Living In China After Thailand

[LaoPo]

If you think the Chinese leaders have "by putting the welfare of the country and it's people first, rather than immersing their selfish, greedy snouts in the corruption trough and devoting all their energies to snapping and devouring those who seek to get a larger share than them" then all I can guess is you have no idea what has happened to China in the last 20 years and have ignored the reporting of it.

Yes indeed, the China has gone through some remarkable development, but it has been at the expense of most of the Chinese people not to their benefit. Do you realize that only 10% of the people have profited from the development and these are mostly the very leaders you think so highly of? There are over 100 million migrant workers living in abject poverty, exploited by these very leaders. The other billion people are still living a subsistence lifestyle, just like they have for 2,000 years. I strongly suggest you do some research on what is actually happening in China. It is a powder keg of dissatisfaction that could explode at anytime.

This topic is one of the most interesting ones in a long time...

I've read you have been working in the Far East for over 10 years Thaihome so you have quite a bit of experience.

But, speaking about the Chinese leaders and prosperity in China for the majority of the population in the past 20 years, can you give me any other example in history and/or countries that made the same progress in 20 years?

Is there any other country in the world with -at present- 1,338,612,968 (July 2009 est.) people...1.3 Billion and some 38 million more ?

You speak about the "other billion" still living a poor lifestyle but you didn't speak about the 300-400 million people who managed to escape bitter poverty in the past 15-20 years BECAUSE of the reforms, put in place since Mao's death and Deng Xiaoping's push towards an open economy.

You do not mention WHAT would have happened if Deng Xiaoping wouldn't had battled to open up the economy....better not discuss, right ?

I've been coming and going into China for over 30 years so Ive seen a bit of what happened... for normal people, living in the west, it's UN-imaginable what happened in China since they didn't see HOW it was before; they just see what's there now and/or heard news from western press sources.

Let them come and visit again, in 5 years, 15 years and they will GASP

There is no other country in the world, I've seen and been to, that changed so much for the better than China.

You may criticize the leaders in Beijing, of course, but there's nobody in the world who managed to bring such dramatic changes and prosperity to their own country as those same leaders did to China, since Deng Xiaoping.

But, sure there's so much more to improve and China has still a long way to go on the path to democracy but that will be long road, simply because there IS no other road than a slow one because sudden democracy in China would mean a terrible civil war with hundreds of ethnic groups fighting each other and such a conflict would spread fast into the region and beyond.

That's something nobody is waiting for.

Thailand?

I came to Thailand even before I went to China and there couldn't be a greater difference in accomplished changes. I'm sorry to say but China leads the way if it comes to dramatic improvement for their population.

6 millions students graduate every year from many top universities; in the past 2 weeks 10 million (!!!) students applied for a "chair" on one of the universities in China; many will not make it, but the best brains of the country will go ahead and study their @rses off for many years because they aim for just one thing: to improve their lifestyle and take care of their families who made it possible for them to study.

Many well-to-do Chinese families send their children to universities abroad, in Australia, NZ, USA, England (!), France, Germany, Holland (agriculture and water management) and one day those well educated will come back to help and improve their country.

There's a big difference between the 2 countries, not in the least that Thailand -qua size and number of citizens (65M)- could be a province of China, spoken in variety, culture and size but not in the ability and eagerness to work and study....

Where to retire?

My Chinese wife and would prefer Thailand

LaoPo

[sabaijai]

When it comes to air pollution, Beijing rates more than double the annual concentrations of SPM Bangkok does, according to cleanairnet.

http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/ar...689_ambient.pdf

[JR Texas]

No, I am not Thai. I am a western expat working for a major multi national that does has done about a billion USD worth of business in Thailand over the past 15 years. I have worked in many Asian countries in the past 10 years. Since Thailand is where we have had a very good business, I have spent a couple of stints here.

Spent a couple golf weekends in Zhuhai, I agree it is a very nice place. But I wonder with all it has to offer, why are there not thousands of western retirees living there like there is in Thailand?

Your other generalities about Thailand only highlight what type of Thai people you associate with here. But it does answer the question why you stay here more then China.

