Lesbians Are Accepted In Thai Society,

[churchill]

'Okay, I need a volunteer. Who here is in Prathom One?'

It's last Saturday and I am standing on a Hat Yai stage in front of a crowd of parents and children who have come to hear me speak about learning English.

I need a volunteer from primary school for a little game. The kids are usually very forthcoming. I'd like to continue that sentence with ''thanks to my winsome personality and unique charms'', but I suspect the bag of brightly-coloured jelly beans in my right hand has more to do with it.

continued

-- Bangkok Post 30/08/09

[cdnvic]

Link?

[churchill]

Link - http://www.bangkokpost.com/life/family/229...s-toms-and-dees

[mahtin]

10-foot poles?

[Tingnongnoi]

10-foot poles?

yeh that part lost me also

[LordDude]

10-foot poles?

yeh that part lost me also

I think the author means that such poles would be used by men to keep a distance of 10-feet between them and any manly-looking female that began to show interest.

[Jingthing]

10 foot is a bit much ...

Happy to hear the Toms are accepted.

[PeaceBlondie]

I question Andrew's experience as being typical of Thai culture.

[geriatrickid]

Mr. Biggs uses a cutsie warm and fuzzy story complete with the usual stereotype of a dyke on a bike to let us know lesbians are ok in Thailand. Yea right. It's bad enough that women are often treated shabbily, but toss in the sexual identity and they are indeed the subject of discrimination. Lesbians can and do have a hard time if they try and break out of their social strata.

Reference is then made to some child that identifies as a male. Cripes, even I can differentiate between gender identity and sexual preference. What Mr. Biggs was probably was observing was a sexual gender indentity confusion, not sexual preference identification. (By confusion, I mean it in the pure sense, where a child will gravitate towards what the brain is wired for vs. what the body organs are.) Toss in a weird mom and that child is anything, but a lesbian.

The article by Mr Biggs is written from a male perspective and avoids using some of the more prominent presumed lesbians in Thailand to show the reality. Those of you that have been around for awhile will mostly likely think of one lady in particular. She works long hours, is extremely well educated and intelligent. I don't think anyone else in her social circle cares as much about Thailand or tries to make a positive difference as much as she does. However, there is never any mention of her companion, no being "out", no real acceptance of what she may feel in her heart. If there was, her partner would be allowed to accompany her at functions, would appear in public and her personal life would not be so hushed up. When there is no resistance to allowing her to live her life, then I will believe the story.

Edited August 30, 2009 by geriatrickid

[astral]

Two ladies, or two guys living together will be accepted, but no-on will ask, or wants to know, where they sleep.

Tolerated is more the word, than accepted.

I know of two such ladies, the have been together for almost 20 year, to my knowledge.

For one, the family knows and accepts the situation,

for the other her family is always trying to get her married off and become "normal". (My quotes)

[G54]

Two ladies, or two guys living together will be accepted, but no-on will ask, or wants to know, where they sleep.

Tolerated is more the word, than accepted.

I know of two such ladies, the have been together for almost 20 year, to my knowledge.

For one, the family knows and accepts the situation,

for the other her family is always trying to get her married off and become "normal". (My quotes)

I know of a gay man who works in a bank in a similar situation. The mother knows he is homosexual but she is now insisting he get married within a year and start a family. She is even choosing the bride for him. It appears that, as he is the only child, the family want to see him married and settled down with children so others can see he is 'normal'.

[EndofDays]

'Okay, I need a volunteer. Who here is in Prathom One?'

It's last Saturday and I am standing on a Hat Yai stage in front of a crowd of parents and children who have come to hear me speak about learning English.

I need a volunteer from primary school for a little game. The kids are usually very forthcoming. I'd like to continue that sentence with ''thanks to my winsome personality and unique charms'', but I suspect the bag of brightly-coloured jelly beans in my right hand has more to do with it.

continued

-- Bangkok Post 30/08/09

Shouldn't this be in the Gay Forum? I wanted to do that, find a post and say "Shouldn't this be in this forum?".

[Ijustwannateach]

It's a kind of newsy post, too... will wait and see if Admin wants it there or not.

Incidentally, some lesbians hold huge power here (and more power to them!)

[Travel2003]

10 foot is a bit much ...

Happy to hear the Toms are accepted.

6 year olds as well?

[IMA_FARANG]

I question Andrew's experience as being typical of Thai culture.

So do I. And futhermore I don't think he has any real insight or much experience with Thai culture or norms.

