To 'thai' Or Not To 'thai'?

[meadish_sweetball]

You can be sitting next to the driver chatting away in Thai and the next second he answers the radio and refers to you as an "it".

Don't make the mistake of literal translation or catching one single word of many... A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Try to check the context of what he is talking to the other person about, not just the pronoun...

Consider that he was talking to you just before. What was the tone of your conversation? Did he have reason to be insulting? If not, he obviously knew you understood and spoke Thai so do you really think that he would deliberately use a word about you that he meant as an insult? If you find this as unlikely as I do, chances are it is just the way he speaks to his friends or family...

[GarryP]

It was not meant as a direct insult. It was just the way of refering to foreigners as things. But even though it was not meant as an insult, common sense would surely dictate that he refer to a person as a person.

[philo]

Point taken. Case rested. Hopefully solved with a ยิ้ม.

Not shure though which of the 13 ones I should choose...

Anyway, have had a day off - it has been fun.

Thanks

[meadish_sweetball]

It was not meant as a direct insult. It was just the way of refering to foreigners as things. But even though it was not meant as an insult, common sense would surely dictate that he refer to a person as a person.

I'm speculating here, but I think chances are he and many others do not think of it as referring to a thing unless it's pointed out to them, it's just something they are used to saying - คำติดปาก - and may never have reflected over - I have found common sense is less common than we commonly expect...

[RickBradford]

It's perhaps instructive to spin this question around.

What are the consequences -- good or bad -- of a long-term resident actively deciding to avoid trying to learn the language?

[Johpa]

As I read the rambling piece I was contemplating writing a response until I came to the end of the piece (note: I had by then already begum skimming the verbiage well before the end) when I noticed it was posted on the Stickman website, which pretty much negated the need for any further response other than noting, in my less than humble opinion, what a load of crap.

[tmd5855]

Different people (Ex-Pats) have their own reasons to learn Thai.

I have to admit, I cannot read Thai, can speak it fairly well and be understood. Since I live here, work offshore 4weeks on/off, have lots of spare time, enjoy spending that time up the village/farm. No one can speak English so it was sensible to learn Thai.

Have heard many rude comments made by Thai's on Farangs. But the Farangs were twice as rude with their behaviour and language.

Local taxi drivers I use have always been well mannered, yet they thought I could not speak Thai, let the cat out of the bag when one said I were a certain nationality. Told him in Thai were I came from, received laughs and smiles

My GF speaks English in the house to me, I correct her on grammar or suggest another noun/verb that would be a better fit in what she said. I speak Thai to her, she then reciprocates with the corrections.

Intend to spend the rest of my life here in Thailand, not to learn and speak Thai would be foolish.

Your demenour, body language and the projection of oneself has a bigger role to play on how the Thais treat you than your ability to converse in Thai.

Pom song satangs

[Rikker]

I'm of two minds about the piece -- while it does reflect many common experiences for the Thai learner, including criticisms I've thought to myself, I think his attitude about it all is extremely jaded and unproductive.

I struggle sometimes to suppress a negative attitude and a quick temper. I've been down this path before. I've also embarrassed myself when reacting to what I thought was an insult, but which turned out to be completely unrelated.

A little knowledge is, as they say, a dangerous thing.

We're better off giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Between simple misunderstandings and cultural differences, most of the stuff we're inclined to take offense at is in fact harmless. The use of ฝรั่ง and มัน are two of the most common misconceptions that get foreigner riled up over what is usually nothing at all. And as has been wisely pointed out -- those who tend to get replied to in English have usually overrated their own Thai abilities.

It is as if some people insist on walking around with a sunburned ego. Even a well-meaning verbal pat on the shoulder is met with a transformation into a shrieking banshee.

And P.S. On the topic of nuts and bolts -- technically, Thais call both a นอต (or น็อต), from English "nut". The bolt is called a นอตตัวผู้ ("male nut") and the nut is called a นอตตัวเมีย ("female nut"). As Meadish points out, loan words take on their own life and meanings in a new language. To take exception that the meaning from the original language has not been preserved for our convenience seems misguided.

[Lopburi99]

It's perhaps instructive to spin this question around.

What are the consequences -- good or bad -- of a long-term resident actively deciding to avoid trying to learn the language?

For me the language problem prevents me from understanding true realities here. It is difficult enough to understand people's motives in our home country while speaking in our native language. I have some suspicions about some people's motives here and don't like not being able to know what is really going on in reality here. Who is smiling at me every day but is truly disingenuous? Long term I see that as a problem. Maybe the less Thai I understand, the better off I am, but intuitively I don't believe that.