TH

OK..........so you work for an MNC. I forgot to add the part about the outstanding golf course in Zhuhai by the race car track.

The reason it does not, thankfully, have tons of expats is that they have no idea it exists. In addition, many potential expats have a distorted view of China.

I hang out with all types of people, from the top to the bottom.

Why do you care about where I live? Odd.

This thread is about providing information to the OP about China. If you can't do that, why bother posting?

To the poster who wants to let us know the air in Beijing is bad........yes, it is, but not all the time, and that is why the data you posted is a bit misleading.

My guess.......and it is only a guess.......is that Bangkok has more serious pollution days per year than Beijing does. But both are bad......it is a modern-day-hazard associated with big city life, especially in Asia.

To LaoPao........you really seem to have a sophisticated understanding of China.......probably more than all of us combined. You have seen the changes over time, understand the massive challenges the govt. is dealing with (in its own way), and know that China is an economic giant that is modernizing rapidly.

I have to laugh when I hear people talk about Thailand as if it is competitive in comparison to China.........to the Chinese, Thailand is less than an ant.......almost totally insignificant.

That is one reason they pour money into Myanmar and Cambodia.

Do I like what the Chinese government is doing? Not always. But people have to realize what they see.......they see over one billion people in need of jobs and resources. They see potential social instability that could spin out of control. In many cases, I think, their actions reflect this.

[LaoPo]

When it comes to air pollution, Beijing rates more than double the annual concentrations of SPM Bangkok does, according to cleanairnet.

http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/ar...689_ambient.pdf

The data you supplied is 5 to 6 years old and that's before Beijing had it's Olympics and cleaned up the city's environment.

But, of course, it doesn't mean that Beijing is now a clean city.....nor Bangkok.

It will take a few decades before ALL major cities are cleaner than they are now, mainly because of the introduction of electrical cars and motorcycles.

BTW, in many Chinese cities, ALL motorbikes are banned, unlike Bangkok.

What one does see however, are millions of electrical bicycles

LaoPo

[ferd54]

OP

Can you comment on stuff like western food, libraries, parks, exercise possibilities?

Again, all I know is Beijing.

Western food: Absolutely tons of it. I buy my beef at a local German butcher, surloin usually. Far too many Western restaurants for me to ever visit all of them.

Libraries: English-language books are a problem. They are available, but very expensive. One of the remaining paranoias of the gov't is publishing and bookselling, or any media. One basically can't get a license to sell books, so no used book stores, etc. There is a place that gets around that by being a lending library (and then of course sells books too). Absolutely enormous number of Chinese language bookstores -- the Chinese read all the time. Moves are now underway to liberalize the book/publishing/media sector. Shouldn't be too much longer before things change. Enough Chinese read and want English books now, so it will happen to due market pressure (the Chinese do love to do business).

Exercise: One can actually walk and walk and walk here to begin with, especially with the weather the way it is now. I walk at least two miles a day just in my daily life. As well, tons of parks (that really surprised me). Like everything here, they are huge. Also lots of gyms, which are the cool thing among the educated and "hip" Chinese, especially after the Olympics. The Chinese are exercise nuts anyway. Old people are out in the morning doing tai chi, etc. No to mention the possibility of truly (still) riding a bicycle everywhere.

[ferd54]

I am a western expat working for a major multi national that does has done about a billion USD worth of business in Thailand over the past 15 years.

I hope your research/work for your firm is more accurate the tired, old stereotypes and out-of-date data that you've posted in this discussion. As The Donald would say: "You're Fired!"

[NaiGreg]

How about religion? ... in daily life ...

Is Buddhism making a comeback or was it lost in the post-wars generations? Or any of the more ancient Chinese religions?

[JR Texas]

OP

Can you comment on stuff like western food, libraries, parks, exercise possibilities?

Again, all I know is Beijing.

Western food: Absolutely tons of it. I buy my beef at a local German butcher, surloin usually. Far too many Western restaurants for me to ever visit all of them.

