Living In China After Thailand

[ferd54]

It's true you cannot generalize about China -- it is so vast in history, culture, land and people that it indeed is almost a world unto itself. I only know Beijing well enough to have the confidence to say anything worthwhile.

It is the people that are probably most important anywhere one lives. Here I have found them to be mostly sincere, intelligent and interesting. The history since the start of the Cultural Revolution alone is fascinating; I have met a few old people and their stories are nothing short of amazing.

My one really bad experience was when I got involved with an American lawyer who has been in China for more than 20 years. His office is mostly staffed by Hong Kongers and dealing with the whole smoke-and-mirrors routine they have underway reminded me of being in Thailand. Total misrepresentation of who they are, what my contract would be, how many offices they have, etc., etc. I then realized that the ancestral homeland of most well-to-do Chinese in Thailand (the Teochu) is Swatow (Shantou), which is in Guangdong province near Hong Kong. Seemed to be cut from the same cloth.

I managed to extract myself from that and am back working with North Chinese. They seem to have a core level of ethics (and also a sense of cultural superiority). But again, this is at a highly evolved multicultural operation in the capital city. The experience elsewhere would likely be very different.

To one poster: I am not "making the best" of anything. I could return home tomorrow, and am thankful that isn't New Zealand. I am here because I want to be.

[thaihome]

where do most westeners choose to stay in china ie retired persons

I don't think many westerners do unless married and living with their spouse and child(ren). We know of several people/Westerners living in Qingdao* on the coast (opposite South Korea more or less) but I think it will depend which part of China the spouse is from.

Maybe also on Hainan (Sanya), a tropical island in the south.

* Qingdao has a German history (also from the breweries).

LaoPo

And that pretty well sums up the difference in Thailand and China. I can't imagine anyone (and never meet anyone) that would retire there unless married to a Chinese.

Lived in China for 2 years, both in big city and in rural area. I have no problem with the OP's comparisons to living in Beijing. Though it does sound like he is a bit naive and since there are no forums like this on China where one can criticize and moan to one heart content on living in China, he probably doesn’t really know much about life in China other then his own. I mean, really, Thailand’s government is more oppressive then China’s? Get real people.

TH

[doggie888888]

Worked in Shanghai for 10 years. Will I do it again? Yes, for the opportunities, the buzz, the hype, the pace, the constant changes...it really is one of the most happenning places in the world. Would I retire there? No way. I chose Thailand for a slower pace and a more relaxed lifestyle. There is no point comparing Thailand to China, two different countries with different priorities and challenges. Each has its own plusses and minuses...up to each of us to assess based on our own needs, whether for work or pleasure.

I am not even sure if they allow retirees into China...I don't recall a visa category for "retirees" or long term residents. But work permits are easy.

[ferd54]

I mean, really, Thailand’s government is more oppressive then China’s? Get real people.

TH

All I know is my personal experience, and in terms of feeling oppressed by any government:

* I don't have to check in every 90 days

* I don't have to be wary of drunk policemen carrying guns

* I have not been shaken down by any policeman or other scam artist

As well, I have not had to purchase a car for self-defense and have yet to see mangled bodies in the road. In my years in Thailand I was privileged to see about 20 such corpses in the street.

But to each their own. Glad you don't feel oppressed.

Edited August 31, 2009 by ferd54

[Marmelad]

I lived in Beijing and it certainly has it's pluses: the culture is no comparison to Thai culture- richer, more interesting and much much more interesting places to visit, not just go from one wat to another wat...Not as many prostitutes, and they are not in your face (if you want them, you can go to certain places and get them), it is possible to walk on the street and not to fall in the sewage whole or slip on a condom left from partying in Bed....no eyes burning smoke from the food stoles, no extreme heat, which makes you sick and makes it almost impossible to do anything outdoors (unless you lay lifeless on the beach), public transportation is far better, streets are much much cleaner, etc....

And I heard from several sources that they controlled the pollution now and it's actually much clearer than in many Thai cities.

[venturalaw]

I lived in Beijing and it certainly has it's pluses: the culture is no comparison to Thai culture- richer, more interesting and much much more interesting places to visit, not just go from one wat to another wat...Not as many prostitutes, and they are not in your face (if you want them, you can go to certain places and get them), it is possible to walk on the street and not to fall in the sewage whole or slip on a condom left from partying in Bed....no eyes burning smoke from the food stoles, no extreme heat, which makes you sick and makes it almost impossible to do anything outdoors (unless you lay lifeless on the beach), public transportation is far better, streets are much much cleaner, etc....