The fact that a girl plays with boys, hardly makes her a "Lesbian". Secondly. it isn't uncommon for Thai girls to have close female friends, holding hands and embrassing has nothing to do with any "sexual" impulse. And certainly not at six years old.

From what I read in the article, it has more to do with the writers personal preconceptions of what is "female" and "male" behavior and clothing standards. And his prospective is from a Euopean farang viewpoint than from a Thai viewpoint.

An amusing article, but it tells more about the writer and his hangups, than anything about Thai culture.

[sassienie]

I`m actually a Lesbian in a man`s body. Problem is most girls don`t believe me.

Used to love travelling to Holland, to see the dykes.

Edited August 30, 2009 by sassienie

[sokal]

I question Andrew's experience as being typical of Thai culture.

I have heard Thai people blame western influence for having such liberal sex culture in Thailand now but it seems like Thailand is always in the lead.

[dieter1]

I am really fed up with all these comments about how great homosexuals are, how great it is, that they can nearly do everything in public (sometimes nearly having hardcore sex in front of other people!).

I do not like, how homosexuals got discriminated in former days. They were treated as criminals and in my country sometimes even got killed. That was not ok. For me, it is everyones personal choice to decide with whom he/she wants to have sex. Ok, but that´s enough !

But what´s going on today goes far more:

The "politically correct" opinion seems to say: "Hey, it is great to be homosexual. Normal (sorry"heterosexual") men are just boring. Homosexual men have much more fantasy and are not so oldfashioned etc. "

It is even "hip", if an older guy has a young boyfriend. But older men, who prefer the companionship of younger women are kind of perverted ! (but it is also "cool", if an old woman does have a young lover!)

It is kind of chic, to show, that you are homosexual in public ! (Sorry, I do not want to remember everyone all the time that I prefer woman companionship for sex. For me this is only a point, if I am interested in a special women)

In my home-country, we do have a huge problem with having less and less children. Nobody knows, who will take care of us, when we will be old. There will be much less working people in 20 years in my country, so much less tax money and man-power. This is a real problem. And there is no answer to this huge problem.

The families are fallen apart , this is also a growing trend. Parents get divorced even after short time, when having little children. This creating big problems for the children and also for the parents. More and more men and women do not take this risk and decide not to have children. All this means a real big problem for this society and - sorry: it will be my children (for whom I did care and pay so much), who will have to pay and care for all these homosexuals when they get old !

Nowadays, homosexuals are in fact legalized to have kind of marriage. They say, it is also kind of family and the state has to protect them.. What a fuc_k ! Homosexual relationships got the same support from state like other family !

Ähm .. What ? Sorry, they do not have children so its different ! Yes, and therefore, they want the same right for adopting children like other people ! Hey - you want to discriminate us ? So give us children ! For this, the public health system should pay lesbian mothers to have babies and so on ....(no joke ! there is no limit !).

But nearly no one is taking the risk of saying this in public ...... If you do, you are seen as a ultra right. Kind of "Nazi". So normally, people do not say this in public ! If you do, you risk to loose your job or even been treated as a criminal ....

No, I do not want to discriminate homosexuals like in old days. But for me, there is a connection between the fact, how homosexuals are treated and behave in public today and the erosion of "normal" families. For me, helping homosexuals is no more one of the main important task of society today. There are far more important task for politic to day. The problem is, that politics does not give good answers to these real important questions. It seems to be far more pleasant ,to pretend to be the ever shining golden knight for the poor homosexuals. Yes, I believe, today that this far more convenient for politicians. - But not good for the whole society .

It is just like this: If minorities can speak in public of how bad their are being treated without fear of getting real dangerous response for doing that, the discrimination is not a real bad one any more. This is true for homosexuals and for women in my home country.

In countries, where discrimination is still bad, (sometimes even get worth) for women and homosexuals (like most of the Islamic states), these groups normally are not to be heard in public. Because they will be punished very hard for this. So the effect is, that in countries, where discrimination is already very weak, you will hear most of complains in public. Ok, this can´t be the other way round, but you should understand this context. Problem is, that most people do not understand this. So they really believe, that women and homosexuals are totally discriminated in countries like my one, because they hear and read about this issue all the time .... I fact, quite the opposite is true !