[philo]

It's perhaps instructive to spin this question around.

What are the consequences -- good or bad -- of a long-term resident actively deciding to avoid trying to learn the language?

For me the language problem prevents me from understanding true realities here. It is difficult enough to understand people's motives in our home country while speaking in our native language. I have some suspicions about some people's motives here and don't like not being able to know what is really going on in reality here. Who is smiling at me every day but is truly disingenuous? Long term I see that as a problem. Maybe the less Thai I understand, the better off I am, but intuitively I don't believe that.

Lopburi99,

I like your pragmatic way of thinking.

First - please open the 13 kind of smiles.

Then watch

and see if you can recognize which of the 13 forms it is.

Anyway - have a nice Saturday.

PS My wife has taken my money, my car and my children - but not my computer and the beers - so I guess I have to try to amuse myself by reading TV today also (and sometimes it is great fun). If the video in the link is deemed derogatory to Thailand, please have a MODERATOR delete this post ASAP.

Thanks

(Reason for edit: I just realized it is Saturday today, so I will be alone two days. Implication: No money => No more beers.)

Edited August 29, 2009 by philo

[Lopburi99]

Lopburi99,

I like your pragmatic way of thinking.

First - please open the 13 kind of smiles.

Then watch

and see if you can recognize which of the 13 forms it is.

Anyway - have a nice Saturday.

PS My wife has taken my money, my car and my children - but not my computer and the beers - so I guess I have to try to amuse myself by reading TV today also (and sometimes it is great fun). If the video in the link is deemed derogatory to Thailand, please have a MODERATOR delete this post ASAP.

Thanks

(Reason for edit: I just realized it is Saturday today, so I will be alone two days. Implication: No money => No more beers.)

That's quite interesting about the 13 smiles....thanks. I think we could all add some of our own and have some fun so I am going to start a new topic to do just that.

BTW, sorry to hear about no beer and no money for two days! Was your wife, erm, smiling when she left?

[bifftastic]

i was having a running problem with the local taxi rank because i did not want a moto-taxi 5 times everyday

and they were yak-yak-yak-yak and it wasn't until i insulted them back that they shut the <removed>-up. granted,

that might not work for everyone but they have no conception some people might understand the insults.

so then. the fact that you CAN speak Thai is a good thing, because you were able to let them know you understaood and they shut the f*uck up? yes?

I'm only just starting to learn Thai but, generally speaking, I believe that it is important for everyone to try and learn the language of a place you intend to visit regularly or settle in. Enem if I'm only going for a holiday somewhere I try to learn a few basic words. Firstly, I enjoy it as a learning experience, and secondly, I fond that many people do appreciate it, even if they then take the opportunity to practise their English and never speak to me in Thai.

I wish that more people who came to live in the UK learned and spoke English!

As for hearing people insult you wouldn't you rather know than not?

I know I would, admittedly it can be annoying to hear but then you get the opportunity to say something to them, not sure i would go down the same route as you by insulting them back, more often than not i probably would though! Another tactic might be a polite comment about the weather and who they fancy in the game tonight :-)

[tmd5855]

Lopburi99,

(Reason for edit: I just realized it is Saturday today, so I will be alone two days. Implication: No money => No more beers.)

That's quite interesting about the 13 smiles....thanks. I think we could all add some of our own and have some fun so I am going to start a new topic to do just that.

BTW, sorry to hear about no beer and no money for two days! Was your wife, erm, smiling when she left?

Smiling when she left? Cruel.... bet you pulled the legs of spiders when you were a lad.

Only joking

555 555 555

[Atmos]

overheard conversations . . .

but don't you love the looks if they realise you have some understanding?

Priceless

Edited August 29, 2009 by genghis61

[Lopburi99]

Lopburi99,

I like your pragmatic way of thinking.

First - please open the 13 kind of smiles.

Then watch

and see if you can recognize which of the 13 forms it is.

Anyway - have a nice Saturday.

PS My wife has taken my money, my car and my children - but not my computer and the beers - so I guess I have to try to amuse myself by reading TV today also (and sometimes it is great fun). If the video in the link is deemed derogatory to Thailand, please have a MODERATOR delete this post ASAP.

Thanks

(Reason for edit: I just realized it is Saturday today, so I will be alone two days. Implication: No money => No more beers.)