And I heard from several sources that they controlled the pollution now and it's actually much clearer than in many Thai cities.

Would you consider retiring in Beijing?

[thaihome]

I mean, really, Thailand’s government is more oppressive then China’s? Get real people.

TH

All I know is my personal experience, and in terms of feeling oppressed by any government:

* I don't have to check in every 90 days

* I don't have to be wary of drunk policemen carrying guns

* I have not been shaken down by any policeman or other scam artist

As well, I have not had to purchase a car for self-defense and have yet to see mangled bodies in the road. In my years in Thailand I was privileged to see about 20 such corpses in the street.

But to each their own. Glad you don't feel oppressed.

OK, if you say so.

TH

[IanForbes]

Offensive posts and replies have been deleted, Suggest keeping bigoted and derogatory comments to yourself.

I can never understand why people have to do that. The OP's topic is interesting, it relates to Thailand, it is concise and not derogatory, and it gives others a brief insight into the workings of another country. Even if someone should disagree with the OP's opinion there are many ways to state an opposing position without being derogatory.

[mooncake]

If you happen to be on the deathrole,....

Don't forget they use the single bullet on the head, instead of the lethal injection over here.

I also have heard they sell your organs after THAT as well.

Edited August 31, 2009 by mooncake

[steelepulse]

>>I can never understand why people have to do that. The OP's topic is interesting, it relates to Thailand, it is concise and not derogatory, and it gives others a brief insight into the workings of another country.

I agree as I think it's interesting to get a first hand account of how life is somewhere else compared to how it is here. I lived in Singapore for 5 years before I decided that 5 years was long enough there, but I had a great time while in Singapore.

[thaihome]

If you happen to be on the deathrole,....

Don't forget they use the single bullet on the head, instead of the lethal injection over here.

I also have heard they sell your organs after THAT as well.

They also make the family pay for the bullet.

Today, China stands alone in continuing the use of organs of executed prisoners for transplant surgery.”1

Nah, they aren't oppresive at all.

TH

[astral]

IMHO one small dog locked up in a small apartment, yapping away, can be worse than the ones in the Soi.......................

[Mobi]

Duplicate post

Edited August 31, 2009 by Mobi

[Mobi]

I find the OP's observations of life and the current state of infrastructure in China fascinating.

I can't help wondering what the same set of "pros and cons" would have been if the comparison had been made, say, 20 years ago, or even the early 90's.

At that time, Thailand was still at the forefront of South East Asian technology advancements, and still considered one of the "Asian Tigers".

Sadly the country seems to have stood still or gone backwards ever since, and most Asian countries, including Vietnam and certainly China have forged ahead. Even little Cambodia, one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world has a better education system, with more young people speaking passable English than they do here in Thailand.

So why is this?

Well, as bad as the communist system may appear to be to those lovers of western democracy, it's leaders seem to care more about the development of their country and the welfare of the people than successive "so called" democratic governments in Thailand, whose first priority is to line their own pockets to the detriment of the country's development, and certainly with scant regard for the welfare of the ordinary Thais.

I have no idea where it will all end, but I do fear for the future here.

[IanForbes]

If you need to fix a country in a hurry it's best done with a benevolant dictator. Unfortunately, most dictators stay on too long afterwards and power corrupts everything. China is doing what it needs to do with a runaway population increase, but it does infringe on the personal rights of citizens. The so called democracies in western worlds have their problems as well. No place is perfect and nothing fits everone's ideal.

[TaoNow]

I spent 15 months in Kunming during 2006/2007.

I lived alone in a modest apartment (5,000 baht a month equivalent) in a complex of 7-storey apartment buildings. I spoke no Mandarin or Yunnanese.

I commuted to the office by bus every day (5 baht flat fare). Bus service was excellent and orderly, but often crowded and much pushier than Bangkok at rush hour. Half the bus drivers were women. Taxis are plentiful and inexpensive, but drivers knew no English -- so you need to have your destination written down. Taxi drivers refuse tips and always gave complete change. Same for restaturants: no tipping is expected.

