then sure some people have filthy mouths on them, but it's hardly unfitting in that environment. And there's no way the tourists in those bars aren't talking about the Thais in the confidence they don't understand. In fact I'd be lying if I said I hadn't on occasion done this before myself.

Personally, after being sat on a bar stool in Pattaya for 10 minutes I'm usually sat with my friend commenting on the state of all the a__holes walking around the place. Can't say it would then occur to me what language I was doing it in.

Edited August 28, 2009 by withnail

[kokesaat]

Times that knowing some Thai have proved useful:

On a longtail boat with a sea gypsy who spoke not a word of English. Asked to stay in a particular area to do some snorkeling. Mission accomplished.

On a multi-day bike ride, looking for a resort late in the afternoon. Needed directions. Mission accomplished.

A gazillion restaurants in the middle of Nakhon Nowhere….no picture menus, no English spoken. Mission accomplished.

Ever try asking for some extra too-a ngork (ถั่วงอก) for your soup? Mission accomplished.

Considering parking your truck/car in front of a sign that says ห้ามจอดรถ or when barreling down a road and seeing a sign that says ชะลอความเร็ว. Mission accomplished.

You’re desperate for a home cooked meal, but struggle with the Thai instructions on how to cook your MaMa Noodles. Mission accomplished.

Why doesn't this stupid taxi driver understand me when I tell him to take me to Rama 4 road? พระราม ๔, ครับ . Mission accomplished.

Having lived in Thailand for 13 years, but only just learning the language the past 4 years, it’s night and day. Can I converse with the folks over a beer? No. Can I understand Thai soap operas? No (Thank God!). Do I regret not buckling down 13 years ago and learning the language? You bet!

[philo]

Thanks for the many opinions.

Personally I connected with the author on the point that the candy shop 'magic' of Thailand is very soon lost when you get to know their language and their 'culture'.

Who hasn't heard one taxi driver say to another:

มีลูกค้าหรือยัง

Answer:

มี ฝรั่งสามตัว

Or when some person with 4 years of education - not even able to read his native language - say (refering to the farang) to another clerk in the shop where you are trying to explain that a 'nut' is not the same as a 'bolt':

มันไม่เข้าใจ

Well, if I did'nt take it seriously, it could have been great fun.

(PS Excuse me if there are mis-spellings, I cannot really write Thai.)

I find it strange that nobody reacted to my post quoted above.

The statements given are as polite as : 'foreigners three pieces/items' and 'it (not he/she) doesn't understand (i.e. is stupid)'.

I also find it amusing that no poster here knows that the Thais call a 'bolt' (as in cylindrical screw with a head) a 'nut'.

I for one wonder if it had been better not learning anything more than polite greetings, a smile and a stay calm attitude.

[meadish_sweetball]

Maybe they did not react because it did not ring true with their experiences, and because the post actually reads more like a troll attempt than an honest question. I know that is the case with me anyway.

That's not to say that using ตัว in มี ฝรั่งสามตัว is not rude. It is, although I've never heard it used anywhere in over 10 years, but I tend to stay away from the most touristy areas and red light districts, so that could well be the reason. But maybe you should not hold taxi drivers in those places to the highest standards either, or at any rate, not make them out as representatives of the politeness level of over 60 million other, individual, Thais?

Using มัน is not always that big a deal, in the countryside dialects of Isaan and Northern Thailand it's used as a casual way of referring to people in the third person that one does not afford special status, i.e. a fair few people, mainly those younger than oneself. Including other Thais, even family members.

It's sloppy, yes, but don't confuse it with English 'it' because when you would say 'It does that' meaning 'He/She/They does/do that' in English it would be a strong deviation from the norm of using other pronouns when talking about people.

What the Thais call a nut versus a bolt is rather uninteresting (although I can see how the situation was annoying for you) as when you're speaking Thai, you are expected to assign the Thai meaning to a word - a loan word takes on its own life in a new language and this is not something unique to Thai, one can find several examples in English where a loan word has drifted from its original meaning in the source language.

[SoftWater]

Maybe they did not react because it did not ring true with their experiences, and because the post actually reads more like a troll attempt than an honest question. I know that is the case with me anyway.

Hmm...i thought like this about the OP too, till I read the article on Stickman. I rather liked the article - it points out some very common experiences of being a foreigner here, and I was particularly interested in the comparisons with Latin America. I have to say I, too, often find it frustrating that it is so difficult to socialise informally, even with my Thai family, and to develop anything other than the most superficial relationships with local people, neighbours and colleagues.

I do think that learning Thai can only help to ameliorate that barrier, though, and in fact his story only made me think how important learning Thai is.. As someone else said here, the author's Thai is probaby not as good as he thinks it is. I have the same experience that he does - sometimes I speak Thai and people reply to me in English. However, I have often (jealously) noted that this RARELY happens with one of my farang friends who speak Thai far more clearly and fluently than I. To my chagrin, I have been places with him when I speak Thai to someone first, and they respond to me in English. Then my friend picks up the conversation in Thai and the Thai person switchest to Thai! Arggghhhh! That is SO i. depressing (at the time) but also ii. motivating (afterwards). It gives me a target to aim for, and it shows it is possible.

[meadish_sweetball]

I have to say I, too, often find it frustrating that it is so difficult to socialise informally, even with my Thai family, and to develop anything other than the most superficial relationships with local people, neighbours and colleagues.

I think many people feel that way, but it was the second post I thought looked more trollish, not the first.

[GarryP]

Thanks for the many opinions.

Personally I connected with the author on the point that the candy shop 'magic' of Thailand is very soon lost when you get to know their language and their 'culture'.

Who hasn't heard one taxi driver say to another:

มีลูกค้าหรือยัง

Answer:

มี ฝรั่งสามตัว

Or when some person with 4 years of education - not even able to read his native language - say (refering to the farang) to another clerk in the shop where you are trying to explain that a 'nut' is not the same as a 'bolt':

มันไม่เข้าใจ

Well, if I did'nt take it seriously, it could have been great fun.

(PS Excuse me if there are mis-spellings, I cannot really write Thai.)

I find it strange that nobody reacted to my post quoted above.

The statements given are as polite as : 'foreigners three pieces/items' and 'it (not he/she) doesn't understand (i.e. is stupid)'.

I also find it amusing that no poster here knows that the Thais call a 'bolt' (as in cylindrical screw with a head) a 'nut'.

I for one wonder if it had been better not learning anything more than polite greetings, a smile and a stay calm attitude.

I have heard this and variations of the same before. Also, when I first read your post it got my hackles up just reading it. You can be sitting next to the driver chatting away in Thai and the next second he answers the radio and refers to you as an "it". I just don't understand why. I do not visibly get angry but am usually seething inside. However, completey ignore the driver afterwards and demand my change in full when at the destination. Normally, I would round up the meter charge and oftentimes throw in a bit more if the service was good.

So knowing Thai can have its downside, but overall for someone who is making their life here away from the tourist areas I would say indispensible. There is so much I would not be able to do easily if I could not speak and read the language.