And , beside of this, I want add something which is more specific for the original post:

As everyone in my profession knows (or should know!), sexual behavior like "typical girl" or "typical boy (-ish) is something, which is nearly totally learnt in the first years. It is nearly totally dependent from the the expectation of the parents. Young children seem to learn very early, that is is very important to show specific behaviour of boy or girl. There seems to be a very clear message from the parents: Show everyone very clear what kind of sex you have. And - that´s typical for children - the youngsters do their best to fullfill the expectation of the old siblings (parents).

Yes, but why do they sometimes show kind of different reaction (f.e. girl (with vagina!) behaves like a boy and tells us, she is a boy or wants to be a boy) ? I do not want to pretend, that I know everything (this would frighten you!). So far I just want to say: Some times, the expectation of parents are a bit (to say the least !) different: The mother wants a daughter but the baby does have a penis ! :-( Same goes for the father. Or the mother is not able to stand (for what ever reasons) to have a daughter/boy. Or, maybe, the child does get the feeling, that it would be not a good idea to have a specific sex. So it chose the other one, to be on the safe side (this - offcourse - is not a rational decision! It is kind of unconscious decision) . And so on. As I wrote before: In my profession these are very know effects. But, for whatever reasons(!!!), you don´t have to say this in connection with homosexuality (!).

Ok, I did learn my sexual behaviour in young age, like most people do. But no one knows, why someone is homosexual !

Maybe god knows !

Now, all you brave and political correct people: Now it´s your turn .....

[sokal]

I am really fed up with all these comments about how great homosexuals are, how great it is, that they can nearly do everything in public (sometimes nearly having hardcore sex in front of other people!).....................

Now, all you brave and political correct people: Now it´s your turn .....

I agree 100%

Another thing I would add is that girls seem to act like boys more and more. Female crime is up, they seem to get into everything that only boys used to do. Some stupid guys think this is cool , I think there is nothing that is a bigger turn off then some girl acting like a boy.

[PeaceBlondie]

The thread is about Thai lesbianism, not reduced European fecundity or Euro politics.

[hansnl]

The thread is about Thai lesbianism, not reduced European fecundity or Euro politics.

How very true.

But, why is it so very important to show what your sexual preferences are?

Why show the world that the girl you are with is owned by you?

Why are so many of the Thai Lesbians acting so unbelievably morose in public?

Someone's preferred sexual behaviour is so unbelievably disinteresting for me.

So why try to tell me that with words or behaviour.

And repect is not something automatically given, respect needs to be earned.

[twschw]

If it is so "unbelievably disinteresting" to you, why do you feel the need to post a response?

Respect has to be given to be recieved.

edit: spelling

Edited August 31, 2009 by twschw

[bonobo]

The six-year-old girl in the article is not a lesbian.  Her sexual preferences have not developed yet.  She may in fact be exhibiting accepted male tendancies, but many young girls do that.  And some do develop into lesbians, others develop sexual attraction for males.  What is perhaps different in this case is that the child's mother is seeingly encouraging her daughter's more traditionally masculine behavior

Dieter, I am glad you profess dismay for past discrimination for sexual orientation.  However, I do think you are being a little over-dramatic when you write that it is somehow "chic" to be professing homosexual tendancies.

Gays still experience discrimination.  Even here in Thailand, where gays are far more tolerated, male gays are still pigeon-holed into specific professions.  

Our authority figures, our celebrities of note, are still primarily straight men and women.  Viral men who have the ability to bed innumerable women tend to be the figures of esteem in the sports, music, and movie scenes.  We admire these men, wish we were ike tham, and wink at their peccadillos.

When straight men go into a bar in Pattaya or Soi Cowboy or whatever, they tend to become open advertisements for straight male (and sometimes mysogenistic) behavior.  So if gay pride parades or more open displaying of gay behavior is becoming the norm, well, it is still eclipsed by open flaunting of straight behavior.

I understand your concerns about an aging population and smaller families.  But I really doubt that more acceptance of gays has much to do with it.  Sure some gay men, in denial early in their lives, marry women and have children before accepting their real sexual preferences, but I think the problem of shrinking family sizes is much deeper and complex than simple acceptance of homosexuality.

Edited August 31, 2009 by bonobo

[PeaceBlondie]

Non-reproducing, elderly, macho males will be taken care of by my 11 grandchildren and their grandchildren, and by gays and toms and dees..

[clausewitz]

Great article.

love this bit

A village elder came to see me. ''Ajarn Jeab has a problem,'' he said. ''She may not be able to help you. Her fan is jealous.''