Behind the apartment building where I lived, vegetable patch farmers removed raw human sewage from the underground system to fertilize the vegetables. I ate at the office canteen (with Chinese government office workers) every day for lunch. I would have one to two episodes of acute diarrhea every week. Otherwise I was healthy throughout the 15 months.

Heavy dependence on electric-powered vehicles: vespas, mo-peds, and scooters. This reduced urban noise level, and the air seemed reasonably clean. However the large lake by the city is 80% dead, polluted by uncontrolled chemical dumping by suburban factories.

Very few if any private medical clinics (unlike Thailand). My Chinese co-workers explained that the Chinese would not trust a private clinic physician to be fully qualified (i.e., might be a charlatan). So there are only the large government facilities, where the Chinese know that the doctors and nurses are certified. But there are long waits.

Ubiquitous pirated movies and televsion serials, for an average of 25 baht per CD. But poor selection of English-language books, even near the Yunnan University campus.

My Chinese co-workers were very intellectually engaged. They were well-read and had animated political and social discussions at every lunch hour. The women in Kunming seemed quite assertive (based on body language and my observations of them interacting with the men at coffee shops, restaurants, etc). They are less gentle and graceful than the average Thai woman. People were not shocked by my presence (at the market, on the bus) even though I was the only farang in sight. But I was never approached by students or youth (or anyone else for that matter) who might want to practice English. They were not afraid of me; but did not seem to want to make contact.

The weather was outstanding: Kunming is called the City of Eternal Spring, and it truly was, year-round

With Mandarin, I would have had a much more diverse and in-depth experience (obviously). So, it is hard to compare with Thailand where I know the lingo.

But I think you can get an idea of some of the trade-offs from this and the other posts.

[thaihome]

...Well, as bad as the communist system may appear to be to those lovers of western democracy, it's leaders seem to care more about the development of their country and the welfare of the people than successive "so called" democratic governments in Thailand, whose first priority is to line their own pockets to the detriment of the country's development, and certainly with scant regard for the welfare of the ordinary Thais.

I have no idea where it will all end, but I do fear for the future here.

You are talking about Vietnam and Cambodia, right? Have you ever tried to do any real business in either place? I do agree the grass root corruption may be less, i.e. cops with their hands out, which may be why you say what you say, but at the top level these are some of the worst places in the world, only Africa is worse.

TH

Transparency International

2008 CORRUPTION PERCEPTIONS INDEX

rank country

47 Malaysia

72 China

80 Thailand

121 Viet Nam

141 Philippines

166 Cambodia

178 Myanmar

Edited August 31, 2009 by thaihome

[Mobi]

...Well, as bad as the communist system may appear to be to those lovers of western democracy, it's leaders seem to care more about the development of their country and the welfare of the people than successive "so called" democratic governments in Thailand, whose first priority is to line their own pockets to the detriment of the country's development, and certainly with scant regard for the welfare of the ordinary Thais.

I have no idea where it will all end, but I do fear for the future here.

You are talking about Vietnam and Cambodia, right? Have you ever tried to do any real business in either place? I do agree the grass root corruption may be less, i.e. cops with their hands out, which may be why you say what you say, but at the top level these are some of the worst places in the world, only Africa is worse.

TH

Transparency International

2008 CORRUPTION PERCEPTIONS INDEX

rank country

47 Malaysia

72 China

80 Thailand

121 Viet Nam

141 Philippines

166 Cambodia

178 Myanmar

I am talking about the development of these countries in the past 20 years - not specifically about which countries are the most corrupt. I mentioned Cambodia as a place where the population clearly speak more and better English than they do in Thailand, which is to Thailand's eternal shame, considering how poor and undeveloped that country is.

As for Vietnam, well no I haven't attempted to do business there, but I do know that a lot of major international companies have closed down their operations here and moved to Vietnam where they find the business climate far more to their liking.

I was simply trying to demonstrate that Thailand is standing still, while those around them are progressing - especially China, which has made enormous strides in the past 2 decades, by putting the welfare of the country and it's people first, rather than immersing their selfish, greedy snouts in the corruption trough and devoting all their energies to snapping and devouring those who seek to get a larger share than them

[Lancelot]

I mean, really, Thailand’s government is more oppressive then China’s? Get real people.