Libraries: English-language books are a problem. They are available, but very expensive. One of the remaining paranoias of the gov't is publishing and bookselling, or any media. One basically can't get a license to sell books, so no used book stores, etc. There is a place that gets around that by being a lending library (and then of course sells books too). Absolutely enormous number of Chinese language bookstores -- the Chinese read all the time. Moves are now underway to liberalize the book/publishing/media sector. Shouldn't be too much longer before things change. Enough Chinese read and want English books now, so it will happen to due market pressure (the Chinese do love to do business).

Exercise: One can actually walk and walk and walk here to begin with, especially with the weather the way it is now. I walk at least two miles a day just in my daily life. As well, tons of parks (that really surprised me). Like everything here, they are huge. Also lots of gyms, which are the cool thing among the educated and "hip" Chinese, especially after the Olympics. The Chinese are exercise nuts anyway. Old people are out in the morning doing tai chi, etc. No to mention the possibility of truly (still) riding a bicycle everywhere.

I think it would help a lot of people get an better understanding of what we are talking about if the go to Google and search images for: Beijing and Dalian (both in the north), Shanghai (central coast), Kunming (not too far north of Chiang Mai in the mountains), and Zhuhai (by Hong Kong and Macau).

[LaoPo]

How about religion? ... in daily life ...

Is Buddhism making a comeback or was it lost in the post-wars generations? Or any of the more ancient Chinese religions?

My MIL goes to temples quite a few times per year and stays there 1, 2 or more weeks; she's a devote Buddhist; one of the temples is lead by a 93 year old Monk.

China has hundreds of millions of Buddhists and Buddhism is alive and well.

"Modern Chinese Buddhism

Today the most popular form of Buddhism in both mainland China and Taiwan is a mix of the Pure Land and Chán schools. More recent surveys put the total number of Chinese Buddhists between 660 million (50%) and over 1 billion (80%)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_China

I'm not very well informed about ancient Chinese religions but this link provides some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Religion

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

When it comes to air pollution, Beijing rates more than double the annual concentrations of SPM Bangkok does, according to cleanairnet.

http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/ar...689_ambient.pdf

The data you supplied is 5 to 6 years old and that's before Beijing had it's Olympics and cleaned up the city's environment.

But, of course, it doesn't mean that Beijing is now a clean city.....nor Bangkok.

It will take a few decades before ALL major cities are cleaner than they are now, mainly because of the introduction of electrical cars and motorcycles.

BTW, in many Chinese cities, ALL motorbikes are banned, unlike Bangkok.

What one does see however, are millions of electrical bicycles

LaoPo

In addition of the above, I just read some more info about the development of electrical cars, made in China.

Last year Warren Buffett already bought a substantial stake in a very promising company - BYD -* , formerly a leading battery company but now quickly changing into a major world player and also beginning to start the production of electrical cars:

Excerpt:

"AMBITIOUS PLANS

BYD has ambitious plans for its hybrid and rechargeable electric vehicles, aiming to sell as many as 9 million units by 2025 to take on heavyweights like General Motors GM.UL and Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T).

It launched a gasoline-electric hybrid electric car, F3DM, in China last year and expects to sell its all-electric car e6 to the United States in 2010, a year earlier than its original 2011 target. BYD says the e6 is capable of driving 400 kilometers (249 miles) on a single charge.

"e6 will be launched in the United States by the end of 2010 and they are now being tested under U.S. regulations," Wang said."

Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNew...usbeforethebell

* BYD company info: http://www.byd.com/company.php?index=0

LaoPo

[Hawkup2000]

JR Texas

How about the crime rate? As a westerner, which county do you feel safer in?

[Mark Wolfe]

Ferd54, let's see how living in the People's Republic has affected your brain.

Please write about 300-500 words on whether Taiwan is a part of China or not and explain your reasoning.

[LaoPo]

JR Texas

How about the crime rate? As a westerner, which county do you feel safer in?

I can't answer for JR Texas but I will say:

China is a lot safer than Thailand, day and night including for girls and women.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Ferd54, let's see how living in the People's Republic has affected your brain.

Please write about 300-500 words on whether Taiwan is a part of China or not and explain your reasoning.