In Thailand the word fan is an all-encompassing word meaning boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife/clingy-leech-like-sex-worker-you-met-last-night-who-now-wants-to-spend-the-rest-of-her-days-with-you.

My GF feels a bit put upon by all the Toms that work at california wow. When I said there are more gay males than straight customers at CWOw, implying that I didn't resent them she replied, "yes, but you can hit them if they annoy you, I am afraid of the Toms".

I see there is now a sign in the cwow shower rooms saying that it is strictly one cubicle, one man now.

Overall I think thailands tolerance for gays says a lot about the maturity of the culture, they really do have metta.

[BSJ]

The thread is about Thai lesbianism, not reduced European fecundity or Euro politics.

Yer, I was wondering what the he11 it was all about!

Me, I don't care what you are or who you are. As long as you keep your hands to yourself we will get get along just fine.

[Travel2003]

The thread is about Thai lesbianism, not reduced European fecundity or Euro politics.

Agree.

And here is something about Toms.

I mentioned it in a thread some time back.

At first I was amazed about it, but soon I got annoyed about it.

Why is it ok for a Tom to try to pick up any girl she likes?

Even already taken girls.

They try and try, and most people just giggle when they try.

How many of us have not seen Toms with their harems out on town?

Many times with 2-3 Dees with them.

Naturally, the deal is that the Tom picks up the bill.

And still they flirt and try to pick up girls that are already in a relationship.

I remember my brother was so upset about this.

He was furious.

Do the Toms want to be a boy or a girl?

If they want to be a boy, then they should also accept the fist in their face when they try to pick someone's gf up, infront of the bf's face.

How would the average man react if another guy tried to pick up his gf, strait infront of him?

Seems to be some special rules for the Toms here.

I have absolutely no problem with gays/lesbians/transvestites.

But I hate it when they try to "recruit" people without any discretion.

[bonobo]

The thread is about Thai lesbianism, not reduced European fecundity or Euro politics.

Agree.

And here is something about Toms.

I mentioned it in a thread some time back.

At first I was amazed about it, but soon I got annoyed about it.

Why is it ok for a Tom to try to pick up any girl she likes?

Even already taken girls.

They try and try, and most people just giggle when they try.

How many of us have not seen Toms with their harems out on town?

Many times with 2-3 Dees with them.

Naturally, the deal is that the Tom picks up the bill.

And still they flirt and try to pick up girls that are already in a relationship.

I remember my brother was so upset about this.

He was furious.

Do the Toms want to be a boy or a girl?

If they want to be a boy, then they should also accept the fist in their face when they try to pick someone's gf up, infront of the bf's face.

How would the average man react if another guy tried to pick up his gf, strait infront of him?

Seems to be some special rules for the Toms here.

I have absolutely no problem with gays/lesbians/transvestites.

But I hate it when they try to "recruit" people without any discretion.

I am not trying to be argumentative as I think that kind of behavior is just plain rude, but is that really any different from guys hitting on a woman when the guy she came with is off in the rest room?  Sometimes, I think there is some sort of behavioral switch buried along the Thai border, a sort of moral Maginot Line, and when a plane crosses it, the electronic impulses this line send out turns off or jams the moral compass with which most men embrace and follow when they are in their home countries.

[Huey]

I feel bad for that kid, can the bit&* of a mother give her kid at least 10 or 12 years to get her sexuality streight before she starts pigenholing her into a life of homosexuality?

I have a 10 yer old son, and I want another kid in a year or 2. Should he or any of my future kids turn out to be gay, it will change nothing about my love for them. However, while I'm definetly not the parent of the year, I will never be so false in my duties as a parent, as too foster gayness in them. If it happens it happens, so long as they are healthy otherwise, thats ok. But I don't see how encourageing it would be anything but wrong.

[churchill]

I feel bad for that kid, can the bit&* of a mother give her kid at least 10 or 12 years to get her sexuality streight before she starts pigenholing her into a life of homosexuality?

I have a 10 yer old son, and I want another kid in a year or 2. Should he or any of my future kids turn out to be gay, it will change nothing about my love for them. However, while I'm definetly not the parent of the year, I will never be so false in my duties as a parent, as too foster gayness in them. If it happens it happens, so long as they are healthy otherwise, thats ok. But I don't see how encourageing it would be anything but wrong.

I agree , one of my best friends in the UK has twin boys - around 8/9 years - She thinks one maybe gay but will let them grow up and be free to discover their own feelings , without being told - You are this or that .