TH

All I know is my personal experience, and in terms of feeling oppressed by any government:

* I don't have to check in every 90 days

* I don't have to be wary of drunk policemen carrying guns

* I have not been shaken down by any policeman or other scam artist

As well, I have not had to purchase a car for self-defense and have yet to see mangled bodies in the road. In my years in Thailand I was privileged to see about 20 such corpses in the street.

But to each their own. Glad you don't feel oppressed.

Great info Ferd54

I've been to China a couple of times and I liked it but unlike your experience, I was there for a total of 50 days so my observations are more of a tourist.

I totally agree about the lack of police, I needed directions and it was near impossible to find any cops. I was told that there are public police phones for people in need of reporting a crime.

Yes, the Chinese are loud and they are AGRESSIVE when leaving public transport with every subway stop resulting in a free for all between those wishing to enter or exit, 555! The taxi drivers were extremely polite and professional, I noticed most wore white gloves while driving!

Beijing and Shanghai were full of spacious wide boulevards with uncluttered sidewalks. I don't remember having as much trouble crossing the street either.

FWIW, there are two ATM systems in China: one for domestic cards and one that accepts international cards. Pay attention and don't use your international card in at domestic branch

I didn't mind the cool weather either and for people that enjoy a change of seasons, China has that to offer as well.

Ive heard that western China has some funky little Nan like enclaves that are filling up with avant-guard chinese and foreigners. I don't know that from personal experience, just hear say and reading

China isn't Thailand and thats cool. Give me varity please

[thaihome]

I am talking about the development of these countries in the past 20 years - not specifically about which countries are the most corrupt. I mentioned Cambodia as a place where the population clearly speak more and better English than they do in Thailand, which is to Thailand's eternal shame, considering how poor and undeveloped that country is.

As for Vietnam, well no I haven't attempted to do business there, but I do know that a lot of major international companies have closed down their operations here and moved to Vietnam where they find the business climate far more to their liking.

I was simply trying to demonstrate that Thailand is standing still, while those around them are progressing - especially China, which has made enormous strides in the past 2 decades, by putting the welfare of the country and it's people first, rather than immersing their selfish, greedy snouts in the corruption trough and devoting all their energies to snapping and devouring those who seek to get a larger share than them

If you think the Chinese leaders have "by putting the welfare of the country and it's people first, rather than immersing their selfish, greedy snouts in the corruption trough and devoting all their energies to snapping and devouring those who seek to get a larger share than them" then all I can guess is you have no idea what has happened to China in the last 20 years and have ignored the reporting of it.

Yes indeed, the China has gone through some remarkable development, but it has been at the expense of most of the Chinese people not to their benefit. Do you realize that only 10% of the people have profited from the development and these are mostly the very leaders you think so highly of? There are over 100 million migrant workers living in abject poverty, exploited by these very leaders. The other billion people are still living a subsistence lifestyle, just like they have for 2,000 years. I strongly suggest you do some research on what is actually happening in China. It is a powder keg of dissatisfaction that could explode at anytime.

Vietnam. Yes it has experienced a very large expansion of its economy. This is the usual development curve. When you start at the bottom and have a cheap, unskilled labor force, the companies that exploit that move in very quickly with their sweatshops and semi-slave condition factories. These are the companies that have left Thailand and moved to Vietnam.

Standing still. So, even though Thailand has experienced a steady growth rate over the 20 years you mention, has gone from a labor intensive based economy to a hi-tech, skilled labor force, you think it is standing still. During this time, it has invested billions into infrastructure and the economy. Building many power plants, roads, refineries, modern factories that make it one of the world leaders in exports of computers, integrated circuit boards, electronic equipment, automobiles, and petro-chemicals. Major companies like Honda, Toyota, Yamaha, Western Digital, Panasonic, Dow Chemical, etc have invested billions in Thailand. Did you know it took 12 years to build a single oil refinery in Vietnam? 3 separate international oil companies bailed out due to corruption. During that same 12 years, Thailand built a 1,000 kilometers gas pipeline system to bring gas from the Gulf of Thailand (this was the 3rd pipeline, the first 2 being built in 80’s and 90’s), 2 gas fired power plants, 4 gas separation plants, 3 ethylene crackers and something like 6 major downstream plants. Virtually all of it, except 2 of the downstream plants was done by Thai owned companies.

I know you very much want your perception to be the truth, but the facts just don’t support you.

