Visa/work Permits For Freelancers!

[gs4492]

HI.

I have read though many posts on this forum but havent found an answer to this question.

I am a freelance website designer and i would like to move out to thailand in the very near future.

Now, from what i have gathered, in order to obtain a work permit i have to set myself up as a limited company and employ 4 thai staff etc. As a freelancer this is not really practical, as im sure you can understand.

So my first question is how likely am i to get caught should i choose not to obtain a WM?

What is the penalty? Im guessing it's probably a prison sentence but for how long? I assume ill also get deported. Will this mean I will not be allowed to live or work in Thailand again?

Does the same rule apply should I manage to get permanent residency in Thailand. If not, how easy is to get perminent residency?

What about neighbouring countries like cambodia? does anyone know anything about visa/work restrictions in these countries?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[niveknedwob]

Too many 'aspiring' website designers already trying, and failing, to make it here - if you haven't got a particular 'niche' audience (and by that I mean specialising in websites geared towards a particular industry/business sector with an inherent knowledge of those business sectors which will allow you to give 'added value' at the website development stage) then I would say don't bother trying to start a business along those lines.

I am only commenting on the 'freelance website designer' part !

[astral]

You would need to set up your own company to get a work permit

or get full time employment.

As the previous poster says there are already too many wannabe web designers.

You will be better off making lots of money at home, the coming for a holiday to enjoy Thailand.

See other threads about permanent residency.

[ericthai]

If you already have worked lined up and working on line then I think you might be able to make a living. If you are coming here to find work, too many people already doing this at very low rates, so I dont think you can make allot money here.

As for residency this is very difficult, you need 3 years visa extensions and then you still need allot of things like read and write thai, show how you are a positive asset to Thailand etc. plus the cost is high, last i heard it was around 300,000 baht with lawyer and government fees.

Thia law says you need a work permit for any type of work to be done. If you are working on the internet by law you need to have a work permit. If this is really low profile you might sneak by, penalty I cant recall the dollar amount, but you will be deported dont know if you go a on a list or not. You could apply for a 1 year visa from your home country and then do a visa run every 90 days that will make you legal for 1 year. To get a B-visa you need a letter from a Thai company, some consultants want complete company docs so best is to call the local thai consultant first and ask them what they need.

If you want to stay in Malaysia that is very simple. No hassles easy to get a 1 year visa. Dont know about Cambodia or Laos, Vietnam is difficult to get a 1 year visa, tourist visa is no problem.

[gs4492]

ok thanks but im not sure if my question was really understood.

niveknedwob and astra - I wasnt asking "how do i become a web designer?". I am experienced website designer working for UK based contractors.

Also, i wasnt asking "do i need a work permit to work as a freelancer?".

Essentially, what i was asking was about the penalty should i get caught.

My other question was about weather it is possible to obtain work permits for freelance work in some of the neighbouring countries such as Cambodia, laos etc?

ericthai - Thanks for your points. You also mentioned it was easy to get a 1 year visa in Malaysia. Would that also include work permits?

One more thing...

I read somewhere that it is possible to get 1 year visas if studying a language course. Is this correct and if so does anyone have any information about this? I would be looking for courses in Chiang Mai.

Thanks.

[ubonjoe]

From working alien act of 2008. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a58931-.html

Section 51. Any alien engaging in the work without permission shall be subject to an imprisonment of not exceeding 5 years or a fine from 2,000 baht to 100,000 baht, or both.

In the case the alien accused committing an offense under paragraph 1 agrees to return their country within the period of the investigation but not exceeding 30 days, the inquiry official may impose a fine and proceed with the return of such alien

Return means deportation and more than likely being blacklisted and not allowed to ever to enter the country again.

You need a work permit to do any kind of work.

You can study Thai and get an extension of stay. Latest report from one of the sponsors (yellow banner ad at top of this page) of this forum is that they now have their location in Chiang Mai open and can get extensions for one year now verses 90 days.

Edited September 2, 2009 by ubonjoe

[siam2007]

If you already have worked lined up and working on line then I think you might be able to make a living. If you are coming here to find work, too many people already doing this at very low rates, so I dont think you can make allot money here.

As for residency this is very difficult, you need 3 years visa extensions and then you still need allot of things like read and write thai, show how you are a positive asset to Thailand etc. plus the cost is high, last i heard it was around 300,000 baht with lawyer and government fees.

Thia law says you need a work permit for any type of work to be done. If you are working on the internet by law you need to have a work permit. If this is really low profile you might sneak by, penalty I cant recall the dollar amount, but you will be deported dont know if you go a on a list or not. You could apply for a 1 year visa from your home country and then do a visa run every 90 days that will make you legal for 1 year. To get a B-visa you need a letter from a Thai company, some consultants want complete company docs so best is to call the local thai consultant first and ask them what they need.