...were you listening to Bob Marley's "stir it up" * or what ?

On a serious note, and awaiting Ferd54's answer:

It depends on when someone was born....before or after the Kuomintang fled to, then, Formosa, now Taiwan. The ethnic Taiwanese, now still some 84%** of the population (rest Mainland Chinese) of some 23 million, weren't too happy with the arrival of the brutal and very aggressive, but also very tired soldiers of the Kuomintang after they were defeated by the army of the PLA.

But, Taiwan is a complicated issue and impossible to describe in your "offered" 300-500 words as many books about the history of Taiwan have been and will be written in the future. This topic is about China versus Thailand vv and I think Taiwan would need it's own topic.

*

Bob Marley and his "stir it up"

** other -official- sources speak of: 98% of Taiwan's population is made up of Han Chinese, while 2% are Taiwanese aborigines

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_people

LaoPo

[wilsongbrown]

After more than a decade in Thailand I took a job in Beijing about three years ago. I actually like it better in China. I have written up some of the differences for those who might be curious. For those who are not, I apologize for the length and suggest you read another topic.

Some pros and cons:

Public Transport:

Beijing transport is now top-class, with a subway, bus and taxi system that can rank with any of the best in the world. Bus and subway so cheap they are almost free. Taxis are everywhere, well-regulated and very affordable. Motorcycles are banned from the city. Traffic cameras everywhere, so no one runs red lights. Traffic is very bad at certain times and places, but nowhere near that of many Thai cities. There is actual enforcement, so tickets are issued and they bite hard enough to really hurt. If you want a car, many affordable options because China makes so many cars (it's actually the largest car market in the world now).

Noise:

Beijing is much more quiet. Large dogs are banned, and the one little dog permitted per family is so beloved it is never thrown out onto the street, so there are no packs of feral dogs barking and snarling at night. And while the Chinese are extremely loud people, I have never been disturbed at my home by a neighbor's noise. No two-stroke bikes. They do honk the car horn excessively, unlike Thailand. Construction noise can be a problem, but that too is well-regulated so it doesn't last all night, etc.

Girlfriend:

China's one-child policy has resulted a generation of little princesses that are so self-absorbed that studies say many could meet the definition of pathological narcissism; they will freely tell you how cute, lovely, clever, etc. (all at once) they are, when they might be nothing of the sort, but they truly believe it. They have been thoroughly spoiled by two sets of grandparents and their own parents. Until they learn by hard experience, they expect that other people are there to serve them.

I met a girl much younger than me and we began dating, and she didn't seem to realize that there were two people involved. After enough of her selfish behavior, I broke it off. A few months later we started seeing each other again – with me far more wary – and she seems to have changed. Now we have something closer to a normal give-and-take relationship. It's just no one ever set boundaries for her before. The one-child policy has had a huge negative social impact, but maybe there was no choice given the population and relative poverty of the nation, especially when it was enacted.

That said, she is in many ways very reliable and conscientious. After so many years in Thailand I thought she was lying to me about how she spent her time, but when it all played out, I was wrong, but luckily I hadn't really accused her of seeing another guy. I still have a hard time trusting people here after my years in Thailand and all the disappointing experiences I had trying to find trustworthy mates/friends.

(Incidentally, she is beautiful, and there indeed are a lot of beautiful women here. As well, they seemed to be better educated and hard-working).

I also have a couple of Chinese guys who are my friends and I like and respect them. I never came remotely close to having a Thai guy as my true friend.

Cost of living

Beijing is quite a bit more expensive than Thailand, but the pay and quality of life are far superior. On balance, a better deal.

Food

Thailand has it hands down. North Chinese cooking is just loaded with oil – in fact they call it "edible oil" and it is a significant ingredient in many dishes. You see old people hauling five-gallon containers of the stuff home all the time. But Thai food beats about any cuisine. The fresh vegetables in China are far superior and the beef as good as the U.S. I've basically gone back to a beef diet. Because this is a temperate climate, vegetables and fruit grow more slowly and seem much richer as a result. As well, parts of China have natural black soil as good as Canada, U.S. and the Ukraine.