TH

[ferd54]

There are over 100 million migrant workers living in abject poverty... The other billion people are still living a subsistence lifestyle, just like they have for 2,000 years.

I'm unsure whether I should bother because this is so full of errors. There are 1.3 billion people in China; there could be up to 200 million migrant workers; migrant workers make more money than rural farmers; there are about 800 million poor farmers in China; people 2,000 years ago didn't have TVs, cellphones and cars.

Thailand has ... gone from a labor intensive based economy to a hi-tech, skilled labor force

Utter nonsense

[JR Texas]

I am talking about the development of these countries in the past 20 years - not specifically about which countries are the most corrupt. I mentioned Cambodia as a place where the population clearly speak more and better English than they do in Thailand, which is to Thailand's eternal shame, considering how poor and undeveloped that country is.

As for Vietnam, well no I haven't attempted to do business there, but I do know that a lot of major international companies have closed down their operations here and moved to Vietnam where they find the business climate far more to their liking.

I was simply trying to demonstrate that Thailand is standing still, while those around them are progressing - especially China, which has made enormous strides in the past 2 decades, by putting the welfare of the country and it's people first, rather than immersing their selfish, greedy snouts in the corruption trough and devoting all their energies to snapping and devouring those who seek to get a larger share than them

If you think the Chinese leaders have "by putting the welfare of the country and it's people first, rather than immersing their selfish, greedy snouts in the corruption trough and devoting all their energies to snapping and devouring those who seek to get a larger share than them" then all I can guess is you have no idea what has happened to China in the last 20 years and have ignored the reporting of it.

Yes indeed, the China has gone through some remarkable development, but it has been at the expense of most of the Chinese people not to their benefit. Do you realize that only 10% of the people have profited from the development and these are mostly the very leaders you think so highly of? There are over 100 million migrant workers living in abject poverty, exploited by these very leaders. The other billion people are still living a subsistence lifestyle, just like they have for 2,000 years. I strongly suggest you do some research on what is actually happening in China. It is a powder keg of dissatisfaction that could explode at anytime.

Vietnam. Yes it has experienced a very large expansion of its economy. This is the usual development curve. When you start at the bottom and have a cheap, unskilled labor force, the companies that exploit that move in very quickly with their sweatshops and semi-slave condition factories. These are the companies that have left Thailand and moved to Vietnam.

Standing still. So, even though Thailand has experienced a steady growth rate over the 20 years you mention, has gone from a labor intensive based economy to a hi-tech, skilled labor force, you think it is standing still. During this time, it has invested billions into infrastructure and the economy. Building many power plants, roads, refineries, modern factories that make it one of the world leaders in exports of computers, integrated circuit boards, electronic equipment, automobiles, and petro-chemicals. Major companies like Honda, Toyota, Yamaha, Western Digital, Panasonic, Dow Chemical, etc have invested billions in Thailand. Did you know it took 12 years to build a single oil refinery in Vietnam? 3 separate international oil companies bailed out due to corruption. During that same 12 years, Thailand built a 1,000 kilometers gas pipeline system to bring gas from the Gulf of Thailand (this was the 3rd pipeline, the first 2 being built in 80’s and 90’s), 2 gas fired power plants, 4 gas separation plants, 3 ethylene crackers and something like 6 major downstream plants. Virtually all of it, except 2 of the downstream plants was done by Thai owned companies.

I know you very much want your perception to be the truth, but the facts just don’t support you.

TH

I think you are having trouble separating Thai myth from fact..........China myth from fact.

Particularly over the past decade, Thailand has fallen behind its neighbors (including its giant neighbor) on many fronts (look at data on annual GDP growth rate).

Many large corporations are in Thailand on a small scale to maintain a presence in what was once a dynamic and growing economy......and are in China on a very large scale.

Many large corporations are passing by Thailand and pouring money into Vietnam and Cambodia and Malaysia, largely because of better workforces and business investment incentives (and more social stability) in those countries.

The only thing to say about corruption in Asia is that it is all over........seems to be the norm in Asia.

The middle class in China has skyrocketed (look at car sale figures in China.......a good proxy measure of wealth spreading)....present generations are experiencing opportunities their parents could only dream about.

But with over one billion people it is very hard to increase the standard of living for all (just think about the massive challenge they have).

Thailand is not just standing still.......it is walking backwards!