If you want to stay in Malaysia that is very simple. No hassles easy to get a 1 year visa.

1 year Visa in Malaysia ? for an under-50 year old NOT applying for the MM2H-program and NOT officially employed by a local company ?

now that is new to me........ any facts ?

[Time Traveller]

Why do you want to make your life difficult???

If (a) you advertise your business in Thailand AND ( someone decides to report you to labor department, THEN yes you will probably get caught.

Otherwise, if your business is entirely from home and contact to clients outside of Thailand, and don't advertise to people that your business is based in Thailand than your chance of anything happening is effectively zero. How would anyone - least of all the technically inept Dept of Labor - know?

A lot of people will say that your illegal blah blah and complain....whatever. The labor department is not going to waste time hunting down evidence to nail one guy that is a freelancer who works from home (while being in Thailand) for clients in UK. Personally I'd be more worried about the tax dept, than the labor dept that seem more content on rounding up groups of illegal workers.

On another question you asked, it's obvious you really just want to find a way to live in Thailand right?. I'm not sure why you thought of Cambodia or Lao as substitute countries they are really not like Thailand at all. Why anyone wanting to do any work via internet would want to live in those countries, as internet speed is ridiculously slow

[gs4492]

Thanks Time Traveller! Thats encouraging advise.

i have no intention of working for thai clients so thats not a problem.

I was certainly considering cambodia as an option since the cost of living is low and aquiring a business visa is much easier. I had no idea about the internet speeds. i was assuming they would at least have boradband.

Im still slightly confused about the visa issue. Of course it states in the 2008 working alien act that i cannot work without a permit. Thats pretty clear. Whats confusing is that when i called the Thai embassy in the uk (hull) and told them that i wanted to work in thailand as a freelancer, they told me it was not a problem providing i can provide evidence of my freelance work, ie company docs etc. They told me i could do this on a non-immigrant visa type B.

I then quoted...

"Section 51. Any alien engaging in the work without permission shall be subject to an imprisonment of not exceeding 5 years or a fine from 2,000 baht to 100,000 baht, or both".

They told me that as long as i had a business ( visa I would not get into trouble if caught working providing it was not for a prolonged period of time.

Do the embassy know what they are talking about? If not they really should!

[lopburi3]

It is not an Embassy and they provide suspect information about working in Thailand. Basically they are saying you will not have a problem if not caught in my reading.

Edited September 3, 2009 by lopburi3

[jazzbo]

A few weeks back there was a gent who did no-pay work at a muay thau gym and was concerned about a work permit. The very good advice he received was for him to join the gym as a member so no way he could be considered working.

So, as non-lawyerly advice, I would say take the 'B' visa from Hull which will require your exiting the Kingdom every 90 days. Using some of your non-Thai business, go to a Thai website developer and contract with them for a minimum number of hours -- not as employees but as contract services. Then, if anyone questions you, you are here to contract for the services of a Thai- based business to assist you on your non-Thai based website business... Indeed there is a large California based website developer that does most of its grunt work in LOS.

[chevyinasia]

Hi gs4492,

Similar questions are raised all the time. Here's a response I wrote some time back:

... I very pointedly spoke to immigration officers about being a resident non-immigrant earning an income from overseas. Every time, the answer was that they don't care (they actually used the words "don't care") as long as I was not being paid by a person or entity based in Thailand, nor was my work (as per the given definition) for the benefit of such. I have since met many other expats who work in a similar fashion (one of whom writes scripts for porn movies) who reported that they received very similar answers from immigration and the labour department.

It seems as far as they're concerned, we're bringing money into Thailand. The immigration officers seem to know pretty clearly what the policy is, even if the wording (in English) is ambiguous.

I realize this echoes the thrust of most of the responses, BUT I wanted to point out that the Immigration Department has been consistently unconcerned about income earned from overseas. There really is very little danger of imprisonment, I haven't heard of it happening -- just fine and deportation. If you cannot get a proper Non-Immigrant Visa (B or O), it is possible to make "Visa Runs" every two months to get back-to-back 60-day tourist visas. Theoretically there is no limit, but they are issued at the discretion of the Consulate/Embassy. Some farangs that I know have managed this for over two years now, surely there are some who have done so for longer. It seems like a bit of a hassle, though. If your Visa application is eventually denied, you could still get the 30-day (15-day if arriving overland) Tourist Visa-on-arrival and pack up your stuff and move on.