Housing

My apartment in Beijing has central heating, air conditioning and hot water. Broadband internet is available everywhere. All appliances, etc. work fine and there has never been a power cut.

Weather

The work they did for the Olympics really did improve things greatly. BKK and Chiang Mai are far more polluted in my opinion. We are now going into the autumn season with cool nights and clear skies. In winter it can get damned cold, especially the wind howling in from Mongolia and Siberia, but I have found that I have far more energy and enjoy wearing heavy clothes (at least as the cold weather begins). It can get brutal, however, and one is thankful to see the first buds of spring. On balance, I think I prefer four seasons. In Thailand it's hot, rainy and hot, and killer hot.

Police

No drunk policemen with guns here. In fact, one rarely sees a uniformed policeman, but I understand there are undercover police everywhere. Extremely safe place. Women go about their business at all times without much concern for personal safety. I'm too old for such nonsense, but I have heard that expat vs Chinese fights do occasionally happen in the Sanlitun area – the only place I've seen here that reminds me of the kind of tourist ghettos one sees in Thailand – between drunks. It seems a similar tale: 10 Chinese guys come to the aid of their friend. Only here, the foreigner is quickly deported and that's the end of the story.

Government

Visa: Once you receive a visa you do not have to keep checking in. In my case I have a one-year working visa which required a medical check on blood, TB, blood pressure and basic heart EKG. Then you have to register with the police in the city district, then you're done. You can also leave and re-enter without needing a re-entry stamp.

Of course one is well aware of the Big Brother approach to government, but in my life, the only real impact so far is the annoying habit of blocking internet sites. But most users – expat and Chinese – are proficient in using a proxy server and simply go around the firewall. I decided I wouldn't try to tell the Chinese how to run China, so the fact there is no democracy hasn't ruined my life. You who live in Thailand live with a government dominated by godfathers, the elite and all the rest that I can't go into. Is that better than the Chinese approach? All this red, yellow and whatever shirt stuff started as I was leaving Thailand and I was very ready to bid it farewell.

Biggest upsides in China:

Infrastructure is vastly superior and much more opportunity. More reliable relationships.

Biggest downsides:

Far too many people, far too many people who are extremely loud, and a period of very cold weather.

Typical expat. You're not talking about CHINA, you're talking about BEIJING. Not quite the same is it? Rather like comparing Bangkok with Mukdahan.

Do try to get out into CHINA and report back on your experiences in CHINA. (And people knock Phuket for not being 'in Thailand ...')

[wilsongbrown]

Forgot, what was the point of this utterly useless post?

[klikster]

Spent a couple golf weekends in Zhuhai, I agree it is a very nice place. But I wonder with all it has to offer, why are there not thousands of western retirees living there like there is in Thailand?

Does China offer year to year retirement visas? Could that be the answer?

[Time Traveller]

Another post about how terrible people from Thailand are, and how good people from <insert country name> are. Did anyone think for just a minute that the fault lies within them rather than blaming the other people. People are basically the same wherever you go. You see the greedy the stupid, the vain and the normal. Well good luck with that, I just don't understand why you feel the need to "educate" all of us how bad Thailand and the people are.

[IanForbes]

Typical expat. You're not talking about CHINA, you're talking about BEIJING. Not quite the same is it? Rather like comparing Bangkok with Mukdahan.

Do try to get out into CHINA and report back on your experiences in CHINA. (And people knock Phuket for not being 'in Thailand ...')

Did you actually READ EVERYTHING the OP wrote? He wrote exactly what you said. He compared Beijing to Thailand, not all of China... and he pointed that out. People take a few issues out of context and then bicker over those issues. Anybody with half a brain knows that Pattaya and Phuket are not the real Thailand; nor are Bangkok and Chiang Mai for that matter. Thailand is a mosaic of all of it, and so is China.

[ferd54]

Ferd54, let's see how living in the People's Republic has affected your brain.

Please write about 300-500 words on whether Taiwan is a part of China or not and explain your reasoning.