[Hawkup2000]

OP thank you for a very interesting and informative post.

[Mobi]

Well Thaihome, I'm not going to go into any great research to prove you wrong (or right).

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

I do read extensively, including the business press and other business media that covers Asia and I also invest in the Asian region so I am not completely blind to development in Thailand and neighboring co0untries.

I have lived here on and off for many years, and I know what I know and I know what I see every day in this country, which is truly going backwards.

Further, I suspect that within 2-3 decades, China will be the largest and most powerful economy in the world.

Yes, the leaders are probably every bit as heartless as their Thai cousins, but they have the sense to realise that development of the Chinese economy, with the full and friendly involvement of foreigners, can only be to their benefit.

To me, the sort of thing that typifies the difference between Thailand and China is the action taken by authorities in Bangkok over an illegal night club that caught fire and killed 67 people. Action: None - (no one as yet behind bars). A similar fire occurred in China, and those responsible were quickly arrested and jailed. There is often no hiding place in China for many who cause death through corruption. In Thailand the only people who end up in jail are "fall guys" whose families have been paid off.

And so on and so on.....

It is a sad indictment of what was once a charming, friendly, progressive nation which is now sinking in a mire of corruption and has developed a collective ego that reeks of arrogance and xenophobia.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Mobi

[Hawkup2000]

OP

Can you comment on stuff like western food, libraries, parks, exercise possibilities?

[thaihome]

There are over 100 million migrant workers living in abject poverty... The other billion people are still living a subsistence lifestyle, just like they have for 2,000 years.

I'm unsure whether I should bother because this is so full of errors. There are 1.3 billion people in China; there could be up to 200 million migrant workers; migrant workers make more money than rural farmers; there are about 800 million poor farmers in China; people 2,000 years ago didn't have TVs, cellphones and cars.

Thailand has ... gone from a labor intensive based economy to a hi-tech, skilled labor force

Utter nonsense

Perhaps you should read this

Migrant Workers in China

I have seen it first hand, it is not nice...

As far as Thailand's labor force, I will admit to overstating the situation , the change to a more skilled work force is far from complete and has a long way to go. There still is a very large part that works in agriculture and many of these seasonally migrate to Bangkok and the Eastern Seaboard for unskilled jobs. Nevertheless, there is a growing skilled labor force that works in the many factories that continue to be built in the Bangkok suburbs and the Eastern Seaboard.

Open your computer up and take a look at where the motherboard or hard drive was assembled, there is very good chance it will say Thailand (from components made in China), it certainly will not say Vietnam or Cambodia. When we moved to China and went to buy a TV and DVD player, there were 2 sections in the dept store, one was domestic made and one imported. Over half the imported items were made in Thailand. We bought a domestic TV which crapped out in less then 2 years; we still use the Thai made DVD player.

I am still waiting on facts that back up the assertion that Thailand is standing still or going backwards as far as development is concerned. I do know you can’t see the progress from a barstool on Sukhumvit or Beach Rd, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

TH

TH

[JR Texas]

OP

Can you comment on stuff like western food, libraries, parks, exercise possibilities?

About Thaihome.......I am guessing he/she is Thai.......so there is nothing that will convince him/her that Thailand is in trouble.

Yes, I can comment on stuff like Western food, etc., and I am sure the OP will chime in as well.

It depends on where you are located........pretty much the same as in Thailand. If you are in one of the major cities, you have all of the Western food offerings/establishments that you have in Thailand (plus outstanding Chinese food).

As an aside, you also have Carrefour and other similar places to buy Western food. Do you like tomatoes? In the north you have huge tomatoes that are delicious. Food.......again, China is way, way ahead of Thailand.

(For the OP.......it is always a good thing to eat with Chinese people.........let them know what you want, then have them order it.......if you like it, have them write it down in Chinese on a piece of paper so you can give it to "the cook" next time..........not all Chinese food is oily.)

Libraries: I can't speak to that except university libraries and most, as you would expect, are filled with books written in Chinese (there are English papers).

Parks: In Zhuhai, to take one example, you have a city that almost looks like one giant park (in the zone near the sea). Parks, parks, and more parks.........clean and beautiful w/ nice walking trails.

Exercise: Both indoor and outdoor are available in the big cities.........anything you can imagine they have.