Since you don't seem to be picky about where you live, you might be better off looking into Cambodia or Malaysia.

[dkstoney]

Do you speak Thai? How will you drum up business? What recourse will you have if you submit your work and they decide not to pay you?

[jazzbo]

All your work, you say, is generated in the UK or elsewhere outside of Thailand. As I said above, you can give some minimal contracting work to an established Thai website shop which gives you the status and legal documents (invoices) as a contractor. Beyond that, the only real problem you would be likely to encounter is if you shoot your mouth off as to how much money you are making while in Thailand without any work permit or taxes paid, and someone who has a grudge to settle with you, fairly or unfairly, decides to turn you in... and get yourself the nifty 'B' visa from Hull.

[Sophon]

Hi gs4492,

Similar questions are raised all the time. Here's a response I wrote some time back:

... I very pointedly spoke to immigration officers about being a resident non-immigrant earning an income from overseas. Every time, the answer was that they don't care (they actually used the words "don't care") as long as I was not being paid by a person or entity based in Thailand, nor was my work (as per the given definition) for the benefit of such. I have since met many other expats who work in a similar fashion (one of whom writes scripts for porn movies) who reported that they received very similar answers from immigration and the labour department.

It seems as far as they're concerned, we're bringing money into Thailand. The immigration officers seem to know pretty clearly what the policy is, even if the wording (in English) is ambiguous.

I realize this echoes the thrust of most of the responses, BUT I wanted to point out that the Immigration Department has been consistently unconcerned about income earned from overseas. There really is very little danger of imprisonment, I haven't heard of it happening -- just fine and deportation. If you cannot get a proper Non-Immigrant Visa (B or O), it is possible to make "Visa Runs" every two months to get back-to-back 60-day tourist visas. Theoretically there is no limit, but they are issued at the discretion of the Consulate/Embassy. Some farangs that I know have managed this for over two years now, surely there are some who have done so for longer. It seems like a bit of a hassle, though. If your Visa application is eventually denied, you could still get the 30-day (15-day if arriving overland) Tourist Visa-on-arrival and pack up your stuff and move on.

Since you don't seem to be picky about where you live, you might be better off looking into Cambodia or Malaysia.

The Immigration department is not responsible for work permits so they are not the correct people to ask about this.

Sophon

[BroadBlast]

Hi gs4492,

Similar questions are raised all the time. Here's a response I wrote some time back:

... I very pointedly spoke to immigration officers about being a resident non-immigrant earning an income from overseas. Every time, the answer was that they don't care (they actually used the words "don't care") as long as I was not being paid by a person or entity based in Thailand, nor was my work (as per the given definition) for the benefit of such. I have since met many other expats who work in a similar fashion (one of whom writes scripts for porn movies) who reported that they received very similar answers from immigration and the labour department.

It seems as far as they're concerned, we're bringing money into Thailand. The immigration officers seem to know pretty clearly what the policy is, even if the wording (in English) is ambiguous.

I realize this echoes the thrust of most of the responses, BUT I wanted to point out that the Immigration Department has been consistently unconcerned about income earned from overseas. There really is very little danger of imprisonment, I haven't heard of it happening -- just fine and deportation. If you cannot get a proper Non-Immigrant Visa (B or O), it is possible to make "Visa Runs" every two months to get back-to-back 60-day tourist visas. Theoretically there is no limit, but they are issued at the discretion of the Consulate/Embassy. Some farangs that I know have managed this for over two years now, surely there are some who have done so for longer. It seems like a bit of a hassle, though. If your Visa application is eventually denied, you could still get the 30-day (15-day if arriving overland) Tourist Visa-on-arrival and pack up your stuff and move on.

Since you don't seem to be picky about where you live, you might be better off looking into Cambodia or Malaysia.

The Immigration department is not responsible for work permits so they are not the correct people to ask about this.

Sophon

The point is still valid.

That is... if you are bringing money in from overseas you are welcome

if you are taking work from thais and exporting your savings to your 20 family members overseas then you are not welcome.

The laws are set up to protect thais from loosing their jobs to immigrant workers. If you are bringing foreign currency in by residing here and working for foreign companies, then you are benefiting, not exploiting the kingdom. Hence, for the most part you are not looked at as a burden on the country, and ignored.

[clinique]

Thanks Time Traveller! Thats encouraging advise.

i have no intention of working for thai clients so thats not a problem.

I was certainly considering cambodia as an option since the cost of living is low and aquiring a business visa is much easier. I had no idea about the internet speeds. i was assuming they would at least have boradband.