That's quite interesting about the 13 smiles....thanks. I think we could all add some of our own and have some fun so I am going to start a new topic to do just that. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Words-Smiles-t293641.html

BTW, sorry to hear about no beer and no money for two days! Was your wife, erm, smiling when she left?

Link to new thread added

[Gonsalviz]

You can be sitting next to the driver chatting away in Thai and the next second he answers the radio and refers to you as an "it".

Don't make the mistake of literal translation or catching one single word of many... A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Try to check the context of what he is talking to the other person about, not just the pronoun...

Consider that he was talking to you just before. What was the tone of your conversation? Did he have reason to be insulting? If not, he obviously knew you understood and spoke Thai so do you really think that he would deliberately use a word about you that he meant as an insult? If you find this as unlikely as I do, chances are it is just the way he speaks to his friends or family...

In the english speaking world a cabbie refers to a passenger as a fare. That is an it.

[Gonsalviz]

I like being able to understand what they are saying about me.

Since some think all farang cannot speak Thai, they tend to say things that they would not if they knew you could speak the lingo.

Most people have done this. Myself included. Unless it is really harsh, I ignore it.

It really embarrasses them though when you speak to them in Thai later on.

I still will not negotiate in Thai because my skills are not that good.

[Richard W]

In the english speaking world a cabbie refers to a passenger as a fare. That is an it.

No, it's then a 'he' or a 'she'.

[samran]

You can be sitting next to the driver chatting away in Thai and the next second he answers the radio and refers to you as an "it".

Don't make the mistake of literal translation or catching one single word of many... A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Try to check the context of what he is talking to the other person about, not just the pronoun...

Consider that he was talking to you just before. What was the tone of your conversation? Did he have reason to be insulting? If not, he obviously knew you understood and spoke Thai so do you really think that he would deliberately use a word about you that he meant as an insult? If you find this as unlikely as I do, chances are it is just the way he speaks to his friends or family...

In the english speaking world a cabbie refers to a passenger as a fare. That is an it.

My cabbie the other night was telling me how he visits prostitutes at least once a month. I guess the opposite can happen once you become good at another language - too much information.

[aussiebebe]

Am I the only person who is somewhat skeptical of the person who authored the piece 'To 'thai' or Not To 'thai'? I have serious doubts that he can really speak Thai very well at all because he even writes that he is flustered when Thai's speak to him at full speed. If he's fustrated that Thai's respond to him in English, I would assume that it's a measure of how poorly he speaks Thai. He complains that Thais even try to speak English with him when they can't - yet if he's managing to get these people to speak English with him he really must be leaving them with no choice! Whatever he says to them initially must be so incomprehensible to the Thai person that they can't even tell him to piss off in Thai, because he obviously (in their opinion) couldn't understand it. They must feel, after listening to his attempts at Thai, that they'd literally be wasting their breath, replying to him in Thai. So they don't.

Furthermore, the author of the Stickman piece sounds fairly jaded and his article makes little sense. He writes that by learning Thai, he lost his illusion of Thai's being polite. I don't understand. He came to live in one of the most prominent places on Earth with a reputation for it's adult entertainment industry and he though Thai's were polite? If taking off a spacesuit were a metaphor for learning Thai, it would be like him paying to become a space tourist and then complaining that he thought there was oxygen in space when he took off his suit and suffocated. [insult removed.]

This leads me to a general criticism I have of foreigners I meet in Thailand. Lots of foriegners (such as the articles author) have grossly over-inflated opinions of how well they can speak Thai. "Oh, I taught myself from a book" they say, when they can't even say their name with the correct tones, or the best one "My friend speaks fluent Thai" if they can't, how can they assess their friend's ability accurately? A little more honesty would go a long way.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Rikker

[philo]

Oh my dear.

There is no 'pieces' or 'articles' here (as in pluralis). There is only one written opinion called : Was It A Mistake To Learn Thai?

The phrase (however stupid): 'To 'thai' or Not To 'thai'?' is the header of the thread.

Got it?

Good.

[sabaijai]

Frankly, I get the impression that the poster on the stickman site doesn't speak Thai well at all.

If you do speak it well, there is nil chance that a Thai person, regardless of their level of English, will speak back to you in English. The only time that happens is if you speak Thai badly, and they try and help you out with their limited English.

My thoughts exactly.