You can also hike through the mountains in Zhuhai (where the mountains and ocean meet). I ride bikes there.......long trails for jogging. The Chinese love sports. There are also interesting martial arts of all kinds--very non violent to violent.

There are also movie theaters, but I think Thailand has China beat when it comes to movie theaters.

Just one more thing about Chinese people vs Thai people..........if you sit down with a group of Chinese people and tell them about a business idea that will make them rich, 99 out of 100 will take you seriously and take notes and ask questions.

If you do the same thing with Thai people, 99 out of 100 will ignore you.

I guess that is another way of saying that Chinese people are far more receptive to Western ideas...........I have never felt or experienced xenophobia in China. They truly seem to admire Westerners and want to learn as much from us as possible.

[thaihome]

...To me, the sort of thing that typifies the difference between Thailand and China is the action taken by authorities in Bangkok over an illegal night club that caught fire and killed 67 people. Action: None - (no one as yet behind bars). A similar fire occurred in China, and those responsible were quickly arrested and jailed. There is often no hiding place in China for many who cause death through corruption. In Thailand the only people who end up in jail are "fall guys" whose families have been paid off.

And so on and so on.....

It is a sad indictment of what was once a charming, friendly, progressive nation which is now sinking in a mire of corruption and has developed a collective ego that reeks of arrogance and xenophobia.

I agree that the night club fire is scandal and there is no excuse for how that is being handled.

To me what typifies the difference is how the Chinese mining industry treats the safety of the workers. Thousands are killed each year in China but all that is done is lip service to safety. No attempt is made to basically change the environment and people continue to die virtually every day. It is just not economical to change and the people that own the mines own the government regulators. In past, Thailand was not much different, but today, you could not get away this, certainly not a comparable scale.

TH

[thaihome]

OP

Can you comment on stuff like western food, libraries, parks, exercise possibilities?

About Thaihome.......I am guessing he/she is Thai.......so there is nothing that will convince him/her that Thailand is in trouble.

Yes, I can comment on stuff like Western food, etc., and I am sure the OP will chime in as well.

It depends on where you are located........pretty much the same as in Thailand. If you are in one of the major cities, you have all of the Western food offerings/establishments that you have in Thailand (plus outstanding Chinese food).

As an aside, you also have Carrefour and other similar places to buy Western food. Do you like tomatoes? In the north you have huge tomatoes that are delicious. Food.......again, China is way, way ahead of Thailand.

(For the OP.......it is always a good thing to eat with Chinese people.........let them know what you want, then have them order it.......if you like it, have them write it down in Chinese on a piece of paper so you can give it to "the cook" next time..........not all Chinese food is oily.)

Libraries: I can't speak to that except university libraries and most, as you would expect, are filled with books written in Chinese (there are English papers).

Parks: In Zhuhai, to take one example, you have a city that almost looks like one giant park (in the zone near the sea). Parks, parks, and more parks.........clean and beautiful w/ nice walking trails.

Exercise: Both indoor and outdoor are available in the big cities.........anything you can imagine they have.

You can also hike through the mountains in Zhuhai (where the mountains and ocean meet). I ride bikes there.......long trails for jogging. The Chinese love sports. There are also interesting martial arts of all kinds--very non violent to violent.

There are also movie theaters, but I think Thailand has China beat when it comes to movie theaters.

Just one more thing about Chinese people vs Thai people..........if you sit down with a group of Chinese people and tell them about a business idea that will make them rich, 99 out of 100 will take you seriously and take notes and ask questions.

If you do the same thing with Thai people, 99 out of 100 will ignore you.

I guess that is another way of saying that Chinese people are far more receptive to Western ideas...........I have never felt or experienced xenophobia in China. They truly seem to admire Westerners and want to learn as much from us as possible.

No, I am not Thai. I am a western expat working for a major multi national that does has done about a billion USD worth of business in Thailand over the past 15 years. I have worked in many Asian countries in the past 10 years. Since Thailand is where we have had a very good business, I have spent a couple of stints here.

Spent a couple golf weekends in Zhuhai, I agree it is a very nice place. But I wonder with all it has to offer, why are there not thousands of western retirees living there like there is in Thailand?

Your other generalities about Thailand only highlight what type of Thai people you associate with here. But it does answer the question why you stay here more then China.

TH

[harrry]

Any comments on Wheelchair access, disabled transport and atitudes to people with disabilities would be good.