Im still slightly confused about the visa issue. Of course it states in the 2008 working alien act that i cannot work without a permit. Thats pretty clear. Whats confusing is that when i called the Thai embassy in the uk (hull) and told them that i wanted to work in thailand as a freelancer, they told me it was not a problem providing i can provide evidence of my freelance work, ie company docs etc. They told me i could do this on a non-immigrant visa type B.

I then quoted...

"Section 51. Any alien engaging in the work without permission shall be subject to an imprisonment of not exceeding 5 years or a fine from 2,000 baht to 100,000 baht, or both".

They told me that as long as i had a business ( visa I would not get into trouble if caught working providing it was not for a prolonged period of time.

Do the embassy know what they are talking about? If not they really should!

in short NO.

The visa does not allow you to work.

You must have a work permit. for ANY kind of work.

Yes you may sneek thru, BUT if you get caught result is the same..

[on-on]

There are a lot of people on TV that like to quote sensational scenarios to sound scary and authoritative, but there is some good advice here between various hardline replies. The truth is what a couple of guys above said. If all your income comes from abroad and you're not advertising or working in Thailand or hiring people or otherwise obviously conducting business then nothing is going to happen to you. Someone will say that's not true because the law says X or Y, but the reality is that they don't run around looking for farangs with no visible ties to the Thai economy to bust, they go after people who are visibly tied to the Thai economy (advertising/working locally, have a Non-Imm B visa tied to a company with lots of other Non-Imm B visas on record, etc) or after those who somehow make enough noise about what they're doing that they warrant looking into (whether that's irking some Thai national somehow by shooting your mouth off or engaging in criminal activity or whatever). Basically you don't need to worry about any of that given your situation. I work in online marketing (which isn't the same thing, but is similar in process to what you do), I'm here legally under a work permit with a capitalized company now, but let's say that I'm familiar with the situation you're describing as are many people I know and nothing happens. Were these people lucky? No, they are simply not a concern of any type for the Thai government. Of course it helps to live in areas populated by many other foreigners so that you blend in. I imagine if you go live in Nakhon Sawan for several years on Non-Imm B visas there's a higher chance of getting noticed, but I doubt it matters much. About the only time you'll run into any scrutiny is crossing borders when they see your year's worth of entry and exit stamps and ask, "Do you have a work permit yet? Please apply your work permit soon you get there." You could possibly get busted at that point, yes, but I have never even heard of it because immigration doesn't reinforce labor without some impetus at immigration gateways. Also because you can legitimately be in The Kingdom on a Non-Imm B for a variety of reasons that would not lead to a work permit. Of course if you get in some kind of trouble, like I said, then they're definitely going to notice things. So don't rob anyone, get in fights, crash a rented moto into a car while drunk or generally behave poorly.

All that being said, the other points above about whether such a situation is tenable are valid. If you plan to move to normalized employment then it's pretty much tenable, but if you plan to try and exist indefinitely it's a little dicier. It is not at all unusual for multiple Non-Imm B visas to be issued consecutively for very long periods of time and I've seen it in many, many cases, but life becomes much harder without proper immigration affairs in order and there's always that chance that at the end of your visa you're not going to get the next one. It happens and it's no way to live. Do you want to have to go from bank branch to branch looking for the one that will open an account without a work permit? Same for internet service, electricity, postpaid phone service (if you want it) and many other things. You can get around all of this, but life's a lot easier if you can live within the system.

My advice would be, that if you're really a professional at it, you come here, network around and find an arrangement with someone. There are a lot of crap "web designers" running around tossing up weakly skinned Joomla clones, but if you've got skills that extend beyond that, particularly in any of the major online marketing fields, then now is a cherry time to be looking for a job here. Thailand's really only just discovered online marketing in a real way and you're seeing job listings popping up everywhere in the field (not to mention plenty of jobs that aren't listed). The real key, though, I find is that people want to hire someone with an established reputation here of some kind and someone that sounds like they're settled down a bit. Employers of stable businesses generally aren't interested in working with the party crowd and people who sound like they might get tired of it all and chuck it in tomorrow, so if you've been here for a while that will help you find some kind of comfortable arrangement much more easily I expect. jazzbo's suggestion was helpful in that regard. Basically, use the Non-Imm B for one of its valid uses - come here and prospect for new business. If you happen to be taking care of offshore business back home via the internet while you're doing that then who's the wiser? They really don't care about that except as an excuse to bust you for some other problem. You're pretty much staying within the spirit, if not the exacting, anal letter of the law anyway.

If they were running around trying to bust farangs who are here working illegally they'd probably start with half the bar owners in every beachfront locale in the country, so you'll be down the list Cue the hellfire and brimstone brigade with lots of MIGHTs and BUTs and IFs and nightmare scenarios.