Sorry but I don't due your bidding. If you have anything to say, say it. Other than that, perhaps you should just keep reading.

[ferd54]

But, Taiwan is a complicated issue

OK then.

The colleagues I know well enough have basically told me Mao was a big mistake and the Cultural revolution is widely criticized even in the State-run media. Many wonder what the nation would be like if the KMT had won instead. The KMT is still respected for its attempts to battle the Japanese. So, the Taiwanese are indeed still considered brothers, and actually respected in their own way.

A few notes to consider:

* The KMT took many of China's most precious historical objects when they fled. While that was at one time seen as an outrage, people today are glad they did that because it saved them from destruction during the Cultural Revolution.

* The two sides are getting close indeed, with direct air service started for the first time a few months back.

* There is a trade fair in Fujian province underway right now that seeks to make business ties across the Taiwan Straits even closer, with a zone in the province dedicated to only that.

Unlike some of the respondents to my original post, I am no self-appointed expert on the broad sweep of geopolitical issues. I do fail to see what my post about life in Beijing has to do with Taiwan, but I'm pretty sure most of these wannabe critics are operating on old conceptions and information. They can try to keep the Taiwan "conflict" going in their own minds, but the Chinese are well on their way to working it out. I would suspect there will be a "middle path" solution where both sides save face and they continue to integrate, much like what has happened in Kong Kong.

[JR Texas]

JR Texas

How about the crime rate? As a westerner, which county do you feel safer in?

To tell you the truth, I have never really felt unsafe in Thailand, but the petty crime bothers me (e.g., stealing stuff). But, to answer your question, I think I feel safer in China.

You just don't read or hear about foreigners being murdered or beaten, etc. Maybe that is reality; maybe it is the fact that the media is censored (but the media is censored in Thailand too). Maybe it is because the Chinese know that the last place they want to be is inside a Chinese prison.

One thing I should add......China does a good job of weeding out the scumbag foreigners. You see a different class of foreigners in China........most, I think, are professionals or retired professionals of some sort.

For those contemplating moving to China, you might want to consider living in both China and Thailand.........China during the extremely hot months in Thailand, and Thailand during the few months when the weather is tolerable.

The combination is interesting. Both countries have something to offer.

[thaihome]

...The combination is interesting. Both countries have something to offer.

I don't disagree with that statement and it probably sums up it best. I did not mean come across as unfairly criticizing China. Though apparently some do not think I am being factual, they have yet to post anything different.

Found this interesting link from the US State Dept, dated 20 July 2009, about China.

Business disputes in China are not always handled through the courts. Recently, incidents have increased of American citizens being kidnapped or detained by workers or hired gangs for the specific purpose of extorting money, sometimes millions of dollars, or intimidated for other gains. In the latter cases, the American is typically threatened with violence and detained at a factory, hotel, or private residence until payment is negotiated and delivered. Sometimes the American is physically assaulted or abducted.

…

Petty theft remains the most prevalent type of crime impacting Westerners. Pickpockets target tourists at sightseeing destinations, open-air markets, airports, and stores, often with the complicity of low-paid security guards. Violence against foreigners, while rare, is increasing. Over the past year, incidents of violence against foreigners, including stabbings and sexual assaults, have taken place, usually in urban areas where bars and nightclubs are located. Robberies, sometimes at knifepoint, have occurred in western China and more recently in Beijing. Historically, the use of firearms in the commission of a crime has been a rare event in China. However, with the declining economy, the Embassy has observed an uptick in gun-related crimes, including armed robberies of restaurants and banks.

Won’t post the Thailand information, but if anyone wants to compare what the State Dept says, here is the link. Doesn’t sound near as ominous as the China one.

TH

[JR Texas]

...The combination is interesting. Both countries have something to offer.

I don't disagree with that statement and it probably sums up it best. I did not mean come across as unfairly criticizing China. Though apparently some do not think I am being factual, they have yet to post anything different.

Found this interesting link from the US State Dept, dated 20 July 2009, about China.