[kriswillems]

7 years ago I stayed about 1 year in Thailand without learning any Thai (besides the numbers). I really didn't feel at home here. I didn't hang around with other farang because the places you'll meet most farang are not my favorite places to hang out. I felt quiet lonely around that time. I tended to see only the negative sides of Thailand and after 1 year I was very happy I could go back home.

2 years ago I arrived again in Thailand. This time i decided to study the language. I can read/write Thai and have a normal conversation about general subjects. I still don't hang around with other farang. I just like talking to Thai people more. I really feel at home here. Now I see many beautiful sides of Thailand, Thai people and Thai culture that I couldn't see before. And this time I don't want to go back home.

So, learning Thai can change your life.

Although my Thai is far from perfect, and maybe even not good, most Thai talk in Thai to me. The exceptions are usually people that are perfect in English (people that lived abroad of people with a master/bachelor in English) or people that want to study English.

I've met a few farang that have lived here for more than 10 years and that can't even order a simple dish in a small food-stall. They always get something different from expected. Many of these people feel very lonely here and their friends seem to be only farang. Their life is really hard, because they almost can't do anything if nobody helps them. I feel so sorry for them and I am not sure what is worse: having a physical handicap or having a language handicap.

Reasons for not studying Thai vary, some people say they have no time, some say there's no need, some say they can't hear the tones, some say they are just too stupid. All these reasons are more not "reasonable"... they are excuses. In many ways you can compare these reasons with the reasons a chain-smoker uses to explain why he can't stop smoking.

Daring to take a step in the unknown takes courage, but it's often very rewarding.

[SoftWater]

"My friend speaks fluent Thai" if they can't, how can they assess their friend's ability accurately? A little more honesty would go a long way.

Fluency is a little more complex than your 'it takes one to know one' rule. Language comprehension and language production are distinct skills. One may not be able to speak a language as well as one can understand it.

Anyone who's made a serious effort at learning Thai can tell the difference between a farang who speaks like themselves (or worse) and one that speaks more like a native thai. Most of us can also tell the difference between a competent farang speaking thai and a thai speaking thai merely from audio, without seeing the speaker. It's not a special skill, it just comes with exposure to the language.

Edited August 31, 2009 by SoftWater

[Briggsy]

Very jaded writer but he does make some very valid points. I also hate the pronoun 'you' ยู reserved for foreigners and the ridiculous translation of the easy words. I rather suspect he is never straying too far from totally touristed areas judging by his article.

I don't believe he's Italian either. I think he added this detail to make another valid point.

[Rionoir]

I KNOW guys that think they can speak "pretty good" Thai, but can't, and people almost always respond to them in English. LoL Any farang I know that does speak pretty good Thai, people will talk to them in Thai. There are exceptions, like the people that went to a university overseas and refuse to speak Thai in public... but, in general, if your Thai really is "pretty good", people are going to speak Thai to you.

Learning Thai has opened up a whole new side of Thailand for me, and I couldn't be friends with some of my current friends if I couldn't speak Thai.

Thai has also gotten my money back from more than 1 young pickpocketter ... haha ... they are much more afraid of u threatening to call the police if u can say it in Thai. ;P

[PeaceBlondie]

The Stickman article was much too long. So is this thread (I made it to post 40).

I decided after five years here to give up even trying to learn Thai. Too difficult; not worth the effort.

[tgeezer]

The Stickman article was much too long. So is this thread (I made it to post 40).

I decided after five years here to give up even trying to learn Thai. Too difficult; not worth the effort.

That depends on what value you put on it surely; most of us are motivated by the need to communicate but I would like to recommend a different approach. For those of us in the evening of our lives who believe that the brain is the most powerful 'muscle' in the body it makes sense to exercise it. I was doing Sudoku when I discovered the RID and found the Thai language to be altogether a much more satisfiing puzzle and wish that I had abandoned other puzzles earlier. The RID is a mighty tome too, so, who knows? there may be a beneficial side effect.

I hope that, when other 'bits' have ceased to perform, I can at least still derive pleasure from trying to solve this final puzzle, and even if I can no longer heft the book, the contents are all on the 'net.

[kokesaat]

T I was doing Sudoku

I did crossword puzzles as well. Neither ever helped make ordering my bowl of noodle soup any easier. ถั่วงอก anyone?

[tgeezer]

T I was doing Sudoku

I did crossword puzzles as well. Neither ever helped make ordering my bowl of noodle soup any easier. ถั่วงอก anyone?

Ah, well I didn't do crossword puzzles so you did them 'as well' as what else?