Business disputes in China are not always handled through the courts. Recently, incidents have increased of American citizens being kidnapped or detained by workers or hired gangs for the specific purpose of extorting money, sometimes millions of dollars, or intimidated for other gains. In the latter cases, the American is typically threatened with violence and detained at a factory, hotel, or private residence until payment is negotiated and delivered. Sometimes the American is physically assaulted or abducted.

…

Petty theft remains the most prevalent type of crime impacting Westerners. Pickpockets target tourists at sightseeing destinations, open-air markets, airports, and stores, often with the complicity of low-paid security guards. Violence against foreigners, while rare, is increasing. Over the past year, incidents of violence against foreigners, including stabbings and sexual assaults, have taken place, usually in urban areas where bars and nightclubs are located. Robberies, sometimes at knifepoint, have occurred in western China and more recently in Beijing. Historically, the use of firearms in the commission of a crime has been a rare event in China. However, with the declining economy, the Embassy has observed an uptick in gun-related crimes, including armed robberies of restaurants and banks.

Won’t post the Thailand information, but if anyone wants to compare what the State Dept says, here is the link. Doesn’t sound near as ominous as the China one.

TH

We can all posts a massive amount of data on the subject of crime. Crime statistics are notoriously inaccurate, mainly due to under-reporting and misreporting.

Some organizations to follow crime: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita

If you take a look, you will see that Thailand is not positioned well in terms of Most Murderous and Most Crimes........data for China is missing (probably because the govt. is not revealing it, but I don't know for sure).

The US Dept. of State was recently issuing warnings to tourists not to travel to Thailand..........these things come and go.

On balance, I still maintain that I feel safer in China than in Thailand. In Thailand, I have only felt a little unsafe in Pattaya-Jomtien. Some Thais (especially the bhat bus drivers) seem very aggressive and violent there.....the same can be said of some "farangs" who get drunk and want to pick a fight. You also have to watch out for falling farang bodies when you walk near condos, something almost unheard of in China.

[ferd54]

Business disputes in China are not always handled through the courts. Recently, incidents have increased of American citizens being kidnapped or detained by workers ... until payment is negotiated and delivered. Sometimes the American is physically assaulted or abducted.

Violence against foreigners, while rare, is increasing...

The first part is about business disputes, which as we know, can get nasty anywhere. Some German guy was recently blown in half with C4 in Thailand over a suspected business dispute.

It says violence against foreigners is rare, but rising, and that could be due to the rising numbers of foreigners in China. It doesn't say the rate of violence is rising. Actually that US data is misleading crap; I would never rely on the US State Department pronouncements as my guide to unbiased information on a foreign country. That stuff is written for fearful old ladies in Wichita.

[tropo]

...and the fact that they are communist......

or that the site of the Olympics was once housing for people who were forced out and had to watch as their homes were destroyed.

or the fact that pollution goes unchecked...

not saying I wouldn't want to visit there, but to live? Nah.

If we're going down the track of bashing upon a country...there are so many countries we could bash upon that it would fill an entire forum.

Maybe you can start such a forum ? Please leave this one for normal behaviour, instead bashing, if you please.

LaoPo

What bashing, just saying that I couldn't live in a communist country, sheesh. Meow, retract the claws and don't hit me with yuor little red book. You are the one bashing Thailnad. I am voting that Thai women are way hotter than Chinese women!!!

I agree that this post was not bashing at all. I also prefer the look of Thai women over Chinese women.

[JR Texas]

Business disputes in China are not always handled through the courts. Recently, incidents have increased of American citizens being kidnapped or detained by workers ... until payment is negotiated and delivered. Sometimes the American is physically assaulted or abducted.

Violence against foreigners, while rare, is increasing...

The first part is about business disputes, which as we know, can get nasty anywhere. Some German guy was recently blown in half with C4 in Thailand over a suspected business dispute.

It says violence against foreigners is rare, but rising, and that could be due to the rising numbers of foreigners in China. It doesn't say the rate of violence is rising. Actually that US data is misleading crap; I would never rely on the US State Department pronouncements as my guide to unbiased information on a foreign country. That stuff is written for fearful old ladies in Wichita.

Right.......and add to that the 8 unexplained deaths of tourists (guess the Thai govt. would like us to believe all suicides) around Krabi, the two Russians girls murdered in cold blood on Jomtien Beach, the Italian guy's head hanging from a bridge in Bangkok (they also want us to believe that was a suicide.....might have been), the woman shot dead on Khao San Road by an angry Thai man with a gun (said he missed his intended target and hit her instead......right), and you have a lot of bad things happening in Thailand.

The facts about crime are obvious:

1) some countries have very little crime; others have a lot of crime

2) some cities within nations have very little crime; others have a lot of crime

3) some parts of cities within nations have very little crime; other parts have a lot of crime.

Regarding the last point, I can take you to places in Dallas, Texas where you will feel immensely safe, night and day.

I can take you to other places in the same city where you would not want to step outside of your car night or day.

This is true in the USA, China AND Thailand.

Having said that, I actually feel safer in China than I do in the USA.

[tropo]

the two Russians girls murdered in cold blood on Jomtien Beach, the Italian guy's head hanging from a bridge in Bangkok (they also want us to believe that was a suicide.....might have been),

You're stretching here. That (Russian girls) happened year ago and was a very unusual case.

The guy hanging off the bridge did commit suicide. Go back and read that very long thread for details. You would surprised how short a rope will decapitate a body when dropped. This was a big problem back in the days when hanging executions were common. (Less than 5 feet of rope would take my head clean off, for example).

In China people just disappear without any publicity.

Edited September 1, 2009 by tropo

[JR Texas]

the two Russians girls murdered in cold blood on Jomtien Beach, the Italian guy's head hanging from a bridge in Bangkok (they also want us to believe that was a suicide.....might have been),

You're stretching here. That (Russian girls) happened year ago and was a very unusual case.

The guy hanging off the bridge did commit suicide. Go back and read that very long thread for details. You would surprised how short a rope will decapitate a body when dropped. This was a big problem back in the days when hanging executions were common. (Less than 5 feet of rope would take my head clean off, for example).

In China people just disappear without any publicity.

Oh.......we all feel safer now. Thanks.

[thaihome]

...Actually that US data is misleading crap; I would never rely on the US State Department pronouncements as my guide to unbiased information on a foreign country. That stuff is written for fearful old ladies in Wichita.

But, that is exactly what the many do here about Thailand...

Have you ever lived in place in China that is outside the controlled Development Zones? These would be areas that don't have checkpoints, such as surround Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Zuhai, to keep people without permits out.

We lived in Southern China in an area outside the guarded Zones. My personal experience in this area was for the first 6 months we had almost daily muggings and purse snatchings. Often in broad daylight. This was directed almost exclusively on our Chinese employees, though there were 2 or 3 instances of purse snatching of expats. It was only after we heavily lobbied (and agreed to pay for it) for extra police presence in the areas where our Chinese employees were living that this was significantly cut down

Here’s a video to watch

Also, when we went into town, we were incessantly pestered by beggars. They would follow you for blocks. Children would run around screaming to give them money or buy chewing gum from them. It was extremely annoying and made many people reluctant to go out much. They had moto-taxis just like in Thailand, but instead of sitting in a group waiting for people that needed a ride, the ones in China would drive around continually honking their horns. If they saw you walking down the street they would cluster around, following you honking the horns.

At least once a week, on the 5 km drive to the site, there would be dead body on the side of the road. It would be gone in afternoon, so I assume they had some organization that was responsible to pick them up.

The sidewalks in town were completely covered in spit, you just had to ignore it and walk over it. The shopkeepers all over charged and you had count your change carefully. They would refuse to give the tax recipes (fapiao) they are legally required to give, often refusing to do so unless you paid them extra.

Service in the dept stores was deplorable. Once you had paid, you had to go to another counter to get the fapiao, and these in particular were utter chaos. Luckily, as westerners tend to be bigger then the average Chinese, you learned quickly to take advantage of that, otherwise you would never get to the front.

Now I really don’t mean to run down China, I just am trying to give positive criticism and an objective point of view.

TH